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scouts and issue balancing with them. and stuff on movement

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Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.25 03:34:00 - [1] - Quote Scout are being abused in this build which has lined them up in the nerf gun sight. All the threads mention them to some degree and their overpoweredness, so I came into this build on the look out for scouts and issue related to them so far what I noticed is this >thier high stafing speed paired with a person leading his target to hit it cause people to miss when they are shooting a strafing scout. >their lightning fast movements and agility nean they move faster than are gun can track or are brains can keep up These two things are why scouts are so hard to hit combined with hit detection and lag spikes they are op. But I don't think a nerf is what's needed they are scouts right, light and fast? GÇó tweak all suits tracking speed by margins of 3% until all turning speeds of all the suits ate pretty well balanced witg their streagth and weakness in mind. (heavy need some love) GÇó the movement of all suits need to be tweaked up and down until its proper balanced with the suits streagths and weakness do this by margins of 3% until its just right (scouts need a 3 to 9% slower movement and assaults should be tad faster this is wete the tweaking by margins would be handy) I think some tweaking is in order overall rather than a hard nerf to scouts. GÇó a simple game mechanic to help agianst strafing if anyones interested is to cause a slight pause when a player changes direction like in strafing tje pause would be no more than 15mili seconds GÇó a interesting game mechanic would be to have suits move slower when going up hill and faster when going down hill. Here the first thread on my 6 part testing of this new build https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33039&find=unread
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.25 05:37:00 - [2] - Quote I can understands some people calling for a flat nerf though. I just played a game where do to lag the scout just appeared in places and never seem to acyually move to them like he just teleported there. I know this is do to lag and ping and those kinda things something ccp needs to get right. But I think even after a few awful experiences with scout opmess and abuse that teeaking would be better
STB Vermaak Doe 558	Posted - 2012.08.25 05:38:00 - [3] - Quote Give scouts the same hitbox as assaults.Nuff SaidGäó
Burger Helper 84	Posted - 2012.08.25 05:43:00 - [4] - Quote i dont think anyone is asking scouts to be nerfed outright, just for hit detection to be fixed fixing hit detection would be a nerf in and of itself
Jin Robot Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 330	Posted - 2012.08.25 05:53:00 - [5] - Quote If they nerfed scouts they would just be weak assaults, I believe the subject is magnified into an issue because of hit detection. I read something the devs said about scouts being able to kite around heavies. That is the balance they get for having paper for armor.
Jin Robot Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 330	Posted - 2012.08.25 05:58:00 - [6] - Quote Also after rereading the op it seems as if you want all classes to be barely different. Heavies dont need love, they have more armor. Its a balance, pros and cons. Maybe you want gta multiplayer, all the players in that have the same turn speed.
Rorek IronBlood ZionTCD Legacy Rising 746	Posted - 2012.08.25 06:05:00 - [7] - Quote Ha-ha! Oh lord another one of these? For real?! Ha-ha-ha! - Puts on monacle, and laughs maniacally. -- Grief for me! Your tears and hatred only make me stronger!
Rorek IronBlood ZionTCD Legacy Rising 746	Posted - 2012.08.25 06:09:00 - [8] - Quote Burger Helper wrote: i dont think anyone is asking scouts to be nerfed outright, just for hit detection to be fixed fixing hit detection would be a nerf in and of itself Hit detection has made leaps and bounds recently, but agreed. Continuing improvment is always a plus. I would not mind if CCP was to keep improving and smoothing out the hit detection. Though of course that would mean dealing with the in-game lag coming from the resource drains, and stress. It's all about number crunching in the end.
Kyzar Sosai 8	Posted - 2012.08.25 06:44:00 - [9] - Quote I've really had little problem hunting down n pwning scouts for the most part! Its funny watching them scamper in fear when you come barreling at them locked n loaded
Rugman91 Deep Space Republic 143	Posted - 2012.08.25 09:31:00 - [10] - Quote I think side to side movement should be decreased for all suits. It just looks unnatural

Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.08.25 09:50:00 - [11] - Quote Not findign it hard to kills scouts with the HGM. When a scout gets behind me and I dont know about well well played.
