I think this solution shows promise, I do wondering about the coding aspects but at a guess it doesn't seem like a huge increase on client load (I am uncertain). I really like the element of flux it would provide to the battle while still being patterned enough to allow for tactical play/adaptation.

Also having something like this involved would provide a greater possibility for balanced yet asymmetric map creation and I would quite thoroughly enjoy that.

How would you handle the MCC as it passes over the opposing base? Also what sort of shots would these be, are we talking precision strikes from the MCC or a different form of fire unique to it's mobile sweep/suppression role?

One final thought, if this were included, and the upcoming commander role were able to effect rate of orbit (perhaps even having a mechanic where the opposing MCC were made primary but at the expense of no ground fire during that time) that could add some interesting nuance to the mechanic even outside of the quickmatch play in High Sec.

I'll think more about this idea but on first blush I'm quite liking it.
Cheers,
Cross

Ah, a response at long last.

The weapons I was thinking for the MCCs were first a weak tracking, slower ROF blaster with more damage than a large blaster turret. Weak tracking so that if you keep moving quickly you are likely to avoid getting hit directly. I was thinking around 250-300hp per shot with half or a quarter the ROF of a breach AR. Overheats every 20 seconds, 12-15 second cooldown.

The second weapon would be like a large missile turret, but fire a larger volley less accurately and with a larger gap between volleys. Kind of sweeping a carpet of missiles randomly across a patch of ground. I'm thinking 12 or 15 missiles per volley with a 10 or 15 second down time.

Both teams would have to deal with the opposing team's MCC, so it gives no unfair advantage to anyone. The weapons are definitely formidable and something you want to avoid, but are not ungody death traps that are impossible to avoid

As for the actual movement speed of the whole ship, I would say a medium to fast walking speed. Tank top speed when moving at top speed.

As the MCC crosses over the opposing base it fires on any enemies out in the open. This adds incentive to people in the base to clear out before the enemy MCC draws too near. Put the spawn locations behind or under sufficient cover too keep the MCC from spawn killing people. If the enemy MCC is too close to your base, it would be safer to spawn on your own MCC, otherwise you wait until it passes and then leave your base.

When the allied MCC is near your base it fires on all enemies and enemy vehicles within a certain distance of your redline. If enough of the enemy nears your redline the MCC speeds up it's circuit around the field and slows near the allied base to provide cover fire so you can leave the base.

The MCC should also fire on any air vehicles that come within a certain range of it's cannons. This will help prevent any future "win button" turrets from camping people as they spawn in.

And that dear friend is how to end redlining.

Makes babysitting not only boring, but fruitless? No thank you. I'd prefer a slaughter rule and abandonment of the redline.

@Fivetimes, I'll be responding in order.

That solution to LAV farming has been discussed in a few other threads and the point was rightly raised that such a 'fix' doesn't equally solve the problem for all players as there is no way to determin where the damaged is sourced before repairing thus in effect making the current "no WP for Reppers" hotfix into a permanent thing. That is akin to saying "if someone you kill has taken fall damage you get less than 50 WP for the kill" and is quite simply unacceptable. Any fix to Repair Tool related issues needs to NOT rely on singling out the Repair Tool and crippling how/when it is effective. Any solution that fails to be implemented at the macro game level, rather than the micro gear level will almost certainly bias the game award from proper Logi awards thus creating a fundamental imbalance (just as exists now within CODEX). The farming has to stay gone, no question there but limits on the Repair Tool are simply not the correct answer.

CCP has stated that non-hit scan mechanics are not even on the table due to a number of factors and some of the weapons (railguns for example) wouldn't really support a scatter effect very well, beyond which limiting range reduced their value as an AV asset thus eliminating their role on the field (remember fighters and bombers are still in the pipe so effective long range AV is still needed). I would support some sort of limited ammo effect but I'm dubious as to whether that would solve the problem, after all infantry snipers have limited ammo and they still participate in an identical problematic activity.

What are you even talking about? "Micro gear"? "Macro game level"? These don't mean anything to me.

Anyway, there isn't anything to discuss here as this issue has been easily fixed in other games through differentiating non-enemy damage from enemy damage. Any issues you have with this solution are not really relevant, as they've clearly been addressed by other game systems, and thus you can just go and see what Planetside 2 or whatever did to solve the problem rather than broaching the issue here.

They said that having all weapons have calculated projectiles isn't possible. That's fine, I'm not suggesting assault rifles be non-hit scan. But you're obviously incorrect in saying that non-hit scan weapons aren't on the table, as that's exactly how the plasma cannon is going to work, how swarm launchers work currently, and so on. There are already weapons which are not hit scan.

I am not interested in discussing how railguns work in fictional settings and don't find it relevant to anything we've been discussing here. Nothing in Dust in real, so talking about how it does or doesn't work is moot.

but again changing snipers doesn't address the fundamental issue of this thread. If the redzone is the safest place to snip then snipers will use it regardless of how hard it is to be a sniper.
The point is not "snipers are too good from the redline" the point is "fighting from inside the redline imbalances the fundamental 'Risk vs Reward' mechanic" as such fighting inside the redline needs to go.

