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Feedback from an FPS veteran

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Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2012.08.05 19:24:00 - [1] - Quote Here comments from a few days of playing. This is mostly about the FPS side of the game. My FPS background is 15+ years, 99% of it in online multiplayer games. I fell in love with the genre with Wolfenstein 3D, and I've played every Quake and every Doom since. Other FPSs I've enjoyed for years on end are Tribes 2, Battlefield 2 and Team Fortress 2. I also played mods for years, including Tactical Ops, True Combat, and Natural Selection. Recently I've only played PS3 games, mostly Killzone 2, MAG and Battlefield 3. I've played EVE Online as well, but have no active characters at the moment. I mostly play anti-tank roles, tank drivers, support/engineer classes, or snipers. I prefer objectives-based gameplay over deathmatch. Winning a game comes before KDR for me, even in PUGs with random people. I like playing as the underdog. General comments: Decent FPS mechanics - I was a bit worried about this since CCP has no background in the genre. You've integrated many of the features expected in a modern FPS. There's still a lot of work to be done on balancing, and to differentiate the FPS side of DUST from everyone else. More on that in another upcoming post. Good game pace, not too fast or too slow Absolutely love the fact FF is on! Finally a deep FPS where you can't shoot everything that moves. edit: I'm an idiot, FF is off - I wish it was on Decent graphics Sound is ok, and surround sound gives reasonable help in determining where the damage is coming from. Great music! As a former EVE player I was immediately in the EVE Universe the second I heard it. Helpful and unobtrusive in-game voice announcements Forge gun charged shot can be un-charged by running or melee without losing an ammo. Is this by design? Quickscoping is in the game - do you really want that? I sure don't Bunnyhopping is possible, if limited - do you really want that? I sure don't Soon(tm) I loled Bugs and issues: Spawn camping/base raping must be fixed. Hit boxes need to be fixed I get the occasional lag spike/rubber banding although my internet connection is good, and other games work fine Once I couldn't fire any weapon for several spawns, then it suddenly fixed itself. Aim assist is fiddly, especially when sniping How many goddam hits does it take to kill someone with a tank? Is this a hit box issue, or is this by design? It feels like the tanks are armed with potato guns. How many goddam hits does it take to kill someone in a tank with a Forge Gun? Is this a hit box issue, or is this by design? It feels like Forge Guns are potato guns. Part 2 to follow
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2012.08.05 19:24:00 - [2] - Quote Suggestions: KDR must go. It's not an accurate or even a useful way to gauge contribution to a battle in an objectives-based game. Players will do kills instead of trying to win the game. Even if you don't rank players based on KDR, showing it means people will still concentrate on KDR instead of points. If you insist on showing it, do it along with lots of other data, preferably not after every match. You should have the option to linger in the end-game stats window for much longer (2-5 mins) to check the stats, see what others did, and most importantly, to be able to chat with the people you just played with/against. Big part of building an FPS community is the camaraderie and smack talk after matches. All this becomes even more important in an MMO setting, and will be integral in making DUST's EVE universe into a world people want to return to. Give it a chance. When you switch a weapon while keeping zoom-in/scope-in button pressed, the game doesn't zoom in with the new weapon - you have to release L1 and re-press it. It would be more intuitive if the new weapon goes automatically to the state your buttons are in. If this is a deliberate feature for balancing, make auto-zoom-in slower when changing weapons. Same issue when running: pressing zoom-in button should force to walk and zoom-in. When you're crouching and hit run button, the merc should de-crouch start running. The weapon selector is fiddly. When you release it your stick is at one extreme, so your screen does an unwanted jerk. Move vehicle steering to right stick like everyone else does. It's unclear how Swarm Launcher works. I expected it to lock to something, but it didn't. I shot at vehicles, nothing happened - or so it seemed. I shot at people, they didn't die or take damage - or so it seemed. More visual and aural cues are needed for it. Own death notification is too small and not visible long enough. Suggestion to move it to center of screen - keep the kill/status ticker as is. Prone stance would be nice Show which way I am pointing with my turret/gun in a tank to aid orientating It's unclear what the points are that I get when killing someone or dealing damage to a tank. Are these SP? ISK? It needs to be clearer - perhaps a recap of all those at the end of the match. Popup when a skill is highlighted in the training screen, showing what the skill does Quickmatch option in the first menu when entering the game which puts you in a match mode easy to grasp for newbies. There were a lot of players with zero kills on many games, and that can't happen to a casual player after launch, or they'll ragequit after half a match since the game is F2P. Put them in a meat grinder