Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Shiro Mokuzan
220
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 10:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
STB Vermaak Doe wrote:Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Play as a guy with an assault rifle. Get to the same level of skills and spend the same amount on your equipment. See whether you're able to get a better kill:death ratio as a sniper or as an assault guy. Spoiler: You'll get far, far more kills as a sniper. Being a random infantry guy is really perilous. You have vehicles, other infantry guys, and of course, ******* snipers. Being a sniper is a piece of cake. Just find a good spot, shoot till you have no more bullets, and keep an eye out for enemy snipers. Sniping isn't even close to being a balanced method of play right now, and especially as someone sniping with a mouse you're really living the easy life compared to the people you're killing. This is true no matter what control you use. Sniper rifles should be more like marksman rifles 75 starting damage double ammo capacity 15 round magazine without the huge headshot multiplier
I agree with this. People have been confusing snipers with marksmen in video games for years. A sniper is someone who takes out unsuspecting high-value personnel from like a mile away while completely hidden. A combat marksman or sharpshooter is someone who supports their team by taking out targets with accurate fire while in battle. Most video games don't really have a sniper role per se.
I haven't used them much, but maybe a tactical assault rifle is closer to a marksman weapon? Doesn't it have longer range, more damage and fire semi-auto? |
Mr TamiyaCowboy
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
121
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 10:48:00 -
[32] - Quote
14/2 9/0 7/0 6/2 12/4 12/0
all taken with a snipers rifle ( either militia or charged only) all shots taken with a DS3
theres nowt wrong with sniping, mind you i do not use a mouse/keyboard as i need usb for my headset. as for tactical, i am able to switch between sniper and marksman fairly easy, just shifting my area of cover, |
lordjnus
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 11:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
to get more usb just use a hub. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 15:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
satcygunta wrote:lot's of stuff
Well, I wanted to respond to your post at-length but the forum thought I was using too many quotes, so I'll be more succinct. Probably better for everyone this way.
First, I'd like to say that I don't believe "realism" when dealing with clearly science fiction material is a valid reason for this to be any particular way. Comparing the railgun sniper rifle's shot to the magnetically-sealed plasma bullets of assault rifles when striking personal shielding or advanced body armour doesn't get you very far. Similarly, it strikes me as a bit presumptuous to say for sure how any sort of thing might happen to work. Maybe making these railguns as powerful as they are does produce a bright tracer. Maybe the advanced optics of Dust mercenary helmets draw in the tracer for them.
The point really doesn't change. As snipers, we're not really being active participants in the battle. That's our job, it's to send people to the back of the line at random. I don't think that is a very beneficial sort of gameplay to have exist in Dust. Now, do I want snipers gone entirely or something? Of course not. But, I see the key to snipers being effective as being their range, not their stealth. We are not very stealthy, after all. We probably get spotted quite a lot during a given match. But as long as we can kill at ranges well beyond what other weapons can, we're okay!
So, in short, I'd really like it if you could rewrite your opposition to my suggestions without referring to "realism", or the notion of how snipers "should be", or other points along those lines. Do you really believe snipers are fine from a purely gameplay perspective? Do you think their power is in-line with their ease-of-use? Do they make the game more enjoyable for people overall? |
Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 16:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
Most of the snipers are really bad tough..
One of my favorite past time hobbies is to pick up my militia sniper rifle and start popping out snipers from the opposing team. Tactical assault rifle is also great if you can get within the distance.
Seems to top quality snipers are rare breed these days as I consider myself as an average shot. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 16:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
Shiro Mokuzan wrote:STB Vermaak Doe wrote:Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Play as a guy with an assault rifle. Get to the same level of skills and spend the same amount on your equipment. See whether you're able to get a better kill:death ratio as a sniper or as an assault guy. Spoiler: You'll get far, far more kills as a sniper. Being a random infantry guy is really perilous. You have vehicles, other infantry guys, and of course, ******* snipers. Being a sniper is a piece of cake. Just find a good spot, shoot till you have no more bullets, and keep an eye out for enemy snipers. Sniping isn't even close to being a balanced method of play right now, and especially as someone sniping with a mouse you're really living the easy life compared to the people you're killing. This is true no matter what control you use. Sniper rifles should be more like marksman rifles 75 starting damage double ammo capacity 15 round magazine without the huge headshot multiplier I agree with this. People have been confusing snipers with marksmen in video games for years. A sniper is someone who takes out unsuspecting high-value personnel from like a mile away while completely hidden. A combat marksman or sharpshooter is someone who supports their team by taking out targets with accurate fire while in battle. Most video games don't really have a sniper role per se. I haven't used them much, but maybe a tactical assault rifle is closer to a marksman weapon? Doesn't it have longer range, more damage and fire semi-auto?
