I suggested this in a thread before, but I suggested that each team's "red zone" area, where they're safe but the enemy can't travel, should be marked as a "blue zone". While in the blue (or yellow) zone, you're relatively safe, since enemies have to (mostly) keep their distance, but you're also unable to earn WPs OR kills. Obviously, you can still KILL from there, but the game doesn't count those kills, so you can't pad your K/D by redlining yourself.

People firing INTO this area should still be rewarded normally, because getting that close to the enemy's red zone should be a difficult task in the first place.

Was thinking about this after I'd posted, and realised that letting a team farm points from spawn-camping their opponents was a stupid suggestion.

But the reason I came up with it was because I didn't think it was any more fair to punish a team for winning. Still trying to come up with a way to balance out the two sides...

This is building on a suggestion from another thread in this forum (which I've failed to relocate at the moment), however it's inspired by multiple feedback threads I've read here as well as in game experience.

The Red Zone differs from map to map, game type to game type, side you're spawned in on, and even if you're flying or on the ground. There are useful game purposes for these differences (mostly to hinder a complete 'redline') which makes suggestions for other protective methods (adding buildings, shield bubbles, impassible terrain, etc) less functional.

There is however a clear problem with the Red Zone in its current context, and it's not isolated to a single spawn or map.
Three classic symptoms of this problem that, by now, we've likely all encountered are;

• LAV repair farming (stopped by hotfix, to the detriment of legit LogiBros game wide)
• HAV Sniping
• Infantry Sniping

These have been the bane of more than one tester in game and far from be a "if my back's against the wall I'll do it" maneuver they've become a game opening tactic in many cases.

There are other problems with the current Red Zone as well. It is in place to provide a measure of protection for teams to regroup and push out of, but it is frequently bombarded via HAVs, LAVs, Forge Guns, Swarms, Precision Strikes, Sniper fire and Dropships. Taking fire so intense and prolonged that all of its installations are destroyed even the ground spawn CRU which is generally set far back in some degree of cover.

So, not only is the Red Zone being exploited by some, it is also failing largely to achieve it's primary purpose.

Enter the Yellow Zone. The Yellow Zone will be a second area applied to all areas that are Red Zone for either team (and without any exceptions based on embarking Dropships et al).
The effect; All installations, vehicles, deployable gear, actions, and Mercs (in short everything) within the Yellow Zone cannot earn or be a source of War Points.

This would end all Red Zone farming, be that exploits like "LAV bumper cars", or sniping (in or out of tanks). It would also remove the incentive to completely "redline" an opposing team (since nothing you're doing would give you SP or ISK).

A few notes:

• This suggestion is intended for High Sec matches and may not be appropriate for for Faction Warfare, Null Sec, Corp Battles, or Tournaments.
• Including the Yellow Zone in Beta Testing provides the oppertunity to get direct data regarding how broadly or narrowly (everywhere vs High Sec only) it should be applied and whether the lack of rewards triggered by the Yellow Zone is sufficient deterrent to the problems in question.

I'd like to close by thanking the OPs of all related feedback threads, if I could find all your names and threads I'd link them here for the credit they deserve.

Cheers,
Cross

Honestly, i like the idea of force fielded area better. Some sort of installation that would be added around the starting CRU of every team. This installation would create a force field of say a 100m radius. No shots would enter\get out of this. Everything coming out of it couldnt get back in. No WP could be earned inside it (avoid exploit).

1) It would make very smaller "red zone" avoiding staying in a "safe" area and sniping\spamming the map
2) It would finally give a justification for those safe areas. At the moment, nothing explains this red zone and clones dying in it after a few seconds......
3) This force field installation would probably be an interesting player directed installation in the future.

I agree that is a short fall, and honestly even the removal of the war points suggested in the OP is a somewhat imperfect solution in that it's something of a violation to the setting (clearly a mechanic being enforced rather than an intuitive part of the world playing out).

Honestly, i like the idea of force fielded area better. Some sort of installation that would be added around the starting CRU of every team. This installation would create a force field of say a 100m radius. No shots would enter\get out of this. Everything coming out of it couldnt get back in. No WP could be earned inside it (avoid exploit).