game mode where they're bound to get kills. Way too much text to read, and too many popups. Less text, more tutorials and in-game learning. I know this is EVE and CCP, but this has to be addressed for DUST to succeed. FPS players don't have the patience or attention span of MMO players. Better visual/aural cues to show which vehicles I can enter, and how I'd prefer R1/L1 to navigate tabs and menus instead of the squishy R2/L2 Option to view teammates' gameplay feed while waiting for spawn Trophies. You must have trophies these days. Here concentrate on objectives-based trophies instead of thousand different versions of "KDR of 10:1," "killing streak of 10" and "bunnyhopped 20km." There are lots of people who trophy hunt, so align trophies with DUST's game design objectives, and you'll encourage teamplay even in PUGs. Ping meter, I can't find one. Intro to n00bs to EVE Universe which must include information about the ruthlessness of the world. This is critical in retaining players who are used to essentially zero punishment for getting killed or stupidity (ie. 99% of players). Preferably demonstrated in a tutorial rather than in words. Some sense of scale is needed. The star map is a good start, but it should show where are active skirmishes, where DUST players are, where EVE players are. Now it feels like just another FPS, and you're in your own bubble. Give us something which gives us an idea of the awesome scale of the universe. I'm serious that KDR must go. If it doesn't, we'll get hordes of shrill-voiced bunnyhopping stabby-stabby CoD kids with the only objective to have high KDR. If we wanted that, we'd be playing CoD. Parting note: don't try to please everyone! If you do, you'll end up with yet another CoD/BF clone. Find your niche, and fulfill our needs, and you'll have a steady stream of players who want to spend money on your game. From what I've seen with DUST thus far is promising, and you understand your customers. You need to balance better - especially vehicles - and ground the game better in EVE. PS. Auto-save notification on this forum is driving me nuts - it gives the useless notification every five seconds, and moves all text one line down, causing constant miss-clicks. Get rid of it.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.08.05 19:39:00 - [3] - Quote Some solid stuff here. Only thing I really don't agree with is the prone stance, but otherwise great... and yea, against the best tanks, the Forge IS a potato gun. You need at least two to kill it before it hides and activates reps.
Malcolm One Bragian Order Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2012.08.05 20:22:00 - [4] - Quote "bunnyhopped 20km" Trophy. I loled Giving some support to the OP. Good posts.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.08.05 22:04:00 - [5] - Quote Good posts indeed. Plenty of good points. I completely agree on the KDR aspect, though I'm sure many of our fellow testers would be outraged if features like the Leaderboards were to be removed.
Saiibot Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 142	Posted - 2012.08.05 23:43:00 - [6] - Quote If ccp DOES listen to EVERYONE then dust 514 will end up in a much more worse place than COD... it'll end up like MAG!! God forbid
Icy Tiger 496	Posted - 2012.08.06 00:33:00 - [7] - Quote Great points, and yes, the Kill Death Ratio must become a secondary objective, Win/Loss ratio should be displayed, along with Objectives, total score, and ISK Usage.
Bresker Veyne Algintal Core Gallente Federation 152	Posted - 2012.08.06 00:55:00 - [8] - Quote Maybe show howmuch points a player has earned in a match instead of K/D. And if you're interested you can select the player's name and see the details on how he earned the points: kills, hacks, damage vehicles, ... But a good commentary! Hopefully this'll get stickied or something.
Legolas Winterbane 4	Posted - 2012.08.06 01:51:00 - [9] - Quote I totally agree with everything except the prone part but other then that GJ
testguy242 44	Posted - 2012.08.06 04:41:00 - [10] - Quote Arramakaian Eka wrote: Suggestions: KDR must go. It's not an accurate or even a useful way to gauge contribution to a battle in an objectives-based game. Players will do kills instead of trying to win the game. Even if you don't rank players based on KDR, showing it means people will still concentrate on KDR instead of points. If you insist on showing it, do it along with lots of other data, preferably not after every match. I'm serious that KDR must go. If it doesn't, we'll get hordes of shrill-voiced bunnyhopping stabby-stabby CoD kids with the only objective to have high KDR. If we wanted that, we'd be playing CoD. Parting note: don't try to please everyone! If you do, you'll end up with yet another CoD/BF clone. Find your niche, and fulfill our needs, and you'll have a steady stream of players who want to spend money on your game. From what I've seen with DUST thus far is promising, and you understand your customers. You need to balance better - especially vehicles - and ground the game better in EVE. PS. Auto-save notification on this forum is driving me nuts - it gives the useless notification every five seconds, and moves all text one line down, causing constant miss-clicks. Get rid of it. I agree with most of your post, but these quotes I really agree with. I think the K/D ratio display is responsible for most of the people who only care about kills tarding up the game at present. It's also nice to see someone else who's been playing FPSes for as long as I have.