Yea but use the tac sniper instead for a bit more range |
Garrett Whetshaft
Hateful Munitions
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 21:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
I have been using a mouse with variable sensitivity in combination with my PS3 controller.
I do not feel that the sniper rifles are OP. They are supposed to be Lethal weapons at long range. They are exactly that. The map where a lot of snipers are used can be easily countered with good teamwork and the LAV (which is free).
If everybody just stands still in large groups then you are asking to get your head blown off and no amount of Nerfing will stop that. Plus most snipers would still get the kills using a controller.
Try moving around and don't run n straight lines haha |
satcygunta
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 23:44:00 -
[38] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Well, I wanted to respond to your post at-length but the forum thought I was using too many quotes, so I'll be more succinct. Probably better for everyone this way.
First, I'd like to say that I don't believe "realism" when dealing with clearly science fiction material is a valid reason for this to be any particular way.
...
So, in short, I'd really like it if you could rewrite your opposition to my suggestions without referring to "realism", or the notion of how snipers "should be", or other points along those lines. Do you really believe snipers are fine from a purely gameplay perspective? Do you think their power is in-line with their ease-of-use? Do they make the game more enjoyable for people overall?
Give me a moment here, because I have to argue at least some of my case from the standpoint of realism. It's part of the game to me. I don't play Dust because I just want to run around and shoot people. If I did, Call of Duty or Halo or Tremulous or any number of other FPSs would do just fine. I play Dust to immerse myself in another world. It has a story. Rather importantly to me, it attempts to be slightly harder sci-fi than average.
Part of the Eve universe is that there are mercenaries running around on the ground fighting over territory on behalf of the mega-enterprises that rule the galaxy. If you blithely remove snipers (or marksmen, thanks Shiro Mokuzan for the correction) from the picture, part of me goes, "Why has nobody been smart enough to put a marksman on that hill over there?" It breaks my suspension of disbelief, which to me is every bit as important to the experience as game balance.
I'm just as annoyed as anyone else when I die without warning or explanation and see my name to the right of some sniper rifle. But if that suddenly went away, a little voice in my head would start asking, "Why does this never happen?" It's part of the reality of the game. Same thing goes for the kind of nerfs being discussed. I'd wonder why nobody bothered to build a better rifle.
Now, it sounds from your questions that I may not have been clear about something. I do not think the game is currently balanced, and I acknowledge that it is too easy to be a sniper right now. I agree that the game would benefit from a decrease in the frequency of sudden, unexplained (except for kill announcements) deaths. The purpose of my post was to urge that care be taken when restoring balance.
I'd rather see a piece of equipment, requiring training to use and CPU and PG to install, that paints HUD-style indicators when a rail-gun is fired rather than some cheezy tracer effect visible to everybody. I'd like to see a counter-sniper class arise, rather than simply twisting game mechanics with some hand-wave excuse for those of us who give a damn about setting and background. And I was serious about aim-wave. It works in other games, and it could work here too. |
Cha0spacefish
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 00:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
its surprising to hear someone say snipers have it easy on mice. I use the Move controller to snipe and it feels unresponsive and crazy bulky. Precision shooting is a nightmare in this game i like being the sting that follows a group of assault rife, so precision is key to my moving sniping style.... in other games its a flick of the wrist and something dies a lot like pc sniping |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 18:17:00 -
[40] - Quote
Cha0spacefish wrote:its surprising to hear someone say snipers have it easy on mice.
Sniping is all about precision shooting. Mice are unparalleled in their precision. I predicted sniping would be a problem for the game with mice allowed even before KB+M came around.
satcygunta wrote:Speaking of special equipment, though, why not do that? Why not have a sensor that can be deployed which eventually locates snipers on the map? It can look for players that stay still for too long. Or how about a deployable shield that is weak or ineffective against close-range weapons but repels sniper fire great?
Don't nerf the sniper any more than is necessary to bring it in line with realism. Make a better counter to it, as a galactic supercorporation would!
Adding new equipment isn't a small deal. Fixes for stuff really should be as low-effort as possible.
