DUST Search - The Inevitable Death of Dust 514

Kai Sakuemi wrote:

Talruum Tezztarozza wrote:

Dusty Mokong wrote:

What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week?

Will that compromise be acceptable?

This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts.

Nah, this is worse. Corp war is intend for those EVE corp out there wrestling for galaxy domination. They will need flexibility to attack many different ditricts/planet in the same day/time of day. Putting a cap like this will annoying not only Dust player but EVE player as well.

Corp battle is battle for wealth (land and isk alike) not for SP grind. Like Lurchasaurus aid, let's the money be where it is and the sp where it is. Also, with this sp cap around I believe we will only need to go to pub game a few day a week. Then the rest of the week won't yield you any usable SP anyway.

This, pretty much.

As an example, think of 'regular' MMOs. You grind levels, but you also have raid-nights where you get together with your guild or whatever to stomp some skulls. You don't do both at the same time.

Grind is menial work that's necessary to progress. But you don't do menial work during the 'big game', do you? Athletes don't take their training weights out onto the track with them.

In a corp battle, your corp's interests are your driving force and your highest priority. What happens to that if you're still focused on getting your SP's at the end of it?


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Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.02 18:06:00 - [1] - Quote Felt this needed it's own thread. According to CCP we will -not- be getting SP rewards for corporation battles and/or faction warfare battles. When asked what reward(s) we would be getting: "Money , honour , bragging rights." To which I say, why would we want to do it for ISK if we can just give our dust mercs/corporation(s) money from Eve Online? What's the incentive other than putting a flag on the district..? Why was the decision made so that character progression can -only- occur through instant matchmaking? I honestly think we should work this out. Discuss. EDIT: Added information posted in a more recent post to outline negatives and positives as best I can. Feel free to suggest add-ons. Not having SP rewards for Corp Battles does make sense as a method of combat against Dummy Corps. However, there are some issues that go against this ideal. Active SP gain has diminishing returns over the course of a week with the new system in play. Active SP is eventually capped at a certain point, according to allegation. Passive SP seems to be slower than it previously was by now being at an interval of decimals rather than whole numbers. Boosting will happen no matter what - having such restrictions will not deter boosters it will only encourage them to find other ways to find the easiest way to gain SP. There is absolutely no evidence that SP rewards will be beneficial or detrimental as it has not been implemented yet, and avoiding doing so will only ensure that we will never know the outcome of what would happen if it -WERE- used as a reward. ISK Rewards for a Corporation Battle - when tied into the ideal that Dummy Corps could use it to generate isk - don't necessarily apply in that manner. Collateral must be paid by one corporation or the other and is essentially lost when they do not win. Rewards are such that (in theory) you receive the collateral the other corporation has paid as your reward. With the system mentioned above - if you win, you gain isk as a corporation. If you lose, you lose your collateral. In the event that you try to abuse the system with two corporations under one banner, you are technically not gaining/losing anything. ISK being the fundamental drive for Corporation Battles and anything besides Instant Matchmaking would detract from what this game has to offer. Here's how. Eventually all players will learn what they can afford to lose and will become familiar with that, eventually making profit and knowing when to quit while they're ahead. Dust corporations with Eve Online support need not worry about ISK at all as the disparity is huge - Capsuleers earning exponentially higher amounts in a short amount of time (but also risking more). Salvage will be (eventually) be able to be sold on the market and will further increase rewards, even if it's just selling what you dislike/cannot use. SP Not being available in -all- aspects of the game is detrimental for multiple reasons. It detracts from delving into the rabbit hole - rather - seeing all of what New Eden has to offer. Politics, persistent territory, meaningful consequences etc. It forces players to grind on Instant Matchmaking, even if they dislike that style of play, in order to gain character progression. Not gaining SP is similar to saying that you are not gaining experience from the battle - basically losing the memory of the event entirely in a more "lore" aspect. On the assumption that you lose, you are losing a very large amount of ISK with little to no gain. This includes (but is surely not limited to) All suits lost, all gear lost, and the corporation's collateral. This makes the risk involved substantially high and it might even go so far as to detract smaller corporations from ever wanting to participate at all. [*] It discourages teamplay and socialization in Dust 514 - not all players will want to join a corporation just to increase their coffers.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.02 18:13:00 - [2] - Quote crazy space wrote: UK your mistaken. We get sp but no isk. We always get sp get killing stuff. FW won't have isk payouts just like in eve online. Bit I'm sure it'll have some kind of loyalty point store. CCP Cognac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Cognac wrote: 843 pano wrote: Is there a failsafe to stop parent corps from creating a scrimmage corp that can take up the contract against its parent corp so that the parent corp can boost off of the scrimmage corp game? I smell a ton of corp boosting coming... Corp battles don't award any SP So what's the point of us doing Faction Warfare? Money , honour , bragging rights.