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Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
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Posted - 2012.09.15 21:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Since heavies suck against missile turrets or railguns unless they have the high ground here is a possible solution other than buffing swarms to a ridiculous damage output
This idea is inspired by the immortals in starcraft 2. An immortal has normal shielding in most situations but when they get hit with something that has a high enough damage output (like a tank) it instantly builds large amounts of resistance against the damage taken. Adding this effect in a module to effect shields or armor would be a good way for a heavy to compensate for low maneuverability when taking on a tank or when hit with an RE. It also keeps infantry battles with heavies the same so there will be no unfair advantage in infantry battles.
Also may promote more use in blasters for anti infantry since missiles wont be as effective against this module but blasters should be able to take it out with the same ease as before.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned or exists in EVE (discuss) |
Daedra Lord9
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
136
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Posted - 2012.09.15 21:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
I, as a heavy, wouldn't be opposed to it. |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
328
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Posted - 2012.09.16 00:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
I like the idea as a possible element in game balancing.
I'm not sure if it will survive the eve nerds.
Seems slightly like a hack in the sense that it kind of setting special case rules for the resistances on this module.
Definitely a good post though, liking. |
Pezley McDoff
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
14
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Posted - 2012.09.16 01:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
i enjoy this idea greatly |
Celestial3
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2012.09.16 01:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
In what way is combat even between the classes? I do like your idea though. +1 |
ReGnUm ReSuRgAM DEI
33
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sleepy Zan wrote:Since heavies suck against missile turrets or railguns unless they have the high ground here is a possible solution other than buffing swarms to a ridiculous damage output
This idea is inspired by the immortals in starcraft 2. An immortal has normal shielding in most situations but when they get hit with something that has a high enough shield output (like a siege tank) it instantly builds large amounts of resistance against the damage taken. Adding this effect to shields or armor would be a good way for a heavy to compensate for low maneuverability when taking on a tank or when hit with an RE. It also keeps infantry battles with heavies the same so there will be no unfair advantage in infantry battles.
Also may promote more use in blasters for anti infantry since missiles wont be as effective against this module but blasters should be able to take it out with the same ease as before.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned or exists in EVE (discuss)
wanna group up ? |
Needless Sacermendor
98
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't understand the concept ... you want the heavy as an armor tanked class to take less damage from anything that has a higher armor value than itself !? How will this help against a shield tanked HAV ? and if you shield tank your heavy, you want it to take less damage from a shield tanked HAV ... same goes for the Surya !
Also the Swarm is not a heavy weapon, it's a light weapon so I don't understand the relation between that and your suggestion ... the forge gun maybe I could be close to empathising but probably not as this goes against everything CCP is trying to achieve.
And how would any of this make a difference between missiles and blasters on a HAV ? Surely it wouldn't matter what kind of turrets are fitted ... so long as the tank was the same as the heavies he would receive less damage.
It's not the fans that demand everything to fit in with Eve lore, it's CCP that have a whole universe of ways and mechanics and science that they want to maintain as much as possible and tweak as little as possible to get DUST to release. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
I would just like to say I like this idea, but make is a module. Furthermore, instead of a flat resistance buff, why not make it inverse to their current speed? That way heavies can hold ground but don't overshadow the assaults for taking it. |
crazy space
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
879
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
good idea. would make having gunner that much more important. Plus missiles would no longer one shot shield tanks, but be better verus armor tanks. This would give the tech 2 heavy an awesome role.
I would say apply it to all shields on dropsuits though. |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
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Posted - 2012.09.16 05:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Let me explain I apologize for not being clear enough
Needless Sacermendor wrote:I don't understand the concept ... you want the heavy as an armor tanked class to take less damage from anything that has a higher armor value than itself !? How will this help against a shield tanked HAV ? and if you shield tank your heavy, you want it to take less damage from a shield tanked HAV ... same goes for the Surya !