1) It would make very smaller "red zone" avoiding staying in a "safe" area and sniping\spamming the map
2) It would finally give a justification for those safe areas. At the moment, nothing explains this red zone and clones dying in it after a few seconds......
3) This force field installation would probably be an interesting player directed installation in the future.

And this part of your post gave me another idea.

Make the deployment zone into a deployment zone instead of part of the battlefield.

When you spawn in your deployment area/yellow zone, it's a yellow zone, in which your enemies get no kill credit or WP for killing you, and you get nothing for killing them. From the time you first spawn, there's a countdown timer that starts at 1:30. After spawning, you have a minute and a half before the deployment area becomes a redzone. At that point, you get the redone timer on top of the yellow zone timer, but once it becomes a redzone, you become a valid target, and so do enemies.

Why? Because the HighSec contract specifically instructs you to enter battle promptly. This fits as being the same reason for the otherwise totally arbitrary time limit that kicks you out of the battle for not spawning. You have to enter battle within a reasonable timeframe. That means you have to spawn quickly, AND it means you have to head for the designated battlefield after doing so.

I like it

There are a couple of aspects which we'll have to figure out how to address but I think this is really on the right track.

First issue would be deploying into a redzone (solved if people aren't added to matches already in progress, which I think is a good idea on it's own so I'm going to move on).

Second is a question of map layout, would the new yellow --> red zone cover the current deployment area, be an addition do it, etc If an addition where in relation to the current deployment (or maybe just make that a map by map call?). If placed over the current area what about the instillation already present? (wouldn't they be destroyed once it turns red? and if not what use do they serve?).

Third would be the issue of getting fully redline camped, if your deployment zone becomes dangerous ground after the start of the map that'll be a hard day indeed.

Unless of course I miss read and what you mean is that there would be a countdown timer to turn from yellow to read for each Merc upon each spawn in. If that's what you meant then disregard questions 2 & 3 because in essence they'd no longer apply. (Second could just have a slight alteration in placement of any active installations like blasters so they could still be used once "yellow" expires and third issue simply wouldn't apply).


I think you've really hit on something here, this could address the problems we're encountering in the present system. Add a persistent "yellow" layer around the edge of the map where the red zone is constant (as per the OP) to avoid map edge red line sniping and it seems to cover all our bases.
The other great thing about the idea you propose is that a timer is easily adjustable even via hotfix so honing balance would be much more readily accomplished and the timer could be adjusted to properly account for the unique features of each match and map rather than trying to make a "one size fits all" iteration.

Cheers,
Cross

I was meaning it for each individual on spawn, not as a map-wide timer at the beginning of the match. And that addresses ALL the questions, not just the second and third.

1. You don't deploy into a redzone. Just like you can't do that now. You deploy into a yellow zone. When you spawn there, EVERY time you spawn there, you get the yellow zone timer giving you a minute and a half before the redzone timer kicks in.

2. That would have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. On Manus Peak, for example, I think bringing the yellow zone further down the hill would help, so people have to come further forward before they're safe and able to collect WP and kills.

3. The yellow zone will be a safe area for about 2 minutes if you include the redzone timer, giving you time to see where the enemy is, what they're doing, and find a way around them.

Makes babysitting not only boring, but fruitless? No thank you. I'd prefer a slaughter rule and abandonment of the redline.

Elaborate and define? (also why is this, in your view, not an appropriate mechanic for the High Sec starter areas of D514?)

Slaughter rule and no redline would be great for Nullsec, and MAYBE LowSec, but not so good in HighSec.

A slaughter rule is where the mission ends when one side has obviously already lost. For Skirmish, this would mean that the mission would end if the other team held all the Null Cannons for a certain period, because that shows your team is being spawn-camped and can't break out. In Ambush, a similar mechanic could be introduced where your team will lose if they have a certain amount of consecutive deaths without any kills. Basically, this acts as a way to cut an obvious failure short and potentially save both sides a lot of money by allowing the losers to just run away when it becomes clear they can't win.

I was meaning it for each individual on spawn, not as a map-wide timer at the beginning of the match. And that addresses ALL the questions, not just the second and third.