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:51:00 - [3] - Quote So inevitably this is going to be the death of Dust 514 - in my opinion. If ISK is the only reward for Corp Battles/Faction Warfare than there's really no point in doing them what with Capsuleers being able to transfer isk to dust mercenaries. If the only way you can get SP is through Instant Matchmaking then this game literally just made a dramatic shift in favor of the FPS gun-game in the aspect of riskless reward. Sure, you lose dropsuits and gear but beyond that you lose absolutely nothing for the sake of gaining SP. I understand that this was put in place as a means of preventing boosting but if we're going to do that why don't we take even more drastic measures and just remove repair tools entirely? That was sarcasm - but my point is still valid.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:58:00 - [4] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: I lol'd at the change of name. Faction warfare is not the basis of this game, shooting people in the face is. As long as CCP provides a stable game(not looking good ATM) with solid gunplay, people will play this game. Solid gunplay is one thing but if the only way to get character progression is through instant matchmaking then I have no reason to play this. Victory should not be attained -SOLELY- by team deathmatch.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:59:00 - [5] - Quote Ludwig Van Beatdropin wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Felt this needed it's own thread. According to CCP we will -not- be getting SP rewards for corporation battles and/or faction warfare battles. When asked what reward(s) we would be getting: "Money , honour , bragging rights." To which I say, why would we want to do it for ISK if we can just give our dust mercs/corporation(s) money from Eve Online? What's the incentive other than putting a flag on the district..? I honestly think we should work this out. Discuss. What more do you want? Persistent consequence - as par traditional New Eden style. As stated in my post above if the only way to get character progression is by the team deathmatch instant matchmaking then I (and more than likely many others) will no longer even bother with this game.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:03:00 - [6] - Quote JoshuaEvil666 wrote: what they get is more interest in eve , more people will learn, hey if i make an eve account and pay for the sub i can pve for a few hours in eve and have enough iskies for all the uber suits and guns for my dust merc for a week ! which = more suscribers and more profit for ccp- they cant lose. :) No offense but that logic is counter productive. It detracts from having a desire to do corporate battles for anything other than a pissing contest.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:11:00 - [7] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: JoshuaEvil666 wrote: what they get is more interest in eve , more people will learn, hey if i make an eve account and pay for the sub i can pve for a few hours in eve and have enough iskies for all the uber suits and guns for my dust merc for a week ! which = more suscribers and more profit for ccp- they cant lose. :) No offense but that logic is counter productive. It detracts from having a desire to do corporate battles for anything other than a pissing contest. I'm kind of confused about this, myself. Obviously we're all always gaining passive SP, but having the high-sec matchmaking system as the only means of active SP gain just seems very odd. It would completely remove any incentive to delve into Eve Online's aspects of Factional Warfare/Null-Sec Sovereignty holding. There would be no reason to do so as money earned from those are -completely- overshadowed by ISK donations from Capsuleers. There should be progressively better rewards for branching out and delving into the rabbit hole - not less. At this rate it's going to completely gut any aspect of introducing new players to what the game has to offer.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 05:39:00 - [8] - Quote Taking planets is one thing but if it's just for the sake of taking the planet, no-one is going to want to do it when they're losing dropsuits and gear. Isk reward is one thing but if they're not getting character progression (sp) then it's a single-edged sword. Even then, taking planets for faction warfare (which is all that will be available to us at first) isn't claiming it for -your- corporation. It's claiming it for the faction you've chosen to be with - and the reward is more than likely going to be in the form of isk and/or standings.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:40:00 - [9] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Let me slide this past you..... You are in a corp battle against another corp. The other corp is made of your friends using trash characters standing in the same place waiting for your bullets. You get bajillions of SP. Game is broken. Corp battles do not and should not offer sp since you can potentially do something like this and i think CCP is smarter than you are giving them credit for. Corp battles might not be where the SP is at, but it sure as hell is going to be where the money is at... I'm not blind Lurch, I realized this long before I started the thread - but if we're going to let Boosters decide the fate of this game we might as well just remove vehicles, repair tools and active SP entirely. If we're going to make this game's only source of SP be instant matchmaking it's going to detract so much attention from the rest of this game and they might as well just not even implement it as it'd be an "optional" feature more than a fundamental gameplay aspect.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:40:00 - [10] - Quote Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: Dusty Mokong wrote: What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts. This would be extremely BAD. Once player corporations will be able to own districts and planets you will need to defend them. If half of your corp members can't join battles because they alreday met your proposed limit how are you going to defend your planet(s)? An attack in the EvE universe can start at any time of the day, if you don't have the numbers to defend your territory you will lose it. Right - but when they attack you don't suddenly stop gaining SP.

Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:41:00 - [11] - Quote Kai Sakuemi wrote: Talruum Tezztarozza wrote: Dusty Mokong wrote: What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts. Nah, this is worse. Corp war is intend for those EVE corp out there wrestling for galaxy domination. They will need flexibility to attack many different ditricts/planet in the same day/time of day. Putting a cap like this will annoying not only Dust player but EVE player as well. Corp battle is battle for wealth (land and isk alike) not for SP grind. Like Lurchasaurus aid, let's the money be where it is and the sp where it is. Also, with this sp cap around I believe we will only need to go to pub game a few day a week. Then the rest of the week won't yield you any usable SP anyway. This, pretty much. As an example, think of 'regular' MMOs. You grind levels, but you also have raid-nights where you get together with your guild or whatever to stomp some skulls. You don't do both at the same time. Grind is menial work that's necessary to progress. But you don't do menial work during the 'big game', do you? Athletes don't take their training weights out onto the track with them. In a corp battle, your corp's interests are your driving force and your highest priority. What happens to that if you're still focused on getting your SP's at the end of it? Why would we want to do Corp Battle's in the first place if we're not obligated to do so?
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:42:00 - [12] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Null-sec (corp vs. corp) battles, unlike NPC based FW and instant matches , are going to be paying shitloads of ISK. So basically you get a choice, want ISK or SP? I've got 5,000,000,000 isk. I don't need any more.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:43:00 - [13] - Quote Talruum Tezztarozza wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Cognac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Cognac wrote: Corp battles don't award any SP So what's the point of us doing Faction Warfare? Money , honour , bragging rights. Look at this quote. My understanding is that CCP Cognac replied to 843 pano that there will be no sp reward for corp battle which is understandable. I don't think he also meant Faction warefare will yield no sp reward as well. Just a quoting error perhap ? Did you miss the part where I asked about Faction Warfare - dude?
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 14:40:00 - [14] - Quote Jax GG wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Felt this needed it's own thread. According to CCP we will -not- be getting SP rewards for corporation battles and/or faction warfare battles. When asked what reward(s) we would be getting: "Money , honour , bragging rights." To which I say, why would we want to do it for ISK if we can just give our dust mercs/corporation(s) money from Eve Online? What's the incentive other than putting a flag on the district..? Why was the decision made so that character progression can -only- occur through instant matchmaking? I honestly think we should work this out. Discuss. 1. How the hell are people talking about the death of DUST before it's even released? Is it because once it's released they can't possibly change anything? Are they not allowed to patch things? Are you a drama student? 2. I missed the part where only wealthy EvE players were allowed to play OR are you offering to support your entire corp? If that is the case can I join? Regards Jax I'm responding to this because you're not seeing between the lines and choosing to only read the title of the situation than have some foresight to the problem at hand. There is going to be a point where you have more isk than you know what to do with - eventually you're going to be making more isk than you're losing in battle because you become familiar with how much -YOU- as a player lose. If you die more than others you'll start using less expensive gear to balance that out. Alternatively if you don't die as much you'll use the more expensive gear - either way you'll be familiar with this and eventually come up with your own system to still make a profit even after a few losses. When that happens, you'll be sitting on a pile of ISK you won't know what to spend on. The end game is not having to worry about isk to do what you want to do. Saying you don't get ISK from a corp battle is entirely different and that's why there's this competitive nature in the rewards for corp battles as of current. Two corporations put up collateral, they duke it out, and one walks home empty handed. Why? Because they can already afford to