DUST Search - Corp vs Clana

Terrarim wrote:

Forlorn Destrier wrote:

Terrarim wrote:

Clans are allot more sophisticated than some Eve members are making out. As someone asked I will go into some details of some of the work done by FPS clans.

For example with my former Counter Strike Clan we did the following.

A clan identity including artwork, a website, forum, clan tag.

Rules, a code of conduct and aims and ambitions.

A recruiting process.

A hierarchy of Clan leader officers members and trialists and affiliates.

People with clearly defined responsibilities such as website/forum admin, server admins, real world money payments for rented server/ clan match organization, recruitment etc.

To train people in the basics of fpsGÇÖs

To train together in order to better prepare for organized clan tourneyGÇÖs, ladders (organized time on clan server)

Meet in ICQ (and/or voice chat program) to discuss forthcoming match tactics, discuss any intel on opponents weaknesses strengths etc.

Rent or own and be responsible for own clan server with its own rules etc.

So its not right to dismiss other clans out of hand as people must organize training, events, real world money for server higher, clan meetings etc.

Management wise, they are the same.

Mechanic wise, the games may or may not be as in depth as Eve.

Got it. thanks.

Assuming your not being sarcastic (hard to tell on forums sometimes) your welcome and my pleasure.

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Eirnin Solista Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 34	Posted - 2012.08.08 06:32:00 - [31] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: And failure to see this will result in being one of the first victims. Spying, or a clan? 0.o
John Surratt Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 49	Posted - 2012.08.08 07:07:00 - [32] - Quote The difference can be semantics or a completely different paradigm. Most EVE corps, especially highsec only corps are little different than standard MMO guilds or online gaming clans. A bunch of randoms dudes who you don't know really, in a text chat channel. Sometimes they can have a core identity such as a regional or nationalistic or language, but they often do not. What does set even these apart from other gaming groups is the many tools and assignable roles for asset management that the EVE client has. It makes a "guild bank" in a elf and wizard based MMO look like child's play. As EVE (and also DUST) is a sandbox game, social interaction is the force which drives the content, not dev created content. These tools, along with things like contracts (which are exactly what they sound like) help give a framework and tools for the meta game. This is where the talk of "simple corps" comes in to the mix in the CSM summit notes . There is no need for the majority of the roles in an EVE corp as no merc will ever need to "Config Starbase Equipment" etc. . . (page 72) . I'm not even gonna touch on things like station management, standings, or shares. Until the market between the two games and 0.0 gameplay get figured out there is no need for things like managing corporate contracts or setting standings. The corp UI is terribad and hopefully will be overhauled "SoonGäó" in EVE and made easier to use on a console for DUST. Corps can form alliances, which are like uber corporations, numbering into the thousands. The alliances can have outside identities such as Goonswarm (from the somethingaweful.com forums gaming section) & TEST (same basically but from Reddit), nationalistic origins such as RED.Overlord (Russians) or the Russian speaking half of AAA, or just be groups of various EVE corps like many of them are. They can even be (ugh!) roleplayers like CVA (Amarr Victor!) Some corps or alliances are also gaming clans in their own right as they have a multi game presence. Members choose to play any number of games with their closest brocefs, playing whatever and wherever the collective gaming ADD takes them next while keeping a core presence in EVE, and hopefully soon, DUST. Currently there is much salivation over Mechwarrior Online and Planetside2 in my corp. I'd dearly love to get some of the FPS only crowd on our coms and give him a dose of our alliance leader's management philosophy, as he is an old mossback FPS player. Dude's been gaming since Al Gore invented online FPS.
Terrarim 12	Posted - 2012.08.08 08:02:00 - [33] - Quote Clans are allot more sophisticated than some Eve members are making out. As someone asked I will go into some details of some of the work done by FPS clans. For example with my former Counter Strike Clan we did the following. A clan identity including artwork, a website, forum, clan tag. Rules, a code of conduct and aims and ambitions. A recruiting process. A hierarchy of Clan leader officers members and trialists and affiliates. People with clearly defined responsibilities such as website/forum admin, server admins, real world money payments for rented server/ clan match organization, recruitment etc. To train people in the basics of fpsGÇÖs To train together in order to better prepare for organized clan tourneyGÇÖs, ladders (organized time on clan server) Meet in ICQ (and/or voice chat program) to discuss forthcoming match tactics, discuss any intel on opponents weaknesses strengths etc. Rent or own and be responsible for own clan server with its own rules etc. So its not right to dismiss other clans out of hand as people must organize training, events, real world money for server higher, clan meetings etc.
