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Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 11:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
At least they are very closely so.
Especially now that a lot of infantry have put their 1 million SP in SL or FG skills. My early assessments that Tanks are in fact under powered, or have too little tank are by and large vindicated.
Rumours are that the Marauders are getting a price hike to 1.2M ISK, and I have not found any official post corroborating this claim.
If that happens, the Tanks must get a tremendous health buff. No one is going to waste a marauder on a round netting on average 100-200K ISK unless they are very sure it'll be able to survive. At 1.4M to 1.5M ISK total (including fitting), such a tank should have an average life expectancy of 7-8 rounds, barring accidents or screw ups.
This is made worse by the vehicle call feature. At present you have no assurance that you'll get your vehicle delivered, if the delivery is denied for any reason it is still removed from your inventory. It really sucks already when you call a Marauder, and are told the vehicle quota is reached. And then you stand there for a while, doing nothing, and trying again, and risk another rejection.
Having a high tier tank, means I haven't spent a lot of SP in infantry gear, meaning that once I'm on the field in the cheap suit, I'm useless without my tank.
That vehicle call bug must be addressed asap. I know it is a bug, but CCP won't get their vehicle mechanics tested, if tank drivers go broke over lost expensive vehicles, I think that about 20-30% of my tank losses are to this one bug. |
KryptixX
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
321
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 11:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dewie Cheecham wrote:At least they are very closely so.
Especially now that a lot of infantry have put their 1 million SP in SL or FG skills. My early assessments that Tanks are in fact under powered, or have too little tank are by and large vindicated.
Rumours are that the Marauders are getting a price hike to 1.2M ISK, and I have not found any official post corroborating this claim.
If that happens, the Tanks must get a tremendous health buff. No one is going to waste a marauder on a round netting on average 100-200K ISK unless they are very sure it'll be able to survive. At 1.4M to 1.5M ISK total (including fitting), such a tank should have an average life expectancy of 7-8 rounds, barring accidents or screw ups.
This is made worse by the vehicle call feature. At present you have no assurance that you'll get your vehicle delivered, if the delivery is denied for any reason it is still removed from your inventory. It really sucks already when you call a Marauder, and are told the vehicle quota is reached. And then you stand there for a while, doing nothing, and trying again, and risk another rejection.
Having a high tier tank, means I haven't spent a lot of SP in infantry gear, meaning that once I'm on the field in the cheap suit, I'm useless without my tank.
That vehicle call bug must be addressed asap. I know it is a bug, but CCP won't get their vehicle mechanics tested, if tank drivers go broke over lost expensive vehicles, I think that about 20-30% of my tank losses are to this one bug.
so you want a tank is invincible no matter how you use it?
a tank can easily last 7-8 rounds with the right driver, increasing health would be unnecessary.
you are not supposed to be able to pay for a tank with one round either, so in my opinion the price hike is justified. |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 11:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
The tanks are what they are. Neither under or overpowered. I find all these threads rather amusing. One week everyone's yelling something's too strong and should be nerfed. The next week once everyone learns to counter that threat the other side starts yelling it's underpowered.
Well tanks are just fine. Drivers just need to learn how to counter the new tactics being thrown at them.
I've been reading a lot about these neft cries. It is my understanding that such community outcries (and devs listening to them without waiting for them to calm down) are the reasons games such as MAG and Planetside got ruined.
So calm down tank drivers. Calm down and learn how to counter the new AV tactics. |
Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 11:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:The tanks are what they are. Neither under or overpowered. I find all these threads rather amusing. One week everyone's yelling something's too strong and should be nerfed. The next week once everyone learns to counter that threat the other side starts yelling it's underpowered.
Well tanks are just fine. Drivers just need to learn how to counter the new tactics being thrown at them.
I've been reading a lot about these neft cries. It is my understanding that such community outcries (and devs listening to them without waiting for them to calm down) are the reasons games such as MAG and Planetside got ruined.
So calm down tank drivers. Calm down and learn how to counter the new AV tactics.
I've always said that the tanks were underpowered, and only appeared OVER powered because the teamplay weren't there yet. It still aren't. But individually people are beginning to field a lot of AV weaponry to deal with tanks, which is fine, but that also means they die awfully fast.
A tank is a tank, and I don't ever think I claimed that they should be invincible, but tank drivers spend a LOT of SP specializing in driving tanks, and just as you probably have your preferred fit/role, I have mine. Your fit easily breaks even unless you really screw up, and you probably have cheaper fits to choose from should the need arise. Tanks are a little more expensive, and if I top fitted mine, I'll not even make it's worth in one round, perhaps not even two as it is. Meaning I'm compromising. But I am still limited to the choice between expensive, and very expensive.