It is intended to be a module (probably low slot to boost shielding [not armor]) for heavies to have instant damage resistance at the moment a projectile hits them with enough damage to it. It is meant to allow heavies not to get one shoted by railguns or missile launchers and to have a bit more of a fitting chance. I was thinking that the line can be drawn at anything doing 350 damage or more would trigger the hardeners. Also the resistance level ranging from 50% standard - 80% prototype.This may seem like alot of resistance but considering the amount a type 2 heavy has in comparison to a railgun I think it is actually pretty reasonable.
sorry fixed error shield output now says damage output |
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Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
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Posted - 2012.09.16 05:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:Also the Swarm is not a heavy weapon, it's a light weapon so I don't understand the relation between that and your suggestion ... the forge gun maybe I could be close to empathising but probably not as this goes against everything CCP is trying to achieve.
I'm saying to nerf swarms and rebuff tanks a little and use this to help balance it out. Yes I would imagine a heavy in this fit to carry a forge gun. The heavy still won't be nearly impossible for the tank to kill with railgun or missile launcher splash but this way will give a heavy a little more tanking to do one of the jobs it was originally intended for, which is taking on tanks. The heavy of course still has to play smart and can't take on a tank like this out in the open and once you have these heavies with this module learning the proper technique to deal with tanks then the tank will need more infantry support to be able to take out the heavy like wise for the heavy, which is what CCP is trying to achieve (more infantry support needed for tanks).
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Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
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Posted - 2012.09.16 05:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:And how would any of this make a difference between missiles and blasters on a HAV ? Surely it wouldn't matter what kind of turrets are fitted ... so long as the tank was the same as the heavies he would receive less damage.
It is based on the amount of damage a heavy takes with one shot, sure missile splash would probably avoid the resistance but ,I would think, that blasters would be a far more effective counter. |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 05:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:It's not the fans that demand everything to fit in with Eve lore, it's CCP that have a whole universe of ways and mechanics and science that they want to maintain as much as possible and tweak as little as possible to get DUST to release.
I was talking about a module like this that exists in game in EVE and whether or not it was already planned for Dust.
again sorry for not being more clear I hope this helps |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 05:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
ReGnUm ReSuRgAM DEI wrote:wanna group up ?
sure check in channel "LFSquad" for me
Noc Tempre wrote:I would just like to say I like this idea, but make is a module. Furthermore, instead of a flat resistance buff, why not make it inverse to their current speed? That way heavies can hold ground but don't overshadow the assaults for taking it. It was meant to be a module, low slot now that I think about it. Not sure if it should be only lomited to heavies or not tho. Also not sure if it should allow stacking either. |
I-SHAYZ-I
24
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Posted - 2012.09.16 09:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Just wait until they implement deployable shields.
This would be exactly what you want, something to keep you defended from heavy weaponry, but still allows for an assault class to run up and turn you into swiss cheese.
Anyone else agree? |
Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
65
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Posted - 2012.09.16 10:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
TL;DR Tanks terrorize turrets your just shooting newbies who don't know how to play. |
Needless Sacermendor
98
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Posted - 2012.09.16 11:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thanks for taking the time to address each of my points ... I understand a lot better what you're trying to achieve now.
Before my opinion I'm not sure what module in Eve you're talking about ... we have regular damage resists but I'm not aware of anything that only applies resists when damage above a threshold is received ... any clarification on which module you mean.
My Opinion : As a dedicated Assault Swarm user, even in cqc battles as my SMG skills are better than my AR, I'm not a big fan of dropping Swarm damage, though I do think they shouldn't be so readily available. Even now since the hotfix I can hit a Sagaris with proto swarm and double damage mods and it barely scratches the paint. I've invested a lot of sp to make a workable AV fit that can survive against infantry and deal heafty damage to vehicles, I don't believe I should be able to solo kill a good advanced HAV with a single prototype AV weapon but I should be able to get it on the move which I generally can.
(Edited : When I say swarms shouldn't be readily available, I mean no militia Swarms ... there's no militia forge so why have other militia AV weapons, AV is a specialist role.)
