DUST Search - The Inevitable Death of Dust 514

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Kai Sakuemi wrote:

Talruum Tezztarozza wrote:

Dusty Mokong wrote:

What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week?

Will that compromise be acceptable?

This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts.

Nah, this is worse. Corp war is intend for those EVE corp out there wrestling for galaxy domination. They will need flexibility to attack many different ditricts/planet in the same day/time of day. Putting a cap like this will annoying not only Dust player but EVE player as well.

Corp battle is battle for wealth (land and isk alike) not for SP grind. Like Lurchasaurus aid, let's the money be where it is and the sp where it is. Also, with this sp cap around I believe we will only need to go to pub game a few day a week. Then the rest of the week won't yield you any usable SP anyway.

This, pretty much.

As an example, think of 'regular' MMOs. You grind levels, but you also have raid-nights where you get together with your guild or whatever to stomp some skulls. You don't do both at the same time.

Grind is menial work that's necessary to progress. But you don't do menial work during the 'big game', do you? Athletes don't take their training weights out onto the track with them.

In a corp battle, your corp's interests are your driving force and your highest priority. What happens to that if you're still focused on getting your SP's at the end of it?

Why would we want to do Corp Battle's in the first place if we're not obligated to do so?

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crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:28:00 - [31] - Quote Not just loot. You should get back some of the stuff you lost in battle, just like in eve online. It's still a harsh world, but if you WIN, you get to loot both your side and their side. Have the same loot surival system as eve, give out loot at end of match. Everyone on winning side gets some of the gear they lost in battle back. Is that ok CCP? It's not injecting sp and isk into the market, but it's still rewarding the winning side with some reward. This is how it works in eve, if you lose a ship, but your side wins, you get your tech 2 damage mods back by luck, or some drones. Come on CCP step it up.
sixteen64 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:29:00 - [32] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Let me slide this past you..... You are in a corp battle against another corp. The other corp is made of your friends using trash characters standing in the same place waiting for your bullets. You get bajillions of SP. Game is broken. Corp battles do not and should not offer sp since you can potentially do something like this and i think CCP is smarter than you are giving them credit for. Corp battles might not be where the SP is at, but it sure as hell is going to be where the money is at... what you say makes sense, and boosters \ cheaters suck but at the same time, im just left wondering why even have skills to lvl up if were being dictated to when we can and cant have them, as it stands now it seems pointless, honestly, after 6 hours game time and have hit the sp cap already, its a ***** joke, we might as well have no sp skills and play based on gaming skill alone and if sp cap is due to boosters then WTF, how about ccp just ban the cunts, community police them, some vote to kick action, name and shame, dont play with the ***, id even go as far to say ** them and let them carry on, i see no reason why legit players should be punished for wanting to play long hours
Talruum Tezztarozza Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 73	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:31:00 - [33] - Quote Dusty Mokong wrote: What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts. Nah, this is worse. Corp war is intend for those EVE corp out there wrestling for galaxy domination. They will need flexibility to attack many different ditricts/planet in the same day/time of day. Putting a cap like this will annoying not only Dust player but EVE player as well. Corp battle is battle for wealth (land and isk alike) not for SP grind. Like Lurchasaurus aid, let's the money be where it is and the sp where it is. Also, with this sp cap around I believe we will only need to go to pub game a few day a week. Then the rest of the week won't yield you any usable SP anyway.
