DUST Search - scouts and issue balancing with them. and stuff on movement

Abron Garr wrote:

Norbar Recturus wrote:

Abron Garr wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Abron Garr wrote:

No suit should strafe faster than a suit can track.

Isn't that kind of the idea behind speed tanking?

In Eve sure. When they introduce auto-target with TEs and TCs using tracking scripts then I will happily concede your point. Since we have to manually target in Dust, as it should be in any respectable FPS, my aim should be my only limiting factor.

By that logic I should be able to:

jump in the air and spin 720 degrees rapidly. That's a limit factor to killing people who pop up randomly while I'm in the air
whip a heavy machine gun around like a spinning top of doom
use a forge gun like an exploding sledgehammer

Let me fix your sentence:

Since we have to manually target in Dust there should be skills or modules which allow me to spin faster because Dust is not a traditional FPS.

You're still thinking inside the CoD / Battlefield box. Imagine what EVE would be like if you had the option of Joystick manual control integrated suddenly. The game has been (and will forever be) a point-and-click MMO... but now there's the "element of skill" in piloting a ship "traditionally" like a "respectable vehicle sim game."

Also, you never addressed a single one of my points. Nice dodge.

I addressed every point in the quoted post. Perhaps you have me confused with another person. Don't put words in my mouth.

I guess context isn't a word that holds much meaning with you. Your list is as trivial as your argument. So, because Heavies turn slower with an HMG (intended to limit the deadly potential of the HMG), Scouts should be able to step all over the role that Assault was intended to play? Scouts aren't supposed to be front line troops, their role is Assassination and backstabbing. And BTW, no one is saying that a scout shouldn't be the fastest strafing suit. My argument is their strafing speed should not be faster than an Assault can track. You either nerf their strafing speed or boost how fast Assaults track. Just as I as an Assault should not go head to head with a Heavy, a Scout should not go head to head with an Assault. Otherwise, why play anything but Scout?

And yes, I do think highly of BF and COD. You would have to be a moron to deny that both games got a lot of things right. Both are successful franchises and it would be idiotic to completely ignore their success. TOR ignored previous successful MMO features and they're paying for it now. I don't want Dust to do the same.


