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kellyn whiteheart
13
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Posted - 2012.09.19 20:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
EVE online is brutal and dust should be as well. so if something is happening that you dont like make sure its not working as intended first. because this game should not be a carebare shooter just saying.
thoughts? comments? disagree with me then say why |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 21:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
If they made Dust 514 like EVE in terms of inaccessibility and unforgiving gameplay, the handful of EVE players who own a PS3 and will play Dust would have a whole forum to themselves within which to gloat about how awesome it is that the game isn't "carebear", because for some reason that is a thing a game shouldn't be or whatever.
EVE's learning curve is a flaw. Making a product that is so complex, so quickly, and so unforgiving of mistakes should never be something a sensible designer aspires to. Unless you're making a game like I Wanna Be The Guy, that is.
So, yeah, the game should be accessible to new players, should accommodate mistakes and stuff, should have a good tutorial that explains how things works, and shouldn't have that "Here's a Rubik's cube, go **** yourself." attitude that EVE does. |
Dane Stark
Golgotha Group
178
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 22:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:If they made Dust 514 like EVE in terms of inaccessibility and unforgiving gameplay, the handful of EVE players who own a PS3 and will play Dust would have a whole forum to themselves within which to gloat about how awesome it is that the game isn't "carebear", because for some reason that is a thing a game shouldn't be or whatever.
EVE's learning curve is a flaw. Making a product that is so complex, so quickly, and so unforgiving of mistakes should never be something a sensible designer aspires to. Unless you're making a game like I Wanna Be The Guy, that is.
So, yeah, the game should be accessible to new players, should accommodate mistakes and stuff, should have a good tutorial that explains how things works, and shouldn't have that "Here's a Rubik's cube, go **** yourself." attitude that EVE does.
Its just a challenge that's better than the rest - why the hate on EvE? Clearly they have a long-term pay base of players that enjoy hard competition. Not sure why they would make Dust any different? It is for the rough and hardy that don't feel like playing all the other cookie-cutter FPS's out there. Why is this so hard to fathom? |
Foldenfly
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 22:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Eve is an awesome, complex game, but unfortunately I cannot justify a system that can keep up with the hardware requirements of the updates.
As for knowing what is broken in Dust and what is not, that is a much tougher obstacle for those of us that have just started the BETA. I have personally taken the approach of posting my thoughts and requests with the notion that I may be proven wrong and need to adjust my gameplay. I personally don't mind the complexity of the system, and hope the game can find a footing at the level it is attempting to achieve.
I come from a world of FPS and love the COD franchise (I know, how dare I?), and I'm aware that influences my impressions of this game. But I can honestly say there are things I like about those games that work, and things I am looking for this game to improve upon.
The only issue with Dust and the EVE universe is the fact it is an FPS at it's core. The foundation of the game needs to be a solid gunplay mechanic, and there have been numerous posts with excellent ideas on how to fix the issues. But what sold me on this game was the thought of a cross-platform fps having a greater effect that what my K/D was. I know everyone wants a more complex, cerebral game from Dust, and I agree. But we MUST remember that it cannot escape it's FPS intentions. What it can do is cater to battlefield strategy, intelligent and innovate problem solving (like repairing the MCC), and a lot of little easter eggs that will make it stand out and take FPS to a whole new level.
|
Raynor Ragna
266
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 22:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eves learning curve is probably the main reason why its still around and kicking hard nine years later. People play it for the learning curve.
After years of playing Eve, I still learn new things. If you get to know and do everything in dust if a few hours/days, it'll be dropped as soon as the next half decent game comes out.
Eve isn't for everyone, but its the only game around that tends to a certain group of people. |
Dane Stark
Golgotha Group
178
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 22:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Foldenfly wrote:Eve is an awesome, complex game, but unfortunately I cannot justify a system that can keep up with the hardware requirements of the updates.
