DUST Search - Rise of the power of the Heavy Machine Gun

Warrior of MAG wrote:

The Heavy Machine gun is suppose to be deadly and something players should fear once in contact with. The Keyboard and Mouse support have made the heavies the most vulnerable yet. Nobody fears the gun like they should. MAG had a similar faith back in the days... SVER (one of the three factions) was dominiating MAG. In MAG, the weapons were only restricted into each faction. So a non-SVER player couldn't use a SVER weapon by default. Each faction use to have their own home map, which they only defend. There were a lot of players just complaining and complaining about how SVER was overpowered, SVER had better maps, SVER had better equipments and so on. In the end, Zipper made the worst decision possible and decided to decrease the firepower of all the weapons by a great gap. What happened after this? Everyone started to leave. Zipper nerfed the guns, but they never gave the firepower back? Probably, even the players who asked for the nerf left...

Of course, Dust 514 is only a beta and CCP have never developed a first person shooter before, so there is nobody to blame. People who will kill it for us will probably look for a new weapon to say "this is overpowered" and "that is overpowered". Wait a minute... the breach assualt rifles have also decreased in damage! What next?? I'm saying if CCP wants to attract MAG SVER players or former SVER players, I advised bring the firepower back. Teammwork will be required to take down heavies and that is what Dust 514 stands for.

For the Heavy Machine gun, I have a different solution, other than decreasing its' damage;

Decrease the speed of the heavy machine gun
Decrease the time it takes for the weapon to start overheating
Increase the time it takes for the weapon to cool down after the overheat.
Increase the reload time.
Increase the price of the heavy machine gun.
Increase the amount of skill points relating to the heavy machine.
Decrease the amount of damage increase bonus from the skills sheet.
Increase the PG and CPU of the heavy machine gun and its' damage bonuses from store.

There are a lot more suggestions!

Everyone makes a thread to "nerf this and nerf that", but nobody ever asks "to not nerf that or don't nerf that", but not me. This is my suggestion to "nerf" the heavy machine gun without decreasing its' damage. Please take my notes into consideration, thank you :)