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Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.08.25 16:55:00 - [1] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: >their lightning fast movements and agility nean they move faster than are gun can track or are brains can keep up Am I the only one who noticed this? Emphasis mine. The only reason I bring this up is to highlight the quality of individual commenting on reducing the scout class down. If anything, this should serve as a clear warning to not pander to the mass opinion.
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.08.25 22:24:00 - [2] - Quote Quote: He presented a valid argument in his OP, insulting one line of it because of the spelling is not a valid counter argument I would think. So, with that I think he won the argument over you, if you think he is wrong why don't you actualy give some input on why. Sure. I had some massive post written but it did not post correctly and the auto-save feature eliminated my draft. Pardon me if some points seem rushed but I didn't want to spend an eon typing something for the second time. Scouts have too much radial / angular velocity when strafing Assaults. This makes them hard to track. This is the POINT of the scout. Speed is useful for two reasons: It allows us to evade damage (AKA speed tanking) and it allows us to control the engagement distance from target to target. A CQC scout with SMG / Shotgun and Myofibrils is obviously going to want to get close to you whereas a sniper recon scout is obviously going to try and set the distance as far apart as possible. Tracking speed is what allows someone who dies in literally three hits from most weapons to survive as they get into the chosen engagement zone. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason you can't track a scout suit is because you're not moving properly? You need to take an elliptical movement path so that you have great values of radial velocity relative to the Scout. Moving in a straight line or circle isn't going to cut it. TL;DR: Play better, don't nerf the scout. Scouts have a hitbox which is too narrow This is actually where our greatest defense comes into play. A narrow (thin) hitbox allows us to better escape grenades, splash weapons, and high ROF guns which would normally obliterate our class given the thin shields and armor that we have. Scouts should at all times be played as hit-and-run or recon sniper, to do anything else is asking for trouble. If you increase our hitbox, you need to give us passive damage reduction relative to how fast we're moving... and that just brings up problems for everyone. Scouts strafe too quickly See above: I'm wearing paper and a party dress for my armor. Back up and engage me at a distance you can track. Scouts are unkillable because they jump around too much This depends on what type of jumping you're referring to. If you're talking about "jitter" then the problem is lag, and that's on you... not on CCP. If you're talking about actual jumping in-game: they can't alter trajectory in the air, just kill them. If you're too close, that's your fault. Hit detection makes scouts invulnerable This is again a problem of CCP and the engine and not in the scout suit. This complaint is irrelevant. There you go. Address them and we'll dance.
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.08.26 04:20:00 - [3] - Quote Abron Garr wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Abron Garr wrote: No suit should strafe faster than a suit can track. Isn't that kind of the idea behind speed tanking? In Eve sure. When they introduce auto-target with TEs and TCs using tracking scripts then I will happily concede your point. Since we have to manually target in Dust, as it should be in any respectable FPS, my aim should be my only limiting factor. By that logic I should be able to: jump in the air and spin 720 degrees rapidly. That's a limit factor to killing people who pop up randomly while I'm in the air whip a heavy machine gun around like a spinning top of doom use a forge gun like an exploding sledgehammer Let me fix your sentence: Since we have to manually target in Dust there should be skills or modules which allow me to spin faster because Dust is not a traditional FPS. You're still thinking inside the CoD / Battlefield box. Imagine what EVE would be like if you had the option of Joystick manual control integrated suddenly. The game has been (and will forever be) a point-and-click MMO... but now there's the "element of skill" in piloting a ship "traditionally" like a "respectable vehicle sim game." Also, you never addressed a single one of my points. Nice dodge.
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.08.27 01:21:00 - [4] - Quote Abron Garr wrote: Norbar Recturus wrote: Abron Garr wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Abron Garr wrote: No suit should strafe faster than a suit can track. Isn't that kind of the idea behind speed tanking? In Eve sure. When they introduce auto-target with TEs and TCs using tracking scripts then I will happily concede your point. Since we have to manually target in Dust, as it should be in any respectable FPS, my aim should be my only limiting factor. By that logic I should be able to: jump in the air and spin 720 degrees rapidly. That's a limit factor to killing people who pop up randomly while I'm in the air whip a heavy machine gun around like a spinning top of doom use a forge gun like an exploding sledgehammer Let me fix your sentence: Since we have to manually target in Dust there should be skills or modules which allow me to spin faster because Dust is not a traditional FPS. You're still thinking inside the CoD / Battlefield box. Imagine what EVE would be like if you had the option of Joystick manual control integrated suddenly. The game has been (and will forever be) a point-and-click MMO... but now there's the "element of skill" in piloting a ship "traditionally" like a "respectable vehicle sim game." Also, you never addressed a single one of my points. Nice dodge. I addressed every point in the quoted post. Perhaps you have me confused with another person. Don't put words in my mouth. I guess context isn't a word that holds much meaning with you. Your list is as trivial as your argument. So, because Heavies turn slower with an HMG (intended to limit the deadly potential of the HMG), Scouts should be able to step all over the role that Assault was intended to play? Scouts aren't supposed to be front line troops, their role is Assassination and backstabbing. And BTW, no one is saying that a scout shouldn't be the fastest strafing suit. My argument is their strafing speed should not be faster than an Assault can track. You either nerf their strafing speed or boost how fast Assaults track. Just as I as an Assault should not go head to head with a Heavy, a Scout should not go head to head with an Assault. Otherwise, why play anything but Scout? And yes, I do think highly of BF and COD. You would have to be a moron to deny that both games got a lot of things right. Both are successful franchises and it would be idiotic to completely ignore their success. TOR ignored previous successful MMO features and they're paying for it now. I don't want Dust to do the same. Maybe you did, maybe you didn't... I just read through the thread again to see where my arguments were quoted and (not to my surprise) I couldn't find a post where my defenses to the scout's narrow hitbox and rapid strafing speed were addressed. The point of the logic is that you said, "my ability to aim should be my only limiting factor," to which my response is, "No, in this game it shouldn't... and here's why." To which your response was then, "My argument is that {scouts} strafing speed should not be faster than an assault can track." Now the funny thing about this is that if you look up at the long post I had (with all those points you addressed) you'd see that I specifically brought this up along with the fact that to properly track a scout you need to use elliptical ground movement. I can track scouts in a heavy suit using an HMG, I don't see why this is a problem for you (or anyone else for that matter). You further your hole with this: "You either nerf their strafing speed or boost how fast Assaults track. Just as I as an Assault should not go head to head with a Heavy, a Scout should not go head to head with an Assault. Otherwise, why play anything but Scout?" Nothing should go head-to-head with a heavy except maybe another heavy... then again a heavy will not ever choose a "head-to-head" engagement because they're slow and easily flanked. Most heavy players will tell you they don't get to pick their engagements (at least not consistently without vehicular backup). Scouts currently engage assaults head on because of hit detection errors, not because they move around so fast it's impossible (as you suggest it is) to track a scout. As to "why play anything but a scout suit?" Well that's easy: Scouts are fragile and they die easily... maybe I want to wield the big gun that blows up tanks... maybe I want to specialize in CQC engagement (which scouts are not suited to)... maybe I want to provide battlefield support and lock-down points (something which a logistics operator is more suited to, even moreso than a scout with a codebreaker). To bring this up was just foolish to begin with. Now let's address this gem: "Scouts aren't supposed to be front line troops, their role is Assassination and backstabbing." Says who? I prefer the front-line recon role mixed with Scout-sniper frontline Deployment. I also have a backup tank-hunter build specifically for people who decide to bring out 1+MM ISK tanks. None of those fits the criteria you specified (except maybe the scout-sniper as an assassin. Maybe). Players define the roles in this game, not the developer. Now play with that and we'll talk later.