Anyway, so, I get your appreciation for the Dust/EVE fiction. It has a level of internal consistency that is a cut above other settings. But the only reason that railgun sniper rifles do or don't behave a certain way is due to your own impression. Here's a video showing some railguns in EVE firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6UTaiBNQ2o
That is what I'd want to see in Dust. That, plus lower damage across the board for sniper rifles (with more ammo to compensate, as the STD guy said), and either travel time for the railgun shot (maybe not ideal) or permanent sway even when crouched. No new equipment or anything needed.
satcygunta wrote:I'm just as annoyed as anyone else when I die without warning or explanation and see my name to the right of some sniper rifle. But if that suddenly went away, a little voice in my head would start asking, "Why does this never happen?" It's part of the reality of the game. Same thing goes for the kind of nerfs being discussed. I'd wonder why nobody bothered to build a better rifle.
I don't think this would be the case. We're talking about force-fields surrounding futuristic body armor, itself surrounding super soldier clones. The kind of technology Dust is about is so far removed from what we have here, that I think it'd be very easy to rationalize sniper rifle shots that are not 5x as powerful as the plasma rounds the assault rifles fire. Would sniper rifle shots a mere 2.5x as strong as magnetically encased plasma bullets really dispel your suspension of disbelief?
But, of course, the bottom line is that gameplay trumps all. Sniper rifles are simply far too cost effective right now. Being a sniper is unparalleled in its ability to cause mayhem without endangering one's self. The talk about how railguns work in EVE is nice, but it kind of misses the point. Without really solid, fun gameplay -- something sniper rifles infringe upon right now in my opinion -- people won't stick around enough to care. |
|
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 05:46:00 -
[41] - Quote
I have to say I am genuinely pretty surprised that there hasn't been more of an outcry about sniping. Maybe once the hit detection is fixed, and you guys get to see what we're really capable of... |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 05:49:00 -
[42] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:I have to say I am genuinely pretty surprised that there hasn't been more of an outcry about sniping. Maybe once the hit detection is fixed, and you guys get to see what we're really capable of...
Just wait till the return of the forge gun range (aka the sniper's longer range counter) |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 08:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Forge guns wouldn't be any more of a counter to snipers than other snipers are currently. They're ridiclously good against infantry, forge guns are, but for long-distance precision shots against infantry a sniper in a concealed spot will always be better than a forge gun I'd say. |
Timothy Reaper
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
321
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 11:41:00 -
[44] - Quote
Most 'over-powered' weapons/vehicles problems I've heard of can easily be countered with teamwork. One squad that communicates can cause snipers to run for cover. This comes from someone who has sniped and counter sniped from afar and from the middle of firefights with his team. No lone wolf is a match for a coordinated pack. And, if the whole enemy team tries to snipe, there are plenty of ways to clear out idiots trying to hide in the hillsides.
My point is that the ways to make sniping unappealing to the majority are already there, it's up to the players to make use of them. |
Constable Jones
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 13:03:00 -
[45] - Quote
Quote:Well, it could be that only the Basic tier of sniper rifles might need toning down. As I said, I'm okay with someone using expensive gear fighting someone using militia stuff being able to flatten them in one hit. The stuff you buy should remain worth the cost. But Basic sniper rifles one-shotting Basic dropsuits with body shots? Not a fan of that.
Spent all of last week running scout suits sniping.
(and that's combat sniping you mugs)
And I was doing it in standard scout suits with no money issues, a standard shield extender and a standard armour plate. Know why?
'Cause it meant that I could pretty much always tank a body shot from other snipers. Sure if a guy has skill 5 and good mods and a fully charged shot I'd still go down. But when someone's put more than a million sp into their sniping I really don't see the issue.
And oh my god did I kill so many snipers. Most of the idiots stand ON TOP of things. ON TOP! |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 16:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
Timothy Reaper wrote:Most 'over-powered' weapons/vehicles problems I've heard of can easily be countered with teamwork.
I'd say not easily, no, but even if that were true, is that a good thing? Should a sniper require coordinated people to effectively dislodge from some crevice in some corner of the map? And what did snipers do for this luxury with? They fit a sniper rifle instead of an assault rifle. Good choice, young man!
This is really the crux of the issue. People can describe situations where a sniper might not be so effective, or ways a sniper can be encountered, or ways to mitigate the odds a sniper will kill you. Fine. Very compelling stuff. But what are we trading for the benefit of being so demanding for people to deal with? A tank driver, who places similar demands on his enemies should they want to kill him, needs to spend a great deal of money to get that privilege. And a lot of skill points. And his vehicle needs to place itself in harms way to be of any significant benefit to his team.