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Warrior of MAG Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2012.08.18 17:45:00 - [1] - Quote The Heavy Machine gun is suppose to be deadly and something players should fear once in contact with. The Keyboard and Mouse support have made the heavies the most vulnerable yet. Nobody fears the gun like they should. MAG had a similar faith back in the days... SVER (one of the three factions) was dominiating MAG. In MAG, the weapons were only restricted into each faction. So a non-SVER player couldn't use a SVER weapon by default. Each faction use to have their own home map, which they only defend. There were a lot of players just complaining and complaining about how SVER was overpowered, SVER had better maps, SVER had better equipments and so on. In the end, Zipper made the worst decision possible and decided to decrease the firepower of all the weapons by a great gap. What happened after this? Everyone started to leave. Zipper nerfed the guns, but they never gave the firepower back? Probably, even the players who asked for the nerf left... Of course, Dust 514 is only a beta and CCP have never developed a first person shooter before, so there is nobody to blame. People who will kill it for us will probably look for a new weapon to say "this is overpowered" and "that is overpowered". Wait a minute... the breach assualt rifles have also decreased in damage! What next?? I'm saying if CCP wants to attract MAG SVER players or former SVER players, I advised bring the firepower back. Teammwork will be required to take down heavies and that is what Dust 514 stands for. For the Heavy Machine gun, I have a different solution, other than decreasing its' damage; Decrease the speed of the heavy machine gun Decrease the time it takes for the weapon to start overheating Increase the time it takes for the weapon to cool down after the overheat. Increase the reload time. Increase the price of the heavy machine gun. Increase the amount of skill points relating to the heavy machine. Decrease the amount of damage increase bonus from the skills sheet. Increase the PG and CPU of the heavy machine gun and its' damage bonuses from store. There are a lot more suggestions! Everyone makes a thread to "nerf this and nerf that", but nobody ever asks "to not nerf that or don't nerf that", but not me. This is my suggestion to "nerf" the heavy machine gun without decreasing its' damage. Please take my notes into consideration, thank you :)
Zhar Ptitsaa Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2012.08.18 19:27:00 - [2] - Quote +1
Galactus VI Algintal Core Gallente Federation 43	Posted - 2012.08.18 20:36:00 - [3] - Quote +1 ^All is said^
Warrior of MAG Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2012.08.19 10:34:00 - [4] - Quote Thanks for the support!
Viice-Raye Vinarii Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1	Posted - 2012.08.20 01:50:00 - [5] - Quote +1 I totally agree the heavy machine should be deadly, besides being a heavy there's a speed restriction already right ? I do like how in MAG each faction had there own weapons, it made each faction stand out and play different from each other, the whole nerfed thing came from feeble players tired of getting owned , its just stupid and developers should just look the other way.
Icy Tiger 496	Posted - 2012.08.20 02:12:00 - [6] - Quote Out of curiosity, did you play the build before the E3 build? If yes, the build had crazy awesome Heavy suits. The HMG was DEADLY, when you saw a Heavy and werent one, you literally said "oh s***" and ran. It was OP, but nerfed a little too much. Try using the higer end HMGs or the variants, they work better than regular ones.
Bennybuns WarRavens 5	Posted - 2012.08.20 05:11:00 - [7] - Quote I have been raping with the heavy machine gun. last game was 12 - 1...
Warrior of MAG Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:05:00 - [8] - Quote Icy Tiger wrote: Out of curiosity, did you play the build before the E3 build? If yes, the build had crazy awesome Heavy suits. The HMG was DEADLY, when you saw a Heavy and werent one, you literally said "oh s***" and ran. It was OP, but nerfed a little too much. Try using the higer end HMGs or the variants, they work better than regular ones. Yeah, I use to play with the first build and loved the heavy machine gun. That's why I gave some points to "nerf" the minigun without decreasing the damage, otherwise it will become a cluster fear :/
Buzzwords Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 416	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:37:00 - [9] - Quote i've used the aurum prototype equivelant hmg in this build, and it's still god awefull. i STILL perform better with a militia AR in a militia assault or militia logi suit, than i did with a prototype aurum HMG in a type-I heavy suit. it does overheat slower, but they seem to have reduced the rate at which it gains accuracy, and capped how much accuracy it can gain via the spin-up effect to be much lower. increasing the effective range means nothing when the accuracy is ****. who cares how far the bullet travels when you are all but forced to miss anyway? HMG has been useless since the E3 build. personally i believe the HMG was fine pre-E3. it did exactly one thing: kill idiots who charged directly at you. it did it incredibly well. it was still BAD at everything else... anybody complaining about it needs to think it through for a moment. what if you ran away? the heavy cannot chase you. he is too slow. he cannot hit you at range because his gun is inaccurate. even in the pre-E3 build when the HMG COULD become accurate eventually, it still afforded you plenty of time to seek cover. not to mention he's burned through 1/3rd of his magazine and is halfway to overheating by then... the fact of the matter now is the gun is even LESS accurate, and does terrible damage when you factor in the huge % of "forced misses" it's just not GOOD at anything. even at knife fight range you're better off with a shotgun. just because they improved the weapons "effective range" doesn't make it EFFECTIVE at RANGE.
Kovak Therim ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2012.08.20 19:33:00 - [10] - Quote I love the animation and sound the HMG makes and really wanted to use it, but I feel like that's all it is, noise. All bark, no bite. I can't kill up close with it, and will still get owned by a assault rifle at longer ranges. All-around useless weapon. I'll probably join the rest of the heavy users and use an AR with an SMG backup.