Terrarim 12	Posted - 2012.08.08 08:03:00 - [34] - Quote In MAG due to the somewhat MMO nature of the game the clans were even more sophisticated: MAG In addition due to the way mag was made up with three factions clans also had the following: Clans arranged for alliances to try to work towards a goal on a given day or time whether it was to dominate acquisition or domination maps for example. There were several weekends at peak where large alliances of clans from all three factions would vie for control of a battleground. The fun thing was that other clans not directly contacted would also try to help to due to the fact they were in that faction. Clans actually split into areas of specialty within factions with some clans (=V= Clan of Valor) for example had a Valor only policy, but open to recruiting new people with the intent of training them in aspects of the game from basic fps, to mag specific training to advanced tactical training and getting the followers to work as a team in order to complete game objectives. Other clans recruited the best of the best and aimed to be the elite forces of that faction and while at MAG's peak they couldn't put numbers like the larger clans the fact that they were so good ensured that they dominated in their areas of operation (Dark Flock was an example on Raven). While Eve is allot more sophisticated and has the game mechanics for huge organizations, alliances and skullduggery. I don't think its fair to dismiss that clans have used many of the same things that eve are proud of including spies on either side to see when alliances would push for a certain contract. To amassing alliances of clans to acheave a sustained objective over a 48 hour period. And this was done without the help of any game mechanics making the organization of such events much more difficult than Eve with those mechanics built in. Diplomacy was part of MAG without which those events would not have been possible. Also like eve Mag had clans that hated each other within the same faction and this often spilled onto the mag forum boards etc. While I am sure that Eve corporations think rightly they have a huge leg up on any interlopers into their universe due to their experience with the game, the mechanics of the game. To think that players from clans particularly those from games like MAG have no experience in diplomacy, in organizing alliances, in training players, in recruiting, in planning and executing a sustained objective over a long time is naive. Neither have such clans been above using spies in rival organizations to counter plans. So I do resent that some eve players think that clans are very rudimentary. I hope that the above shows that despite games having the mechanics to allow them to do so like in EVE clans in other games like MAG has been quite sophisticated in everything from recruiting, training, diplomacy, planning, execution of alliance plans.
Apocro Mancer Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.08.08 08:05:00 - [35] - Quote The only clans in EVE are Minmatar.
Eirnin Solista Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 34	Posted - 2012.08.08 08:12:00 - [36] - Quote Aha! I figured out the confusion! @Clan People: Many of the people here aren't saying that "EVE corporations are going to kill all clans!" What they are saying (I believe) is that in DUST you won't have a clan but a corporation that will let you use all sorts of features and manage assets and other things. Remember: a corporation is just a clan that's using the gameplay mechanics rather than "unofficial" unity between its members. I don't know, sorry if I confused you worse. I'm tired, it's 4:12 AM here.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.08.08 08:25:00 - [37] - Quote This is so dumb. They're the same.
carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.08 09:06:00 - [38] - Quote As described above any EvE corporation worth its salt has team speak, web forums et c. those that don't have will disintegrate quickly. Main difference between Eve and most other MMO games is time, yes time, the time it takes to gather all those resources even gathering ISK takes time and usually effort. And by time I mean months and years since stuff don't make it self instantly by just gathering resources and slapping them to factory for example a single battle ship takes some 8 hours per ship to make so losing a say 400 of those in a single battle is definitely going to suck, let alone in cases of over 2000 pilots involved in a single fight. I would assume that dust will have to settle for a clan like structure in the beginning as it seems we're going to be lucky to get even a shared corp tag and a chat channel at launch. They will transform to corps once the game starts supporting it but until then the old and tried clan structure has to do it.
Minmatar Slave 74136 Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 291	Posted - 2012.08.08 10:50:00 - [39] - Quote Apocro Mancer wrote: The only clans in EVE are Minmatar. those are Tribes. ;) And not the kind of Tribes that I cut my gamer teeth on. :D
Forlorn Destrier ZionTCD Legacy Rising 914	Posted - 2012.08.08 12:24:00 - [40] - Quote Terrarim wrote: Clans are allot more sophisticated than some Eve members are making out. As someone asked I will go into some details of some of the work done by FPS clans. For example with my former Counter Strike Clan we did the following. A clan identity including artwork, a website, forum, clan tag. Rules, a code of conduct and aims and ambitions. A recruiting process. A hierarchy of Clan leader officers members and trialists and affiliates. People with clearly defined responsibilities such as website/forum admin, server admins, real world money payments for rented server/ clan match organization, recruitment etc. To train people in the basics of fpsGÇÖs To train together in order to better prepare for organized clan tourneyGÇÖs, ladders (organized time on clan server) Meet in ICQ (and/or voice chat program) to discuss forthcoming match tactics, discuss any intel on opponents weaknesses strengths etc. Rent or own and be responsible for own clan server with its own rules etc. So its not right to dismiss other clans out of hand as people must organize training, events, real world money for server higher, clan meetings etc. Management wise, they are the same. Mechanic wise, the games may or may not be as in depth as Eve. Got it. thanks.

Terrarim 12	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:23:00 - [41] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: Terrarim wrote: Clans are allot more sophisticated than some Eve members are making out. As someone asked I will go into some details of some of the work done by FPS clans. For example with my former Counter Strike Clan we did the following. A clan identity including artwork, a website, forum, clan tag. Rules, a code of conduct and aims and ambitions. A recruiting process. A hierarchy of Clan leader officers members and trialists and affiliates. People with clearly defined responsibilities such as website/forum admin, server admins, real world money payments for rented server/ clan match organization, recruitment etc. To train people in the basics of fpsGÇÖs To train together in order to better prepare for organized clan tourneyGÇÖs, ladders (organized time on clan server) Meet in ICQ (and/or voice chat program) to discuss forthcoming match tactics, discuss any intel on opponents weaknesses strengths etc. Rent or own and be responsible for own clan server with its own rules etc. So its not right to dismiss other clans out of hand as people must organize training, events, real world money for server higher, clan meetings etc. Management wise, they are the same. Mechanic wise, the games may or may not be as in depth as Eve. Got it. thanks. Assuming your not being sarcastic (hard to tell on forums sometimes) your welcome and my pleasure.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:07:00 - [42] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I never seen clans form bootcamps, trainings schools, hiring entire teams of media experts, a well established spy/intel/spin network, or gain enough power to rival an NPC faction. facepalm 1. bootcamps, training sorry clans already do that 2. media experts? for what? do other games require it? no so obv not gonna waste time and energy on something that was not important in previous games 3. See part 2 above.....again previous games why would a clan need this? 4. lolNPC, sorry but lolwut? again previous games no NPC factions, why was this even brought up? clans fight each other or they pubstomp randoms all day So dont judge clans on meaningless stuff we did not need to spend time and energy on in previous games, do not however mistake that for clans not seeing those as important ONLY IN NEW EDEN 3/4 of the stuff u mentioned serves 0 purpose from a clan perspective in other games hence the reason u never saw it 1/4 of the stuff u mentioned already happens sooooooo yeaaaaa...............gg As for the guy who asked why would u spy on a clan....well in new eden u will be a corp and as described earlier u will have assets etc that can be stolen if a spy is in ur ranks. But tbh i dont think spies will play a big role till 0.0 update .......and tbh DUST still actually needs to turn out good 1st and foremost or ppl just wasting their time spying when clans might not even get the damn game if it boring or just doesnt stack up fps wise to other games which currently it doesnt
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:15:00 - [43] - Quote Those spies are least interested in your assests. It just the bonus paycheck.
Zerlathon Algintal Core Gallente Federation 213	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:54:00 - [44] - Quote I don't see why people are getting so riled up over this. New Eden has Corporations & Alliances and other games have Clans, Guilds, etc... It's true that running a Corporation in New Eden appears to involve alot more attention to detail (compared to your run-of-the-mill FPS Clan), but that's not to say that you should consider People's reference to Clans as any form of insult. I have to admit, this is the 1st Community that I have seen where people get touchy on this simple misinterpretation.
