DUST Search - Overnerfing: Then and Now (AV/Tank Nerf & WP / Precision Strike Nerf)

Raven Tesio wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

The breach assault rifle as well. Instead of being made equal to the AR, it now has less damage per magazine, less damage per minute, still cost MORE ISK, and the hipfire accuracy difference between the breach and the basic variant is barely noticeable.
Dropships as well. They increase targeting range so weapons can hit dropships on towers (good), they change the controls to make dropships more difficult to fly (ok), they remove all the BPO (ok), they raise the price (the rest was already enough), then they raise the price again so that a militia dropship cost more than a tank (they could have just lowered the price of tanks), and they also add a damn ceiling...

CCP is just terrible at nerfing things, and it kind of scares me whenever people (including me) call attention to a balance issue because CCP might overdo it again. They really need to be more subtle with their nerfs, and stop nerfing something at the same time as buffing its counterpart (Vehicles and AV, hit detection and strafing).

I'd agree with this... been playing EVE for damn near 9 years now, something I've noticed when a big enough group of people QQ about something rather than subjectively sitting down and deciding what to do. CCP will simple blap! an entire range of things.

Most memorable to me was one Alliance Tournament the Gallente Cruiser (Thorax) was used considerably with a high-level of success. Everyone cried that Blasters were over-powered, damn near overnight CCP destroyed the damage output of ALL Hybrid weaponry to oblivion which yeah brought Blasters a little more in-line on Gallente ships with bonus' but in one swift swoop all destroyed the PvP ability of every single Caldari Gunboat as they used Hybrids but only had a Range Bonus over damage.

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Illuminaughty-696 Omega Risk Control Services 203	Posted - 2012.10.12 15:06:00 - [1] - Quote CCP: Please be more judicious in your use of the nerf. You have a proven tendency to overnerf. Take, for instance, the previous AV nerfs, then the unnerf of the AV AND the simultaneous nerf of vehicles (tanks especially). Now, you have overnerfed WPs/Precision Strikes. You nerfed two thing simultaneously, and once again, have overdone it. I appreciate your fix, however jury-rigged it may be, to address boosting and farming, but this is still overnerfing. Thank you.
Vincam Velmoriar Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2012.10.12 16:30:00 - [2] - Quote Illuminaughty-696 wrote: CCP: Please be more judicious in your use of the nerf. You have a proven tendency to overnerf. Take, for instance, the previous AV nerfs, then the unnerf of the AV AND the simultaneous nerf of vehicles (tanks especially). Now, you have overnerfed WPs/Precision Strikes. You nerfed two thing simultaneously, and once again, have overdone it. I appreciate your fix, however jury-rigged it may be, to address boosting and farming, but this is still overnerfing. Thank you. Agree about overnerfing, but the precision strikes were a bit much.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.10.12 16:55:00 - [3] - Quote Maybe now they can give tanks a balanced buff.
Whispercrow Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.10.12 17:14:00 - [4] - Quote So, noobish Q here... but... How are Orbital Strikes nerfed now? I mean, aside from the fact that a couple of guys can't wash a car all match and give the squad leader chain precision strikes throughout the entire match?
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.10.12 17:20:00 - [5] - Quote WP gains were significantly reduced by lowering rewards on squad orders and things like nanohive rewards. At the same time the cost for a PS were increased. Together those actions have taken strikes from a twice a minute occurrence to the point I haven't seen one in a match.
Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.10.12 18:29:00 - [6] - Quote Skihids wrote: WP gains were significantly reduced by lowering rewards on squad orders and things like nanohive rewards. At the same time the cost for a PS were increased. Together those actions have taken strikes from a twice a minute occurrence to the point I haven't seen one in a match. I still get them with the squads I've been playing with, but yeah it's like one per game, and it comes near the end of the game.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.10.12 18:42:00 - [7] - Quote The breach assault rifle as well. Instead of being made equal to the AR, it now has less damage per magazine, less damage per minute, still cost MORE ISK, and the hipfire accuracy difference between the breach and the basic variant is barely noticeable. Dropships as well. They increase targeting range so weapons can hit dropships on towers (good), they change the controls to make dropships more difficult to fly (ok), they remove all the BPO (ok), they raise the price (the rest was already enough), then they raise the price again so that a militia dropship cost more than a tank (they could have just lowered the price of tanks), and they also add a damn ceiling... CCP is just terrible at nerfing things, and it kind of scares me whenever people (including me) call attention to a balance issue because CCP might overdo it again. They really need to be more subtle with their nerfs, and stop nerfing something at the same time as buffing its counterpart (Vehicles and AV, hit detection and strafing).
Sandair Mulholy Codex Troopers 42	Posted - 2012.10.12 19:30:00 - [8] - Quote All these nerfings are number nerfs, and they are super easy to enable quickly. They were made to make the beta more playable while CCP tries to figure out a better and more permanent fix that can only come in the next build. A good example is with the tanks. A nice solution would be to separate the driver and the main gunner. That would fix the tanks without making them useless. But that can't be done quickly, and it can only be done in a new build. So in the meantime, they nerf the tanks by lowering the numbers. On the other hand, they are nerf happy (even in EVE).
Aq'sa L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 44	Posted - 2012.10.12 21:39:00 - [9] - Quote Respectfully understanding that balance isn't final, I agree. Double Nerfs in reaction to forum tears is actually becoming the norm. I know CCP has to rely on the betatesters feedback- that IS a good thing. Hell, we all love as much response to our suggestions as possible, but I think we need more introspection to the root cause for forum complaints, not simply a direct reaction to the complaint. For example- The reactionary measure to nerf the Breach AR Class: Creodron had high per shot damage, but was on the lower range of DPS for prototype rifles. It had decent accuracy / low recoil. The obviously high damage/shot led it to be picked up by many of our casual FPS testers who aren't the Eve theorycrafters who calculate DPS almost religiously. Despite the large number of people deploying Creodron Breaches, the three shot burst and tactical rifles were successfully deployed against them, frequently, with plenty of success, during the E3 build. The large amount of Creodron use led to forum tears however, which led to the nerf hammer. Nerfing the Breach Assault Rifles, instead of bringing accuracy up and recoil down for the alternatives to balance them out, was the reaction. The Creodron, one of the lowest DPS prototype rifles, with exceptional accuracy, is nerfed to even lower DPS, without addressing the fact that the 'tactical' rifle rifle- single shot & performed better in DPS- had lower accuracy than the fully auto Breach rifle. The 3 shot burst had more recoil than the fully auto. This is not only illogical, but led to the only true unbalances in the class. These simply needed accuracy boosts to fall in line balance-wise. Similar changes have happened to other things used frequently, thus complained about frequently. All of the following could have benefitted form balance finesse instead of the gross nerf pendulum swings we are experiencing. HAV (Cost Increase + Nerf); Railgun Installation ( Rotation Speed + Splash Damage Reduction + Overheat Rate Increase); Prototype Dropsuits (HP Reduction + Cost Increase). Every one of the above would have benefitted from tweaks (cost increase alone would have had most of the desired effects for HAV & Prototype Gear) but there seems to be a tendency to try and slam dunk a problem instead of a simple, effective lay-up.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.10.12 21:53:00 - [10] - Quote The WP/WBS nerf was right tbh Strikes were way to easy to get by playing and they were spammed alot and the winner was who could spam the most In comparision to the Tank/AV nerf buff its **** all, tanks are now paper to milita AV weapons