1. You don't deploy into a redzone. Just like you can't do that now. You deploy into a yellow zone. When you spawn there, EVERY time you spawn there, you get the yellow zone timer giving you a minute and a half before the redzone timer kicks in.

2. That would have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. On Manus Peak, for example, I think bringing the yellow zone further down the hill would help, so people have to come further forward before they're safe and able to collect WP and kills.

3. The yellow zone will be a safe area for about 2 minutes if you include the redzone timer, giving you time to see where the enemy is, what they're doing, and find a way around them.

As I understand it the after match awards of both Skill Points and ISK are derived stats drawn form primarily (tho not exclusively) War Points earned. Assuming this is in fact the case than the removal of War Points for any action taken from/against the Yellow Zone would remove all incentive for 'redlining' aside from pure grief play which I don't think there's any way to actually eliminate but I see on reason to reward either.

You do make an interesting point regarding the "spawn to certain death" aspect. On the one hand that's not really very different from how things are now when redlined but the current method isn't optimal for High Sec either.

I think perhaps part of the solution to this is physical map features. If there were a spawn area which would not kill you no matter how long you stay there but which would also provide zero options for aggressive action (for example a small structure with only one side open facing away from the battlefield.

This is a idea first draft of the top of my head so likely needs refinement but perhaps map design can address this problem.

As it stands we need something which will end
A) Spawn camping the starting areas (aka 'redlining')
B) Sniping/Tank sniping from within the protection of the red zone
C) Instant, or near instant, death on spawn


I still feel like the removal of rewards for actions taking into or from within the redzone is a key component, but clearly more refinement is needed to address the whole scope of the issue.

Cheers,
Cross

I don't argue that the current system is set up right, just that forcing people out of the redzone into certain death is wrong. You would basically be replacing one problem for another.

What would my solution to this issue be? Simple. Use your yellow line idea for the bases, as well as the loss of gain from farming redlined people in their bases and bases shooting out, however instead of forcing people out, make the MCC's move around the edges of the field. Whenever the MCC crosses over a base it fires on enemies who aren't in cover (obviously the base spawn points would have to be revamped to provide cover without allowing sniping out of the base to be too easy), when it crosses it's home base it fires on any enemies too near it, and if it gets too close to an enemy on the field, it fires on them. This last bit will prevent snipers and forge gunners from sitting on the edges of the map spamming death from the same spot all match. They will have to move around a lot more. Having the MCC's move around the map would also provide teams the ability to not spawn in a static location that can be easily camped and farmed. This would also make battles a lot more frantic and perhaps even more difficult for both sides since the "one side has an advantage on one side of the map" strategies would all go out the window.

I think this solution shows promise, I do wondering about the coding aspects but at a guess it doesn't seem like a huge increase on client load (I am uncertain). I really like the element of flux it would provide to the battle while still being patterned enough to allow for tactical play/adaptation.

Also having something like this involved would provide a greater possibility for balanced yet asymmetric map creation and I would quite thoroughly enjoy that.

How would you handle the MCC as it passes over the opposing base? Also what sort of shots would these be, are we talking precision strikes from the MCC or a different form of fire unique to it's mobile sweep/suppression role?

One final thought, if this were included, and the upcoming commander role were able to effect rate of orbit (perhaps even having a mechanic where the opposing MCC were made primary but at the expense of no ground fire during that time) that could add some interesting nuance to the mechanic even outside of the quickmatch play in High Sec.

I'll think more about this idea but on first blush I'm quite liking it.
Cheers,
Cross

Ah, a response at long last.

The weapons I was thinking for the MCCs were first a weak tracking, slower ROF blaster with more damage than a large blaster turret. Weak tracking so that if you keep moving quickly you are likely to avoid getting hit directly. I was thinking around 250-300hp per shot with half or a quarter the ROF of a breach AR. Overheats every 20 seconds, 12-15 second cooldown.

The second weapon would be like a large missile turret, but fire a larger volley less accurately and with a larger gap between volleys. Kind of sweeping a carpet of missiles randomly across a patch of ground. I'm thinking 12 or 15 missiles per volley with a 10 or 15 second down time.

