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Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.23 02:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
I believe sniping is currently too effective when you have a mouse to aim with. Before Precursor, I felt that the DS3 was enough of a hindrance to aiming at small targets that sniping was probably fine. With the kind of precision you can get from a mouse, however, sniping has become an incredibly easy way to get kills. So, here are some of the major issues to point out:
1) Charged sniper rifle shots instantly kill most people even with just body hits. Using a charge rifle with militia weapon mods on a militia suit, and Weaponry/Sniper Ops at 4, I one-shot every suit but heavies most of the time. This is not an enjoyable experience for people. Dying without any warning you're in danger, without any chance to retaliate, even at full health, is not something that should be common.
2) Sniping is very easy for the payoff. Again, this is more specific for mouse-based sniping. Currently, sniping is a matter of clicking somewhere without any real thought involved. See a bad guy on the other side of the map, put cursor over him, dead (or, shot hits and no damage is done -- thanks, hit detection.) It is very easy as a sniper to find a perch, where you're safe from most other enemies, with a very clear vantage of high traffic areas, and rack up kills without someone so much as taking a shot at you. Sniping places very little demand on the player for how powerful it is.
With that in mind, I'd propose a couple changes to sniping:
1) Add bullet travel time. Make bullets fast, but hitting very distant targets should be hard and require anticipating your target correctly. Either way, being on the other side of the map should make you relatively safe if you're moving. I'd also think that bullet drop being added might be a good idea as well. In general, it should be harder to hit enemy players with sniper rifles, especially if they're moving.
2) Add a very bright tracer effect to sniping. Shooting a sniper rifle should draw a big, bright line between you and your target. People should be able to see where the sniper fire is coming from, but to effectively counter you AND to know what area is dangerous to expose themselves to.
3) Reduce the overall power of sniper rifles. Being instantly killed sucks. It shouldn't happen unless a wounded person is hit, or someone with a very good rifle and weapon skills shoots someone with militia crap armor and poor skills. Sniping should be more about suppression and harassment than outright kills. It's possible that with sniping being harder and less safe to do it may be unnecessary to reduce sniper rifle damage by much, if at all, however. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.23 06:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Stile451 wrote:So you want to punish every sniper because the mouse is overpowered? That is not how to fix a problem with one peripheral that not everyone has.
I'm not sure what the alternative would be. You can't leave sniper rifles as powerful as they are for people who are using mice. I think sniping being over-nerfed is better than it being under-nerfed, as powerful sniping makes the game less fun for a lot of people, whereas weak sniping makes it less fun for just snipers.
Quote:1. The sniper rifle is a railgun(which is actually being developed - at least according to
It's a video game, the sniper rifle is whatever they want it to be.
Quote:2. It's a sniper rifle, not a laser tag gun. If every time you took a shot someone would come to find you nobody would play as a sniper(cheers and applauds from those who don't know how to counter a sniper, I'm sure).
Shooting your gun wouldn't summon a magical sniper-finding assassin, you'd simply make it easier for people to find you and kill you. Snipers would find themselves in greater danger overall, which is a positive change.
Quote:3. Once the marketplace opens up then we might want to look at this. We're very early in the current build and nobody has enough money to get out of the militia suits for more than a round or two. Basic suits are enough to not get one shotted by militia rifles and advanced suits by the charge and prototype rifles, but as I said nobody can afford them.
Well, it could be that only the Basic tier of sniper rifles might need toning down. As I said, I'm okay with someone using expensive gear fighting someone using militia stuff being able to flatten them in one hit. The stuff you buy should remain worth the cost. But Basic sniper rifles one-shotting Basic dropsuits with body shots? Not a fan of that.
Grille Tuna wrote:actually the sniper physics are fine IMO. sniper should be able to 1 shot kill if they can line up a head shot 2 to the body, otherwise why have a sniper rifle its virtually useless in close quarters.