I do agree the heavy class needs some work but I'm not sure this is the right way to go about it ... my reason being ... I can solo most heavies no matter what weapon they are carrying simply by staffing through his tracers of the HMG or the same tactic to avoid his audible forge charge just as it's about to discharge. I have however met one good heavy user by the name of Khemlar Maktar who can destroy me every time usually before I've even switched to SMG and fired a shot or turned to face him. I put this down to a most not 100% specialising into the heavy class and as such they shouldn't be good at it, a heavy user shouldn't have assault rifle skills or swarm launchers, these are both light weapons, not heavy and should be trained after his heavy weapons.
I think heavies should just get their e train hit points back that they used to have if you want them to have a bit more survivability but also the damage resist modules available to vehicles could be made available to dropsuits but as I've said ... these are across the board resists, they have no concept of the level of damage received. |
Needless Sacermendor
98
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Posted - 2012.09.16 11:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
As an alternative idea ... perhaps heavies need more varieties of weapons, just having the HMG and forge seems to make them unpopular especially with their limited movement and currently not great hp.
Maybe they need some form of heavy mortar cannon version of the mass driver with a balanced ability, less effective than a forge on vehicles but slightly better than the HMG against infantry due to some splash damage, though this would obviously need careful balancing. |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 13:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:Thanks for taking the time to address each of my points ... I understand a lot better what you're trying to achieve now.
Before my opinion I'm not sure what module in Eve you're talking about ... we have regular damage resists but I'm not aware of anything that only applies resists when damage above a threshold is received ... any clarification on which module you mean.
My Opinion : As a dedicated Assault Swarm user, even in cqc battles as my SMG skills are better than my AR, I'm not a big fan of dropping Swarm damage, though I do think they shouldn't be so readily available. Even now since the hotfix I can hit a Sagaris with proto swarm and double damage mods and it barely scratches the paint. I've invested a lot of sp to make a workable AV fit that can survive against infantry and deal heafty damage to vehicles, I don't believe I should be able to solo kill a good advanced HAV with a single prototype AV weapon but I should be able to get it on the move which I generally can.
(Edited : When I say swarms shouldn't be readily available, I mean no militia Swarms ... there's no militia forge so why have other militia AV weapons, AV is a specialist role.)
I do agree the heavy class needs some work but I'm not sure this is the right way to go about it ... my reason being ... I can solo most heavies no matter what weapon they are carrying simply by staffing through his tracers of the HMG or the same tactic to avoid his audible forge charge just as it's about to discharge. I have however met one good heavy user by the name of Khemlar Maktar who can destroy me every time usually before I've even switched to SMG and fired a shot or turned to face him. I put this down to a most not 100% specialising into the heavy class and as such they shouldn't be good at it, a heavy user shouldn't have assault rifle skills or swarm launchers, these are both light weapons, not heavy and should be trained after his heavy weapons.
I think heavies should just get their e train hit points back that they used to have if you want them to have a bit more survivability but also the damage resist modules available to vehicles could be made available to dropsuits but as I've said ... these are across the board resists, they have no concept of the level of damage received.
No problem in addressing your questions man, it was only an idea I had to possibly aid in the tank vs infantry balancing and I just wanted to see what the community thought of it or if it would inspire any new ideas. Even before the tank nerf there were a small group of heavies who had their **** together and could lay waste to tanks. I just wanted to promote the use of heavy forge gun to destroy tanks rather than swarms which should only do damage and shouldn't be able to be used to solo a tank, in my opinion. |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
328
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 16:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
I saw two ideas I liked as well -
A deployable shield
and (even better)
an AV mass driver. The mass driver would be able to lob shells over obstacles that the tanks would be unable to return direct fire through. Make for some good fights. |
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sys Ghost
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
23
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Posted - 2012.09.16 16:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Telcontar Dunedain wrote:I say two ideas I liked as well -
A deployable shield
and (even better)
an AV mass driver. The mass driver would be able to lob shells over obstacles that the tanks would be unable to return direct fire through. Make for some good fights.
