DUST Search - [Suggestion] The Yellow Zone.

Cross Atu wrote:

@Fivetimes, I'll be responding in order.

That solution to LAV farming has been discussed in a few other threads and the point was rightly raised that such a 'fix' doesn't equally solve the problem for all players as there is no way to determin where the damaged is sourced before repairing thus in effect making the current "no WP for Reppers" hotfix into a permanent thing. That is akin to saying "if someone you kill has taken fall damage you get less than 50 WP for the kill" and is quite simply unacceptable. Any fix to Repair Tool related issues needs to NOT rely on singling out the Repair Tool and crippling how/when it is effective. Any solution that fails to be implemented at the macro game level, rather than the micro gear level will almost certainly bias the game award from proper Logi awards thus creating a fundamental imbalance (just as exists now within CODEX). The farming has to stay gone, no question there but limits on the Repair Tool are simply not the correct answer.

Quote:

CCP has stated that non-hit scan mechanics are not even on the table due to a number of factors and some of the weapons (railguns for example) wouldn't really support a scatter effect very well, beyond which limiting range reduced their value as an AV asset thus eliminating their role on the field (remember fighters and bombers are still in the pipe so effective long range AV is still needed). I would support some sort of limited ammo effect but I'm dubious as to whether that would solve the problem, after all infantry snipers have limited ammo and they still participate in an identical problematic activity.