Terrarim 12	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:58:00 - [45] - Quote Zerlathon wrote: I don't see why people are getting so riled up over this. New Eden has Corporations & Alliances and other games have Clans, Guilds, etc... It's true that running a Corporation in New Eden appears to involve alot more attention to detail (compared to your run-of-the-mill FPS Clan), but that's not to say that you should consider People's reference to Clans as any form of insult. I have to admit, this is the 1st Community that I have seen where people get touchy on this simple misinterpretation. Well people (like myself) might feel a little touchy when EVE people say this: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I never seen clans form bootcamps, trainings schools, hiring entire teams of media experts, a well established spy/intel/spin network, or gain enough power to rival an NPC faction.
Forlorn Destrier ZionTCD Legacy Rising 914	Posted - 2012.08.08 16:24:00 - [46] - Quote Terrarim wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: Terrarim wrote: Clans are allot more sophisticated than some Eve members are making out. As someone asked I will go into some details of some of the work done by FPS clans. For example with my former Counter Strike Clan we did the following. A clan identity including artwork, a website, forum, clan tag. Rules, a code of conduct and aims and ambitions. A recruiting process. A hierarchy of Clan leader officers members and trialists and affiliates. People with clearly defined responsibilities such as website/forum admin, server admins, real world money payments for rented server/ clan match organization, recruitment etc. To train people in the basics of fpsGÇÖs To train together in order to better prepare for organized clan tourneyGÇÖs, ladders (organized time on clan server) Meet in ICQ (and/or voice chat program) to discuss forthcoming match tactics, discuss any intel on opponents weaknesses strengths etc. Rent or own and be responsible for own clan server with its own rules etc. So its not right to dismiss other clans out of hand as people must organize training, events, real world money for server higher, clan meetings etc. Management wise, they are the same. Mechanic wise, the games may or may not be as in depth as Eve. Got it. thanks. Assuming your not being sarcastic (hard to tell on forums sometimes) your welcome and my pleasure. No sarcasm - legit comment.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.08.08 16:27:00 - [47] - Quote Terrarim wrote: Zerlathon wrote: I don't see why people are getting so riled up over this. New Eden has Corporations & Alliances and other games have Clans, Guilds, etc... It's true that running a Corporation in New Eden appears to involve alot more attention to detail (compared to your run-of-the-mill FPS Clan), but that's not to say that you should consider People's reference to Clans as any form of insult. I have to admit, this is the 1st Community that I have seen where people get touchy on this simple misinterpretation. Well people (like myself) might feel a little touchy when EVE people say this: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I never seen clans form bootcamps, trainings schools, hiring entire teams of media experts, a well established spy/intel/spin network, or gain enough power to rival an NPC faction. Well Im sorry... PC clans left a really bad taste in my mouth when the owner of the only local pingable server banned me for killing his bot. Also videos produced by some of these clans are not that encouraging none the less then again I suspect they're just a small population of them which make it unfourtunate the 'stupid' ones are the often the loudest and help set a bad sterotype.
Stabber McShank Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 22	Posted - 2012.08.08 16:38:00 - [48] - Quote The difference between the successful Eve Corporations and many (but not all) FPS Clans show more at an out of game organization level. Things Corps and Clans have in common (depending on the Corp/Clan obviously): Forums Defined "roles" for the Chain of Command Training for new players - though oddly enough, this is more common in FPS Clans than MANY Eve Corps Media Experts - Basically people who get the word out that your group kicks ass and the other groups don't. Everyone knows that having a good video showing your group dominating another group is a good thing as is taunting the vanquished in public forums. Things that are common in Eve Corps but not often used in Console Based FPS Clans: Dedicated Voice Coms capable of supporting over 1000 people - In the case of Eve Corps, most of these are tied directly to the API of the Characters themselves to prevent people from slipping through the cracks (person leaves but doesn't get his access revoked). Being forced to use whatever in-game voice options are offered can be problematic especially with the way CCP is known to program things. Having a dedicated Command channel and Battle channel at the same time makes coordination much easier. Especially when you decide to send 30k or more people to go burn Rome to the ground. Dedicated Jabber Services - Private Group Chat servers with a nice "broadcast" system to send out alerts when all hell breaks loose. Someone spots 20 guys roaming your space, send out a broadcast and watch a fleet magically form. Some channels even allow enemy commanders to hang out. Just because you are the enemy doesn't mean we can't chill together (just don't expect anything opsec to be leaked). Most of the 0.0 Alliance members are constantly in contact with each other just shooting the **** online without having to bother playing the game (which means less burnouts when you NEED people online). In-depth Wiki on every aspect of the game - Restricted to members only of course. You would not believe how useful having a good private wiki can be in a game as complex as CCP likes to design. Everything from fits, mechanics, tactics, guides, and even scamming lessons can be easily searched. Intelligence/Counter Intel - Doesn't matter if you own assets or not. Knowledge is power and knowing when, where, and the strategy the enemy is planning to use on you WILL win wars. Receiving a real-time update of what the other team is doing (and saying) DURING THE BATTLE is more important than stealing crap that will easily be replaced. Anyone who thinks spies are going to be useless in the Faction Warfare Merc Groups are in for a MAJOR shock. Some groups have down right scary Counter-Intel programs that make you seriously doubt the sanity of the members. None of this makes a Corp and better than a Clan, but it will give many Corps an edge (until the hardcore Clans play catch-up, which I seriously believe they will).
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.08.08 17:55:00 - [49] - Quote I can see the hardcore/hardheaded clans learning from black eyes easily and hopefully.
Terrarim 12	Posted - 2012.08.08 19:29:00 - [50] - Quote I think in the short term there wont be any damage done from dust players to eve players and vice versa until the game is fully integrated and that may take some time. In the mean time that will give dust players a chance to bone up on the various mechanism of eve and maybe look into the political aspects to. I assume that EVE players do respect the amount of talent that the hardcore FPS crowd have particularly the ones who run in clans and work as teams as well as being individually excellent. The reason I make this assumption is all the types of spies supposedly being planted in clans at the moment. A possible counter to some of the huge amounts of resources that the largest corps and alliances have may be the gorilla tactic of hiring elite dust teams to sabotage resources behind enemy lines etc. I would imagine being able to overtake ground assets and the like for surface to space fire may cause allot of damage to both planet-side and orbital assets. In addition well trained and equipped teams may make taking back the planet costly in time and resources to. This type of thing would be very interesting because if dust players can have this type of impact then the possibility of securing a relatively safe place to port into to conduct space warfare behind enemy lines will add another dimension to eve. Not only will this put value on dust(ites) but bring another level of strategy to the eve universe.



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