True artillery on a LAV is a REALLY nice idea. I LOVE IT!!! the LAV alone is kind of **** except for speedy initial point capture early game, but if it had the capability of fitting a powerful (but difficult to aim/use) artillery weapon, it could become a very valuable asset in the right kind of map. It could be used for things like hiding over a ridge, and bombarding a capture point so that it can't be taken while a couple of escorts guard the ridge itself to make sure no one comes over it to attack the LAV. |
Daedra Lord9
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 16:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
sys Ghost wrote:Telcontar Dunedain wrote:I say two ideas I liked as well -
A deployable shield
and (even better)
an AV mass driver. The mass driver would be able to lob shells over obstacles that the tanks would be unable to return direct fire through. Make for some good fights. True artillery on a LAV is a REALLY nice idea. I LOVE IT!!! the LAV alone is kind of **** except for speedy initial point capture early game, but if it had the capability of fitting a powerful (but difficult to aim/use) artillery weapon, it could become a very valuable asset in the right kind of map. It could be used for things like hiding over a ridge, and bombarding a capture point so that it can't be taken while a couple of escorts guard the ridge itself to make sure no one comes over it to attack the LAV.
Vehicles will have artillery guns soon, and I assume that means both light and heavy. So you should get your wish either next build or on release. |
Skytt Syysch
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
235
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 17:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sleepy Zan wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:I would just like to say I like this idea, but make is a module. Furthermore, instead of a flat resistance buff, why not make it inverse to their current speed? That way heavies can hold ground but don't overshadow the assaults for taking it. It was meant to be a module, low slot now that I think about it. Not sure if it should be only lomited to heavies or not tho. Also not sure if it should allow stacking either.
I like the idea of it being a module, and I also like the idea that anyone can fit it, with the bigger suits getting a better bonus from it. It should definitely be limited to one per suit, though, if it's getting 50-80% resist (imagine a logi stacking 4, even if they get a smaller effect).
What I don't like is the damage threshold being the only trigger, because it would then apply to grenades and sniper headshots and other non-vehicle related things if this is supposed to only be to boost survivability as an AV role. |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 18:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Skytt Syysch wrote:Sleepy Zan wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:I would just like to say I like this idea, but make is a module. Furthermore, instead of a flat resistance buff, why not make it inverse to their current speed? That way heavies can hold ground but don't overshadow the assaults for taking it. It was meant to be a module, low slot now that I think about it. Not sure if it should be only lomited to heavies or not tho. Also not sure if it should allow stacking either. I like the idea of it being a module, and I also like the idea that anyone can fit it, with the bigger suits getting a better bonus from it. It should definitely be limited to one per suit, though, if it's getting 50-80% resist (imagine a logi stacking 4, even if they get a smaller effect). What I don't like is the damage threshold being the only trigger, because it would then apply to grenades and sniper headshots and other non-vehicle related things if this is supposed to only be to boost survivability as an AV role.
That's why I was trying to decide if it should be exclusive to the heavy class or not, maybe the heavy suits can get 50% to 80% with the bonus while all other suits get something like 25% to 50% (random number off the top of my head, I'll have to look into it more to get what I actually think it should be). Heavies have have no defense against REs and well timed grenades this is to give them a better chance with those as well. As far as stacking goes I was unsure about that as well, I don't want to make them absolutely impossible to kill with explosives, but if you stack 4 on a logi good luck in a standard fire fight. I believe that everything should be able to have a counter if you are willing to sacrifice something else, if you don't want to be popped with a head shot from a sniper sacrifice a low slot that could be fitted with something else that would help you in a different situation. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 14:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sleepy Zan wrote:Since heavies suck against missile turrets or railguns unless they have the high ground here is a possible solution other than buffing swarms to a ridiculous damage output
This idea is inspired by the immortals in starcraft 2. An immortal has normal shielding in most situations but when they get hit with something that has a high enough damage output (like a siege tank) it instantly builds large amounts of resistance against the damage taken. Adding this effect in a module to effect shields or armor would be a good way for a heavy to compensate for low maneuverability when taking on a tank or when hit with an RE. It also keeps infantry battles with heavies the same so there will be no unfair advantage in infantry battles.