But being a sniper has no such demands. A brand new sniper is easily able to kill people across the map from some hard-to-reach location. The ISK demands are minimal -- just 3.5k ISK for a gun, really. And you do it all from ranges nobody save a few can even touch you at.
This, really, is the problem. We're getting all these massive perks -- firepower and safety, low ISK and SP demands -- for free. We're not laying anything on the line, unlike someone in a tank or whatever. There is no great loss even if someone, your coordinated team of enemies, manages to kill you. Few thousand ISK down, but how many people have you killed? How many more will you kill before another team is mustered to deal with you? We're paying dimes and we get to be gods. |
Exterminatus In Extremis
Black Thorne Militia
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 23:44:00 -
[47] - Quote
Rock/Paper/Scissors.
Counter-sniping isn't hard when you're of a mindset of how to do it. I've not experienced charge snipers yet, although am using KB/M so might invest and see how my sniping goes, but the militia sniper I do use better with KB/M than I do without. I can't recall how much a hub is, but KB/M you can pick up for probably like, -ú15 for both, which is cheaper than a DS3 : D or if you go wireless, it only needs the one cable for both units, so that might be a viable option.
You might argue that having to buy a KB/M to get an advantage is just another mode of P2W, but I've been killed plenty enough times to say you don't always win : P |
Timothy Reaper
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
321
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 07:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:I'd say not easily, no, but even if that were true, is that a good thing? If a sniper takes you down, tell your team's sniper(s) and they will look for him and take him out. Sounds easy enough to me.
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Should a sniper require coordinated people to effectively dislodge from some crevice in some corner of the map? Quite frankly, yes. Part of a sniper's job is to find a relatively safe place from which to report enemy movement and provide cover for his team. Those who just shoot at random targets attract attention and get themselves killed. And teamwork is an important part of success in Dust. When the game launches, people who refuse to be part of a team will have trouble finding work.
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:But what are we trading for the benefit of being so demanding for people to deal with? Mobility and field of view when lining up a shot. Armor. And if you to add armor you sacrifice even more mobility, making it diificult to move out of a dangerous situation.
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:This, really, is the problem. We're getting all these massive perks -- firepower and safety, low ISK and SP demands -- for free. We're not laying anything on the line, unlike someone in a tank or whatever. There is no great loss even if someone, your coordinated team of enemies, manages to kill you. Few thousand ISK down, but how many people have you killed? How many more will you kill before another team is mustered to deal with you? We're paying dimes and we get to be gods. Fair enough. But, instead of reducing a weapon's effectiveness, why not make the weapon more expensive? That's what they did with HAVs and dropships, and now you see a lot less of them on the battlefield. Then when incompetent snipers keep getting killed by competent players, they'll move on to the next fad. I would like to add that most of your argument hangs on the assumption that everyone finds sniping (especially with a mouse) to be as easy as you do. From my experience this does not seem to be the case. Granted, I don't know what equipment they use, but most of the snipers I encounter range from average to mediocre. The lack of a flood of expert marksmen indicates that a crappy sniper is a crappy sniper, regardless of the controls they use. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 10:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Timothy Reaper wrote:If a sniper takes you down, tell your team's sniper(s) and they will look for him and take him out. Sounds easy enough to me.
Easy to write, not as easy to do in practice. In reality, non-terrible snipers are very difficult to take down whether you're a sniper yourself or not, because the angles they're visible from are the angles they're actively scanning for targets at.
Quote:Quite frankly, yes. Part of a sniper's job is to find a relatively safe place from which to report enemy movement and provide cover for his team. Those who just shoot at random targets attract attention and get themselves killed. And teamwork is an important part of success in Dust. When the game launches, people who refuse to be part of a team will have trouble finding work.
So team work is important for the people who want to kill snipers, but snipers get to arbitrarily be exempt from this requirement? I don't understand why it should be so difficult to find and kill snipers. There isn't a trade-off there. It's a "just because" sort of situation. What're snipers trading for the ability to require teams to come after them and kill them? Well, they're lethal from across the map. They're easy as anything to get kills with. I... guess they're not so great against tanks? Is that what earns them the benefit of being really hard to kill and really lethal? It's a bit silly, I think, that for the same price you'd pay to get assault gear you get far more firepower and far more survivability.