As for knowing what is broken in Dust and what is not, that is a much tougher obstacle for those of us that have just started the BETA. I have personally taken the approach of posting my thoughts and requests with the notion that I may be proven wrong and need to adjust my gameplay. I personally don't mind the complexity of the system, and hope the game can find a footing at the level it is attempting to achieve.
I come from a world of FPS and love the COD franchise (I know, how dare I?), and I'm aware that influences my impressions of this game. But I can honestly say there are things I like about those games that work, and things I am looking for this game to improve upon.
The only issue with Dust and the EVE universe is the fact it is an FPS at it's core. The foundation of the game needs to be a solid gunplay mechanic, and there have been numerous posts with excellent ideas on how to fix the issues. But what sold me on this game was the thought of a cross-platform fps having a greater effect that what my K/D was. I know everyone wants a more complex, cerebral game from Dust, and I agree. But we MUST remember that it cannot escape it's FPS intentions. What it can do is cater to battlefield strategy, intelligent and innovate problem solving (like repairing the MCC), and a lot of little easter eggs that will make it stand out and take FPS to a whole new level.
No...It's all good...I LOVE World at War for what it is. I'm just looking for something different here. As are most. But please at least acknowledge that CoD along with most good gunplay FPS's out there are so far from real battlefield experiences that I hope Dust is actually going to breaking that notion. I don't want to play an FPS that is just run around and shoot 'em up. I want lines of defense. I want Teams taking objectives at a difficult cost. I want a frontline experience. So the only way that Dust is not 'up to par' IMO is that people still run around and shoot at whatever instead of calculating their actions. I hope it gets to be LESS of a stock FPS and more of a 'wait Johnny...don't put your head up or it's gonna get blown off.' Eh... |
Foldenfly
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 22:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dane Stark wrote:Foldenfly wrote:Eve is an awesome, complex game, but unfortunately I cannot justify a system that can keep up with the hardware requirements of the updates.
As for knowing what is broken in Dust and what is not, that is a much tougher obstacle for those of us that have just started the BETA. I have personally taken the approach of posting my thoughts and requests with the notion that I may be proven wrong and need to adjust my gameplay. I personally don't mind the complexity of the system, and hope the game can find a footing at the level it is attempting to achieve.
I come from a world of FPS and love the COD franchise (I know, how dare I?), and I'm aware that influences my impressions of this game. But I can honestly say there are things I like about those games that work, and things I am looking for this game to improve upon.
The only issue with Dust and the EVE universe is the fact it is an FPS at it's core. The foundation of the game needs to be a solid gunplay mechanic, and there have been numerous posts with excellent ideas on how to fix the issues. But what sold me on this game was the thought of a cross-platform fps having a greater effect that what my K/D was. I know everyone wants a more complex, cerebral game from Dust, and I agree. But we MUST remember that it cannot escape it's FPS intentions. What it can do is cater to battlefield strategy, intelligent and innovate problem solving (like repairing the MCC), and a lot of little easter eggs that will make it stand out and take FPS to a whole new level.
No...It's all good...I LOVE World at War for what it is. I'm just looking for something different here. As are most. But please at least acknowledge that CoD along with most good gunplay FPS's out there are so far from real battlefield experiences that I hope Dust is actually going to breaking that notion. I don't want to play an FPS that is just run around and shoot 'em up. I want lines of defense. I want Teams taking objectives at a difficult cost. I want a frontline experience. So the only way that Dust is not 'up to par' IMO is that people still run around and shoot at whatever instead of calculating their actions. I hope it gets to be LESS of a stock FPS and more of a 'wait Johnny...don't put your head up or it's gonna get blown off.' Eh...
Acknowledged and effing 'eh!
+3 from me for being everything I want. But there are gonna be times where it will devolve into a run-and-gun. They really gotta get the squad interaction up. |
Average Joe81
57
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 22:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
this is going to become a tank thread probobly
although in my opinion it doesn't seem brutal at all for AV because no one(exept snipers and vehicles) feel the need to target them even if they are fireing at a tank that will die unless the person kills them. also they like to hide deep withen enemy lines so no one can get to them |
Dane Stark
Golgotha Group
178
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 22:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Foldenfly wrote:Dane Stark wrote:Foldenfly wrote:Eve is an awesome, complex game, but unfortunately I cannot justify a system that can keep up with the hardware requirements of the updates.