Both teams would have to deal with the opposing team's MCC, so it gives no unfair advantage to anyone. The weapons are definitely formidable and something you want to avoid, but are not ungody death traps that are impossible to avoid

As for the actual movement speed of the whole ship, I would say a medium to fast walking speed. Tank top speed when moving at top speed.

As the MCC crosses over the opposing base it fires on any enemies out in the open. This adds incentive to people in the base to clear out before the enemy MCC draws too near. Put the spawn locations behind or under sufficient cover too keep the MCC from spawn killing people. If the enemy MCC is too close to your base, it would be safer to spawn on your own MCC, otherwise you wait until it passes and then leave your base.

When the allied MCC is near your base it fires on all enemies and enemy vehicles within a certain distance of your redline. If enough of the enemy nears your redline the MCC speeds up it's circuit around the field and slows near the allied base to provide cover fire so you can leave the base.

The MCC should also fire on any air vehicles that come within a certain range of it's cannons. This will help prevent any future "win button" turrets from camping people as they spawn in.

And that dear friend is how to end redlining.

Makes babysitting not only boring, but fruitless? No thank you. I'd prefer a slaughter rule and abandonment of the redline.

@Fivetimes, I'll be responding in order.

That solution to LAV farming has been discussed in a few other threads and the point was rightly raised that such a 'fix' doesn't equally solve the problem for all players as there is no way to determin where the damaged is sourced before repairing thus in effect making the current "no WP for Reppers" hotfix into a permanent thing. That is akin to saying "if someone you kill has taken fall damage you get less than 50 WP for the kill" and is quite simply unacceptable. Any fix to Repair Tool related issues needs to NOT rely on singling out the Repair Tool and crippling how/when it is effective. Any solution that fails to be implemented at the macro game level, rather than the micro gear level will almost certainly bias the game award from proper Logi awards thus creating a fundamental imbalance (just as exists now within CODEX). The farming has to stay gone, no question there but limits on the Repair Tool are simply not the correct answer.

CCP has stated that non-hit scan mechanics are not even on the table due to a number of factors and some of the weapons (railguns for example) wouldn't really support a scatter effect very well, beyond which limiting range reduced their value as an AV asset thus eliminating their role on the field (remember fighters and bombers are still in the pipe so effective long range AV is still needed). I would support some sort of limited ammo effect but I'm dubious as to whether that would solve the problem, after all infantry snipers have limited ammo and they still participate in an identical problematic activity.

What are you even talking about? "Micro gear"? "Macro game level"? These don't mean anything to me.

Anyway, there isn't anything to discuss here as this issue has been easily fixed in other games through differentiating non-enemy damage from enemy damage. Any issues you have with this solution are not really relevant, as they've clearly been addressed by other game systems, and thus you can just go and see what Planetside 2 or whatever did to solve the problem rather than broaching the issue here.

They said that having all weapons have calculated projectiles isn't possible. That's fine, I'm not suggesting assault rifles be non-hit scan. But you're obviously incorrect in saying that non-hit scan weapons aren't on the table, as that's exactly how the plasma cannon is going to work, how swarm launchers work currently, and so on. There are already weapons which are not hit scan.

I am not interested in discussing how railguns work in fictional settings and don't find it relevant to anything we've been discussing here. Nothing in Dust in real, so talking about how it does or doesn't work is moot.

but again changing snipers doesn't address the fundamental issue of this thread. If the redzone is the safest place to snip then snipers will use it regardless of how hard it is to be a sniper.
The point is not "snipers are too good from the redline" the point is "fighting from inside the redline imbalances the fundamental 'Risk vs Reward' mechanic" as such fighting inside the redline needs to go.

Overall the last line of my above paragraph is the point, fighting inside the redline needs to go and no amount of tweaks to other aspects of the game will address the fundamental damage to the Risk vs Reward mechanic.
As long as Mercs are able to use the redzone to amass WP/SP/ISK the problem will remain other changes will only alter the rate of gain, but if they're game wide that will result in a net effect of zero in regards to providing a redress for these problems. I also must question how thoroughly you've read the proposal because it would simply effect anyone within the Yellow Zone or targeting anything within the Yellow Zone. As such the range of the weapon being used it completely irrelevant to it's function.

I'm a bit confused as to why you only responded to half my post, but in any even my response to you follows.