Conraire Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 52	Posted - 2012.10.13 00:56:00 - [11] - Quote I see a lot of QQing here. From the whole AV thing, all the way through the dropship and AR thing. Let me explain why each happened, and why said changes were needed. Since it was before my time, my guess would be the AV nerf, was done because of people using Swarms to kill other dropsuits instead of vehicles. Or they were just plain more powerful than they had intended at the time. This lead to HAV's becoming an I win button. And AV users became fodder for other foot soldiers, since they almost couldn't defend themselves, while also getting shot at by said HAV's. HAV pilots whining about being 1 shot killed by swarm launchers, etc. Never saw that happen once, even after the HAV "nerf", unless it was a real poorly fit militia tank, and even then it was rare. Even after the nerf, with the first aurum swarm launcher you can get, it would still take me at least 6 shots to get most tanks even remotely close to blowing up. LAV's on the other hand have always only taken maybe 1 full swarm hit, 2 at most. So oh nooooeeesss!!! they nerfed my I win button Wahhhhh calls wahmbulance for you At the OP on the WP/Precision strike nerf. So, to you it wasn't absurd that people were basically sitting in the red zone, farming WP without risk. And then spamming Precision strikes every 10 to 15 seconds or less? They outright said the current state of the fix, isn't a permanent fix and is only meant as a stopgap until they can change the code in the next build. Not to mention the ones who started glitching to get under the map, to do the exploiting. Not to mention this made it so you haven't seen tanks on the field at all, due to risk of being blown to hell due to PS abuse. Again, Oh Nooooees!! they nerfed my I wins button wah wah wah, you sure you don't want that wahmbulance? @Kageh The AR whole group needs a slight rework. I have some ideas for that, but not gonna post em on this particular thread. My guess with the breach rifle, since that nerf was before my time here, that it was much like the issue with this build and the tactical AR being full auto. It probably needed to be fixed, but CCP does indeed have a tendency to over nerf on some things, especially if no one puts forward a solid, logical and well thought out idea on how to fix things. They do it their own way until they can go back and take a good long look at the issue. @Kageh on the drop ship issue thats another thing entirely. They did was was necessary there. I'm curious, I've looked at the dropships, the militia viper costs no more than a militia tank. I bought a stack of 10 just before new build to learn to fly them. Yes they are a pain in the rear to fly. And, the BPO thing for the time being really shouldn't be a problem. About the ceiling thing though. It's always been there, but it wasn't enforced for flying vehicles. I know this for a fact, as last build people flying drop ships would fly up above the ceiling to and stay stationary to repair. Yet, if I fired at said none moving dropship with my forge gun or swarm launchers the missiles or shot would detonate the second they hit the ceiling. All the while the gunner in the dropship could shoot back down at me freely, especially with the railgun or missile turrets. That was a game breaking problem. It needed to be fixed. To counter that fix, they boosted the speed on the dropships. So now, we have nigh invincible drop ships. All they have to do is fly around the map in a circle and not go slow to outrun any swarm missile. And if they have a gunner thats worth their salt, they'll go 20/0 easy. You could say, just use a forge gun, but again, either you've gotta be real good at on the fly trigonometry, or real lucky. As you're waiting for a weapon to charge, while trying to judge how much to lead your shot to counter out their speed and the distance between you and them. And even then its likely to be a one shot kill. As far as being nerf happy in EVE.... I've been around a while.. Long enough to remember people using the dual mwd suicide bomber ravens. Long enough to remember people using oversized ABs on smaller ships, in fact I'm one of the ones that pioneered that. My fav was the 10mn ab on a rifter, or tristan. I think the only nerf they went way overboard with was the missile nerfs.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1594	Posted - 2012.10.13 04:30:00 - [12] - Quote @OP I skipped reading all the comments below your initial post to say this: The overnerf of the precision strike is just the result of a temporary hotfix from CCP. They are working on a permanent solution that won't come around until the next build. It's posted in the stickies.
Patches The Hyena Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 24	Posted - 2012.10.13 05:34:00 - [13] - Quote Not giving War Points for repairing is abysmal even as a temporary solution. As a heavy being repaired is very important to my long term survival and not giving the people who take the time to repair my 800+ armor HP is **. Why ** up the game just because of farmers? It's a damn beta, they are just gonna get reset anyway.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.10.13 12:20:00 - [14] - Quote Patches The Hyena wrote: Not giving War Points for repairing is abysmal even as a temporary solution. As a heavy being repaired is very important to my long term survival and not giving the people who take the time to repair my 800+ armor HP is **. Why ** up the game just because of farmers? It's a damn beta, they are just gonna get reset anyway. You can rep infantry and still get pts
Bhor Derri Legion of Eden 95	Posted - 2012.10.13 12:36:00 - [15] - Quote Un-Nerf tank they now have paper armor.
Raven Tesio Liandri Hel-Jumpers Liandri Covenant 35	Posted - 2012.10.13 13:06:00 - [16] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The breach assault rifle as well. Instead of being made equal to the AR, it now has less damage per magazine, less damage per minute, still cost MORE ISK, and the hipfire accuracy difference between the breach and the basic variant is barely noticeable. Dropships as well. They increase targeting range so weapons can hit dropships on towers (good), they change the controls to make dropships more difficult to fly (ok), they remove all the BPO (ok), they raise the price (the rest was already enough), then they raise the price again so that a militia dropship cost more than a tank (they could have just lowered the price of tanks), and they also add a damn ceiling... CCP is just terrible at nerfing things, and it kind of scares me whenever people (including me) call attention to a balance issue because CCP might overdo it again. They really need to be more subtle with their