You'd use a sniper rifle because you can hit people at ranges they can hit you back from. And I'm okay with it taking two shots to kill people. My issue is that, with a charged sniper rifle, it takes one shot on basically everyone aside from people wearing heavy suits. One shot means you never even knew you were being attacked before you died, usually. It doesn't give you a chance to even react. Pretty lame gameplay. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.23 08:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Stile451 wrote:Seeing as it's a control issue then maybe do something to the mouse controls such as adding a permanent sway when a mouse is used.
To be honest I've wondered if there shouldn't be some degree of permanent sway, if only because Sniper Rifle Proficiency is kind of a weird skill otherwise. But, yeah, I suppose if they're able to somehow manage it having sway or more sway than normal when using a mouse might be okay as an alternative to bullet drop.
And I think that highly visible tracers should be in for everyone using sniper rifles, as well. Sniping is far too safe.
Quote:I honestly don't know why I'm discussing this one as currently they never even look up to find your arrow, it's only other snipers that are actively looking for you and for that we also have the muzzle flash in addition to the arrows.
It's more for the benefit of the enemy team as a whole. The person your'e shooting will hear the shot anyway and will bee-line for the nearest cover. He probably won't see the shot unless you shoot in front of him. But, other people on his team will, and that will make life more dangerous for the sniper. Which is good. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.23 15:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Le-gen Dairy wrote:I currently use both mouse and DS3 when playing and I can tell you that currently the mouse isn't as overpowered as you think it is. Sure I have an easier time sniping since it's just point and click, however having to track a moving target is not simple due to the hardcap that is in place. Sometimes I have to switch to DS3 for those scouts You're asking for there to be permanent sway when using a mouse; unfortunately that is not possible due to the fact that many players such as myself constantly switch back and forth between KB/M and DS3. If permanent sway were introduced, it'd have to be for everyone and then by using sniper rifle proficiency does it go away. I want a balanced game just as much as everyone else and I am by no means trying to defend KB/M as I'm more of a DS3 player myself; however, I just don't see how some of these suggestions of fixing Mouse users would work.
Well, I was suggesting bullet drop, bullet travel time, and the other guy suggested adding permanent sway. I'm not technically proficient enough to say whether that's a good idea in a practical sense, but I agree with the theory behind it.
As for whether the mouse is as good as I say, well, that I guess is pretty subjective. I find myself able to get kills so easily by sniping with a mouse that I can't imagine the experience of other players is so different. Hopefully we'd all agree that it is a very easy implementation of sniping, is very powerful despite that ease of use, and that probably isn't a good sort of thing to let persist in the game.
Khun-Al wrote:Change the DS3 sensitivity to a max and you can snipe very well.
Yes, I was using the DS3 prior to Precursor. I'm not one for console FPS games usually, so I don't think I'm very good with the DS3 (a 2.00 KD before the wipe) but I am absolutely slaughtering people using a mouse. It's hard for me to say what the average player's opinion might be, but I've elucidated mine in the OP. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.24 00:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kage Roth wrote:Personally I think the best way to counter an over indulgence in sniping is through map construction. Yes you can nerf them so no one uses them, but that doesn't make for a healthy diversity in game play. Better to make controlled sniping an idea to keep in the back of the map makers mind. That being said, the charges sniper rifle really does favor the KBM user a little too strongly imo. I'd like to see snipers have to focus on head shots for one shot kills unless they have a heavy SP investment in sniping.
The maps we have run the gamut. Some of the skirmish maps are very heavily close quarters and your power as a sniper is limited. Some of the areas of the skirmish map are similarly filled with obstacles. The problem is that unless you want to make the game a quake level, you're always going to have open areas people need to cross to attack another objective, and those are the areas where they'll die.
And the goal is not to make it so that "no one uses them", it's simply to bring sniping in-line with how easy and safe it is to use. That's best done through a mix of making sniping harder to do, and making it less safe to do.
carl von oppenheimer wrote:Sniper are just fine as they are, it's already hard enough to swing that dot to get proper aim and OHK kills don't happen unless it's a militia suit you're shooting. In last build even proto scouts tanked my ishukone rifle with best dmg mods and with militia you need 2-3 hits anyway unless you get a head shot.