Microcosm verses Macrocosm. Sorry if that was unclear. Simply put don't do lots of tweaks to gear in an attempt to solve what is fundamentally a map issue.

If you have specific solutions that you believe can be cross applied in an effective way to D514, do feel free to post them.
Until such a time however those other games aren't actually part of the conversation since not everyone has played them nor is it reasonable to expect for everyone to do so. Point out the specific ideas you're talking about and how they'd address this issue within Dust and we'll go from there.

I'm unclear as to what you're talking about here, firstly I wasn't trying to have a conversation about real world physics v fictional physics or anything of the kind. Secondly the hitscan references are specific to infantry guns as far as I'm aware and the reference was made within that context I didn't see any reason to single out things like the mass driver, swarm launcher, or grenades because it seemed quite clear they weren't part of this context, apparently I was in error in that regard.
As such I'll put this another way, the solution to redline sniping issues isn't one of altering the various vehicle/infantry weapons used within some form of sniping context, it's a map issue and needs to be addressed as such

I also don't like this idea, as it takes several issues that are legitimate issues, and attempts to "fix" them with a blanket solution which really wouldn't fix them at all.

First, LAV repairing. This is an incredibly easy fix and is something you can see addressed successfully in any number of games, including Planetside 2 most recently. Simply make any non-enemy damage to friendly targets award no points for repairing. It's as simple as that.

HAV sniping from atop some vantage point is another legitimate issue, but once again, the issue is that HAVs can just sit someplace and spam fire down all day. As with sniping, if this were changed you'd still have HAVs sniping ad nauseam from safe locations, only rather than being behind a redline, they'd be right next to it. Just shooting from the hip, but two potential solutions to this would include a certain degree of scattering for HAV weapons that makes them less reliable vs. infantry at longer ranges, and for vehicles to have limited ammunition (with some mechanic to support vehicle resupplies, akin to infantry resupply). This is just a very off-handed idea about this issue though and not something I'd necessarily hang my hat on. I'd simply say that there are other solutions to this issue which would have a real effect on the issue of tanks just parking themselves someplace far off and spamming fire down someplace all game.

Sniping from behind the redline similarly avoids entirely the issue with sniping, in that you can easily hit and kill people with a sniper rifle from the max range of that rifle. Sniping, something I've written about myself at length, is a major problem-area with this game. It needs many changes to it in order to bring it in-line with other forms of infantry combat. One side-effect of some of the changes I've proposed -- that is, bullet travel time, scope sway, and bullet drop over time -- is that sniping from a far-off distance like the redline is in many games relative to the fighting would be much more difficult. Sniping from closer-in, where the effects of such changes would be minimized, would be something snipers would be more inclined to do. In any case, the issue here is with sniping in general.

Overall I find this change totally unnecessary. I think magically making kills not count because you're in a certain area is a very, very clumsy way to address legitimate issues with the game. I don't believe you can solve these problems with a brute-force tactic like the "yellow zone". While snipers in the redline is frustrating, as are HAVs, they will be mostly unaffected by such a change, unless the change is so egregious that it forces people right into AR range before they can get credit for kills.

Use your yellow line idea for the bases, as well as the loss of gain from farming redlined people in their bases and bases shooting out, however instead of forcing people out, make the MCC's move around the edges of the field. Whenever the MCC crosses over a base it fires on enemies who aren't in cover (obviously the base spawn points would have to be revamped to provide cover without allowing sniping out of the base to be too easy), when it crosses it's home base it fires on any enemies too near it, and if it gets too close to an enemy on the field, it fires on them.

This last bit will prevent snipers and forge gunners from sitting on the edges of the map spamming death from the same spot all match. They will have to move around a lot more.

Having the MCC's move around the map would also provide teams the ability to not spawn in a static location that can be easily camped and farmed.

This would also make battles a lot more frantic and perhaps even more difficult for both sides since the "one side has an advantage on one side of the map" strategies would all go out the window.

The solution of redline sniping is absolutely to change the weapons used in this sense, as the problem isn't redline sniping, it's the ability for certain weapons/vehicles to fire, at extreme ranges, essentially indefinitely, with very limited recourse available for the other team.

,,

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Mistaken post (post with actual content in process)