Also may promote more use in blasters for anti infantry since missiles wont be as effective against this module but blasters should be able to take it out with the same ease as before.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned or exists in EVE (discuss)
Uh, i crush turrets installations with my heavy FG every map. Wich is why i always root for a massive boost to those turrets HP. Hello, those MASSIVE canon can't stand more shots than a CRU ? |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2047
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 15:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Sleepy Zan wrote:Since heavies suck against missile turrets or railguns unless they have the high ground here is a possible solution other than buffing swarms to a ridiculous damage output
This idea is inspired by the immortals in starcraft 2. An immortal has normal shielding in most situations but when they get hit with something that has a high enough damage output (like a siege tank) it instantly builds large amounts of resistance against the damage taken. Adding this effect in a module to effect shields or armor would be a good way for a heavy to compensate for low maneuverability when taking on a tank or when hit with an RE. It also keeps infantry battles with heavies the same so there will be no unfair advantage in infantry battles.
Also may promote more use in blasters for anti infantry since missiles wont be as effective against this module but blasters should be able to take it out with the same ease as before.
Not sure if this has already been mentioned or exists in EVE (discuss) Uh, i crush turrets installations with my heavy FG every map. Wich is why i always root for a massive boost to those turrets HP. Hello, those MASSIVE canon can't stand more shots than a CRU ?
I believe those are the militia installations they will be stronger once they are available on the market. |
HowDidThatTaste
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
2242
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 04:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maybe if enough of these posts are read by the developers they will want to do something to help the heavy in the AV role. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2012.11.02 07:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
There is no EvE equivalent. New modules are added to eve though, and this seems like something that could be explained easily enough and be good in game.
My thoughts on features 1)Limit to one per suit. 2)have stacking penalty not apply, in event we ever get infantry hardeners 3)Make it limit speed heavy's while active instead of making it heavy exclusive, so no penalty for heavy but nerfs anybody else that trys to use it. 4)Make it an active module like shield hardener, 30 seconds with 5 sec cool down, or give it an ammo supply of so many seconds active(this could be explained as Strontium Clathrates like POS invulnerable mode). 5) instead of a on/off activation, it could be a curve from 25% reduction at 100hp to 80% at 300hp damage.
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Ty 'SweetCheeks' Borg
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
192
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Posted - 2012.11.02 10:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
I admire the fact your trying to help the AV vs vehicles issue, but do you honestly think that forge's are useless and the heavies need a buff?.
Currently everyone has a forge gun, it's the only effective AV out there since swarms are broken. With this buff heavies with no brains will be able to run rampant against all vehicles with only infantry to stop them.
Any smart heavy AV user out there will be using cover and they don't get one shot, not by large missiles anyway unless they're dumb. Saying this will help them against railguns, well, the only sure fire way to get a heavy in cover is snipe them with a rail and currently the railgun is crap and broken due to whines last build. Your better off having some guy sit on your tank with a forge, it's ridiculous how the forge is better than the railgun in everyway.
The problem is with the small missile turrets and them being placed on dropships and the fact that swarms are useless against this. As I keep saying, the entire balance of AV, vehicles and turrets is totally way off.
All this suggestion does is make heavies nigh on un-killable against tanks. I think this idea needs some work before it's not OP tbh. Kudos for trying though Sleepy. |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
886
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 13:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
I agree with whoever said it....heavies can be more effective with the use of a forge gun. Giving them a buff is just going to have a side effect that will make it impossible for other suits to defend themselves against heavies. If that's the case, they will have to buff Assault, scout, and logi suits just as much.
I don't get how heavies can complain about the fact that they can't maneuver enough against DS and tanks....you're in a kitten heavy suit!!! What do you expect? That's the price you pay for wanting to clear out an objective of assault guys at an objective and only being reduced to half armor.
CCP...leave the heavies as they are. Or, you'd have to give every other suit the exact same buff to be fair. Which wouldn't make sense....it'll be easier to just nerf the tanks. |
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