do that. Corp battles aren't about isk so making that the only reward is going to be just silly. The reason we're not including SP gain is to combat boosters - but as I and a multitude of others have said - diminishing returns and a weekly hard cap prevent that from occurring anyway. So the only thing you're really left with is Honor/Bragging Rights - which in Eve Online don't account for anything. No-one cares about your petty victories except for you because war is a daily thing and everyone has their own agenda. Edit: To expand on this - I want to ask a question for everyone in the community. Should Instant Matchmaking be an "optional" feature over all that Eve Online has to offer ? -OR- Should Territorial Gain be an "optional" feature over Instant Matchmaking?
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 18:59:00 - [15] - Quote MofaceKilla wrote: Hey Aeon, I initially disagreed with you when you brought this up in IRC yesterday. After reading all this I'm on your side. The only valid argument AGAINST SP in Corp battles is boosters, but in the end, who cares how the boosters reach the weekly cap? They're going to do it, it's inevitable and it doesn't matter whether the cap is reached by instant battles or corp battles, they're getting the same amount in the end. I'm hoping more people see the light of this - but I'm still remaining skeptical as well =P
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.04 05:16:00 - [16] - Quote I'll bite. Not having SP rewards for Corp Battles does make sense as a method of combat against Dummy Corps. However, there are some issues that go against this ideal. Active SP gain has diminishing returns over the course of a week with the new system in play. Active SP is eventually capped at a certain point, according to allegation. Passive SP seems to be slower than it previously was by now being at an interval of decimals rather than whole numbers. Boosting will happen no matter what - having such restrictions will not deter boosters it will only encourage them to find other ways to find the easiest way to gain SP. There is absolutely no evidence that SP rewards will be beneficial or detrimental as it has not been implemented yet, and avoiding doing so will only ensure that we will never know the outcome of what would happen if it -WERE- used as a reward. ISK Rewards for a Corporation Battle - when tied into the ideal that Dummy Corps could use it to generate isk - don't necessarily apply in that manner. Collateral must be paid by one corporation or the other and is essentially lost when they do not win. Rewards are such that (in theory) you receive the collateral the other corporation has paid as your reward. With the system mentioned above - if you win, you gain isk as a corporation. If you lose, you lose your collateral. In the event that you try to abuse the system with two corporations under one banner, you are technically not gaining/losing anything. ISK being the fundamental drive for Corporation Battles and anything besides Instant Matchmaking would detract from what this game has to offer. Here's how. Eventually all players will learn what they can afford to lose and will become familiar with that, eventually making profit and knowing when to quit while they're ahead. Dust corporations with Eve Online support need not worry about ISK at all as the disparity is huge - Capsuleers earning exponentially higher amounts in a short amount of time (but also risking more). Salvage will be (eventually) be able to be sold on the market and will further increase rewards, even if it's just selling what you dislike/cannot use. SP Not being available in -all- aspects of the game is detrimental for multiple reasons. It detracts from delving into the rabbit hole - rather - seeing all of what New Eden has to offer. Politics, persistent territory, meaningful consequences etc. It forces players to grind on Instant Matchmaking, even if they dislike that style of play, in order to gain character progression. Not gaining SP is similar to saying that you are not gaining experience from the battle - basically losing the memory of the event entirely in a more "lore" aspect. On the assumption that you lose, you are losing a very large amount of ISK with little to no gain. This includes (but is surely not limited to) All suits lost, all gear lost, and the corporation's collateral. This makes the risk involved substantially high and it might even go so far as to detract smaller corporations from ever wanting to participate at all. [*] It discourages teamplay and socialization in Dust 514 - not all players will want to join a corporation just to increase their coffers.