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 191	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:39:00 - [34] - Quote Dusty Mokong wrote: What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts. This would be extremely BAD. Once player corporations will be able to own districts and planets you will need to defend them. If half of your corp members can't join battles because they alreday met your proposed limit how are you going to defend your planet(s)? An attack in the EvE universe can start at any time of the day, if you don't have the numbers to defend your territory you will lose it.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:40:00 - [35] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Let me slide this past you..... You are in a corp battle against another corp. The other corp is made of your friends using trash characters standing in the same place waiting for your bullets. You get bajillions of SP. Game is broken. Corp battles do not and should not offer sp since you can potentially do something like this and i think CCP is smarter than you are giving them credit for. Corp battles might not be where the SP is at, but it sure as hell is going to be where the money is at... I'm not blind Lurch, I realized this long before I started the thread - but if we're going to let Boosters decide the fate of this game we might as well just remove vehicles, repair tools and active SP entirely. If we're going to make this game's only source of SP be instant matchmaking it's going to detract so much attention from the rest of this game and they might as well just not even implement it as it'd be an "optional" feature more than a fundamental gameplay aspect.
Kai Sakuemi Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 23	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:40:00 - [36] - Quote Talruum Tezztarozza wrote: Dusty Mokong wrote: What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts. Nah, this is worse. Corp war is intend for those EVE corp out there wrestling for galaxy domination. They will need flexibility to attack many different ditricts/planet in the same day/time of day. Putting a cap like this will annoying not only Dust player but EVE player as well. Corp battle is battle for wealth (land and isk alike) not for SP grind. Like Lurchasaurus aid, let's the money be where it is and the sp where it is. Also, with this sp cap around I believe we will only need to go to pub game a few day a week. Then the rest of the week won't yield you any usable SP anyway. This, pretty much. As an example, think of 'regular' MMOs. You grind levels, but you also have raid-nights where you get together with your guild or whatever to stomp some skulls. You don't do both at the same time. Grind is menial work that's necessary to progress. But you don't do menial work during the 'big game', do you? Athletes don't take their training weights out onto the track with them. In a corp battle, your corp's interests are your driving force and your highest priority. What happens to that if you're still focused on getting your SP's at the end of it?
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:40:00 - [37] - Quote Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: Dusty Mokong wrote: What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts. This would be extremely BAD. Once player corporations will be able to own districts and planets you will need to defend them. If half of your corp members can't join battles because they alreday met your proposed limit how are you going to defend your planet(s)? An attack in the EvE universe can start at any time of the day, if you don't have the numbers to defend your territory you will lose it. Right - but when they attack you don't suddenly stop gaining SP.
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 437	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:41:00 - [38] - Quote Null-sec (corp vs. corp) battles, unlike NPC based FW and instant matches , are going to be paying shitloads of ISK. So basically you get a choice, want ISK or SP?
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:41:00 - [39] - Quote Kai Sakuemi wrote: Talruum Tezztarozza wrote: Dusty Mokong wrote: What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts. Nah, this is worse. Corp war is intend for those EVE corp out there wrestling for galaxy domination. They will need flexibility to attack many different ditricts/planet in the same day/time of day. Putting a cap like this will annoying not only Dust player but EVE player as well. Corp battle is battle for wealth (land and isk alike) not for SP grind. Like Lurchasaurus aid, let's the money be where it is and the sp where it is. Also, with this sp cap around I believe we will only need to go to pub game a few day a week. Then the rest of the week won't yield you any usable SP anyway. This, pretty much. As an example, think of 'regular' MMOs. You grind levels, but you also have raid-nights where you get together with your guild or whatever to stomp some skulls. You don't do both at the same time. Grind is menial work that's necessary to progress. But you don't do menial work during the 'big game', do you? Athletes don't take their training weights out onto the track with them. In a corp battle, your corp's interests are your driving force and your highest priority. What happens to that if you're still focused on getting your SP's at the end of it? Why would we want to do Corp Battle's in the first place if we're not obligated to do so?
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:42:00 - [40] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Null-sec (corp vs. corp) battles, unlike NPC based FW and instant matches , are going to be paying shitloads of ISK. So basically you get a choice, want ISK or SP? I've got 5,000,000,000 isk. I don't need any more.

Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:43:00 - [41] - Quote Talruum Tezztarozza wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Cognac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Cognac wrote: Corp battles don't award any SP So what's the point of us doing Faction Warfare? Money , honour , bragging rights. Look at this quote. My understanding is that CCP Cognac replied to 843 pano that there will be no sp reward for corp battle which is understandable. I don't think he also meant Faction warefare will yield no sp reward as well. Just a quoting error perhap ? Did you miss the part where I asked about Faction Warfare - dude?
Kai Sakuemi Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 23	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:46:00 - [42] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Kai Sakuemi wrote: Talruum Tezztarozza wrote: Dusty Mokong wrote: What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts. Nah, this is worse. Corp war is intend for those EVE corp out there wrestling for galaxy domination. They will need flexibility to attack many different ditricts/planet in the same day/time of day. Putting a cap like this will annoying not only Dust player but EVE player as well. Corp battle is battle for wealth (land and isk alike) not for SP grind. Like Lurchasaurus aid, let's the money be where it is and the sp where it is. Also, with this sp cap around I believe we will only need to go to pub game a few day a week. Then the rest of the week won't yield you any usable SP anyway. This, pretty much. As an example, think of 'regular' MMOs. You grind levels, but you also have raid-nights where you get together with your guild or whatever to stomp some skulls. You don't do both at the same time. Grind is menial work that's necessary to progress. But you don't do menial work during the 'big game', do you? Athletes don't take their training weights out onto the track with them. In a corp battle, your corp's interests are your driving force and your highest priority. What happens to that if you're still focused on getting your SP's at the end of it? Why would we want to do Corp Battle's in the first place if we're not obligated to do so? Corp battles are for people who WANT to do them, not people who have to out of grinding necessity.
Kai Sakuemi Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 23	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:47:00 - [43] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: Dusty Mokong wrote: What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts. This would be extremely BAD. Once player corporations will be able to own districts and planets you will need to defend them. If half of your corp members can't join battles because they alreday met your proposed limit how are you going to defend your planet(s)? An attack in the EvE universe can start at any time of the day, if you don't have the numbers to defend your territory you will lose it. Right - but when they attack you don't suddenly stop gaining SP. I think SP grinding can wait 5 minutes while you fight off a pesky invasion. You don't NEED to be breathing SP every damn second.
KripnawtiQ Prime L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 206	Posted - 2012.10.03 07:09:00 - [44] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Null-sec (corp vs. corp) battles, unlike NPC based FW and instant matches , are going to be paying shitloads of ISK. So basically you get a choice, want ISK or SP? They would have to change the payout denominations for quickmatches for this to hold. With the current values its not that difficult for an above average player to consistently run trick gear.
Minmatar Slave 74136 Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 291	Posted - 2012.10.03 07:10:00 - [45] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: . Corp battles might not be where the SP is at, but it sure as hell is going to be where the money is at... I'd like it if the really tasty salvage be more likely to be had in corp battles/conquest mode as well, let the other game modes have more common salvage types with a lesser chance for the really nice stuff as a tradeoff.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.10.03 07:26:00 - [46] - Quote It kills a sandbox atmosphere to require certain actions in order to advance. I heard it suggested before that PVE was being considered as the place to grind out your isk (so you only PVP after grinding enough to actually pay to play). This is right along those lines and is a similar awful idea, but I don't doubt someone thought it was and is the current structure of the game. Speak up and we might be able to change it.
Vexen Krios Doomheim 95	Posted - 2012.10.03 07:27:00 - [47] - Quote from what i understand of the idea of this game is pretty much the faction warfare and corp battles thats what everyone seems to have been waiting for. if no sp gain for corp battles is what were going to expect then we can also expect some corps to operate a few months or so mainly in the instant battles to boost up their skills and then join the corp battles to have the edge over everyone else. Personally i dont wanna spend years to upgrade my characters skills in all instant matches. if everyone wants to do corp battles rather than instan battles then its going to be corp vs corp with all militia gear, milita weapons, modules and ect. And if all ccp made dust for is to try to bring players to eve then its going to end in an epic fail.
Talruum Tezztarozza Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 73	Posted - 2012.10.03 07:36:00 - [48] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I've got 5,000,000,000 isk. I don't need any more. Those FPS console players who play Dust exclusively will. Those EVE players, no matter how many billion of isk they have, can't hold any single planet, I meant district. If they suck at FPS and don't hire any good dust playera¦â If you are both kind of player and still don't interest to win a planet on your own, why are you here ? Aeon Amadi wrote: Did you miss the part where I asked about Faction Warfare - dude? Nope I didn't miss it my good sir. Like I said it look more like a quoting error on Cognac part to me. May be he mistaken faction warfare with corp battle from quick quoting ? That was just my observation. If you do have a link to original post I would appreciate it. So I can see the whole conversation.
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 191	Posted - 2012.10.03 07:38:00 - [49] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Logi Bro wrote: I lol'd at the change of name. Faction warfare is not the basis of this game, shooting people in the face is. As long as CCP provides a stable game(not looking good ATM) with solid gunplay, people will play this game. Solid gunplay is one thing but if the only way to get character progression is through instant matchmaking then I have no reason to play this. Victory should not be attained -SOLELY- by team deathmatch. WHY everyone complain about no SP for corp battles? There is the PASSIVE SP GAIN you know? And nothing stop you from making a squad with your corpmates and kill people in random games. And remember that we will have PVE too, that will probably give us SP.
Ekull Zekariah 117	Posted - 2012.10.03 07:49:00 - [50] - Quote Zion Shad wrote: I do not agree with the No SP in Corp Battles. Quote: [9:12:19 PM]: It would completely remove any incentive to delve into Eve Online's aspects of Factional Warfare/Null-Sec Sovereignty holding. There would be no reason to do so as money earned from those are -completely- overshadowed by ISK donations from Capsuleers. There should be progressively better rewards for branching out and delving into the rabbit hole - not less. At this rate it's going to completely gut any aspect of introducing new players to what the game has to offer. I see this happening With Corps setting up Dummy Corp to grab the contracts, they will only be doing this to pad their KDRs and Win/Lose rat for leader boards, not for SP due to the SP Cap. Please Support this Post by giving it a Plus 1. +1 from me. The SP cap will deal with those trying to do the wrong thing, but FW should be AS rewarding, if not MORE than Instant battles.

