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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 15:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, i noticed quite a lot of folks suggesting things such as boarding stations or EVE ships. Others requesting some infantry oriented maps. After discussing all this with some fellow IRC dudes, i think i have a suggestion that could be pretty satisfying for both players and CCP. First thing to know about it is that this isnt actually a new game mode, but more of a skirmish variation, based on the skirmish 1.0 from Dust itself.
This suggestion is very much opened to discussion. Thoughts, opinions, critics even are more than welcome. Please guys, just try and stay on topic.
Back to business now., title is pretty explicit, let's have Fights inside War Barges.
Why War Barges ?
This suggestion could very well work with big planetary infrastructure as well, but as i saw many ship suggestion, i thought it would be a pretty good angle. Other than that, main reason is that those ships are kinda "out of EVE" at the moment and it allows avoiding the problem inherent to boarding human-controlled ships. Also, Every NPC corps that fuels contracts in high sec has more than likely a lot of War Barges so they can fight for various installations on a lot of different planets.
Second reason, War Barges are huge and would allow some pretty decent indoor maps.
Third reason, and not the least, war barges are equipped with CRUs or similar equipment that allow mercs from every spot in the universe to be transferred in. This gives us a solid background to justify "boarding" MCCs without any other ships needed to intervene in the process.
Why would an NPC corp attack another NPC corp War Barges from the inside ?
Not all of you guys may know that High-Security spaces in Eve are controlled by CONCORD, an NPC police that prevents wild fights to happen in those areas unless corps are at war officially.. Also, it would make sense that those NPC corps escort those War Barge tightly, so a space fight could mean a massive loss of ISK. Using mercs would then be more than interesting.
So, what would those fights look like ?
The starting point would be that a NPC corp manages to remotely hack one (or more) of the enemy War Barge CRUs, allowing it to deploy its own hired mercs inside. This original hack wouldnt require any player made action, it's more of a background element to explain those fights happening. Purpose could then be to either capture the War Barge, or to aim for its destruction. Honestly, i always have slight preference for destruction . Now, gameplay details.
Maps look : Maps would be pretty much hallway linking rooms with several objectives. I tried to draw what a map like i imagine could look like but i'm no level design specialist so i'll let you guys use you imagination. But few thing that sounds pretty good to me would be to have fights in the War Room we're already used to see so often, hallways from wich you could see the MCC hangar we spotted in 09 footage, large lobbys being crossroads on the map etc... I'm no BF2142 expert, but something like that. .
Objective Mechanics : In order to make an interesting game mode, i think map should be defenders vs attackers with a two step objectives. We could use MAG or Dust Skirmish 1.0 idea's of defense relay pretty easily. So attackers would have to hack two "security relays" that would allow them access to a main command room (for capture) or engine room (for destruction) where the final control node to hack for the win would be.
Secondary objectives :
Supply depot : In the War Room, we have fitting screens that allow acces to market, fits etc... They could perfectly be used as supply depot inside the War Barge. They're small objects that could fit pretty much anywhere.
CRUs : War barges are pretty big structures. Even though we only saw War Room till now, it wouldnt be of any surprise for it to hold various spots for mercs to appear in when summoned for a battle. Even better, attackers could start with various spawn location throughout the map.
Small turrets : it would make sense for the hacked War Barge to have defensive systems being turned on when intrusion are detected, like small blaster turrets being deployed.
Equipment, Weapons and such :
All infantry weapons are viable for those fights. It may even give more value to some that aren't given some love with the large planetary maps.
Same goes with most equipment. Drop uplink could be awkward though, would need some thought if they could be usable or not.
Those maps would probably give a lot more value to scanners, profile dampeners and amplifiers.
Victory conditions : In my opinion, there would only be a time limit on those maps and no ticket one. Yes skirmish dont have timers but skirmish 1.0 had one in the form of the MCC lifespan. Wich is pretty much still the case. Timer would be the time left before War Barge systems manage to over-run the CRUs hack. Clone limit wouldnt make much sense tbh but could still be kept for practical developing reasons without causing much trouble. Now back to victory conditions.
- Attackers : Obviously, managing to hack the main objective would mean victory. Depleting defender's tickets as well if available.