Quote:Fair enough. But, instead of reducing a weapon's effectiveness, why not make the weapon more expensive? That's what they did with HAVs and dropships, and now you see a lot less of them on the battlefield. Then when incompetent snipers keep getting killed by competent players, they'll move on to the next fad. I would like to add that most of your argument hangs on the assumption that everyone finds sniping (especially with a mouse) to be as easy as you do. From my experience this does not seem to be the case. Granted, I don't know what equipment they use, but most of the snipers I encounter range from average to mediocre. The lack of a flood of expert marksmen indicates that a crappy sniper is a crappy sniper, regardless of the controls they use.
Making it more expensive is one approach, but I think it's a bit less than ideal as a one-shot solution. It's still very hard to die as a sniper, and there are kind of minimal gear requirements beyond the rifle, so you'd need to make the guns reeeeally expensive to make it a serious solution.
And once more people realize they can use a mouse to aim with there'll be no end to the snipers who find sniping incredibly simplistic. Precursor is a bit new right now, and I think some people are still using the DS3 to snipe with, so it's a bit of a mitigating factor for the time being. |
Garrett Whetshaft
Hateful Munitions
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 20:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
[quote=Constable Jones]
Quote:
And oh my god did I kill so many snipers. Most of the idiots stand ON TOP of things. ON TOP!
^.)
this.
Is why Snipers win at the moment. Rookies stand still. |
|
Stile451
Red Star.
76
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 05:30:00 -
[51] - Quote
I reran my numbers and found they were erroneous(either I screwed up then or I screwed up now). The drop over 1000m would be 0.78m using the game lore of 2500m/s(I used RL speed originally). Not too huge but the difference between a head shot and a body shot. The flight time would be 0.4s. I could get used to the bullet drop and minor lead time.
I still don't like tracers but I don't mind the idea of crouched sway(even on everyone) if it could be removed entirely using the proficiency skill. |
Encharrion
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
104
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 09:53:00 -
[52] - Quote
I have to point out here that the charge rifle does so much damage because of the unlikelihood of a second shot, due to the charge time required between shots. If you nerf it so that it takes 2 body shots to kill, then everyone will use the other snipers where it already takes 2 body shots and kills on a headshot. There isn't actually very much middle ground. I do think the charge sniper rifle does do a lot of damage, and reducing damage to the level of the Ishukone sniper rifle is probably appropriate, but I want advanced and prototype versions of the charge sniper if that happens.
I really dislike the idea of tracers. I'll tackle the game design part, then the realism part. First of all, the point of a sniper is to be hidden, and tracers make that entirely useless. No tracers allows scouts to have a reasonable role with a sniper rifle: Staying off the radar while supporting your team. Furthermore, without tracers it opens up additional design space for modules and equipment, such as a sniper-finding equipment someone suggested earlier. Things like that would then allow for more and varied roles on the battlefield, such as a dedicated counter-sniper loadout.
On to the realism part (which is certainly not as important, but shouldn't be completely disregarded). Now, you are pointing to eve guns for tracer effects. Those weapons are MUCH bigger than a railgun turret on a tank let alone an infantryman's sniper rifle. If we compare the tracer effect of the spaceship's railguns to the tank's railguns, we immediately notice a dramatically reduced tracer effect. Going from a tank's railgun to the sniper rifle, it is more than likely that the sniper rifle wouldn't have any tracer effect or at least very minimal tracer effect. This is all guesswork however, as the technology doesn't actually exist so I suppose it could perhaps have a tracer effect with this particular technology.
I had more important realism related things to say about why tracer effects on sniper wouldn't happen aside from technology, but I'm getting tired and having trouble explaining my ideas properly. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 14:23:00 -
[53] - Quote
There's a slight delay in the second shot, and yeah, that's intended to counter-balance the first shot being unparalleled in its power. Since writing this thread I've shifted my opinion such that I think the charge rifle simply being prototype would go a long way.
The point of a sniper is to kill people from afar. And it's better to think of us as being "infantry marksmen" rather than snipers, as we aren't there to kill some high value target or whatever, we're just there to murder the entire enemy army with long range, accuracte shots. I don't think the issue of snipers being able to go entire games without anyone taking a shot at them is less important than adding in equipment to find one ******* with a few-thousand-ISK rifle in a hill somewhere. That is really, really over-indulgent.
In EVE the railguns have a bright, blue-white tracer. http://i.imgur.com/OJwjO.jpg |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |