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The Inevitable Death of Dust 514

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Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.02 18:06:00 - [1] - Quote Felt this needed it's own thread. According to CCP we will -not- be getting SP rewards for corporation battles and/or faction warfare battles. When asked what reward(s) we would be getting: "Money , honour , bragging rights." To which I say, why would we want to do it for ISK if we can just give our dust mercs/corporation(s) money from Eve Online? What's the incentive other than putting a flag on the district..? Why was the decision made so that character progression can -only- occur through instant matchmaking? I honestly think we should work this out. Discuss. EDIT: Added information posted in a more recent post to outline negatives and positives as best I can. Feel free to suggest add-ons. Not having SP rewards for Corp Battles does make sense as a method of combat against Dummy Corps. However, there are some issues that go against this ideal. Active SP gain has diminishing returns over the course of a week with the new system in play. Active SP is eventually capped at a certain point, according to allegation. Passive SP seems to be slower than it previously was by now being at an interval of decimals rather than whole numbers. Boosting will happen no matter what - having such restrictions will not deter boosters it will only encourage them to find other ways to find the easiest way to gain SP. There is absolutely no evidence that SP rewards will be beneficial or detrimental as it has not been implemented yet, and avoiding doing so will only ensure that we will never know the outcome of what would happen if it -WERE- used as a reward. ISK Rewards for a Corporation Battle - when tied into the ideal that Dummy Corps could use it to generate isk - don't necessarily apply in that manner. Collateral must be paid by one corporation or the other and is essentially lost when they do not win. Rewards are such that (in theory) you receive the collateral the other corporation has paid as your reward. With the system mentioned above - if you win, you gain isk as a corporation. If you lose, you lose your collateral. In the event that you try to abuse the system with two corporations under one banner, you are technically not gaining/losing anything. ISK being the fundamental drive for Corporation Battles and anything besides Instant Matchmaking would detract from what this game has to offer. Here's how. Eventually all players will learn what they can afford to lose and will become familiar with that, eventually making profit and knowing when to quit while they're ahead. Dust corporations with Eve Online support need not worry about ISK at all as the disparity is huge - Capsuleers earning exponentially higher amounts in a short amount of time (but also risking more). Salvage will be (eventually) be able to be sold on the market and will further increase rewards, even if it's just selling what you dislike/cannot use. SP Not being available in -all- aspects of the game is detrimental for multiple reasons. It detracts from delving into the rabbit hole - rather - seeing all of what New Eden has to offer. Politics, persistent territory, meaningful consequences etc. It forces players to grind on Instant Matchmaking, even if they dislike that style of play, in order to gain character progression. Not gaining SP is similar to saying that you are not gaining experience from the battle - basically losing the memory of the event entirely in a more "lore" aspect. On the assumption that you lose, you are losing a very large amount of ISK with little to no gain. This includes (but is surely not limited to) All suits lost, all gear lost, and the corporation's collateral. This makes the risk involved substantially high and it might even go so far as to detract smaller corporations from ever wanting to participate at all. [*] It discourages teamplay and socialization in Dust 514 - not all players will want to join a corporation just to increase their coffers.
crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.10.02 18:10:00 - [2] - Quote UK your mistaken. We get sp but no isk. We always get sp get killing stuff. FW won't have isk payouts just like in eve online. Bit I'm sure it'll have some kind of loyalty point store.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.02 18:13:00 - [3] - Quote crazy space wrote: UK your mistaken. We get sp but no isk. We always get sp get killing stuff. FW won't have isk payouts just like in eve online. Bit I'm sure it'll have some kind of loyalty point store. CCP Cognac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Cognac wrote: 843 pano wrote: Is there a failsafe to stop parent corps from creating a scrimmage corp that can take up the contract against its parent corp so that the parent corp can boost off of the scrimmage corp game? I smell a ton of corp boosting coming... Corp battles don't award any SP So what's the point of us doing Faction Warfare? Money , honour , bragging rights.