Talruum Tezztarozza Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 73	Posted - 2012.10.03 07:57:00 - [51] - Quote KripnawtiQ Prime wrote: They would have to change the payout denominations for quickmatches for this to hold. With the current values its not that difficult for an above average player to consistently run trick gear. Yea, I suspect these pub game reward will be toned down ALOT when the game is released. So we shouldn't afford anything much higher than militia gear or simply not worth it. Minmatar Slave 74136 wrote: I'd like it if the really tasty salvage be more likely to be had in corp battles/conquest mode as well, let the other game modes have more common salvage types with a lesser chance for the really nice stuff as a tradeoff. From what I understand salvage loot at the end of match is based on player gear wrecked in that particular battle (or that was what they plan anyway). So we should get this in effect by itself unless someone decide to run around in pub game with proto set. Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: WHY everyone complain about no SP for corp battles? There is the PASSIVE SP GAIN you know? And nothing stop you from making a squad with your corpmates and kill people in random games. And remember that we will have PVE too, that will probably give us SP. Agreed, And many people seem to forget that we are getting SP cap. So we won't SP grind 24/7 anyway. And corp battel ?? I don't think it will happen that frequency either. It's not likely that EVE corp will have captial to fund a planet raiding all over galaxy daily nor do they want to.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.10.03 08:00:00 - [52] - Quote Maybe ccp meant no more 1million sp for playing in corp battle, like the events we had? If that was what they meant, corp battle could give same sp as insta-battle. Sp farming could be stopped by not giving wp for team inflicted damage being repaired, unless that is a code nightmare. At least till they think of another method. Besides, farming sp would be easier in pve then a corp match anyway.
Vane KoS Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 30	Posted - 2012.10.03 08:10:00 - [53] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Logi Bro wrote: I lol'd at the change of name. Faction warfare is not the basis of this game, shooting people in the face is. As long as CCP provides a stable game(not looking good ATM) with solid gunplay, people will play this game. Solid gunplay is one thing but if the only way to get character progression is through instant matchmaking then I have no reason to play this. Victory should not be attained -SOLELY- by team deathmatch. I don't get this. If we look at Eve there is no SP reward but people play so why should SP gain be such a big issue in dust ? Its likely anyway that the weekly cap will have been reached by many players so the corp battles could just be fun. Anyway I don't suppose FW will be the big thing in Dust once its got all its features. I guess with a hard SP cap inplace it would not harm for SP to be awarded in all battles and for corps which would like to spend all their time doing this rather than instant battles it would be quite cool. So over all a +1 for the thread - but not sure it is quite so big a deal as it will kill of Dust. EDIT: Actually I think also you under estimate the pull of the pissing contest. Again relating this back to Eve my chosen avenue of fun is small scale pvp in NPC 0.0. We absolutely do not make money and of course SP is not an issue. It is all about the fight - about the trap, or engaging against stupid odds and winning or loosing gloriously. I have an industry character which makes me isk so that I can field any ship I choose, but I couldn't say I enjoy industry. Anyway over-all I see your point however I am not sure its so drastic as you think (and I would actually like to get some SP from everything I can)
xxDIRTYxx 0	Posted - 2012.10.03 08:21:00 - [54] - Quote I just want to take over planets, districts & installations... for the Power!!!
jenza aranda BetaMax. 1005	Posted - 2012.10.03 08:25:00 - [55] - Quote if anything i do think that corp battles and FW should have more SP as an incentive