Darkz azurr Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 105	Posted - 2012.08.20 21:13:00 - [11] - Quote i just started using the hmg, me in a heavy suit and hmg, my enemy, assault suit and ar, 4 meters apart, he did more dmg >.> and i died.
Warrior of MAG Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2012.08.21 11:39:00 - [12] - Quote Darkz azurr wrote: i just started using the hmg, me in a heavy suit and hmg, my enemy, assault suit and ar, 4 meters apart, he did more dmg >.> and i died. Yeah, that's a typical heavy machine gunner. Not only that, but I play on the maximum sensitvety and has anybody else noticed how slow you turn? I remember I was about to kill one particular individual who was coming towards me in a corner, which is a good place for you to shoot from as a heavy. He justs runs to the left of me and the sensetivety can't keep up... Now imagine playing against the Keyboard and Mouse. It's slower than slow can get.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.08.21 11:48:00 - [13] - Quote Darkz azurr wrote: i just started using the hmg, me in a heavy suit and hmg, my enemy, assault suit and ar, 4 meters apart, he did more dmg >.> and i died. sorry to break this to u but at that range ur just bad......no offense but 4m apart and u have a ** load of armor with an insane rof minigun that shreds ppl apart in an instant in cqc and u......LOST?! dafuq Warrior of MAG wrote: Darkz azurr wrote:** i just started using the hmg, me in a heavy suit and hmg, my enemy, assault suit and ar, 4 meters apart, he did more dmg >.> and i died. Yeah, that's a typical heavy machine gunner. Not only that, but I play on the maximum sensitvety and has anybody else noticed how slow you turn? I remember I was about to kill one particular individual who was coming towards me in a corner, which is a good place for you to shoot from as a heavy. He justs runs to the left of me and the sensetivety can't keep up... Now imagine playing against the Keyboard and Mouse. It's slower than slow can get. Heavies have a slow turn speed.....its called balance u have a minigun.....with insane rof and a ton of armor, flanking is ur weakness as a heavy didnt the HMG get buffed this build? the HMG is fine imho the hit detection isnt ive been insta killed when i turn a corner to meet a heavy a couple times
Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming 154	Posted - 2012.08.21 12:23:00 - [14] - Quote I would consider myself a 'very good' heavy player. The HMG and Heavy are very good. People honestly need to harden the **** up and get some skill when it comes to playing a class based game. If you're dying 4m apart form an assault with an AR sorry but it's not the suit, it's you. Also turn speed is a very good trade off IMO for Armor and Shielding (not run speed tho ). How many times do you find that a fast turn speed is EXTREMELY advantageous. You need to have people on your six (sorry pub peeps) to get by anywhere. If you expect to just walk in to an objective that the enemy control as a heavy and expect to make it alive because of all you 'tankzzz and armorz' you're doing it wrong.
Warrior of MAG Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2012.08.21 16:01:00 - [15] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Darkz azurr wrote: i just started using the hmg, me in a heavy suit and hmg, my enemy, assault suit and ar, 4 meters apart, he did more dmg >.> and i died. sorry to break this to u but at that range ur just bad......no offense but 4m apart and u have a **** load of armor with an insane rof minigun that shreds ppl apart in an instant in cqc and u......LOST?! dafuq [quote=Warrior of MAG] Heavies have a slow turn speed.....its called balance u have a minigun.....with insane rof and a ton of armor, flanking is ur weakness as a heavy didnt the HMG get buffed this build? the HMG is fine imho the hit detection isnt ive been insta killed when i turn a corner to meet a heavy a couple times Nope, the heavy machine gun did not get buffed and even if it did, there is hardly any difference. The heavy machine gun is something weaker players should fear off, not just go in front of them just circle around him to death. It was fine on the pre-E3 build, people used teammwork when heavies had a good turning sensitivity and a great deal of damage. If he was right next to you, you are suppose to run and do what the heavies are most vulnerable of; lure them to where your teammates are and attack him from that far range. That is tactic and teammwork and not a slow spinningness to death.
OMEN STAR 19	Posted - 2012.08.21 16:04:00 - [16] - Quote +1 heavy dropsuit need something to make it more appealing maybe shield/armor resistance modules
Darky SI 232	Posted - 2012.08.21 16:13:00 - [17] - Quote I said it before and i will say it again, HMG needs a DPS buff the cost-to-performance is totally unbalanced . e.g. proto HMG cost around 110k and the DPS is 19 only! For the dropsuit its so damn slow there is no way to consider decreasing the speed as an option to balance it, i think a states buff may work
HowDidThatTaste Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2242	Posted - 2012.08.21 16:21:00 - [18] - Quote The turning speed negates the suits advantage which is supposed to be its armor. A guy can put a whole clip in us as we turn around 180 degrees. I'm sure the thought was balance but this negates the whole reason to have a heavy suit. Increase turn speed! I shouldn't be owned by somebody just because he is behind me and I don't get a chance to even see who is shooting me before I'm dead.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.08.21 16:28:00 - [19] - Quote lol heavies should have slow turning speed the ppl saying it should take teamwork to take down a heavy it should also take teamwork to keep 1 up i can 1v1 a heavy easy, 90% of the heavies play stupid no logis next to u? and ur running in the open? ur dead imma drop ur non existent shields and chip away at ur armor since my DPS > passive armor reps Heavies are OP when u have a logi next to u, i was reppin my buddy heavy suit and having him tank a **** load of shots increasing turn speed negates the weakness of the heavy which is being flanked , heavies should NOT be by themselves stick in a grp like u should and turn speed wont matter cuz ppl will have ur flanks ppl only watching the dmg of each HMG bullet being 19? watch the ROF and ur clip size then calculate ur dmg per clip compared to someone using an AR Fix hit detection before any changes to guns cuz the HMG imho is fine
fred orpaul Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 213	Posted - 2012.08.21 16:54:00 - [20] - Quote Agreed heavys are so slow their only advantage is ridiculous power. I should not be able to repeatedly **** heavys as a scout(I play as a scout not as a heavy. people worry too much about the gun game which leads to boring repetitive game play based on leveling as fast as possible to get an edge instead of creative tactics. You shouldn't be able to out gun game a heavy. You should have to out number, out wit, or out maneuver them, or the class is useless.