Overall the last line of my above paragraph is the point, fighting inside the redline needs to go and no amount of tweaks to other aspects of the game will address the fundamental damage to the Risk vs Reward mechanic.
As long as Mercs are able to use the redzone to amass WP/SP/ISK the problem will remain other changes will only alter the rate of gain, but if they're game wide that will result in a net effect of zero in regards to providing a redress for these problems. I also must question how thoroughly you've read the proposal because it would simply effect anyone within the Yellow Zone or targeting anything within the Yellow Zone. As such the range of the weapon being used it completely irrelevant to it's function.

I'm a bit confused as to why you only responded to half my post, but in any even my response to you follows.

Microcosm verses Macrocosm. Sorry if that was unclear. Simply put don't do lots of tweaks to gear in an attempt to solve what is fundamentally a map issue.

If you have specific solutions that you believe can be cross applied in an effective way to D514, do feel free to post them.
Until such a time however those other games aren't actually part of the conversation since not everyone has played them nor is it reasonable to expect for everyone to do so. Point out the specific ideas you're talking about and how they'd address this issue within Dust and we'll go from there.

I'm unclear as to what you're talking about here, firstly I wasn't trying to have a conversation about real world physics v fictional physics or anything of the kind. Secondly the hitscan references are specific to infantry guns as far as I'm aware and the reference was made within that context I didn't see any reason to single out things like the mass driver, swarm launcher, or grenades because it seemed quite clear they weren't part of this context, apparently I was in error in that regard.
As such I'll put this another way, the solution to redline sniping issues isn't one of altering the various vehicle/infantry weapons used within some form of sniping context, it's a map issue and needs to be addressed as such

I also don't like this idea, as it takes several issues that are legitimate issues, and attempts to "fix" them with a blanket solution which really wouldn't fix them at all.

First, LAV repairing. This is an incredibly easy fix and is something you can see addressed successfully in any number of games, including Planetside 2 most recently. Simply make any non-enemy damage to friendly targets award no points for repairing. It's as simple as that.

HAV sniping from atop some vantage point is another legitimate issue, but once again, the issue is that HAVs can just sit someplace and spam fire down all day. As with sniping, if this were changed you'd still have HAVs sniping ad nauseam from safe locations, only rather than being behind a redline, they'd be right next to it. Just shooting from the hip, but two potential solutions to this would include a certain degree of scattering for HAV weapons that makes them less reliable vs. infantry at longer ranges, and for vehicles to have limited ammunition (with some mechanic to support vehicle resupplies, akin to infantry resupply). This is just a very off-handed idea about this issue though and not something I'd necessarily hang my hat on. I'd simply say that there are other solutions to this issue which would have a real effect on the issue of tanks just parking themselves someplace far off and spamming fire down someplace all game.

Sniping from behind the redline similarly avoids entirely the issue with sniping, in that you can easily hit and kill people with a sniper rifle from the max range of that rifle. Sniping, something I've written about myself at length, is a major problem-area with this game. It needs many changes to it in order to bring it in-line with other forms of infantry combat. One side-effect of some of the changes I've proposed -- that is, bullet travel time, scope sway, and bullet drop over time -- is that sniping from a far-off distance like the redline is in many games relative to the fighting would be much more difficult. Sniping from closer-in, where the effects of such changes would be minimized, would be something snipers would be more inclined to do. In any case, the issue here is with sniping in general.

Overall I find this change totally unnecessary. I think magically making kills not count because you're in a certain area is a very, very clumsy way to address legitimate issues with the game. I don't believe you can solve these problems with a brute-force tactic like the "yellow zone". While snipers in the redline is frustrating, as are HAVs, they will be mostly unaffected by such a change, unless the change is so egregious that it forces people right into AR range before they can get credit for kills.

Use your yellow line idea for the bases, as well as the loss of gain from farming redlined people in their bases and bases shooting out, however instead of forcing people out, make the MCC's move around the edges of the field. Whenever the MCC crosses over a base it fires on enemies who aren't in cover (obviously the base spawn points would have to be revamped to provide cover without allowing sniping out of the base to be too easy), when it crosses it's home base it fires on any enemies too near it, and if it gets too close to an enemy on the field, it fires on them.

This last bit will prevent snipers and forge gunners from sitting on the edges of the map spamming death from the same spot all match. They will have to move around a lot more.

Having the MCC's move around the map would also provide teams the ability to not spawn in a static location that can be easily camped and farmed.

This would also make battles a lot more frantic and perhaps even more difficult for both sides since the "one side has an advantage on one side of the map" strategies would all go out the window.

The solution of redline sniping is absolutely to change the weapons used in this sense, as the problem isn't redline sniping, it's the ability for certain weapons/vehicles to fire, at extreme ranges, essentially indefinitely, with very limited recourse available for the other team.

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Mistaken post (post with actual content in process)