You'll hopefully note I'm specifically referring to using a mouse to snipe. DS3 I'm not sure about as I am not very good at console controllers, but with the mouse it is absolutely not difficult to kill people and isn't anything like being "just fine".
The one-shot-kill stuff, as I mentioned, is primarily a charge rifle issue. Very few non-heavies can survive a charged shot. I think the game moving toward a system of sniping where only significant gear/skill disparities or headshots produce one-hit-kill sniping would be a good way to handle it. Right now it's pretty well anyone not in a heavy suit that goes down in one hit to a charged rifle. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.24 18:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Norbar Recturus wrote:Quote:2) Add a very bright tracer effect to sniping. Shooting a sniper rifle should draw a big, bright line between you and your target. People should be able to see where the sniper fire is coming from, but to effectively counter you AND to know what area is dangerous to expose themselves to. This is probably one of the worst suggestions I've heard from the perspective of a sniper. The point is to be somewhat covert. Having chevrons that blaze over our heads when a target looks sideways at us is enough of a handicap. Thanks.
No, I don't think it is enough of a handicap, because currently we only die if we're very reckless or if we're unlucky enough to have someone flying around in a dropship with nobody trying to shoot them down. Making it very clear where the sniper fire is coming from will let people counter-attack much better. It would make snipers more reliant on their team for protection, because they couldn't be essentially invisible for most if not all of the match.
As for whether the point of sniping is to be somewhat covert, I'm not sure why that is necessarily the case. To me, the point is to kill people who are far away. Whether I'm known to the enemy or not doesn't diminish my role, it simply adds an extra bit of risk to the occupation.
But, yeah, what I'm suggesting are outright "nerfs" to make snipers less powerful, so I understand if you're not quite down with it as another sniper. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.25 08:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Play as a guy with an assault rifle. Get to the same level of skills and spend the same amount on your equipment. See whether you're able to get a better kill:death ratio as a sniper or as an assault guy. Spoiler: You'll get far, far more kills as a sniper. Being a random infantry guy is really perilous. You have vehicles, other infantry guys, and of course, ******* snipers. Being a sniper is a piece of cake. Just find a good spot, shoot till you have no more bullets, and keep an eye out for enemy snipers. Sniping isn't even close to being a balanced method of play right now, and especially as someone sniping with a mouse you're really living the easy life compared to the people you're killing. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.25 08:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm in favour of reduced damage and actually making it harder to aim via bullet drop, plus the whole tracer thing. Even if you reduce damage it'd still be very easy and very safe to be a sniper. Wouldn't get as many kills, but you'd still get quite a few for basically no risk. I don't think reduced damage in itself goes far enough. Although, who knows, maybe it would. Something you'd have to play through in increments I suspect. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.25 15:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
satcygunta wrote:lot's of stuff
Well, I wanted to respond to your post at-length but the forum thought I was using too many quotes, so I'll be more succinct. Probably better for everyone this way.
First, I'd like to say that I don't believe "realism" when dealing with clearly science fiction material is a valid reason for this to be any particular way. Comparing the railgun sniper rifle's shot to the magnetically-sealed plasma bullets of assault rifles when striking personal shielding or advanced body armour doesn't get you very far. Similarly, it strikes me as a bit presumptuous to say for sure how any sort of thing might happen to work. Maybe making these railguns as powerful as they are does produce a bright tracer. Maybe the advanced optics of Dust mercenary helmets draw in the tracer for them.
The point really doesn't change. As snipers, we're not really being active participants in the battle. That's our job, it's to send people to the back of the line at random. I don't think that is a very beneficial sort of gameplay to have exist in Dust. Now, do I want snipers gone entirely or something? Of course not. But, I see the key to snipers being effective as being their range, not their stealth. We are not very stealthy, after all. We probably get spotted quite a lot during a given match. But as long as we can kill at ranges well beyond what other weapons can, we're okay!