Sylwester Dziewiecki Doomheim 83	Posted - 2012.08.21 17:12:00 - [21] - Quote Warrior of MAG wrote: The Heavy Machine gun is suppose to be deadly and something players should fear once in contact with. The Keyboard and Mouse support have made the heavies the most vulnerable yet. Nobody fears the gun like they should. MAG had a similar faith back in the days... SVER (one of the three factions) was dominiating MAG. In MAG, the weapons were only restricted into each faction. So a non-SVER player couldn't use a SVER weapon by default. Each faction use to have their own home map, which they only defend. There were a lot of players just complaining and complaining about how SVER was overpowered, SVER had better maps, SVER had better equipments and so on. In the end, Zipper made the worst decision possible and decided to decrease the firepower of all the weapons by a great gap. What happened after this? Everyone started to leave. Zipper nerfed the guns, but they never gave the firepower back? Probably, even the players who asked for the nerf left... Of course, Dust 514 is only a beta and CCP have never developed a first person shooter before, so there is nobody to blame. People who will kill it for us will probably look for a new weapon to say "this is overpowered" and "that is overpowered". Wait a minute... the breach assualt rifles have also decreased in damage! What next?? I'm saying if CCP wants to attract MAG SVER players or former SVER players, I advised bring the firepower back. Teammwork will be required to take down heavies and that is what Dust 514 stands for. For the Heavy Machine gun, I have a different solution, other than decreasing its' damage; Decrease the speed of the heavy machine gun Decrease the time it takes for the weapon to start overheating Increase the time it takes for the weapon to cool down after the overheat. Increase the reload time. Increase the price of the heavy machine gun. Increase the amount of skill points relating to the heavy machine. Decrease the amount of damage increase bonus from the skills sheet. Increase the PG and CPU of the heavy machine gun and its' damage bonuses from store. There are a lot more suggestions! Everyone makes a thread to "nerf this and nerf that", but nobody ever asks "to not nerf that or don't nerf that", but not me. This is my suggestion to "nerf" the heavy machine gun without decreasing its' damage. Please take my notes into consideration, thank you :) Summary: I wrote this topick because of 'likes'. Two days after release of pre-precursor build with no experience playing in the new version. I wrote a nice list. Some points can make someone happy. Other points indicate that I did not invent them at the same time and they contradict each other. PS "(...)CCP have never developed a first person shooter before(...)" This is a fact, but they employs people that did(check the requirements for each job they offer). CCP know what to do, I say this from the perspective of the person who looks at them for a few years. If you really want to help, make a list of which solves the problem (it happens to be the most important - I don't see problem in you topick because HMG are deadly, especially these new versions) in a way that it is not delayed it in time.
Darky SI 232	Posted - 2012.08.21 21:31:00 - [22] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: ppl only watching the dmg of each HMG bullet being 19? watch the ROF and ur clip size then calculate ur dmg per clip compared to someone using an AR HMG is different than AR, we hip fire and not all bullet register hits especially at the beginning moving targets cause even more loss in bullets registration on the other hand AR is just point and shot you have better control over your gun so the amount of bullets we have doesn't much matter when half of the bullets scatter everywhere.
Warrior of MAG Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2012.08.22 16:57:00 - [23] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: lol heavies should have slow turning speed the ppl saying it should take teamwork to take down a heavy it should also take teamwork to keep 1 up i can 1v1 a heavy easy, 90% of the heavies play stupid no logis next to u? and ur running in the open? ur dead That's because they sometimes die whilst they're turning to see where the gunfire is generating from.
Evane Sa'edi Celtic Anarchy 62	Posted - 2012.08.22 19:39:00 - [24] - Quote HMG should induce fear in any but the very, very well armoured. But it doesn't due to the very low damage per round (mid to low teens in HP) against the AR damage per round (mid 30 to high 50 HP) The HMG is a bigger weapon, it should be doing damage in the low 60 to high 80 per round. Its designed for making Armoured Swiss Cheeze out of any thing in its way. The name used, Heavy Machine Gun, gives a false description of the weapon. It should be called a Light-weight Machine Gun. Maybe they should rethink the HMG useage, it looks like the 20mm chain gun with HEAP rounds, and retask it as an AV weapon?