- Defenders : Still having tickets (if needed) and preventing attackers from completing objective in the allowed time. You could also have the defenders having the opportunity to hack back the attackers CRUs to stop the intrusion and thus winning the game. Could add a interesting layer in gameplay.
to continue. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 15:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Now, Why would this be a (very) good idea.
Player side:
To answer the frequent demand of infantry oriented maps without taking out substance from classic planetary maps.
To add variety, both in environment and objective mechanics which is always welcome
Because i say so
For CCP:
Satisfying and anticipating player demands is always a good thing
Based on existing mechanics, it probably isnt a massive developing investment outside of level design.
Could probably use existing visual material from EVE
It would allow you guys to have a set of maps that wouldn't work with your random map generating engine. Maps that would be preset and very stable for being a lot smaller than planetary ones.
Would make very good maps for the so expected Gladiator Arena.
In conclusion, those maps, without becoming the main battlefield on Dust could be, especially for more casual players a very good way to raise success on the game. I'm now eager to hear from you folks and complete all this from valuable input
How it could expand to Player Owned War Barge (new accro : POWB) fights:
Many people who commented that thread talked about further expansion of this original idea. Taking the fights either on EVE spaceships or in player owned War Barge. If EVE ships pretty much remain out of the question even for 1 or 2 years ahead, fights in player-owned War Barge sounds like a great idea.
Obviously, those can only happend when null-sec and full planetary conquest will be available. And it would mean adding some gameplay elements to allow one player Corp to attack another player corp's War Barge. Also, it would depend whether or not War Barge will become destroyable targets EVE side at that point. So, this part is pure speculation.
But let's try it anyway. In my opinion, War Barge won't be driven EVE side as it's a Dust 514 asset primarily. And i dont expect it to actually fly in solar systems to get from point in the universe to another. Thus, i dont see it becoming a classic destroyable target either. So, War Barge will more likely be seen orbiting planets and that's it.
We know that planetary conquest will probably rely on the use of reinforce timers just like many structures in EVE. To make it short for people unaware of the system, it's when a structure is under attack and then goes into "god mode" for as long as it has fuel stored. When reinforce timer is over, it can be blown up by the enemy. This timer has mainly the purpose of avoiding "sleep rampage". Meaning avoiding the risk of having your whole work destroyed during your so needed daily sleep.
So, why not expand this system to War Barge ?
=> Say player corp A sent a War Barge to orbit player corp B's planet. => Corp A's WB is spotted by corp A's EVE players and attacked, it goes into reinforce mode after some good amoung of damage just like some other EVE structures. => Being in reinforce mode, WB cannot be used as an attacking platform by Corp A. It's in "shutdown mode", pretty much useless and stuck here. And more importantly, susceptible to have one of its CRUs hacked.
Now, all that's needed is a way for corp B mercs to attack it. If we keep same entry point as for NPC war barge fights, we need a way for corp B to hack one of the ennemy War Barge CRU. Now, we could imagine various possibilities :
=> A planetary structure such as "a hacking relay" => Corp B moving one of its war barge equipped with an hacking device of some sort near the enemy War Barge. => Hacking a CRU would take a defined amount of time. => If Hack is successfull until War Barge reinforce mode is over, then Corp B gets to attack it. => If Hack isnt done before reinforce timer end, Corp A's War Barge auto-jump to another friendly location.
With something working somehow this way, you would get many advantages :
=> You keep War Barge as a Dust oriented asset. (not destroyable by EVE players, dust players driven) => You add another link in EVE-Dust relation (EVE ships needed to turn enemy War Barge into reinforce mode) => You add another layer in gameplay ( Needing to take EVE population into account, Risk of losing your war barge in a badly planned invasion attempt)
As always, thoughts ? |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 15:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
reserved, we never know. |
Cortez The Killer
Immobile Infantry
190
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 16:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Very well thought out and interesting idea, just not an NPC contract beyond Beta. +1
It's the substance that would make the difference. In order to keep people from disengaging in the "One Universe, One War" foundation, it would need to be a contested barge that actually belongs to someone/ some corp and have an effect on that corps ability to wage war somewhere. In that way it would give the infantry only people a playground and still be a contribution to the overall gameplay, lore, roleplay, whatever.
This may also lead into an interesting mesh of Eve and Dust, as an Eve corp would first have to disable the barge in space before it could be contested. Borrowing from existing sov mechanics, it might not be terribly difficult to modify to apply to war barges. It would also answer a ton of questions people have asked about whether war barges would be attackable, and if so, conquerable or destructable.
