DUST Search - Why Tanks Are Over-Powered (now with the numbers!)

Tyas Borg wrote:

So your complaining that two guys can't take out a 3 man tank which probably costs more than their fits combined and multiplied by at least 3.....

People seem obsessed with this idea that 1-2 guys should insta pop a tank. You even say yourself that 2 forge gunners would make a tank run. I'd go as far to say that one can.

The point here is that the tank HAS to move and your denying it whatever it was doing. The fact it's not dead isn't the issue, the AV has done it's job and the tank is gone. Besides the fact that if the tank didn't run, then it'd be dead so AV is fine?, no?.

I've not used the Forge gun this build, but I'm on the receiving end of it a lot and to me it does it's job. If I hear the thing fire up I run, if I don't I'm as good as dead and if not I have to retreat out of the fight to recover.

I have however used the swarm launcher and anybody saying tanks are OP HASN'T specced into swarms. I can kill Marauders and make them run like girls on my own with lvl 2 Swarms... Yeah AV is really broken...not. How about people actually spec into countering it?.

I've seen organised groups of 4 devastate a tank, just because they can't be solo'd doesn't mean they're OP.

Personally the only true counter to a tank should be a tank or some kind of artillery/tank killer vehicle.

I will admit that there's an issue with how many tanks we see in a single match however, but this could all be eliminated through the use of War Points cost to deploy or just limiting the amount of tanks.

Can we make it so that 2 frigates can pop a titan in EvE CCP?, this is obviously what the Dust player base wants as far as vehicles go.

Simply buffing AV is not the answer. There's tonnes of systems that could be deployed to balance them, simply crying nerf or buff is total crap imo.

For example how about making vehicle weapons do 75% AV damage and 25% AI damage?, in fact no lets go with crying over numbers and shout buff AV waaahhhhh!!111!