Jan Pac Algintal Core Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.08.06 08:04:00 - [11] - Quote I agree with all points! Thanks for the nice post!
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2012.08.06 12:03:00 - [12] - Quote Thanks for the support! As for prone, it's not something I'm passionate about and can definitely live without. If it was introduced, it would also require further balancing, and I'd prefer CCP to concentrate on bigger issues with the balance. Also from a game world perspective, it should be perfectly possible to create a dropsuit that's rock stable while crouched - even standing, although that's probably something we don't want. Bresker Veyne wrote: Maybe show howmuch points a player has earned in a match instead of K/D. And if you're interested you can select the player's name and see the details on how he earned the points: kills, hacks, damage vehicles, ... I like this. You could fit columns for kills, hacks, vehicle damage, etc., and players could even sort them based on any of the criteria. BUT the default ranking criteria should be game performance, not KDR. It is still unclear to me how I gain points (in-game notifications), ISK and SP. I believe ISK and SP are tied to points somehow? Therefore it would make most sense to use either one of them for rankings after each game instead of KDR, or creating yet another performance metric. K.I.S.S. and all that. ISK would make most sense from game world perspective, especially since we are mercenaries out for money, after all.
Karl Koekwaus Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2012.08.06 13:03:00 - [13] - Quote Nice list, I wanted to write some stuff about things like the scoreboard, going prone etc, but it seems you have it all covered :) one thing to add, I really miss Bipods on heavy weapons and the sniper rifle, even without going prone, hiding behind a wall, having a Bipod would be nice to reduce gun kickback when firing and increase stability when aiming Would Like again
BluMage 18	Posted - 2012.08.06 13:10:00 - [14] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Good posts indeed. Plenty of good points. I completely agree on the KDR aspect, though I'm sure many of our fellow testers would be outraged if features like the Leaderboards were to be removed. I think with the "Roles" and "Team player" feel of the game, maybe CCP could have different leaderboads for different contributions; Hacks, assists, heals, teammates spawned though uplinks, repairs made to teammates' vehicles, kills made from your LAV/HAV/Dropship while you are driving, etc. I think this would better show other players what kind of role you bring to the team and how you can be an asset to a future coporate employer.
Ferocitan 22	Posted - 2012.08.06 13:15:00 - [15] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Some solid stuff here. Only thing I really don't agree with is the prone stance, but otherwise great... and yea, against the best tanks, the Forge IS a potato gun. You need at least two to kill it before it hides and activates reps. Also agree with everything except prone stance.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2012.08.06 13:25:00 - [16] - Quote BluMage wrote: I think with the "Roles" and "Team player" feel of the game, maybe CCP could have different leaderboads for different contributions; Hacks, assists, heals, teammates spawned though uplinks, repairs made to teammates' vehicles, kills made from your LAV/HAV/Dropship while you are driving, etc. I think this would better show other players what kind of role you bring to the team and how you can be an asset to a future coporate employer. While this is a good idea, and is already been done in some other games, an FPS needs to have a universal, game-wide scoreboard and ranking. I don't know if DUST currently rewards each dropsuit differently, but that would make sense. In the end, the ISK you earn should be comparable between, say, Assault and Scout, and you should be able to rank everyone regardless of their role. Karl Koekwaus wrote: one thing to add, I really miss Bipods on heavy weapons and the sniper rifle, even without going prone, hiding behind a wall, having a Bipod would be nice to reduce gun kickback when firing and increase stability when aiming Perhaps nitpicking, but bipods are all but useless when crouching, unless there's a wall of suitable height in front of you.