843 pano 843 Boot Camp 200	Posted - 2012.10.02 18:14:00 - [4] - Quote I vote for all the loot the loosing team lost during the battle. I am fine with no SP because it will stop the corp from making a sparring corp and boosting. But, more than just ISK and a flag would be nice.
Terminus Decimus 37	Posted - 2012.10.02 18:31:00 - [5] - Quote So if you only serve your Corporation and do Corp. battles then you will never be able to skill up? Seems counter productive to the way fighting wars should be. You fight a lot for your Corp/Nation you get experiance from it and can do things better, but in Soviet New Eden Experience gains you.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:51:00 - [6] - Quote So inevitably this is going to be the death of Dust 514 - in my opinion. If ISK is the only reward for Corp Battles/Faction Warfare than there's really no point in doing them what with Capsuleers being able to transfer isk to dust mercenaries. If the only way you can get SP is through Instant Matchmaking then this game literally just made a dramatic shift in favor of the FPS gun-game in the aspect of riskless reward. Sure, you lose dropsuits and gear but beyond that you lose absolutely nothing for the sake of gaining SP. I understand that this was put in place as a means of preventing boosting but if we're going to do that why don't we take even more drastic measures and just remove repair tools entirely? That was sarcasm - but my point is still valid.
Logi Bro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 836	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:54:00 - [7] - Quote I lol'd at the change of name. Faction warfare is not the basis of this game, shooting people in the face is. As long as CCP provides a stable game(not looking good ATM) with solid gunplay, people will play this game.
Ludwig Van Beatdropin Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 195	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:55:00 - [8] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Felt this needed it's own thread. According to CCP we will -not- be getting SP rewards for corporation battles and/or faction warfare battles. When asked what reward(s) we would be getting: "Money , honour , bragging rights." To which I say, why would we want to do it for ISK if we can just give our dust mercs/corporation(s) money from Eve Online? What's the incentive other than putting a flag on the district..? I honestly think we should work this out. Discuss. What more do you want?
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:58:00 - [9] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: I lol'd at the change of name. Faction warfare is not the basis of this game, shooting people in the face is. As long as CCP provides a stable game(not looking good ATM) with solid gunplay, people will play this game. Solid gunplay is one thing but if the only way to get character progression is through instant matchmaking then I have no reason to play this. Victory should not be attained -SOLELY- by team deathmatch.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 03:59:00 - [10] - Quote Ludwig Van Beatdropin wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Felt this needed it's own thread. According to CCP we will -not- be getting SP rewards for corporation battles and/or faction warfare battles. When asked what reward(s) we would be getting: "Money , honour , bragging rights." To which I say, why would we want to do it for ISK if we can just give our dust mercs/corporation(s) money from Eve Online? What's the incentive other than putting a flag on the district..? I honestly think we should work this out. Discuss. What more do you want? Persistent consequence - as par traditional New Eden style. As stated in my post above if the only way to get character progression is by the team deathmatch instant matchmaking then I (and more than likely many others) will no longer even bother with this game.

JoshuaEvil666 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 33	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:02:00 - [11] - Quote what they get is more interest in eve , more people will learn, hey if i make an eve account and pay for the sub i can pve for a few hours in eve and have enough iskies for all the uber suits and guns for my dust merc for a week ! which = more suscribers and more profit for ccp- they cant lose. :)
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:03:00 - [12] - Quote JoshuaEvil666 wrote: what they get is more interest in eve , more people will learn, hey if i make an eve account and pay for the sub i can pve for a few hours in eve and have enough iskies for all the uber suits and guns for my dust merc for a week ! which = more suscribers and more profit for ccp- they cant lose. :) No offense but that logic is counter productive. It detracts from having a desire to do corporate battles for anything other than a pissing contest.