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.11 09:39:00 - [1] - Quote EDITORIAL NOTE: My math was wrong and I have changed the post accordingly - please see bottom of post for further information. This build the AV/Tank balance is just ridiculous. Here's why. Here's the stacking penalties on using more than one Shield Resistance on an HAV. -25% 1 Shield Resist -46.75% 2 Shield Resists -61% 3 Shield Resists -68% 4 Shield Resists -82% 4 Shield Resists + Damage Control Now, for the sake of argument, we're going to assume that a Sagaris with two resistances, a shield extender, a damage control, and a booster. 6000 (approximately) HP with 60.75% resistance. Now we'll pit it against an Officer Forge Gun, which does 1080 damage - base - and with Weaponry 5 and Proficiency 3 would be an 24% increase to a grand total of 1340. Now, we're going to take the resistances and apply it to our forge gun, which now makes it at 536. 6,000 divided by 536 = 11.19, approximately. This is about two magazines from your Officer Forge Gun. This means that with two (officer) forge gunners firing at the same Tank, taking into account charge up times, it would take 10 Seconds for both gunners to exhaust their magazines and theoretically deplete the tank's shields. Round about's 20, for one gunner. In this time frame the tank has already disengaged the battle and has retreated to an area that it can use it's booster - all the while using a large array of weaponry to fire back at it's opponents. Whatever happened in this build screwed over any balance there ever was between vehicles and Anti-Vehicle builds. To counter the argument that Movement Nullifiers will "fix everything", you're very wrong. Movement Nullifiers will help but they won't solve the issue at hand - as this math is directed for -ONE TANK- and I have seen as many as five in a single match. I'm curious as to what CCP was even thinking when they came out with the AV "hotfix" in the first place, to be honest. Reducing the speed on the tanks isn't the problem - it's their absolutely ridiculous invulnerability to conventional methods. EDITORIAL NOTE: I know that the Officer Forge Gun has 6 rounds in the mag - but a Proto Forge Gun does about the same damage so it's a moot point. FURTHER EDITORIAL NOTE: I realized that 804 was the 60% of the damage from the forge gun - that number was what was being removed from the equation, and replaced it with the 40% left over -after- the resistances were taken into account.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.11 09:45:00 - [2] - Quote Lol you just wait dude all the tank srubs are gona hate this Also Why pick such an awful fit as an example? Well even this bad fit shows its overpowered so lolz. Also you might wana factor in shield regen because that adds up more than you might think. Anyway thanks for takign the time to put this together and congrats on not making any tank friends today lolz Edit: lol didnt even see you were using an officer forge gun lol nice.
Shadows Maker Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 129	Posted - 2012.09.11 09:53:00 - [3] - Quote in b4 tank fanboys flame 1+ for the explanation maybe this time they will admit tanks are OP
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.11 09:56:00 - [4] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Lol you just wait dude all the tank srubs are gona hate this Also Why pick such an awful fit as an example? Well even this bad fit shows its overpowered so lolz. Also you might wana factor in shield regen because that adds up more than you might think. Anyway thanks for takign the time to put this together and congrats on not making any tank friends today lolz Edit: lol didnt even see you were using an officer forge gun lol nice. I used a Surya in the last build - don't know jack of **** about tanks. Either way, I know some idiot is going to say "Prototype Breach Forge Gun" but every Forge Gunner user knows that's a got damn death sentence what with not being able to move.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.11 09:57:00 - [5] - Quote Shadows Maker wrote: in b4 tank fanboys flame 1+ for the explanation maybe this time they will admit tanks are OP As I said in Previous post, I used a Surya with a Railgun last build and I learned very quickly to aim for the Bolas instead of the tank - as I say to the guys in TCD (my corp), "The best way to treat a sunburn is to not get one in the first place".
TiMeSpLiT--TeR Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 326	Posted - 2012.09.11 09:57:00 - [6] - Quote That's why they're going to buff AV and Forgeguns on the next build. I believe 25% more.
The Last Shepherd Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2012.09.11 09:59:00 - [7] - Quote we need mines or some sort of trap for tanks where you can set up and hide, going toe to toe is insane
TiMeSpLiT--TeR Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 326	Posted - 2012.09.11 10:00:00 - [8] - Quote I use Proto breach forgegun, but I do it behind the tank so it won't see me. I agree on the OP, because there was a particular tank that I have trouble beating, and that's Sagaris. A well fitted tank is hard to take down unless there's more of me.
TiMeSpLiT--TeR Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 326	Posted - 2012.09.11 10:03:00 - [9] - Quote The Last Shepherd wrote: we need mines or some sort of trap for tanks where you can set up and hide, going toe to toe is insane I heard "Webslinger", something to slow down vehicles.
Buzzwords Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 416	Posted - 2012.09.11 10:03:00 - [10] - Quote you math is off. a 60% damage reduction leaves the forge gun with 40% of it's damage, or: 1340X.4=536. you multiplied by .6, or: 1340X.6=804 which would represent a 40% damage reduction. so in reality it's much much worse.

Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.11 10:04:00 - [11] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: you math is off. a 60% damage reduction leaves the forge gun with 40% of it's damage, or: 1340X.4=536. you multiplied by .6, or: 1340X.6=804 which would represent a 40% damage reduction. so in reality it's much much worse. Edited. Thank you very much for noticing that. I got the numbers mixed up it seems.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.11 10:06:00 - [12] - Quote TiMeSpLiT--TeR wrote: That's why they're going to buff AV and Forgeguns on the next build. I believe 25% more. Which would then make the damage of the Forge Gun 1600, minus 60% resists makes it 960. 6000 divided by 960 = 6.25 rounds, effectively 14 seconds of charge/fire time with an -officer- forge gun. A little better but not by much, especially with the movement penalties involved - the Titan dropsuit will only make that worse.
Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.11 10:16:00 - [13] - Quote I still think the solution is needing more than one player for a tank to work so they're not just giant win buttons and become more of a strategic deployment.
Tyas Borg Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 112	Posted - 2012.09.11 10:19:00 - [14] - Quote So your complaining that two guys can't take out a 3 man tank which probably costs more than their fits combined and multiplied by at least 3..... People seem obsessed with this idea that 1-2 guys should insta pop a tank. You even say yourself that 2 forge gunners would make a tank run. I'd go as far to say that one can. The point here is that the tank HAS to move and your denying it whatever it was doing. The fact it's not dead isn't the issue, the AV has done it's job and the tank is gone. Besides the fact that if the tank didn't run, then it'd be dead so AV is fine?, no?. I've not used the Forge gun this build, but I'm on the receiving end of it a lot and to me it does it's job. If I hear the thing fire up I run, if I don't I'm as good as dead and if not I have to retreat out of the fight to recover. I have however used the swarm launcher and anybody saying tanks are OP HASN'T specced into swarms. I can kill Marauders and make them run like girls on my own with lvl 2 Swarms... Yeah AV is really broken...not. How about people actually spec into countering it?. I've seen organised groups of 4 devastate a tank, just because they can't be solo'd doesn't mean they're OP. Personally the only true counter to a tank should be a tank or some kind of artillery/tank killer vehicle. I will admit that there's an issue with how many tanks we see in a single match however, but this could all be eliminated through the use of War Points cost to deploy or just limiting the amount of tanks. Can we make it so that 2 frigates can pop a titan in EvE CCP?, this is obviously what the Dust player base wants as far as vehicles go. Simply buffing AV is not the answer. There's tonnes of systems that could be deployed to balance them, simply crying nerf or buff is total crap imo. For example how about making vehicle weapons do 75% AV damage and 25% AI damage?, in fact no lets go with crying over numbers and shout buff AV waaahhhhh!!111!
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.11 10:32:00 - [15] - Quote Tyas Borg wrote: So your complaining that two guys can't take out a 3 man tank which probably costs more than their fits combined and multiplied by at least 3..... People seem obsessed with this idea that 1-2 guys should insta pop a tank. You even say yourself that 2 forge gunners would make a tank run. I'd go as far to say that one can. The point here is that the tank HAS to move and your denying it whatever it was doing. The fact it's not dead isn't the issue, the AV has done it's job and the tank is gone. Besides the fact that if the tank didn't run, then it'd be dead so AV is fine?, no?. I've not used the Forge gun this build, but I'm on the receiving end of it a lot and to me it does it's job. If I hear the thing fire up I run, if I don't I'm as good as dead and if not I have to retreat out of the fight to recover. I have however used the swarm launcher and anybody saying tanks are OP HASN'T specced into swarms. I can kill Marauders and make them run like girls on my own with lvl 2 Swarms... Yeah AV is really broken...not. How about people actually spec into countering it?. I've seen organised groups of 4 devastate a tank, just because they can't be solo'd doesn't mean they're