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2012.08.25 10:24:00 - [12] - Quote I play an assault and a heavy and never had really any problems with these scouts. Sure they might kill me once or twice in a match when they suddenly jump out from middle of nowhere and fill me with holes before I even can react. But in pretty much every other situation I don't really see what the problem is. Sure I might need to aim slightly more in the direction they are moving, but other than that the fights have been pretty equal or highly on my advantage (I tend to stay on medium/semi-long range with my Tactical AR.) with a heavy you can pretty much spray and pray them to death if you lack in the aiming skills department, it's likely that you'll still win thanks to the high armor hp. Not to mention if you move in a group, someone else will likely kill the scout before he even manages to deal any considerable damage.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.08.25 10:54:00 - [13] - Quote There is a weird hit detection glitch. Fixing this glitch could solve issue. I have shot scout 3 times with charge rifle, seen the blue shield flash, no damage. I moved about 10m to right and first shoot killed him. Another time I get behind scout with shotgun, fire point blank couple time for no damage, switch to smg that works normal and shotgun worked on other suits. Had this happen with an assault once, seen it many times with scout. Most of time hit detection is fine, have to lead a lot even with shotgun at close range. A faster turning skill could be added, also a faster move skill, both would be popular with heavies I bet. Skill could only raise straight line speed, second tier for strafing. This would give a skill for anti-scout(and general use for heavy weapons), that can be countered by an even higher skill investment to go back to start. maybe x2 for turning and speed skill, x3-4 for strafing skill, -5% per level for all. This would give heavy/assault counter and option of anti-scout specialist. Run and gun scouts would be an advanced specialty with a lot to train. A module that allowed faster turning. base speed and strafe speed modules would be nice too.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 583	Posted - 2012.08.25 11:12:00 - [14] - Quote Hmm scouts are thin, lightweight, fast units designed to speed tank....yeah they're working as intended. If you want to do some very minor tweaking that's fine, but scouts are very close to where they should be, in fact all the suits feel like they're around where they should be. The problem lies within hit detection, which is obviously an ongoing work in progress. So stop complaining about scouts, they're not broken, the hit detection is. As someone stated before, a fix to that is enough of a nerf to the scout suit
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.25 14:18:00 - [15] - Quote No suit should strafe faster than a suit can track. I'll add heavies as an exception because that was supposedly a way to balance the Armor + HMG combo from being OP. Just because you can track something doesn't mean you're going to hit it - you still have to aim. If a scout gets the jump on you, then you should die, but in a straight up brawl a scout should lose and lose horribly.
Luna Vuhrast Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 23	Posted - 2012.08.25 14:58:00 - [16] - Quote I have found logistics to be FAR more squishy than scouts, I doubt that was intended.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.08.25 15:28:00 - [17] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: >thier high stafing speed paired with a person leading his target to hit it cause people to miss when they are shooting a strafing scout. >their lightning fast movements and agility nean they move faster than are gun can track or are brains can keep up These two points are valid. I may be over interpreting but the first seems to tie in with the "hit detection" problem. Which might have a lot to do with latency. Basically, when your sight or reticle is over the character model of your opponent and you fire, they take no damage. Sometimes it seems like the no damage is due to lag, since with various rates of fire a strafing scout can dodge back and forth through a stream of assault rifle fire and seemingly not get hit. But basically the hit box doesn't seem to line up with the animation of the character model with the reticle, scope, or sight. So if you lead the target you are trying to guess where their hit box will be by the time your shot gets to where you think they are going to end up. Too much work. FIrst, scouts should not be able to run faster than the speed of your rounds. If they can then they are too fast and problem is less to do with hit detection than speed of round from gun to target vs. speed of scout. But yeah, you should just be able to put your reticle on where anyone is, hit fire button, do damage. Second point is also important, a scout should not be able to strafe faster than your gun can move if you are pushing the control to move your gun at maximum speed. If scouts can move faster than turn speed they are too fast. Because even if a player had a fast brain and very good eye hand coordination they would not be able to push the reticle fast enough to shoot the scout. The game would be getting in the way with slow reticle speed. Way to test this would be to have a scout run in a circle around you at top speed and see if you can keep reticle on the scout. If the aiming speed is as it should be then you should be able to move the reticle faster than the scout can move. Unless they are really close.