Mitchman 514 36	Posted - 2012.08.06 13:26:00 - [17] - Quote Arramakaian Eka wrote: Absolutely love the fact FF is on! Finally a deep FPS where you can't shoot everything that moves. FF is on where? FF is off in DUST.
D Park 26	Posted - 2012.08.06 13:34:00 - [18] - Quote Bresker Veyne wrote: Maybe show howmuch points a player has earned in a match instead of K/D. And if you're interested you can select the player's name and see the details on how he earned the points: kills, hacks, damage vehicles, ... Excellent idea. +1. Could use it's own thread about stats reported.
Alixenus Omega protection service 36	Posted - 2012.08.06 14:28:00 - [19] - Quote Now I agree with most of what Mr. Eka said, however I have no issues with vehicle control as far as I can tell. Secondly a few people that I've spoken to find the pace slightly too slow (though these were guys who had just crawled their sorry selves out of nuketown) . Personally I'm happy with the pace. Third, swarm launchers can lock onto vehicles if you hold down the trigger whilst zoomed in. I often fire the missiles into the air once I have a lock so it comes down on ground targets like a mortar strike. lastly, those points that you score for kills/caps? I believe that they are war points, which are a way gauging the success of your corp in the trials (check the scorboard). However, additional isk and skill points are recieved for victories and contributions to that victory. and what was wrong with MAG? I never played it.

GM Unicorn 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 467	Posted - 2012.08.06 14:37:00 - [20] - Quote Mitchman 514 wrote: Arramakaian Eka wrote: Absolutely love the fact FF is on! Finally a deep FPS where you can't shoot everything that moves. FF is on where? FF is off in DUST. I think he means "off" . I really like the posts and I find a lot of valid points in them. +FAV Oh, the points that you earn by performing hacks, destructions, kills, etc... are WarPoints. Those are currently wrongly displayed as 0 in your character profile page even if they are properly granted.


Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2012.08.06 14:47:00 - [21] - Quote Wait what? FF is off in DUST? I went by some google searches I did a while ago which claimed a dev said FF is on. I haven't actually tested (since I don't TK), so I'm not questioning anyone. For clarity, I would very much prefer FF to be on. I haven't played an FPS without friendly fire in years, and have always avoided them like the plague. FF off rewards spray and pray since you don't have to look before you shoot. Truly a shame if FF will be off in the final version, and that will force me to re-consider the entire game - I'm that married to friendly fire being on.
Mr Funless Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 191	Posted - 2012.08.06 14:52:00 - [22] - Quote Good post. I disagree with your stance on needing prone. Would encourage even more kmwhore sniping. I like the rest of your post especially Arramakaian Eka wrote: Suggestions: [list] KDR must go. It's not an accurate or even a useful way to gauge contribution to a battle in an objectives-based game. Players will do kills instead of trying to win the game. Even if you don't rank players based on KDR, showing it means people will still concentrate on KDR instead of points. If you insist on showing it, do it along with lots of other data, preferably not after every match. You should have the option to linger in the end-game stats window for much longer (2-5 mins) to check the stats, see what others did, and most importantly, to be able to chat with the people you just played with/against. Big part of building an FPS community is the camaraderie and smack talk after matches. All this becomes even more important in an MMO setting, and will be integral in making DUST's EVE universe into a world people want to return to. Give it a chance. Amen. KDR should be a secondary or tertiary stat in a team game. Smack talking after a game would be nice. Typing with a gamepad though is....terrible. (hint: kb/m support) And yes, FF is OFF right now.