As for knowing what is broken in Dust and what is not, that is a much tougher obstacle for those of us that have just started the BETA. I have personally taken the approach of posting my thoughts and requests with the notion that I may be proven wrong and need to adjust my gameplay. I personally don't mind the complexity of the system, and hope the game can find a footing at the level it is attempting to achieve.
I come from a world of FPS and love the COD franchise (I know, how dare I?), and I'm aware that influences my impressions of this game. But I can honestly say there are things I like about those games that work, and things I am looking for this game to improve upon.
The only issue with Dust and the EVE universe is the fact it is an FPS at it's core. The foundation of the game needs to be a solid gunplay mechanic, and there have been numerous posts with excellent ideas on how to fix the issues. But what sold me on this game was the thought of a cross-platform fps having a greater effect that what my K/D was. I know everyone wants a more complex, cerebral game from Dust, and I agree. But we MUST remember that it cannot escape it's FPS intentions. What it can do is cater to battlefield strategy, intelligent and innovate problem solving (like repairing the MCC), and a lot of little easter eggs that will make it stand out and take FPS to a whole new level.
No...It's all good...I LOVE World at War for what it is. I'm just looking for something different here. As are most. But please at least acknowledge that CoD along with most good gunplay FPS's out there are so far from real battlefield experiences that I hope Dust is actually going to breaking that notion. I don't want to play an FPS that is just run around and shoot 'em up. I want lines of defense. I want Teams taking objectives at a difficult cost. I want a frontline experience. So the only way that Dust is not 'up to par' IMO is that people still run around and shoot at whatever instead of calculating their actions. I hope it gets to be LESS of a stock FPS and more of a 'wait Johnny...don't put your head up or it's gonna get blown off.' Eh... Acknowledged and effing 'eh! +3 from me for being everything I want. But there are gonna be times where it will devolve into a run-and-gun. They really gotta get the squad interaction up.
I'll +1 that bro |
Disco Fernandez
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 22:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
yeah!!!! |
|
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 03:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Raynor Ragna wrote:Eves learning curve is probably the main reason why its still around and kicking hard nine years later. People play it for the learning curve.
After years of playing Eve, I still learn new things. If you get to know and do everything in dust if a few hours/days, it'll be dropped as soon as the next half decent game comes out.
Eve isn't for everyone, but its the only game around that tends to a certain group of people.
I don't think this is true in any real sense, that they play for the learning curve. I think they play because of the level of player control, the love of space ships and the setting, and the general "realism" of the game, amongst, admittedly, a lot of other potential reasons. I don't think anyone actually plays the game specifically because it's hard to learn. There are a lot of things in life that are hard to learn, and yet very few people tackle them for that reason alone.
Dane Stark wrote:Its just a challenge that's better than the rest - why the hate on EvE? Clearly they have a long-term pay base of players that enjoy hard competition. Not sure why they would make Dust any different? It is for the rough and hardy that don't feel like playing all the other cookie-cutter FPS's out there. Why is this so hard to fathom?
I'm not hating EVE, I'm saying that EVE's opaque complexity and brutal learning curve is not a good thing, and you can take CCP's word for it on that, as they're actively trying to improve it.
Hard competition was not the point. Making the game like a "cookie-cutter FPS" is not what I was suggesting. You can disagree with me without making stuff up, you know. What I'm saying is that if things are bothering people about the game, they have a legitimate gripe on that basis alone. Dismissing the complaints of people in some effort to kowtow to user-unfriendly game design, as if that's CCP's trademark, is silly. The game should be fun and accessible. If it isn't, people should talk about why they feel it isn't. Making threads like this is completely counter-productive. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1594
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 06:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:If they made Dust 514 like EVE in terms of inaccessibility and unforgiving gameplay, the handful of EVE players who own a PS3 and will play Dust would have a whole forum to themselves within which to gloat about how awesome it is that the game isn't "carebear", because for some reason that is a thing a game shouldn't be or whatever.