Ranger SnakeBlood 38	Posted - 2012.08.25 15:41:00 - [18] - Quote After playing a bit of Scout shotgun and SMG combo i find they are directly able to abuse the hit detection to such a extentd when i got the jump and opened fire while strafing the frame rate drops as well as the fella i just abushed not able to land a single shot on me a single scout should not be able to take down 2 troops a assult and logi in this example because they can move fast, i think to balence the game the strafing speed should not equal foward movement for all suits and ARs in general compared to SMG and shoguns are under powered. Also on a side note Logi suits seem to be way under powered in combat i know its not a pure combat role but neiter should scout which should fit a reckon and intelligence role rather than pure out combat it excels at now, to be honest i havent noticed the underpowered ness of ARS and logis till i played as scout and realised they were having no joy killing me at all.
OG DonHel 65	Posted - 2012.08.25 15:44:00 - [19] - Quote My scout gets blasted by shotguns, snipers, and grenades like all day when they get the chance to. The occasional AR gets me aswell. It seems to me that some people just can't keep up with the speed or something and that there really isn't anything wrong with the scout. Stop chasing scouts and shoot something else? stay in groups where there is something that can counter a scout? I don't know, but I don't feel they are broken and need nerfed. Everything has it's pros and cons.. I could be ranting that the shotgun is OP because it near ALWAYS gets a killshot on me when my scout gets to close.. but I don't, because thats what it does :p
Jak Teston Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 99	Posted - 2012.08.25 15:44:00 - [20] - Quote I have no problem tracking scouts at their current speed. The issue is just that when I'm firing a SMG at over 40 rounds a second in the path of a scout he can strafe through my sights twice without taking any damage at all. The issue is reduced a lot by good latency so I think it's just some inexperience on the part of the netcode designer being at play here. Disclaimer: I absolutely respect the skill of people who use the scout suit well and I don't fret it when I'm outmaneuvered by them. But I do feel annoyed when I can visually identify a scout as being in my sights at 3 meters distance without registering any hits.

Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.25 16:16:00 - [21] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Hmm scouts are thin, lightweight, fast units designed to speed tank....yeah they're working as intended. If you want to do some very minor tweaking that's fine, but scouts are very close to where they should be, in fact all the suits feel like they're around where they should be. The problem lies within hit detection, which is obviously an ongoing work in progress. So stop complaining about scouts, they're not broken, the hit detection is. As someone stated before, a fix to that is enough of a nerf to the scout suit Hit detection is a major issue but I'm just asking for all the suits to be tweaked.a bit, not noticable but enougg to affect them. When a scout runs across the screen faster than I can realize he is even on my screen they are to fast. However the scouts are suppose to be fast which is why a 3% decrease would help it would hardly affect scout and how they play, but it would slow them down just enough. Jin Robot wrote: Also after rereading the op it seems as if you want all classes to be barely different. Heavies dont need love, they have more armor. Its a balance, pros and cons. Maybe you want gta multiplayer, all the players in that have the same turn speed. I not asking for them to be the same just tweak there stats a small bit 3% increase and decrease in certain states eould subtle affect the scouts but wouldn't change them outright. Moderation in tweaking is all I'm asking for very.small very minor changes that people wouldn't notice but would balance out the suits compared to each other. I hope I clarifed it a better than my op Pokey Dravon wrote: Hmm scouts are thin, lightweight, fast units designed to speed tank....yeah they're working as intended. If you want to do some very minor tweaking that's fine, but scouts are very close to where they should be, in fact all the suits feel like they're around where they should be. The problem lies within hit detection, which is obviously an ongoing work in progress. So stop complaining about scouts, they're not broken, the hit detection is. As someone stated before, a fix to that is enough of a nerf to the scout suit That's all I think is necessary very small amounts of tweaking to all suits turn speeds and to all suits movement just enough so we cant notice it but still there and balancing it out. What I'm suggesting, you wouldn't even notice (Forgive spelling mistakes did this on my phone)
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.08.25 16:55:00 - [22] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: >their lightning fast movements and agility nean they move faster than are gun can track or are brains can keep up Am I the only one who noticed this? Emphasis mine. The only reason I bring this up is to highlight the quality of individual commenting on reducing the scout class down. If anything, this should serve as a clear warning to not pander to the mass opinion.