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Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.12.14 23:50:00 - [1] - Quote I also don't like this idea, as it takes several issues that are legitimate issues, and attempts to "fix" them with a blanket solution which really wouldn't fix them at all. First, LAV repairing. This is an incredibly easy fix and is something you can see addressed successfully in any number of games, including Planetside 2 most recently. Simply make any non-enemy damage to friendly targets award no points for repairing. It's as simple as that. HAV sniping from atop some vantage point is another legitimate issue, but once again, the issue is that HAVs can just sit someplace and spam fire down all day. As with sniping, if this were changed you'd still have HAVs sniping ad nauseam from safe locations, only rather than being behind a redline, they'd be right next to it. Just shooting from the hip, but two potential solutions to this would include a certain degree of scattering for HAV weapons that makes them less reliable vs. infantry at longer ranges, and for vehicles to have limited ammunition (with some mechanic to support vehicle resupplies, akin to infantry resupply). This is just a very off-handed idea about this issue though and not something I'd necessarily hang my hat on. I'd simply say that there are other solutions to this issue which would have a real effect on the issue of tanks just parking themselves someplace far off and spamming fire down someplace all game. Sniping from behind the redline similarly avoids entirely the issue with sniping, in that you can easily hit and kill people with a sniper rifle from the max range of that rifle. Sniping, something I've written about myself at length, is a major problem-area with this game. It needs many changes to it in order to bring it in-line with other forms of infantry combat. One side-effect of some of the changes I've proposed -- that is, bullet travel time, scope sway, and bullet drop over time -- is that sniping from a far-off distance like the redline is in many games relative to the fighting would be much more difficult. Sniping from closer-in, where the effects of such changes would be minimized, would be something snipers would be more inclined to do. In any case, the issue here is with sniping in general. Overall I find this change totally unnecessary. I think magically making kills not count because you're in a certain area is a very, very clumsy way to address legitimate issues with the game. I don't believe you can solve these problems with a brute-force tactic like the "yellow zone". While snipers in the redline is frustrating, as are HAVs, they will be mostly unaffected by such a change, unless the change is so egregious that it forces people right into AR range before they can get credit for kills.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.12.16 21:38:00 - [2] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: @Fivetimes, I'll be responding in order. That solution to LAV farming has been discussed in a few other threads and the point was rightly raised that such a 'fix' doesn't equally solve the problem for all players as there is no way to determin where the damaged is sourced before repairing thus in effect making the current "no WP for Reppers" hotfix into a permanent thing. That is akin to saying "if someone you kill has taken fall damage you get less than 50 WP for the kill" and is quite simply unacceptable. Any fix to Repair Tool related issues needs to NOT rely on singling out the Repair Tool and crippling how/when it is effective. Any solution that fails to be implemented at the macro game level, rather than the micro gear level will almost certainly bias the game award from proper Logi awards thus creating a fundamental imbalance (just as exists now within CODEX). The farming has to stay gone, no question there but limits on the Repair Tool are simply not the correct answer. What are you even talking about? "Micro gear"? "Macro game level"? These don't mean anything to me. Anyway, there isn't anything to discuss here as this issue has been easily fixed in other games through differentiating non-enemy damage from enemy damage. Any issues you have with this solution are not really relevant, as they've clearly been addressed by other game systems, and thus you can just go and see what Planetside 2 or whatever did to solve the problem rather than broaching the issue here. Quote: CCP has stated that non-hit scan mechanics are not even on the table due to a number of factors and some of the weapons (railguns for example) wouldn't really support a scatter effect very well, beyond which limiting range reduced their value as an AV asset thus eliminating their role on the field (remember fighters and bombers are still in the pipe so effective long range AV is still needed). I would support some sort of limited ammo effect but I'm dubious as to whether that would solve the problem, after all infantry snipers have limited ammo and they still participate in an identical problematic activity. They said that having all weapons have calculated projectiles isn't possible. That's fine, I'm not suggesting assault rifles be non-hit scan. But you're obviously incorrect in saying that non-hit scan weapons aren't on the table, as that's exactly how the plasma cannon is going to work, how swarm launchers work currently, and so on. There are already weapons which are not hit scan. I am not interested in discussing how railguns work in fictional settings and don't find it relevant to anything we've been discussing here. Nothing in Dust in real, so talking about how it does or doesn't work is moot.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.12.18 17:47:00 - [3] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I'm a bit confused as to why you only responded to half my post, but in any even my response to you follows. Trimming the fat. I don't like making big posts if I can help it. Quote: Microcosm verses Macrocosm. Sorry if that was unclear. Simply put don't do lots of tweaks to gear in an attempt to solve what is fundamentally a map issue. Yes, the simplest solution is usually the best, but this isn't a solution to one problem, as I mentioned, it's several different problems you're attempting to fix with one change. I don't believe your suggestion would be a fix, nor do I believe the genuine problem is being recognized. Firing from the redline is really just a symptom of a more significant underlying issue. Quote: If you have specific solutions that you believe can be cross applied in an effective way to D514, do feel free to post them. Until such a time however those other games aren't actually part of the conversation since not everyone has played them nor is it reasonable to expect for everyone to do so. Point out the specific ideas you're talking about and how they'd address this issue within Dust and we'll go from there. As mentioned, it's very simple to make damage done by enemies award experience for repairing. Quote: I'm unclear as to what you're talking about here, firstly I wasn't trying to have a conversation about real world physics v fictional physics or anything of the kind. Secondly the hitscan references are specific to infantry guns as far as I'm aware and the reference was made within that context I didn't see any reason to single out things like the mass driver, swarm launcher, or grenades because it seemed quite clear they weren't part of this context, apparently I was in error in that regard. As such I'll put this another way, the solution to redline sniping issues isn't one of altering the various vehicle/infantry weapons used within some form of sniping context, it's a map issue and needs to be addressed as such The point is that you were wrong in saying that calculated projectiles are off the table. Sniper rifles could absolutely be changed such that they behave more like sniper rifles in other games, where shooting at very long ranges is difficult due to sway/drop/travel time. The solution of redline sniping is absolutely to change the weapons used in this sense, as the problem isn't redline sniping, it's the ability for certain weapons/vehicles to fire, at extreme ranges, essentially indefinitely, with very limited recourse available for the other team. What's the difference between a sniper or tank shooting from 1 m outside the redline, and one firing from just inside the redline? Do you have so many more options available to tackling the sniper/tank in the former case? How far forward would you need to deprive people of their points before the issue is resolved? What if the tank driver/sniper doesn't care about points and just wants to incur significant damage to the enemy team by killing with virtual impunity? Your solution doesn't solve any problem.