This is a way better idea you have here than some map generated out of thin air for people to play on that has no lasting effect beyond stats. |
Mace Karren
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
24
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 17:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Very good Idea. I hope CCP takes this into consideration. |
Kain Spero
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
907
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 17:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
I really like this idea. +1 |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 19:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cortez The Killer wrote:Very well thought out and interesting idea, just not an NPC contract beyond Beta. +1
It's the substance that would make the difference. In order to keep people from disengaging in the "One Universe, One War" foundation, it would need to be a contested barge that actually belongs to someone/ some corp and have an effect on that corps ability to wage war somewhere. In that way it would give the infantry only people a playground and still be a contribution to the overall gameplay, lore, roleplay, whatever.
This may also lead into an interesting mesh of Eve and Dust, as an Eve corp would first have to disable the barge in space before it could be contested. Borrowing from existing sov mechanics, it might not be terribly difficult to modify to apply to war barges. It would also answer a ton of questions people have asked about whether war barges would be attackable, and if so, conquerable or destructable.
This is a way better idea you have here than some map generated out of thin air for people to play on that has no lasting effect beyond stats.
Thanks for the input. I agree with you that in the future, it would be interested to have fights for player owned ships in Dust 514. But it would need a lot more thoughts and balance than any planetary fight. Also, we have no real idea how war barge will work within EVE. Will they be "attackable" (sorry), EVE player driven etc.. Regarding other player owned ships, it's even more complicated. First they are the tools for eve players to actually play the game. Having those ship being destroyed by mercs without them having any real involvement could make a lot of people angry. To make it simple, it could take years to reach that kind of interactions.
Thus why i suggest to have this as a NPC contracted type of fight for starter. Would already set in-space fights as something that exists and leave plenty of time to think for further interactions. Would also contend many infantry players. Two birds one stone.
After all, no NPC contracted fights will have any impact on the overall EVE universe and wether we like or not, they will probably the most played battles for a while. So, doesnt matter if we have War Barge fights in those high-sec battles at first.
But in the end, anyone will probably agree that infantry battles on player owned spaceships would be the ultimate step for the EVE universe. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 20:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mace Karren wrote:Very good Idea. I hope CCP takes this into consideration.
my thoughts exactly +1 caz |
Jarlaxle Xorlarrin
SyNergy Gaming
67
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 21:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
+1 Really interesting idea. I think it would be pretty fun. |
Cortez The Killer
Immobile Infantry
190
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 22:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Cortez The Killer wrote:Very well thought out and interesting idea, just not an NPC contract beyond Beta. +1
It's the substance that would make the difference. In order to keep people from disengaging in the "One Universe, One War" foundation, it would need to be a contested barge that actually belongs to someone/ some corp and have an effect on that corps ability to wage war somewhere. In that way it would give the infantry only people a playground and still be a contribution to the overall gameplay, lore, roleplay, whatever.
This may also lead into an interesting mesh of Eve and Dust, as an Eve corp would first have to disable the barge in space before it could be contested. Borrowing from existing sov mechanics, it might not be terribly difficult to modify to apply to war barges. It would also answer a ton of questions people have asked about whether war barges would be attackable, and if so, conquerable or destructable.
This is a way better idea you have here than some map generated out of thin air for people to play on that has no lasting effect beyond stats. Thanks for the input. I agree with you that in the future, it would be interested to have fights for player owned ships in Dust 514. But it would need a lot more thoughts and balance than any planetary fight. Also, we have no real idea how war barge will work within EVE. Will they be "attackable" (sorry), EVE player driven etc.. Regarding other player owned ships, it's even more complicated. First they are the tools for eve players to actually play the game. Having those ship being destroyed by mercs without them having any real involvement could make a lot of people angry. To make it simple, it could take years to reach that kind of interactions. Thus why i suggest to have this as a NPC contracted type of fight for starter. Would already set in-space fights as something that exists and leave plenty of time to think for further interactions. Would also contend many infantry players. Two birds one stone. After all, no NPC contracted fights will have any impact on the overall EVE universe and wether we like or not, they will probably the most played battles for a while. So, doesnt matter if we have War Barge fights in those high-sec battles at first. But in the end, anyone will probably agree that infantry battles on player owned spaceships would be the ultimate step for the EVE universe.