Xiree Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 55	Posted - 2012.10.03 08:38:00 - [56] - Quote Its well become apparent -- I think this should be addressed. Most of the [CCP] people on here are only forum moderators. They are about as up-to-date on the facts as you and I. The actual developers, I persume do not even post on the forums. You get ISK and SP for battles. We are only doing Instant battles. By the seeding system starting -- If you followed inside any of the presentations at http://www.dust514.com/media/ You will find that the essential instant battle seeding system, is the tree-system of connectivity from Dust514 to EVE. That means they are testing integrations and the integrity... The stability of it and how fast it can launch and stay stable on the fly. We are now testing cued - precision strikes. The precision strikes right now, are all automated... During the REAL game. They will not be automated.... It will be required for their to be a ship in orbit. If you have any problems getting the Percision strikes to work... Make a post of it. [CCP] Cognac is a forum moderator [CCP] Frame < Is assumed to be the head forum moderator in charge of the others moderators. They do not work on the game. They are given notes and explain them to the best of their ability. They are also told to forward bugs to others and told to watch what people are experiencing. They are so-so in doing just that... When they want to appear to be here. This game will not fail... We are just seeing the tip of the ice berg.
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.10.03 08:47:00 - [57] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: It kills a sandbox atmosphere to require certain actions in order to advance. I heard it suggested before that PVE was being considered as the place to grind out your isk (so you only PVP after grinding enough to actually pay to play). This is right along those lines and is a similar awful idea, but I don't doubt someone thought it was and is the current structure of the game. Speak up and we might be able to change it. For weeks, if not months, I said that Matchmaking would have limited the sandbox elements: I was ignored. I said that PVE was a bad idea because PVE works in RPG but not in competitive FPS: I was ignored. For weeks I said that CCP was creating restrictions and divisions to something that should have been "one universe, one war". I was ignored all the time. Also there is a far bigger problem. I said that newbies would have had serious disadvantages when put against veterans (see this) because of statistical disadvantages and what people here told me is "veterans will not use matchmaking, there will be no problems". Now is clear that veterans WILL use matchmaking and those balance issues will eventually contribute to Dust "inevitable death". In the end nobody listened to me, CCP didn't take what I said seriously nor did players, and here we are trying to save a game form "inevitable death". Death in beta. Now, we could all just play Dust 514 FOR FUN...but then Dust is such a poor FPS so I don't see this as the solution to our problems.
sixteen64 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2012.10.03 08:50:00 - [58] - Quote Quote: I don't get this. If we look at Eve there is no SP reward but people play so why should SP gain be such a big issue in dust ? Because without a healthy dose of sp and lvl'ing up, what else do we have?.... feels like a chinese knock off of halo
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.03 10:50:00 - [59] - Quote We haven't even finished testing features THAT ARE IMPLEMENTED. Why are we getting into this argument already? Also, DOOOOOOOOMEEEEED. Doooooooooommmmmmmed. iiiiineeeeevitaaaaable.... IIIIIIIIINEEEEEVIIIITABLE.... Oh NOE -- they're talking about implementing a game mode that won't attract skillpoint farmers & will promote legitimate gameplay in serious situations. Factional Warfare & district control battles will have much deeper & more meaningful consequences to them beyond all of the other match types we play. They're going to be the matches that effect change in new eden. I can't wait until we have a chance to break them, even if they aren't going to be dishing out SP in the matches for it.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.10.03 11:19:00 - [60] - Quote I didn't read all pages in this thread so forgive me if I repeat someone but.... The incentive would be capturing territory. In other fps games, you may play clan battles but unranked. So, it doesn't count towards your KD or exp points. Capping and holding territorry will be the point of it all.



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