Goric Rumis Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 80	Posted - 2012.08.22 22:29:00 - [25] - Quote The HMG as I understand it should be an anti-infantry weapon capable of mowing down groups at close range and ridiculously vulnerable at medium to long range. Just like a Scout should always go down first when squaring off with an Assault, an Assault should always go down first against a Heavy...within about 10m. This keeps the Heavy sprinting through open areas and using cover as much as possible to get favorable ranges. This is its own counter-balance, because a Heavy neither moves as quickly nor turns as sharply as any other class, so attackers will be able to move in and out of cover more easily in these areas. If a Heavy is guarding a point and three Assaults try to rush him head-on, in my opinion, they should take some serious damage in the process--the whole point being to operate tactically instead of just rushing. The Heavy likely had to put himself at risk just to get to that position, after all, so it runs both ways. The point of this post being, a high-damage HMG will not be over-powered if it is engineered to a specific tactical use. I see that as point-guarding and crowd control. Give it an extreme advantage if your circumstance is just right, and an extreme disadvantage if you play it poorly. Right now, in my opinion, it seems skewed toward disadvantage without a real corresponding advantage. Quote: The HMG is a bigger weapon, it should be doing damage in the low 60 to high 80 per round. 60-80 per round is too high for the RPM we're talking about. I was thinking more like 30-40 tops. That's already a 50%+ increase in damage.
fenrir storm Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 314	Posted - 2012.08.22 22:30:00 - [26] - Quote So let me get tihs you want a heavy with a heavy machine gun to be able to get shot and take little damage whilst being able to turn like a spinning top and kill everything in a storm of fire from his multi barreled chain gun of death with no overheat for the first 20 minutes of fire . And be able to take on tanks as a bonus. Sounds fair because they are so fragile and useless at the moment.
Goric Rumis Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 80	Posted - 2012.08.22 23:39:00 - [27] - Quote Another, more generally applicable thought about specialization: A player in any advanced gear shouldn't be ahead of a player in beginner gear every time. Meaning giving someone in a level 1 Heavy suit and HMG an advantage over someone in a level 5 Assault suit and prototype assault rifle shouldn't be a problem under the right conditions (e.g., close quarters one-on-one). Likewise, someone in a level 1 Assault suit and assault rifle should be able to take out a level 5 Heavy when the advantage is tipped (e.g., having a range advantage for a prolonged time). Specializations should hold in all circumstances. Once again, just one opinion.
Warrior of MAG Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2012.08.24 17:00:00 - [28] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: 60-80 per round is too high for the RPM we're talking about. I was thinking more like 30-40 tops. That's already a 50%+ increase in damage. In the pre-E3 build, the damage (DPS) of the heavy machine gun was around 24. The rate of fire is the same. There wasn't also any bullet lag when you fired the heavy machine gun, but now... prediction is a major tactic.
Altman Stormsinger Doomheim 16	Posted - 2012.08.24 17:48:00 - [29] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: lol heavies should have slow turning speed the ppl saying it should take teamwork to take down a heavy it should also take teamwork to keep 1 up i can 1v1 a heavy easy, 90% of the heavies play stupid no logis next to u? and ur running in the open? ur dead imma drop ur non existent shields and chip away at ur armor since my DPS > passive armor reps Heavies are OP when u have a logi next to u, i was reppin my buddy heavy suit and having him tank a **** load of shots increasing turn speed negates the weakness of the heavy which is being flanked , heavies should NOT be by themselves stick in a grp like u should and turn speed wont matter cuz ppl will have ur flanks ppl only watching the dmg of each HMG bullet being 19? watch the ROF and ur clip size then calculate ur dmg per clip compared to someone using an AR Fix hit detection before any changes to guns cuz the HMG imho is fine fixing hit detection seems to be the answer for alot of problems. if just 1/10th of the rounds that the buggy hit detection made miss actually landed the hmg would be "fixed" and i'm a logi who loves repping heavies. taking down a heavy is just a dps race, so heal your tank and everything will be fine.
Goric Rumis Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 80	Posted - 2012.08.24 20:00:00 - [30] - Quote Talking numbers, the HMG does no more DPS than an assault rifle. That's what doesn't seem right to me. Maybe there are attributes not listed in the weapon description that make a difference, but I don't see how it's an advantage beyond people getting freaked out by the sound and appearance of the gun itself. That's how I seem to bag most of my kills.



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