I hear ya. As much fun as it would be to have Eve ships (f.ex. a Titan) able to be tackled and overrun with mercs, yes it's a long way off. War Barges do not currently exist in Eve, it's a Dust based asset. It is also an asset that corporations will eventually need to build/buy and defend (with Eve fleet support). I'm probably thinking a year or more in advance. For now the NPC contract is probably a good way to go. For now. Until the mechanics are in place for grander things.
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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 01:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cortez The Killer wrote:
I hear ya. As much fun as it would be to have Eve ships (f.ex. a Titan) able to be tackled and overrun with mercs, yes it's a long way off. War Barges do not currently exist in Eve, it's a Dust based asset. It is also an asset that corporations will eventually need to build/buy and defend (with Eve fleet support). I'm probably thinking a year or more in advance. For now the NPC contract is probably a good way to go. For now. Until the mechanics are in place for grander things.
we re on the same page then |
angelarch
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 06:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Great idea! |
Lion Redstar
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
66
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 10:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
What can I say except +1 Attacking player controlled ships is still a long way to go but this would sure be a step closer into it. Also a close quarter combat mode would be a great addition to the game. |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 12:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
I dont see how it would work
Ther is no mention of how the attackers would board the warbarge to start with, its just attackers turn up out of thin air and attack
So its a no |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 13:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:I dont see how it would work
Ther is no mention of how the attackers would board the warbarge to start with, its just attackers turn up out of thin air and attack
So its a no
.....Look closer..... The entry point would be a remote hack of boarded CRUs on the ennemy War Barge that would last for a X amount time, acting as a time limit for the game. For NPC contracts, you pretty much can made up whatever you want as long as it fits the background.
here's a quote from original post.
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:The idea is that one NPC corp manages to hack one of the enemy War Barge CRUs, allowing it to deploy its own mercs inside. Purpose could then be to either capture the War Barge for their own use, or to aim for its destruction. Honestly, i always have slight preference for destruction Lol. Now, gameplay details.
Edited first message so it's more clear now. |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 13:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Still how do they get up ther to the warbarge which is orbiting around the planet? |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 18:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:Still how do they get up ther to the warbarge which is orbiting around the planet?
Just like they spawn on any CRU on any map. Merc consciousness being directly transferred from say one war barge to the ennemy one through a remote hacked CRU in the MCC. I think you misunderstood me, it wouldnt be going from planetary surface to the war barge but fights happening only inside it. |
WHz DS9899
Doomheim
136
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 18:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sounds good, but all I want right now is a hover bike, and a huge map with big hills |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
648
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 19:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
How do you initiate said hack on an internally contained CRU in the War Barge in the first place? (Lore wise) Is there a prerequisite gameplay moment or ingame object that initiates it? Such as some kind of large infrastructure/installation on the planet below that has a high power communications node to remotely hack into the enemy MCC above? |
Vincam Velmoriar
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 19:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Fantastic idea. +1 |
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 19:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
J'Jor Da'Wg wrote:How do you initiate said hack on an internally contained CRU in the War Barge in the first place? (Lore wise) Is there a prerequisite gameplay moment or ingame object that initiates it? Such as some kind of large infrastructure/installation on the planet below that has a high power communications node to remotely hack into the enemy MCC above?
I like the idea more if it's worked into something like this.
Some form of EWAR weapon mounted on a War Barge could allow you to remotely hack a certain number of CRUs on board an enemy War Barge, and an attack on the interior of the ship could be initiated.
Obviously there would need to be some form of prerequisite before such an attack can be used. Maybe something as simple as breaking the enemy War Barge's shields - and if you want to do that without risking your own War Barge, you'll need someone on the ground to take over the Skyfire batteries and direct fire at the enemy War Barge. Or there might be a ground-based facility that either interferes with the remote hacking systems or which you need to capture for some other reason. Maybe it's a high-powered communication array that can send encrypted data to the enemy War Barge, and if you don't capture it soon enough after launching the attack, they can wipe the codes and you don't get to assault the War Barge in this way.