EVE's learning curve is a flaw. Making a product that is so complex, so quickly, and so unforgiving of mistakes should never be something a sensible designer aspires to. Unless you're making a game like I Wanna Be The Guy, that is.
So, yeah, the game should be accessible to new players, should accommodate mistakes and stuff, should have a good tutorial that explains how things works, and shouldn't have that "Here's a Rubik's cube, go **** yourself." attitude that EVE does.
The Rubik's cube bit is what drew me to Eve and I like to see that for DUST. |
Adramelech Re
11
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 12:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
That level of complexity is what convinced me to play EvE from 2005 to early 2012 (with a few breaks).
I want to see the same level of complexity in DUST. Don't want to fight? No worries, manufacture or trade to your heats content while chatting in local. Scam people in the DUST equiv of Jita local. Join a corporation and destroy it from the inside, etc etc.
That would make this game as epic in a ground based way as EvE is.
On the other hand if you want to just go out and mindlessly blast at anything moving (as the Beta tends to be at present), then do it!
Bring it! |
SYST3M 0V3RL0AD
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 13:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Yep, I've found this thread....
And now for a totally different perspective!!
There is a thread around here that tries to find the average age of Dust players. Last time i saw the thread the number was around 26+. Interesting, no?
The private channel I hang out in DUST has a requirement of 21+ (recently 18+ i believe) and a mic to get in. We've got everyone from age 18 to 60+. Both male and female. That channel alone is home to roughly 150 adult players. At peak server time there's at around 25+ people on every day. We're only just now beginning to ramp up invites.
Now, when did you all start playing video games? or FPS games? (both rhetorical, please don't answer and go off topic). You have to consider that there is an entire generation of gamers out there that have grown up. We've been mindlessly running and gunning for years and now we're all adults. Tens of thousands of us. We don't want another mindless run and gun FPS. We want a more intelligent, cerebral experience. We want to use not only our thumbs, but our brains, too. For some of use our brains are now more sharp than our reflexes. As gamers mature, our games must mature. I think it is absolutely brilliant of CCP to make Dust a complex game with a steep learning curve. As intelligent adults we want a challenge. Sure the young kids can jump in and shoot 'em up, but the rest of us can get deep in there and explore the complexity, solve problems and influence the meta game.
Additionally, to all those people that say CCP's downfall is the complexity and it will fail: Who pays for the Generation Y gamer's games? Mom and Dad. Well, now not only will little Johnny want that Aurum Dropsuit in the PS Store, but Generation X gamer Dad will want it too! Even Mom. And Dad will want one cooler than Johnny's, why? Because he's the Dad, of course! Gen X Dad will want to compete with his old college buddies. CCP has created a game that not only appeals to a broad demographic of FPS gamers, but they've also created a gold mine.
To sum up, Dust has the potential to be the modern FPS game made for the original gamers that appeals to the new gamers as well. I say bring on the complexity but don't forget to bring the fun. We're ready for it and it's about kitten time!
|
Raynor Ragna
266
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 14:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote: I don't think this is true in any real sense, that they play for the learning curve. I think they play because of the level of player control, the love of space ships and the setting, and the general "realism" of the game, amongst, admittedly, a lot of other potential reasons. I don't think anyone actually plays the game specifically because it's hard to learn. There are a lot of things in life that are hard to learn, and yet very few people tackle them for that reason alone.
Believe me. It's definitely a draw for a lot of people. I've been playing eve for around seven years now, I started a corporation and an alliance. I did a large portion of the recruiting and training of the people in the alliance. Most people were enthralled by all the stuff you had to learn and how deep you had to learn it. Conversations about mechanics for a particular part of the game could go on for hours. I've talked with people irl that have played it or did at a point and conversations lead twards the sheer depth of the game.