STB Vermaak Doe 558	Posted - 2012.08.25 16:59:00 - [23] - Quote Norbar Recturus wrote: Avenger 245 wrote: >their lightning fast movements and agility nean they move faster than are gun can track or are brains can keep up Am I the only one who noticed this? Emphasis mine. The only reason I bring this up is to highlight the quality of individual commenting on reducing the scout class down. If anything, this should serve as a clear warning to not pander to the mass opinion. Slight spelling mistakes do not make a point invalid, even with max sensitivity he can track but the actual problem is that the hits don't register when we actually direct our guns on them
OG DonHel 65	Posted - 2012.08.25 17:01:00 - [24] - Quote Norbar Recturus wrote: Avenger 245 wrote: >their lightning fast movements and agility nean they move faster than are gun can track or are brains can keep up Am I the only one who noticed this? Emphasis mine. The only reason I bring this up is to highlight the quality of individual commenting on reducing the scout class down. If anything, this should serve as a clear warning to not pander to the mass opinion. you must be a republican ( joke ) He presented a valid argument in his OP, insulting one line of it because of the spelling is not a valid counter argument I would think. So, with that I think he won the argument over you, if you think he is wrong why don't you actualy give some input on why. Other then he can't spell right when he is putting all that **** on here with a phone...
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.08.25 17:03:00 - [25] - Quote A bunch of us have mentioned the prob with scouts plenty of times. (both in this thread and many others) The prob is not with the speed of the scout, it's with the hit detection. The ideal solution would be to fix the "now improved, but still flawed" hit detection. This will make the scout mortal in cqc, at least to those with decent aim. As it stand right now, a scout can LITERALLY run THROUGH a stream of bullets, and nothing will register. This would be better than nerfing the speed because a. it still doesn't fix the flawed hit detection b. will likely ruin the scout completely, because of the low hp scouts have. They will lose their ONE advantage and become COMPLETELY useless.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.25 17:06:00 - [26] - Quote Norbar Recturus wrote: Avenger 245 wrote: >their lightning fast movements and agility nean they move faster than are gun can track or are brains can keep up Am I the only one who noticed this? Emphasis mine. The only reason I bring this up is to highlight the quality of individual commenting on reducing the scout class down. If anything, this should serve as a clear warning to not pander to the mass opinion. Scouts shouldn't strafe faster than an Assault can track. You can avoid nerfing the scout strafe speed just by increasing suit tracking speed. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times... Just because you have the potential to hit someone with faster tracking, doesn't mean you will. You STILL have to aim because no amount of tracking speed increase is going to help against a well-played scout if you cannot place your shots well. I notice hit detection issues on all the suits, but the problem is magnified 10 fold on scouts.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.25 17:36:00 - [27] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: A bunch of us have mentioned the prob with scouts plenty of times. (both in this thread and many others) The prob is not with the speed of the scout, it's with the hit detection. The ideal solution would be to fix the "now improved, but still flawed" hit detection. This will make the scout mortal in cqc, at least to those with decent aim. As it stand right now, a scout can LITERALLY run THROUGH a stream of bullets, and nothing will register. This would be better than nerfing the speed because a. it still doesn't fix the flawed hit detection b. will likely ruin the scout completely, because of the low hp scouts have. They will lose their ONE advantage and become COMPLETELY useless. Their advantage is their smaller hit box, sig radius and speed. Presumably, they'll have a better synthesis with cloaking modules as well. Asking to turn their strafing speed from 5.6 to 5.4 doesn't make scout useless, it reinforces their role. That role being assassination, recon and backstabbing. NOT straight up duels and brawling. THAT is the Assault's role. Before I touched their speed, I would first increase the speed that Assault and Logi can track, if there is still a problem then maybe drop the Scout strafe speed down a peg. But no one is asking to give scouts the same 5.0-5.1 strafe speed that Assaults currently have.