OP. Personally the only true counter to a tank should be a tank or some kind of artillery/tank killer vehicle. I will admit that there's an issue with how many tanks we see in a single match however, but this could all be eliminated through the use of War Points cost to deploy or just limiting the amount of tanks. Can we make it so that 2 frigates can pop a titan in EvE CCP?, this is obviously what the Dust player base wants as far as vehicles go. Simply buffing AV is not the answer. There's tonnes of systems that could be deployed to balance them, simply crying nerf or buff is total crap imo. For example how about making vehicle weapons do 75% AV damage and 25% AI damage?, in fact no lets go with crying over numbers and shout buff AV waaahhhhh!!111! A proto forge gun costs hundreds of thousands of isk and there's not much in the way of being absolutely destroyed just trying to use the damned thing. Take into account damage modifiers (that are worth a damn) adding onto that price, plus the suit cost, and that -one- forge gunner costs about a fourth or third of what you're paying for the tank. Even then, this math is with an OFFICER Forge Gun which you can't get on the market. It shouldn't take an entire third of the team to work on -ONE- tank, let alone the entire enemy team using them. Running is one thing but these Tank Drivers have nothing to fear when they can take that many rounds of AV weaponry when all it takes is a single Railgun round - hell, even a single round from the Missile Launcher is enough to **** up a Heavy with the Camera Jerk throwing the aim off. You're assuming the -BEST- of situations when clearly that will only ever happen rarely, you're being way too optimistic about this. EVEN THEN you're not taking into account the hordes of organized infantry that can turn a Forge Gunner into swiss cheese before he even considers going toe-to-toe with a Tank. Try again.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.11 11:08:00 - [16] - Quote Now do that math on a fit i used to use. 7000 Shields <----NOT Effective hitpoints this is just base And 3 x 25% resistance mods Might as well ignore the armor. Team of AV cant do anything to this unless I went afk or somthing. Its main weakness is um other tanks. Edit ow and dotn forget Shield managment 5 unless thats dont stack on tanks it did in last build so er best check. Then once you work out how long it takes you can then add the shield regen over that time and throw it into the mix. Also none of this takes into account as a railgun tank dirver I can wipe out that whole squad in two shakes of a lambs tail.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 197	Posted - 2012.09.11 11:26:00 - [17] - Quote Mechanics Stacking penalties implement diminishing marginal returns (see [1]) for bonuses. Every additional bonus added to an attribute has its effect diminished until there is practically no incentive to add another bonus. The formula for the stacking penalty is: S(n) = 0.5^[((n-1) / 2.22292081) ^2] n = the nth module added S = stacking effect for this particular module addition From this, we can know the following: Modules Effect of nth module Cumulative bonuses with N modules ,each giving 10% Cumulative bonuses with N modules ,each giving 20% 1 100% 10 % 20 % 2 87% 19.6% 40.9% 3 57% 26.4% 56.9% 4 28% 29.9% 65.7% 5 10.5% 31.3% 69.2% 6 3% 31.7% 70.2% Adding more than 3 modules of same type brings only very minor bonuses - fourth module will bring only 9% instead of 20% bonus (or 3% instead of 10%). see simple
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.09.11 11:27:00 - [18] - Quote Honestly, most of the issue here is that the AV weapons were nerfed to the point of ineffectiveness against HAVs unless you use them in large numbers. This appears to have been in response to how worthless HAVs were when they first released this new build after nerfing them into the ground and exponentially increasing their cost, when the cost increase itself would have done just fine what with the inclusion of the new, more powerful, and more deadly AV grenades. The moral of the story, yet again, is to stop nerfing things. We need more sandbox before we start swinging the nerf bat around. We don't want a repeat of Starhawk.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.11 11:30:00 - [19] - Quote You say this but I felt unstoppable befor the AV nerf.
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.09.11 11:34:00 - [20] - Quote This thread proves beyond a doubt tanks are OP versus AV.

Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.09.11 11:34:00 - [21] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: You say this but I felt unstoppable befor the AV nerf. I had 2 Sagaris' for the first Precursor deployment, and as soon as I looked over their new stats, I never even used them. First match I went into featured 3 of them dying within 5 minutes to AV grenades. Another important thing to note is that they were dying to AV grenades and Swarms used IN A GROUP. Always squad up, and always surround/trap. Once they re-buff AV and put in the Stasis Webifier mines, the current stats on HAVs are going to make operating them suicidal.
Tyas Borg Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 112	Posted - 2012.09.11 11:36:00 - [22] - Quote So let me get this straight. Your basing all this on the fact a salvage only weapon can't kill a proto Tank?. As far as I'm aware that doesn't mean it's the best, just a lot rarer and a greater loss to lose one. How about picking something readily available so it doesn't look one sided as hell. Sure if you lose something rare your gonna rage more. I still stand by my argument about Swarms, you obviously haven't tried it. I can make a loadout using the Assault 2 suit with lvl 2 swarms and damage modifiers and it eats marauders. Doesn't cost hardly anything per spawn. The cost argument on the forge is still valid, my tank costs 2-3 mill isk. That means those two guys have 3-4 lives to attack me, yet I have one?. Yeah that's really fair and balanced that is... Seriously, it sounds more like your complaining about heavy's/forge's being broken than Tanks, (which to be fair I think they are). Plus I'd like to point out that your basing your "facts" on the descriptions given to us on the items. I know for a fact that CCP has dropped a ******* on a fair few of the stats. AV grenades, for example, read 200 odd damage now and did even back in last patch where they did like 1-2k.... Until all CCP's gameplay systems and correct stats are in place, posts like this thread are totally irrelevant and nothing more than whines tbh. NONE of us know what's being planned and raging that something is OP now is pointless. I'll quite confidently say that I'm one of the better HAV drivers out there and I have to run, a lot. We are not invincible, far from it. The problem comes when 90% of the people your playing are total idiots, refuse to work together or adapt to a situation. On the US servers they don't even attempt to deal with tanks and on the EU servers at least they shoot at you with something other than their AR, sometimes.
Tyas Borg Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 112	Posted - 2012.09.11 11:39:00 - [23] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Sha Kharn Clone wrote: You say this but I felt unstoppable befor the AV nerf. I had 2 Sagaris' for the first Precursor deployment, and as soon as I looked over their new stats, I never even used them. First match I went into featured 3 of them dying within 5 minutes to AV grenades. Another important thing to note is that they were dying to AV grenades and Swarms used IN A GROUP. Always squad up, and always surround/trap. Once they re-buff AV and put in the Stasis Webifier mines, the current stats on HAVs are going to make operating them suicidal. Don't forget how the adaptation and other skills/stats are currently broken for vehicles. Nerfing/buffing anything before the basics of skills is fixed is totally pointless and a waste of time imo.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.11 12:13:00 - [24] - Quote Tyas Borg wrote: So let me get this straight. Your basing all this on the fact a salvage only weapon can't kill a proto Tank?. As far as I'm aware that doesn't mean it's the best, just a lot rarer and a greater loss to lose one. How about picking something readily available so it doesn't look one sided as hell. Sure if you lose something rare your gonna rage more. I still stand by my argument about Swarms, you obviously haven't tried it. I can make a loadout using the Assault 2 suit with lvl 2 swarms and damage modifiers and it eats marauders. Doesn't cost hardly anything per spawn. The cost argument on the forge is still valid, my tank costs 2-3 mill isk. That means those two guys have 3-4 lives to attack me, yet I have one?. Yeah that's really fair and balanced that is... Seriously, it sounds more like your complaining about heavy's/forge's being broken than Tanks, (which to be fair I think they are). Plus I'd like to point out that your basing your "facts" on the descriptions given to us on the items. I know for a fact that CCP has dropped a ***** on a fair few of the stats. AV grenades, for example, read 200 odd damage now and did even back in last patch where they did like 1-2k.... Until all CCP's gameplay systems and correct stats are in place, posts like this thread are totally irrelevant and nothing more than whines tbh. NONE of us know what's being planned and raging that something is OP now is pointless. I'll quite confidently say that I'm one of the better HAV drivers out there and I have to run, a lot. We are not invincible, far from it. The problem comes when 90% of the people your playing are total idiots, refuse to work together or adapt to a situation. On the US servers they don't even attempt to deal with tanks and on the EU servers at least they shoot at you with something other than their AR, sometimes. Are you high? The Officer Forge Gun is comparable to a Prototype - it does -MORE- damage than the Prototype and doesn't come with the added bit of - yanno -being completely immovable. You still haven't acknowledged the fact that we're talking about more than one tank here, you're just blindly defending them to death by trying to strawman the argument so it's easier for you to defeat by searching for various outs like Swarm Launchers and picking out that I used a salvage only weapon - the best by many aspects not just by damage but having HALF the charge up time as it's paid for variant as your defense. You're a troll - and until you come up with something valid to support your bullshit argument I'm fairly sure myself and everyone here will just ignore you from this point forward because you're not contributing to either side, you're throwing out meaningless forms that aren't even remotely related so that you can keep your insanely difficult to destroy tank. Even under the best of circumstances you might lose that -one- tank but the ISK you'll gain from having it will -more- than cover all the matches you haven't lost the damned thing when there are only three effective counters to it: Tank, Forge Guns, Swarm Launchers - where as the Forge Gunners/Swarm Launchers can get killed by freaking -EVERYTHING- in this game. Hell, a ill-timed vehicle drop can kill a fully proto-outfitted soldier and you're bitching because "Tanks should be over-powered". I call absolute bullshit - yes, Tanks should be over-powered, but constructively so. Not frakking invulnerable, numerous, and easy to replace as they are. Sure the 1.2 million price tag sucks but considering how ***** difficult they are to kill it's not like you're going to lose it -every- round. Speaking from experience, tanks in real-life are susceptible to all sorts of means of being destroyed. A pitfall with RPG rounds pointed straight up killed an M1 Abrams once, a Bridge collapse drowned another's crew - yet because this is a game I can't do these things. Find another thread to spread your propaganda.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.11 12:15:00 - [25] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Sha Kharn Clone wrote: You say this but I felt unstoppable befor the AV nerf. I had 2 Sagaris' for the first Precursor deployment, and as soon as I looked over their new stats, I never even used them. First match I went into featured 3 of them dying within 5 minutes to AV grenades. Another important thing to note is that they were dying to AV grenades and Swarms used IN A GROUP. Always squad up, and always surround/trap. Once they re-buff AV and put in the Stasis Webifier mines, the current stats on HAVs are going to make operating them suicidal. Pre-"hotfix" which nerfed AV grenade damage by 25%, Forge Gun damage by 25%, and Swarm Launcher lock-on range to 400m. Webifier mines aren't going to do jack of **** when there's five tanks on the field dude. I mentioned this in my original post and you seemed to have completely ignored that fact - but it's whatever, I don't expect Precursor Tank Drivers to be logical.
Raynor Ragna 266	Posted - 2012.09.11 14:42:00 - [26] - Quote If two guys can't do it in a timely manner, bring three or four. Why try to barely kill a tank when you can bend the mofo over. Anytime the enemy deploys a tank, a good portion of your team should go to the nearly resupply and get into an AV fit and kill it dead.. Then switch back.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.09.11 14:53:00 - [27] - Quote Raynor Ragna wrote: If two guys can't do it in a timely manner, bring three or four. Why try to barely kill a tank when you can bend the mofo over. Anytime the enemy deploys a tank, a good portion of your team should go to the nearly resupply and get into an AV fit and kill it dead.. Then switch back. You realize tanks can drive faster than scouts (with kinetic catalyzers no less) can sprint?
Whispercrow Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.09.11 17:57:00 - [28] - Quote Shield Resist Amps and the Damage Control should not add to each other. They should follow the rule of diminishing returns, exactly as they do in EVE. I'm fine with a tank resisting 50% of all damage. Resisting 80%? That's just nuts.
General Rian Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2012.09.11 18:06:00 - [29] - Quote Whispercrow wrote: Shield Resist Amps and the Damage Control should not add to each other. They should follow the rule of diminishing returns, exactly as they do in EVE. I'm fine with a tank resisting 50% of all damage. Resisting 80%? That's just nuts. Damage controls in Eve are not affected by armor/shield hardeners in Eve. They apply their full resistance boost, and hardeners apply their full boost (with stacking penalties for additional hardeners obviously)... And even with the best Damage control and 3x 25% resistance mods on my HAVs... awell put together squad/group (3-4 players) can turn my HAV into Swiss cheese. All you people are doing is whining. And when HAVs get nerfed into the ground to the point of useless (like you people seem to want), people will just stop using them... and CCP will be forced to return them to what they were pre-nerf where they should have stayed.
Scholar Him Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 29	Posted - 2012.09.11 19:07:00 - [30] - Quote Gooly wrote: I still think the solution is needing more than one player for a tank to work so they're not just giant win buttons and become more of a strategic deployment. Exactly. If it take 4 players to kill a tank, it should take 4 players to operate a tank. Fair should be fair, in a game at least.



Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page