There are lots of reason to like Eve. The learning curve is just one of them. It is true that the learning curve keeps most people away from the game, but it's definately one of the reasons why Eve has been around for so long. |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
145
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:If they made Dust 514 like EVE in terms of inaccessibility and unforgiving gameplay, the handful of EVE players who own a PS3 and will play Dust would have a whole forum to themselves within which to gloat about how awesome it is that the game isn't "carebear", because for some reason that is a thing a game shouldn't be or whatever.
EVE's learning curve is a flaw. Making a product that is so complex, so quickly, and so unforgiving of mistakes should never be something a sensible designer aspires to. Unless you're making a game like I Wanna Be The Guy, that is.
So, yeah, the game should be accessible to new players, should accommodate mistakes and stuff, should have a good tutorial that explains how things works, and shouldn't have that "Here's a Rubik's cube, go **** yourself." attitude that EVE does.
This is so indicative of the American educational system and our propensity to to "dumb" things down so that everyone can access it. Listen, everyone can access it, just like the sciences, yet not everyone is going to be Einstein or Hawking, nor are they going to be the best DUSTER either. Not everyone can ride a bike, and sure as hell not everyone should be riding in the Tour de France.
What ever happened to a bit of natural selection and the occasional culling of the herd??
The thing is that it is ok not to be the best in this game from the get go.
And don't get me wrong or begin to troll with the fact of everything needs to be balanced and the learning curve in EVE is a flaw. Would you say the learning in life is a flaw, or just a REALITY?!?
It also plays to an old adage in the military, "the only dumb question is the one not asked!!!" Get my drift here?? We are in a community of people, everyone with their own experiences and contextualizations of those experiences. If some one has a question, ask it. Get over the feeling of embarrassment and get to the meat of the issue: I want to play this game well and DON'T want to get my arse handed to me ALL of the TIME. What can I do to avoid, or mitigate this????
Not that hard. Now if someone chooses to go it alone without asking questions, SOL!!! Your choice, not mine or anyone else's. The balancing in the weapons I can see, maybe in the equipment also (except for the reduction in suit HP, that was kind BS. What the hell do I want to pay 130000 ISK for just extra CPU and PG and not get a little bit more protection????
Same goes for the vehicles. You think in anyone of the last 10 countries that have been invaded by a major world power were crying "hey, this is unfair, would you balance the equipment so I don't get romp and stomped?" Well, they probably were, but then that comes down to the 7P's of life.
Prior Proper Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance.
Live it, Breath it, Love IT!!!!
|
Foldenfly
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
lol, Dust is in fact brutal. I got owned in 5 different games last night before I realized it was time to call it quits for the evening. That being said, there is a pattern starting to emerge in the game and on these forums. Find a role you like and dedicate yourself to it.
There are the frontliners who want in the fight (assault, heavies), the logis who support them, dropship operators who transport and provide cover fire from above, snipers who hunt for the shot from a hillside, and AVers who do a mix of everything. The key to this game is to find your niche and maximize it. Sure, down the line you can level up into more roles. But you have to be good at one thing before you can tackle another.
As for the the brutality, we all gotta die sometime. Just try to take someone with you when you go. |
H4rabec Weathers
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kazeno Rannaa wrote:Fivetimes Infinity wrote:If they made Dust 514 like EVE in terms of inaccessibility and unforgiving gameplay, the handful of EVE players who own a PS3 and will play Dust would have a whole forum to themselves within which to gloat about how awesome it is that the game isn't "carebear", because for some reason that is a thing a game shouldn't be or whatever.
EVE's learning curve is a flaw. Making a product that is so complex, so quickly, and so unforgiving of mistakes should never be something a sensible designer aspires to. Unless you're making a game like I Wanna Be The Guy, that is.