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.08.25 22:24:00 - [28] - Quote Quote: He presented a valid argument in his OP, insulting one line of it because of the spelling is not a valid counter argument I would think. So, with that I think he won the argument over you, if you think he is wrong why don't you actualy give some input on why. Sure. I had some massive post written but it did not post correctly and the auto-save feature eliminated my draft. Pardon me if some points seem rushed but I didn't want to spend an eon typing something for the second time. Scouts have too much radial / angular velocity when strafing Assaults. This makes them hard to track. This is the POINT of the scout. Speed is useful for two reasons: It allows us to evade damage (AKA speed tanking) and it allows us to control the engagement distance from target to target. A CQC scout with SMG / Shotgun and Myofibrils is obviously going to want to get close to you whereas a sniper recon scout is obviously going to try and set the distance as far apart as possible. Tracking speed is what allows someone who dies in literally three hits from most weapons to survive as they get into the chosen engagement zone. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason you can't track a scout suit is because you're not moving properly? You need to take an elliptical movement path so that you have great values of radial velocity relative to the Scout. Moving in a straight line or circle isn't going to cut it. TL;DR: Play better, don't nerf the scout. Scouts have a hitbox which is too narrow This is actually where our greatest defense comes into play. A narrow (thin) hitbox allows us to better escape grenades, splash weapons, and high ROF guns which would normally obliterate our class given the thin shields and armor that we have. Scouts should at all times be played as hit-and-run or recon sniper, to do anything else is asking for trouble. If you increase our hitbox, you need to give us passive damage reduction relative to how fast we're moving... and that just brings up problems for everyone. Scouts strafe too quickly See above: I'm wearing paper and a party dress for my armor. Back up and engage me at a distance you can track. Scouts are unkillable because they jump around too much This depends on what type of jumping you're referring to. If you're talking about "jitter" then the problem is lag, and that's on you... not on CCP. If you're talking about actual jumping in-game: they can't alter trajectory in the air, just kill them. If you're too close, that's your fault. Hit detection makes scouts invulnerable This is again a problem of CCP and the engine and not in the scout suit. This complaint is irrelevant. There you go. Address them and we'll dance.
Bo Tracta Celtic Anarchy 56	Posted - 2012.08.25 22:34:00 - [29] - Quote Here's something I said in a similar thread, what the OP said about pauses while strafing reminded me - "If there was proper inertia on player movement then twitch strafing might not be such a problem, because when suddenly trying to go in the opposite direction the player would virtually stop for a split second, giving you a chance to get a few decent shots in. Obviously scouts would still be less affected by this than other classes, but it might be enough to lessen their CQC advantage a bit and keep them moving straight around their opponent and moving from cover to cover, like they should be. BTW it's not just scouts that are capable of twitch-strafing, all the suits (apart from heavies probably) can move side-to-side erratically to avoid bullets, I've done it with a type-1 logi."
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.25 22:43:00 - [30] - Quote Bo Tracta wrote: Here's something I said in a similar thread, what the OP said about pauses while strafing reminded me - "If there was proper inertia on player movement then twitch strafing might not be such a problem, because when suddenly trying to go in the opposite direction the player would virtually stop for a split second, giving you a chance to get a few decent shots in. Obviously scouts would still be less affected by this than other classes, but it might be enough to lessen their CQC advantage a bit and keep them moving straight around their opponent and moving from cover to cover, like they should be. BTW it's not just scouts that are capable of twitch-strafing, all the suits (apart from heavies probably) can move side-to-side erratically to avoid bullets, I've done it with a type-1 logi." i like that idea it would be a very basic fix stopping when they change direction. going to have to forgive spelling mistakes i doing this on my phone so i have no clue what im typing.



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