nerfs, and stop nerfing something at the same time as buffing its counterpart (Vehicles and AV, hit detection and strafing). I'd agree with this... been playing EVE for damn near 9 years now, something I've noticed when a big enough group of people QQ about something rather than subjectively sitting down and deciding what to do. CCP will simple blap! an entire range of things. Most memorable to me was one Alliance Tournament the Gallente Cruiser (Thorax) was used considerably with a high-level of success. Everyone cried that Blasters were over-powered, damn near overnight CCP destroyed the damage output of ALL Hybrid weaponry to oblivion which yeah brought Blasters a little more in-line on Gallente ships with bonus' but in one swift swoop all destroyed the PvP ability of every single Caldari Gunboat as they used Hybrids but only had a Range Bonus over damage. In my opinion and this is STILL true today, the Gallente should have a Drone Damage Bonus NOT Hybrid. Still that's an on-going argument on the EVE Forums Point is CCP has always been incredibly sevear in their Nerf-Hammer, while when something needs a buff; often they provide the most eneamic (sp?) boost to that given system. It often kittens me off cause very often the issue of something being over-powered tends to be with a SINGLE ship. (Heavy Missiles anyone!?) I'm afraid you're just going to have to get used to CCPs methodology of Nerf-Buff Balancing, which I have yet to really be happy with any "balancing" they have done as they tend to focus on the wrong damn things. If it was me, I would find something I was happy with then try to balance the rest of the game around that. This said for the most part, the Anti-Vehicle weaponry isn't exactly bad, nor are the Tanks. I think Heavy Weapons could do with some tweaking to make them less effective against Infantry and a little more focused on being Vehicle Specific damage dealers... as for Tanks, well frankly not noticed them being particularly bad as such. I mean it's impossible to deal with them except for with the weaponry designed for them, even then the Militia Swarm launcher frankly is worthless unless used in large enough numbers as even a default tank can perma-tank the damage they deal.
Aq'sa L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 44	Posted - 2012.10.15 14:24:00 - [17] - Quote Raven Tesio wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The breach assault rifle as well. Instead of being made equal to the AR, it now has less damage per magazine, less damage per minute, still cost MORE ISK, and the hipfire accuracy difference between the breach and the basic variant is barely noticeable. Dropships as well. They increase targeting range so weapons can hit dropships on towers (good), they change the controls to make dropships more difficult to fly (ok), they remove all the BPO (ok), they raise the price (the rest was already enough), then they raise the price again so that a militia dropship cost more than a tank (they could have just lowered the price of tanks), and they also add a damn ceiling... CCP is just terrible at nerfing things, and it kind of scares me whenever people (including me) call attention to a balance issue because CCP might overdo it again. They really need to be more subtle with their nerfs, and stop nerfing something at the same time as buffing its counterpart (Vehicles and AV, hit detection and strafing). I'd agree with this... been playing EVE for damn near 9 years now, something I've noticed when a big enough group of people QQ about something rather than subjectively sitting down and deciding what to do. CCP will simple blap! an entire range of things. Most memorable to me was one Alliance Tournament the Gallente Cruiser (Thorax) was used considerably with a high-level of success. Everyone cried that Blasters were over-powered, damn near overnight CCP destroyed the damage output of ALL Hybrid weaponry to oblivion which yeah brought Blasters a little more in-line on Gallente ships with bonus' but in one swift swoop all destroyed the PvP ability of every single Caldari Gunboat as they used Hybrids but only had a Range Bonus over damage. With CCP there is impetus to show paying players that they listen, and I respect that in a huge way. What is needed from a mathematical, or game design, 'best practice' perspective, though, is to analyze certain chosen metrics- kills w/ x weapon on the server lets say. Then do minor hotfix tweaks to stats- for 2-3 days duration- of ONE (and only one) variable be it DPS, Dmg/Clip, Accuracy, recoil, missile range, etc etc etc and see how it affects the metric you chose. There are thousands of kills a day- should be enough to be statistically significant data. You then REVERT the changes, and try a different fix, and around and around, getting a good idea what variables effect what outcomes.
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 169	Posted - 2012.10.15 15:38:00 - [18] - Quote Illuminaughty-696 wrote: CCP: Please be more judicious in your use of the nerf. You have a proven tendency to overnerf. Take, for instance, the previous AV nerfs, then the unnerf of the AV AND the simultaneous nerf of vehicles (tanks especially). Now, you have overnerfed WPs/Precision Strikes. You nerfed two thing simultaneously, and once again, have overdone it. I appreciate your fix, however jury-rigged it may be, to address boosting and farming, but this is still overnerfing. Thank you. Recent nerf is a temporary fix to issue, a better fix will come soon. As for the tanks, the speed nerf was unnecessary. Its reduced turning speed greatly lowers acceleration and movement speed. Meanwhile, LAVs are becoming more effective in combat than tanks due to skill bonuses having more impact on them and less on tanks.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.15 16:06:00 - [19] - Quote Hopefully with lag and hitdetection looking up CCP can now start balancing and dumping content on us to break
Darth Tyrannnus Citadel Mercantile Exchange Amarr-Caldari Mercantile Exchange 26	Posted - 2012.10.15 16:10:00 - [20] - Quote Skytt Syysch wrote: Skihids wrote: WP gains were significantly reduced by lowering rewards on squad orders and things like nanohive rewards. At the same time the cost for a PS were increased. Together those actions have taken strikes from a twice a minute occurrence to the point I haven't seen one in a match. I still get them with the squads I've been playing with, but yeah it's like one per game, and it comes near the end of the game. unfortunantly, i've come across teams that manage 3-4 PS's per match. i do believe something is being exploited because when i check, the teams overall K/D was lower than ours, til;l the blew us all up anyway



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