They could also have a special weapon, or just a missile type, that has a CRU attached. Fire it into the enemy War Barge after you drop their shields, and your Mercs can spawn on board. You could explain it away as being non-viable in space, and only effective against War Barges because they're in a low enough orbit to be skimming the atmosphere, and that's enough to allow suited Mercs to survive. Initially you'd only be spawning at the CRU your War barge fired into the enemy, but you could explore the interior of the ship and hack various system which allow you access further inside. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
434
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 20:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
You overlook a main point. Reality.
In reality I am not playing this game all the time. I play it maybe once to twice a week now. So how could that work? If half a corp is on East coast time and asleep while the other corp is full of West Coast time zone people, the West Coast team would overwhelm the other because half the players aren't playing a video game. Even if you could have it be scheduled, it's likely that people would not show up on the East Coast because it would interfere with work or sleep or any other aspect of a LIFE. So before proposing all these corporation specific maps, think about the people involved. Dust shouldn't be a religion. It should be a video-game. It can have all the cool features like EVE integration that would make it more fun and unique, but don't have it demand more than the average person wants to put in.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that the lack of people signed in per corp defending their warbarge would make it unfair. It's like getting your house robbed while you're out doing something. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 20:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:You overlook a main point. Reality.
In reality I am not playing this game all the time. I play it maybe once to twice a week now. So how could that work? If half a corp is on East coast time and asleep while the other corp is full of West Coast time zone people, the West Coast team would overwhelm the other because half the players aren't playing a video game. Even if you could have it be scheduled, it's likely that people would not show up on the East Coast because it would interfere with work or sleep or any other aspect of a LIFE. So before proposing all these corporation specific maps, think about the people involved. Dust shouldn't be a religion. It should be a video-game. It can have all the cool features like EVE integration that would make it more fun and unique, but don't have it demand more than the average person wants to put in.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that this suggestion is about assaulting War Barges controlled by NPCs. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
434
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 20:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote: You seem to be ignoring the fact that this suggestion is about assaulting War Barges controlled by NPCs.
You seem to be ignoring that I don't know what an NPC is. I play this game once a week. I have very little knowledge of EVE other than a first glance at their site.
The Mighty - out |
Cortez The Killer
Immobile Infantry
190
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 22:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote: You seem to be ignoring the fact that this suggestion is about assaulting War Barges controlled by NPCs.
You seem to be ignoring that I don't know what an NPC is. I play this game once a week. I have very little knowledge of EVE other than a first glance at their site. The Mighty - out
NPC (Non Player Character) is not a term created by or restricted to Eve. It's been around since dirt was new. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 23:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
I really really love this idea. I always wanted to fight on a ship, but ship-boarding would be tricky to do and unpopular. I really really hope this gets implemented. Ship interior +1 Infantry only +1 MAG / Skirmish 1.0 style objectives +1 |
Joran Myokenes
Doomheim
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 23:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
here's my two cents. How about instead of it just being the interior, we have the slight outside of the ship open too. If we have the proper dropsuit, we could actually walk on the outside of the ship, possibly even using explosives or some sort of drill to enter a different part of the War Barge. Also, we could have a special type of dropship (say, larger and having open and closeable doors instead of landing gear). These could pull up in front of airlocks (where you can also exit the ship in the dropsuit) and deposit soldiers inside.
Also, what if we could use that same system for, say, searching derelict ships. It could have the benefit of yielding a greater percentage of the cargo and modules the ship had equipped, while the negative of requiring you to assemble a small, say, three man team.
@Bojo the mighty, This happens a lot in EVE, and it's never that significant of a problem. Why? Because we added sovereignty to the mix of factors. To avoid what you're suggesting, we just institute a 24-hour response time between when the barge is t\hacked and taken offline, and when it becomes usable by the enemy.
Also, I do know that it's only NPC contracts |
Traky78
What The French
115
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 00:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
This is an amazing idea.. Infantry battles in the WAR barge could be amazing +1 |
olssam 62
What The French
37
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 01:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
verry good idea |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 11:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
there seems to be a slight misunderstanding regarding my suggestion. probably due to the title of the thread and me being french ^^
those war barge fights would be totally independant from planetary fights. there wouldnt be any link. the remotechack of a war barge cru is a simple background thing for justifying those fights happening with solid elements from the eve universe.
yet. i like the idea as well but it would be much more difficult to implement and my purpose here was to suggest something that would be "easy" to add. to have the ability of fighting both on planet and war barge would require a way higher player cap butvit could be epic though i agree on that. |
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