JoshuaEvil666 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 33	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:05:00 - [13] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: JoshuaEvil666 wrote: what they get is more interest in eve , more people will learn, hey if i make an eve account and pay for the sub i can pve for a few hours in eve and have enough iskies for all the uber suits and guns for my dust merc for a week ! which = more suscribers and more profit for ccp- they cant lose. :) No offense but that logic is counter productive. It detracts from having a desire to do corporate battles for anything other than a pissing contest. the idea for corp battles WAS there years ago for sov holdings, but that is too difficult to pull off or something i guess so now they are darn near for nothing, just for pissing matches and we won and you didnt sort of stuffs its all about aurum and plex sales now and i am fine with that after playing eve since beta i am still having fun logging in every day and dust is pretty neat so its all good to me, i can deal with no better reward from corp battles since my game now is waving my eppens at everyone in local anyway
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:09:00 - [14] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: JoshuaEvil666 wrote: what they get is more interest in eve , more people will learn, hey if i make an eve account and pay for the sub i can pve for a few hours in eve and have enough iskies for all the uber suits and guns for my dust merc for a week ! which = more suscribers and more profit for ccp- they cant lose. :) No offense but that logic is counter productive. It detracts from having a desire to do corporate battles for anything other than a pissing contest. I'm kind of confused about this, myself. Obviously we're all always gaining passive SP, but having the high-sec matchmaking system as the only means of active SP gain just seems very odd.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:11:00 - [15] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: JoshuaEvil666 wrote: what they get is more interest in eve , more people will learn, hey if i make an eve account and pay for the sub i can pve for a few hours in eve and have enough iskies for all the uber suits and guns for my dust merc for a week ! which = more suscribers and more profit for ccp- they cant lose. :) No offense but that logic is counter productive. It detracts from having a desire to do corporate battles for anything other than a pissing contest. I'm kind of confused about this, myself. Obviously we're all always gaining passive SP, but having the high-sec matchmaking system as the only means of active SP gain just seems very odd. It would completely remove any incentive to delve into Eve Online's aspects of Factional Warfare/Null-Sec Sovereignty holding. There would be no reason to do so as money earned from those are -completely- overshadowed by ISK donations from Capsuleers. There should be progressively better rewards for branching out and delving into the rabbit hole - not less. At this rate it's going to completely gut any aspect of introducing new players to what the game has to offer.
Adaris Manpher 70	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:14:00 - [16] - Quote I can see a point about dummy corps but at the same time we should get SP that is for sure
Zion Shad ZionTCD Legacy Rising 1620	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:14:00 - [17] - Quote I do not agree with the No SP in Corp Battles. Quote: [9:12:19 PM]: It would completely remove any incentive to delve into Eve Online's aspects of Factional Warfare/Null-Sec Sovereignty holding. There would be no reason to do so as money earned from those are -completely- overshadowed by ISK donations from Capsuleers. There should be progressively better rewards for branching out and delving into the rabbit hole - not less. At this rate it's going to completely gut any aspect of introducing new players to what the game has to offer. I see this happening With Corps setting up Dummy Corp to grab the contracts, they will only be doing this to pad their KDRs and Win/Lose rat for leader boards, not for SP due to the SP Cap. Please Support this Post by giving it a Plus 1.
Sees-Too-Much 11	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:18:00 - [18] - Quote I'm pretty sure you're taking a throwaway remark a little bit too literally. I've seen people on the forums talk about doing corp vs corp fights, they didn't mention a lack of SP rewards.
JoshuaEvil666 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 33	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:19:00 - [19] - Quote hopefully they will see this if they dont already and change it, its still not live so they can still change anything about core mechanics
Mikel Dracionas L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 14	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:26:00 - [20] - Quote I'll do it for bragging rights and money that's what being a Merc is all about

Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:29:00 - [21] - Quote Corps will still be a great place to find friends & squad up for pickup matches that help with skill & money. There will be NPC missions that you can use to acquire skill points -- I wouldn't be surprised if there were NPC missions that allowed, or required, an entire corp to work together. DOOOOOOoooooommmmmeeeeed....dooooooooooOOOOOMEEED....INEVITABLE....INEVITABLE.