So, in short, I'd really like it if you could rewrite your opposition to my suggestions without referring to "realism", or the notion of how snipers "should be", or other points along those lines. Do you really believe snipers are fine from a purely gameplay perspective? Do you think their power is in-line with their ease-of-use? Do they make the game more enjoyable for people overall? |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.26 18:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cha0spacefish wrote:its surprising to hear someone say snipers have it easy on mice.
Sniping is all about precision shooting. Mice are unparalleled in their precision. I predicted sniping would be a problem for the game with mice allowed even before KB+M came around.
satcygunta wrote:Speaking of special equipment, though, why not do that? Why not have a sensor that can be deployed which eventually locates snipers on the map? It can look for players that stay still for too long. Or how about a deployable shield that is weak or ineffective against close-range weapons but repels sniper fire great?
Don't nerf the sniper any more than is necessary to bring it in line with realism. Make a better counter to it, as a galactic supercorporation would!
Adding new equipment isn't a small deal. Fixes for stuff really should be as low-effort as possible.
Anyway, so, I get your appreciation for the Dust/EVE fiction. It has a level of internal consistency that is a cut above other settings. But the only reason that railgun sniper rifles do or don't behave a certain way is due to your own impression. Here's a video showing some railguns in EVE firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6UTaiBNQ2o
That is what I'd want to see in Dust. That, plus lower damage across the board for sniper rifles (with more ammo to compensate, as the STD guy said), and either travel time for the railgun shot (maybe not ideal) or permanent sway even when crouched. No new equipment or anything needed.
satcygunta wrote:I'm just as annoyed as anyone else when I die without warning or explanation and see my name to the right of some sniper rifle. But if that suddenly went away, a little voice in my head would start asking, "Why does this never happen?" It's part of the reality of the game. Same thing goes for the kind of nerfs being discussed. I'd wonder why nobody bothered to build a better rifle.
I don't think this would be the case. We're talking about force-fields surrounding futuristic body armor, itself surrounding super soldier clones. The kind of technology Dust is about is so far removed from what we have here, that I think it'd be very easy to rationalize sniper rifle shots that are not 5x as powerful as the plasma rounds the assault rifles fire. Would sniper rifle shots a mere 2.5x as strong as magnetically encased plasma bullets really dispel your suspension of disbelief?
But, of course, the bottom line is that gameplay trumps all. Sniper rifles are simply far too cost effective right now. Being a sniper is unparalleled in its ability to cause mayhem without endangering one's self. The talk about how railguns work in EVE is nice, but it kind of misses the point. Without really solid, fun gameplay -- something sniper rifles infringe upon right now in my opinion -- people won't stick around enough to care. |
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Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.27 05:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
I have to say I am genuinely pretty surprised that there hasn't been more of an outcry about sniping. Maybe once the hit detection is fixed, and you guys get to see what we're really capable of... |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.27 08:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Forge guns wouldn't be any more of a counter to snipers than other snipers are currently. They're ridiclously good against infantry, forge guns are, but for long-distance precision shots against infantry a sniper in a concealed spot will always be better than a forge gun I'd say. |
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Posted - 2012.08.27 16:06:00 -
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Timothy Reaper wrote:Most 'over-powered' weapons/vehicles problems I've heard of can easily be countered with teamwork.
I'd say not easily, no, but even if that were true, is that a good thing? Should a sniper require coordinated people to effectively dislodge from some crevice in some corner of the map? And what did snipers do for this luxury with? They fit a sniper rifle instead of an assault rifle. Good choice, young man!
This is really the crux of the issue. People can describe situations where a sniper might not be so effective, or ways a sniper can be encountered, or ways to mitigate the odds a sniper will kill you. Fine. Very compelling stuff. But what are we trading for the benefit of being so demanding for people to deal with? A tank driver, who places similar demands on his enemies should they want to kill him, needs to spend a great deal of money to get that privilege. And a lot of skill points. And his vehicle needs to place itself in harms way to be of any significant benefit to his team.