So, yeah, the game should be accessible to new players, should accommodate mistakes and stuff, should have a good tutorial that explains how things works, and shouldn't have that "Here's a Rubik's cube, go **** yourself." attitude that EVE does. This is so indicative of the American educational system and our propensity to to "dumb" things down so that everyone can access it. Listen, everyone can access it, just like the sciences, yet not everyone is going to be Einstein or Hawking, nor are they going to be the best DUSTER either. Not everyone can ride a bike, and sure as hell not everyone should be riding in the Tour de France. What ever happened to a bit of natural selection and the occasional culling of the herd?? The thing is that it is ok not to be the best in this game from the get go. And don't get me wrong or begin to troll with the fact of everything needs to be balanced and the learning curve in EVE is a flaw. Would you say the learning in life is a flaw, or just a REALITY?!? It also plays to an old adage in the military, "the only dumb question is the one not asked!!!" Get my drift here?? We are in a community of people, everyone with their own experiences and contextualizations of those experiences. If some one has a question, ask it. Get over the feeling of embarrassment and get to the meat of the issue: I want to play this game well and DON'T want to get my arse handed to me ALL of the TIME. What can I do to avoid, or mitigate this???? Not that hard. Now if someone chooses to go it alone without asking questions, SOL!!! Your choice, not mine or anyone else's. The balancing in the weapons I can see, maybe in the equipment also (except for the reduction in suit HP, that was kind BS. What the hell do I want to pay 130000 ISK for just extra CPU and PG and not get a little bit more protection???? Same goes for the vehicles. You think in anyone of the last 10 countries that have been invaded by a major world power were crying "hey, this is unfair, would you balance the equipment so I don't get romp and stomped?" Well, they probably were, but then that comes down to the 7P's of life. Prior Proper Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance. Live it, Breath it, Love IT!!!!
perfect planning and.................knew youd turn up at some point how are you shag. if they ever stick in a thundersword i'll bomb for you. |
Avenger 245
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
477
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
I don't mind complexity so long as its explained well |
Foldenfly
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Avenger 245 wrote:I don't mind complexity so long as its explained well
I think that's where we come in. One thing I noticed when I played EVE was the volume of player-written tutorials versus developer ones. When the kinks of this game are smoothed out, those of us who wish to do so will be the ones who guide future Dusters through the game. Guess we could call it Basic Training w/us as the Drill Sergeants. |
|
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kazeno Rannaa wrote:This is so indicative of the American educational system and our propensity to to "dumb" things down so that everyone can access it.
I'm not an American.
Quote:What ever happened to a bit of natural selection and the occasional culling of the herd??
It's a video game. This isn't a right of initiation that boys will be forced to endure in order to become men. It should be fun, it should be entertaining. You should like to play it, not hate playing it but love talking about how much of a badass you are for playing it even though lot's of stuff sucks and is broken and cheap but, hey, it's Dust! It's brutal! No. Just no. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation!
Complexity and depth are great. Obtuseness and opacity are not virtues, merely impediments.
I am hearing from two camps each with a a valid point that only seem to be incompatable.
To be truely great, DUST will need complexity. To be successfull DUST will need to be accessible.
There is a challenge in making a complex subjet accessible to beginers, but it is by no means impossible. DUST has starter fits and simple TDM matches that will make it accessible to anyone who has played any FPS before. Similarly many complex programs are written with a simplified beginner menu which hides complex and confusing features. Later when the user wants more control they graduate to the advanced menu options.
Well written manuals and tutorials will explain the core concepts and ease users into new features. DUST can do the same.
At present the confusing menu structure and lack of tutorials present DUST as obtouse, but that doesn't have to be true at launch.
We as players can assist by pointing out confusing menu systems and by writing our own tutorials.
I myself have written "Dropship Flight School" in an attempt to make flying more accessible, and based on feedback I believe it has succeeded. I have seen attempts at helping beginers with other aspects of the game.
I invite you to add to this body of knowledge. |
Foldenfly
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Skihids wrote:Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation! Complexity and depth are great. Obtuseness and opacity are not virtues, merely impediments. I am hearing from two camps each with a a valid point that only seem to be incompatable. To be truely great, DUST will need complexity. To be successfull DUST will need to be accessible. There is a challenge in making a complex subjet accessible to beginers, but it is by no means impossible. DUST has starter fits and simple TDM matches that will make it accessible to anyone who has played any FPS before. Similarly many complex programs are written with a simplified beginner menu which hides complex and confusing features. Later when the user wants more control they graduate to the advanced menu options. Well written manuals and tutorials will explain the core concepts and ease users into new features. DUST can do the same. At present the confusing menu structure and lack of tutorials present DUST as obtouse, but that doesn't have to be true at launch. We as players can assist by pointing out confusing menu systems and by writing our own tutorials. I myself have written "Dropship Flight School" in an attempt to make flying more accessible, and based on feedback I believe it has succeeded. I have seen attempts at helping beginers with other aspects of the game. I invite you to add to this body of knowledge.
Well said. I know a lot of complaints stem from being dropped into matches w/players that have skilled up, and make cannon fodder out of the new players. At present, there is no way around this since we are running on a single server for BETA. When the game goes live, the basic games like TDM can easily be tweaked to drop a noob into a match with other players from a similar skill level.
Corp battles for sovereignty are a different matter. I personally think those should be open to everyone, with the caveat that if you are a noob you join at your own risk. And when you do, prepare to be owned by the guy w/18mil SP and a Duvolle.
EDIT: Bottom line is the Squad features need work and the "complex" games need to cater to squad play. AMBUSH is not one of those, but SKIRMISH is. It will be interesting to see what additional modes are presented to fuel the "complex" game aspect.
We all know the basic FPS game options out there, since most of us have played COD, BF3, and the like. What I would like to see is a "hostage" rescue spec op, drop-ship capture (Tech 3 drop ships for EVE players), or tech contract captures in general where an EVE player/corp wants a particular tech held by another player/corp.
Even Black-op modes that are limited to a certain amount of players for each side (4/5 man teams). EVE corp plans assault and hires mercs. When assault is about to start, the game generates a "fast contract" on behalf of the defenders where players can join from their game menu. Could you imagine the Dusters getting the tech off the planet and handing off to an EVE player. The battle could then move to EVE as the player tries to make a run w/the tech, only to encounter another EVE player from the opposing corp and a space battle ensues. THAT's why I'm here.
Basically, games that cater to the notions Dane put forth in his above post. Again, not to draw flamers, but MW3's spec ops mode would be an interesting jumping off point.
I can run-and-gun any day on COD. What I wanna do here is go to war.... |
Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation
172
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 19:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
Personally I believe that it'll work out when more servers and corporations and what not are released. They will make it so one side is more casual and the other side is hardcore.
1. I heard that they'll separate players in the NPC corp battles to fit their rankings. 2. Casual players will still be able to gain SP through the passive SP gaining thing so even though we have it now, it will help them in the future. 3. Different types of weapons, equips, and dropsuits in the future will give more variety to the casual player so that it simply won't be rock vs paper vs scissors in some matches. 4. When corporations roll along, the hardcore players will want to dominate EVE space. That means they'll be playing more Corp Battles than Insta-Battles and NPC battles where casuals are. 5. When the Corporations and EVE connect and the corp battles and wars start getting intense, players will obviously not risk losing their dropsuits and vehicles and other gadgets in insta-battles and NPC battles where the amount you gain is not enough to replenish your loses. They would want to play with their militia and basic equipment in insta-battles if they don't want to face loses at the hands of random casual players. |
SYST3M 0V3RL0AD
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 22:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Also keep in mind folks, there is a tutorial function in the game, it just isn't implemented yet. CCP has in fact stated tutorials are on the way in the next build. Of course those tutorials will be basic information, most likely, so player made guides will be necessary to really get in deep. Still, it takes a certain type of person to actually read the tutorials and guides, understand them, and implement what they've learned. There's an entire generation of players that won't bother. At that point, the complexity isn't at fault but the actual player is. The game shouldn't be dumbed down to cater to the lazy. The casual player can still play, just not as well as others that take the time to learn. So be it. I love easy targets. |
Hobos-N-Guns
Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 01:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Raynor Ragna wrote:Fivetimes Infinity wrote: I don't think this is true in any real sense, that they play for the learning curve. I think they play because of the level of player control, the love of space ships and the setting, and the general "realism" of the game, amongst, admittedly, a lot of other potential reasons. I don't think anyone actually plays the game specifically because it's hard to learn. There are a lot of things in life that are hard to learn, and yet very few people tackle them for that reason alone.