KripnawtiQ Prime L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 206	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:35:00 - [22] - Quote With the OP on this, if its correct. The idea of matches with no SP reward would certainly take away much of the incentive to play. Skilling already takes awhile in many cases. I don't get to play as much as I would like and when I do its often only a few matches because I work 12+ hour shifts. The faction warfare feature is something we have all been waiting for. This could really impact the game.
sixteen64 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:50:00 - [23] - Quote With op also, lack of sp blows this game for me is getting more disappointing each day, which is pretty sad considering iv been eager for it since it was announced
drake sadani Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2012.10.03 04:53:00 - [24] - Quote DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM now to add something constructive so i do get a hammer to the face if there is no sp from that game i won't play those battles. unless there was something . anything to make it redeemable . maybe earn a skill book or a unique item. or maybe some kind of voucher for one free aur item . (nothing with blueprints though) ^ i just said all that so i could yell DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED without getting yelled at
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.10.03 05:39:00 - [25] - Quote Taking planets is one thing but if it's just for the sake of taking the planet, no-one is going to want to do it when they're losing dropsuits and gear. Isk reward is one thing but if they're not getting character progression (sp) then it's a single-edged sword. Even then, taking planets for faction warfare (which is all that will be available to us at first) isn't claiming it for -your- corporation. It's claiming it for the faction you've chosen to be with - and the reward is more than likely going to be in the form of isk and/or standings.
Talruum Tezztarozza Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 73	Posted - 2012.10.03 05:57:00 - [26] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Cognac wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Cognac wrote: 843 pano wrote: Is there a failsafe to stop parent corps from creating a scrimmage corp that can take up the contract against its parent corp so that the parent corp can boost off of the scrimmage corp game? I smell a ton of corp boosting coming... Corp battles don't award any SP So what's the point of us doing Faction Warfare? Money , honour , bragging rights. Look at this quote. My understanding is that CCP Cognac replied to 843 pano that there will be no sp reward for corp battle which is understandable. I don't think he also meant Faction warefare will yield no sp reward as well. Just a quoting error perhap ?
KripnawtiQ Prime L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 206	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:04:00 - [27] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Taking planets is one thing but if it's just for the sake of taking the planet, no-one is going to want to do it when they're losing dropsuits and gear. Isk reward is one thing but if they're not getting character progression (sp) then it's a single-edged sword. Even then, taking planets for faction warfare (which is all that will be available to us at first) isn't claiming it for -your- corporation. It's claiming it for the faction you've chosen to be with - and the reward is more than likely going to be in the form of isk and/or standings. Agreed. The character progression is one of the primary focal points for this game. There are plenty of other FPS titles out there. The depth of the skilling and customization system is what keeps players coming back. It needs to somehow be factored into every game mode.
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:07:00 - [28] - Quote Let me slide this past you..... You are in a corp battle against another corp. The other corp is made of your friends using trash characters standing in the same place waiting for your bullets. You get bajillions of SP. Game is broken. Corp battles do not and should not offer sp since you can potentially do something like this and i think CCP is smarter than you are giving them credit for. Corp battles might not be where the SP is at, but it sure as hell is going to be where the money is at...
Dusty Mokong ZionTCD Legacy Rising 61	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:19:00 - [29] - Quote What if CCP allows SP back into corp warfare but limits the number of battles a character can play per day or per week? Will that compromise be acceptable? This way corps would also be forced to spread the talent among squads and train up their other members so that they can accept more contracts.
Etero Narciss Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 112	Posted - 2012.10.03 06:22:00 - [30] - Quote So we can't earn active sp in corp wars. Annoying, but I can kinda understand the reasoning. What about passive sp? I doubt they're gonna freeze that whenever you enter a corp battle. If you still earn passive sp, then it's not as bad as it sounds.



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