Needless Sacermendor 98	Posted - 2012.08.06 15:04:00 - [23] - Quote As Mitchman said friendly fire is currently off but expected to be on at some point before launch. Agree with the bulk of your ideas, good post. The forge gun charge being un-charged by running I like, I just wish it was equated to the swarm launcher which once locked cannot be cancelled. If you're talking about being a secondary gunner on a tank then it depends on the level of turrets being fitted, the proto ones are very good, accurate and powerful enough to be effective, though I'd like to see some user skill coming into effect when gunning from a vehicle, Turret operation should be a requirement to even fire a turret, I'd even like to see the small turret operation skills being required for different turret types and the amount of damage would be related to the users skill as well as the owners skill to fit the better turrets. Next point as discussed in too many threads already tanks shouldn't be easy to kill, in my opinion they already are, my well fitted Surya sits in the dock these days as a single proto forge gun demolishes it in no time and not being able to distinguish its position due to a glitch in the hit detection and direction indicator, but they're aware of this already. I agree KDR should be of less significance, the system works on War Points, that's what you get flashing up when you damage vehicles or structures and when you get a kill or repair damage etc. etc. these points are then somehow converted to an sp gain and an isk payout, how exactly we don't really know, but these War Points should be the primary stat on the end screen and as you said a breakdown, maybe percentage wise, of how players points were earned would be great. The weapon selector is very clunky, I really hope they find a better way to do that. You didn't get the swarm launcher, it IS supposed to lock on when you hold the fire button and point at a target, but I find (mostly in defence) it won't activate on structures, so you're stuck with just vehicle targets for that match, however I've not had a problem with it not working at all. Not sure what you ment by teammates feed while waiting to spawn, but at least being able to press the up button to view the player list / stats would be nice, this doesn't work while dead, hopefully just a bug. Most of the issues you've raised I think are already in hand, and some good suggestions too +1
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2012.08.06 15:14:00 - [24] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Not sure what you ment by teammates feed while waiting to spawn, but at least being able to press the up button to view the player list / stats would be nice, this doesn't work while dead, hopefully just a bug. I meant that one should be able to view the game from teammates' POV while waiting for spawn. This is optional, as it might cause balancing issues, and the spawn timers are quite short. If the timers go beyond 20 secs, giving players something to do while waiting for spawn is critical in keeping interest in the game. Viewing teammate feeds is one option, in addition to fitting and market access - but not necessarily ability to restock while in-game. I can't say more about that since I haven't tested fitting/market system thoroughly, yet. And as I said elsewhere, key to DUST's success is to have an FPS which works flawlessly, and offers a compelling reason to return to the game. Thanks also to you and others on help with the Swarm Launcher and Forge Gun in anti-tank roles - I'll test them out further tonight, as anti-tanking is usually my favorite role.
Alixenus Omega protection service 36	Posted - 2012.08.06 15:20:00 - [25] - Quote Quote: I think he means "off" . I really like the posts and I find a lot of valid points in them. +FAV Okay you've confused me now. Which one means you can wound your own team mates?
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2012.08.06 15:26:00 - [26] - Quote Alixenus wrote: Quote: I think he means "off" . I really like the posts and I find a lot of valid points in them. +FAV Okay you've confused me now. Which one means you can wound your own team mates? Friendly Fire "on" means you can hurt teammates :) The main reason I'm dead set on FF on is that it requires players to think. With FF off you can shoot at everything and anything that moves. It's fine for arcade shooters, but any deep FPS has at least the option to play on FF (on) servers. And FF (on) fits EVE Universe perfectly, as you're able to pull off double crosses, back stabbings and other corporate shenanigans. Imagine a decisive battle for a control of a planet between several corps, and all of a sudden one of the DUST merc corps gets mail from an EVE corp offering ONE MILLION DOLLARS for switching sides, and they do, turning on their teammates. That's what EVE is all about. And that requires FF (on). Griefing (lol I know we're in EVE Universe, but I guess it's possible) can be taken care of with in-game mechanics, ie. if you kill more than X players on your own team or cause Y damage to them you get a warning/kick/ban.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.08.06 15:35:00 - [27] - Quote I belive they said that High security matches will have Friendly fire off. Possibly faction warfare as well but being debated. I do know for a fact that FF will be off in null security.
Dewie Cheecham Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 677	Posted - 2012.08.06 15:46:00 - [28] - Quote I am certain FF will be on SOONGäó or at release. This is not WoW, but an EVE Online derivative, and there FF is definitely on.

GM Unicorn 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 467	Posted - 2012.08.06 16:14:00 - [29] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: The forge gun charge being un-charged by running I like, I just wish it was equated to the swarm launcher which once locked cannot be cancelled. If I rember correctly, if you lock a target and then you switch weapon you should be able to not waste your missile. Pretty sure.

Dewie Cheecham Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 677	Posted - 2012.08.06 16:36:00 - [30] - Quote GM Unicorn wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: The forge gun charge being un-charged by running I like, I just wish it was equated to the swarm launcher which once locked cannot be cancelled. If I rember correctly, if you lock a target and then you switch weapon you should be able to not waste your missile. Pretty sure. I'd love to go in and test the theory for you..:P



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