Believe me. It's definitely a draw for a lot of people. I've been playing eve for around seven years now, I started a corporation and an alliance. I did a large portion of the recruiting and training of the people in the alliance. Most people were enthralled by all the stuff you had to learn and how deep you had to learn it. Conversations about mechanics for a particular part of the game could go on for hours. I've talked with people irl that have played it or did at a point and conversations lead twards the sheer depth of the game. There are lots of reason to like Eve. The learning curve is just one of them. It is true that the learning curve keeps most people away from the game, but it's definately one of the reasons why Eve has been around for so long.
+1
What drew me to eve in 2004 was the technical aspect of the game and the fact you had to put the real time into the game so you can train specific skills to customize your character. Some skills take 45 days, others more but its worth the time to achieve the goal.
I've also been playing solid for 7 yrs and on and off for 2 yrs. RL can be a real drag |
Hobos-N-Guns
Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 01:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Raynor Ragna wrote:Eves learning curve is probably the main reason why its still around and kicking hard nine years later. People play it for the learning curve.
After years of playing Eve, I still learn new things. If you get to know and do everything in dust if a few hours/days, it'll be dropped as soon as the next half decent game comes out.
Eve isn't for everyone, but its the only game around that tends to a certain group of people.
+1 |
SILENTSAM 69
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
421
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 01:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
The problem is the stereo type that all console players are stupid. The problem is not that the gamers are stupid, it is that they have only been given stupid games.
Many would love it, and many would want it. Many wouldnt, but screw them!
The cry babies are loud though so the game will be simplified in some ways. This is CCP though so the game will have some real depth.
Do not forget that it will have time to develop and will get better after release. |
GarryKE
Omnispace Trading Company
60
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 02:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
What I've come to conclude so far is that CCP are concreting a new standard (think: Microsoft will look back and say "damn, should've let them do it. Look how successful it is. I know. Let's make our own! - then the followers will come). For this reason we should all expect other franchises to come up with something that's more or less the same. When players are given the accessibility and everything gets dumbed down at the start what we get then is CoD/BF3 fanboys (who don't like a challenge, not speaking about ones that do) will move over to games of a more elitist approach (very much the case for Eve and possibly Dust).
You know what'll happen then? An evolved way of care-bearing people through the game until they get their first chance to post a self-gratifying look at my ego thread; a steady and endless stream of people who come with the "ok, I suck, so what am I doing wrong?" posts. Once they reached the stage of being good enough to figure stuff out for themselves the onslaught of battlefield king wannabes will come along challenging everybody and anybody to beat them to win some prize or something incredibly stupid and childish so they get their chance to gloat and act like an ordinary egotistical teenager with social problems. If this does happen what has CCP created? A futuristic COD.
I agree with the poster. Make the game brutal like EVE. The dumb teenagers wanting fame can go spread their ego-wings on Activision's next epic, over-rated FPS leaving the adults who actually know how to add, subtract and multiply and like the mind-challenging system that this game will provide to be the ones that play this game. The game will definitely be unique with the depth. |
Foldenfly
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 16:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
This is a bit off topic, but when are they gonna release EVE on PS3 (nerd fantasizing)? Sign me up on day one, please! |
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