But being a sniper has no such demands. A brand new sniper is easily able to kill people across the map from some hard-to-reach location. The ISK demands are minimal -- just 3.5k ISK for a gun, really. And you do it all from ranges nobody save a few can even touch you at.
This, really, is the problem. We're getting all these massive perks -- firepower and safety, low ISK and SP demands -- for free. We're not laying anything on the line, unlike someone in a tank or whatever. There is no great loss even if someone, your coordinated team of enemies, manages to kill you. Few thousand ISK down, but how many people have you killed? How many more will you kill before another team is mustered to deal with you? We're paying dimes and we get to be gods. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.08.28 10:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Timothy Reaper wrote:If a sniper takes you down, tell your team's sniper(s) and they will look for him and take him out. Sounds easy enough to me.
Easy to write, not as easy to do in practice. In reality, non-terrible snipers are very difficult to take down whether you're a sniper yourself or not, because the angles they're visible from are the angles they're actively scanning for targets at.
Quote:Quite frankly, yes. Part of a sniper's job is to find a relatively safe place from which to report enemy movement and provide cover for his team. Those who just shoot at random targets attract attention and get themselves killed. And teamwork is an important part of success in Dust. When the game launches, people who refuse to be part of a team will have trouble finding work.
So team work is important for the people who want to kill snipers, but snipers get to arbitrarily be exempt from this requirement? I don't understand why it should be so difficult to find and kill snipers. There isn't a trade-off there. It's a "just because" sort of situation. What're snipers trading for the ability to require teams to come after them and kill them? Well, they're lethal from across the map. They're easy as anything to get kills with. I... guess they're not so great against tanks? Is that what earns them the benefit of being really hard to kill and really lethal? It's a bit silly, I think, that for the same price you'd pay to get assault gear you get far more firepower and far more survivability.
Quote:Fair enough. But, instead of reducing a weapon's effectiveness, why not make the weapon more expensive? That's what they did with HAVs and dropships, and now you see a lot less of them on the battlefield. Then when incompetent snipers keep getting killed by competent players, they'll move on to the next fad. I would like to add that most of your argument hangs on the assumption that everyone finds sniping (especially with a mouse) to be as easy as you do. From my experience this does not seem to be the case. Granted, I don't know what equipment they use, but most of the snipers I encounter range from average to mediocre. The lack of a flood of expert marksmen indicates that a crappy sniper is a crappy sniper, regardless of the controls they use.
Making it more expensive is one approach, but I think it's a bit less than ideal as a one-shot solution. It's still very hard to die as a sniper, and there are kind of minimal gear requirements beyond the rifle, so you'd need to make the guns reeeeally expensive to make it a serious solution.
And once more people realize they can use a mouse to aim with there'll be no end to the snipers who find sniping incredibly simplistic. Precursor is a bit new right now, and I think some people are still using the DS3 to snipe with, so it's a bit of a mitigating factor for the time being. |
Fivetimes Infinity
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Posted - 2012.09.05 14:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
There's a slight delay in the second shot, and yeah, that's intended to counter-balance the first shot being unparalleled in its power. Since writing this thread I've shifted my opinion such that I think the charge rifle simply being prototype would go a long way.
The point of a sniper is to kill people from afar. And it's better to think of us as being "infantry marksmen" rather than snipers, as we aren't there to kill some high value target or whatever, we're just there to murder the entire enemy army with long range, accuracte shots. I don't think the issue of snipers being able to go entire games without anyone taking a shot at them is less important than adding in equipment to find one ******* with a few-thousand-ISK rifle in a hill somewhere. That is really, really over-indulgent.
In EVE the railguns have a bright, blue-white tracer. http://i.imgur.com/OJwjO.jpg |
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