I never said a tank should be invincible, but any fit, or vehicle should at least have a chance of breaking even in good hands. I'm seeing Sagarises and Suryas dying in droves now, under a barrage of Swarm launchers and Forge guns. That is not balanced. |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 11:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Of course it's balanced. It's balanced very well when you take into consideration how the game will be when it's complete. Everyone specializes in AV this week because they were all dominated by tanks last week. Everyone got 1M SP and the most itching issue for most was "OMG a tank killed me 234234 times last week and I want to kill it back". But next week people will start realising everyone's AV and suddenly AR skills will be back because AV fits are easy prey to anti-infantry fire. This will all balance itself out in waves. Don't worry.
I'm sure the cry next week will be that Swarms are underpowered and that Forges are hard to aim because people won't be able to kill infantry with them.
Just wait for actual teams to form. And also keep in mind we're earning SP at a crazy rate right now. It won't be this way later on. What we've been seeing in the past 2 weeks is an evolution that should take at least a few months after release.
And another issue. No, there is no way in hell you should be able to get enough ISK out of a single match to pay for a tank. Not even 2 matches. Tanks are not a personal weapon. They shouldn't even be a squad weapon. Tanks should be fielded at the discression of at least a team commander. |
Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 12:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:Of course it's balanced. It's balanced very well when you take into consideration how the game will be when it's complete.
If noone took the time to point out the imballabnces during a beta, they would not be fixed for the release.
And it is not balanced. Handheld weapons do MORE damage fer shot than tank mounted weapons? A top fitted tank only have about 6-7 times the health of a top fitted suit, if that.
In which reality does that make sense?
|
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 12:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dewie Cheecham wrote:Grit Breather wrote:Of course it's balanced. It's balanced very well when you take into consideration how the game will be when it's complete. If noone took the time to point out the imballabnces during a beta, they would not be fixed for the release. And it is not balanced. Handheld weapons do MORE damage fer shot than tank mounted weapons? A top fitted tank only have about 6-7 times the health of a top fitted suit, if that. In which reality does that make sense? In New Eden.
Keep in mind that what infantry rifles fire are not lead bullets. They are probably not metalic at all. What they fire are boiling plasma balls that explode on impact. I think a single scout suit (even militia) has more armour than a modern day tank. So the comparison is moot.
As for health, tanks are able to tank (really, no pun intended) a hell of a lot more damage than infantry. Even though tanks are not that stronger than infantry in DP, they are build to be able to take a lot more DPS than infantry. Tanks have bigger modules that work faster and do more. Keep in mind that tanks are not armour beasts. Their main idea is to get that HUGE turret to the front line.
Even modern day tanks are one-shotted by other tanks. Even the most advanced US tank is one-shotted by the cheapest 40 year-old Soviet tank in Africa or the Middle East. Tanks are easy to kill. They are today and they will be in the future. |
Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 12:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:Dewie Cheecham wrote:Grit Breather wrote:Of course it's balanced. It's balanced very well when you take into consideration how the game will be when it's complete. If noone took the time to point out the imballabnces during a beta, they would not be fixed for the release. And it is not balanced. Handheld weapons do MORE damage fer shot than tank mounted weapons? A top fitted tank only have about 6-7 times the health of a top fitted suit, if that. In which reality does that make sense? In New Eden. Keep in mind that what infantry rifles fire are not lead bullets. They are probably not metalic at all. What they fire are boiling plasma balls that explode on impact.
Please screw that argument sideways if you would be so kind.
Yes, the guns are more powerful, and the infantry may still have better armour than todays tanks. But SO DOES THE TANKS!
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Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 12:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
I stand behind what I said. I don't think tanks are underpowered. I don't think they are overpowered. There may be some room for small adjustments but in general things are good.
I don't consider AR's as infantry weapons. I consider them miniature explosive shells. Why do I do that? Because we're not infantry. We're walking tanks (allbeit smaller tanks than the driving ones). So yeah. A gun that can two-shot a small tank should be able to 150-shot a driving tank. |
Jak Teston
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
99
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 14:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Whether tanks are over- or underpowered depends on the person who fitted them and the person driving them.
Sometimes I casually destroy 3 tanks in a row and sometimes I hunt a single tank for a whole match. It depends slightly on the type of the tank, but there's been times where I couldn't even break the shields on a Soma and there've been times where I didn't even have to take cover to bring one down single-handedly.
Anyways, here's an important thought for at least 50% of tank drivers: Tanks are not rolling fortresses. There's a reason why they are so extremely fast in a straight line. They're meant to roll out of harms way when the wind changes direction. |
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Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 14:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gtfo. Tanks are not underpowered you silly fool. |
BAD FURRY
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
247
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 14:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dewie Cheecham wrote:At least they are very closely so.
Especially now that a lot of infantry have put their 1 million SP in SL or FG skills. My early assessments that Tanks are in fact under powered, or have too little tank are by and large vindicated.
Rumours are that the Marauders are getting a price hike to 1.2M ISK, and I have not found any official post corroborating this claim.
If that happens, the Tanks must get a tremendous health buff. No one is going to waste a marauder on a round netting on average 100-200K ISK unless they are very sure it'll be able to survive. At 1.4M to 1.5M ISK total (including fitting), such a tank should have an average life expectancy of 7-8 rounds, barring accidents or screw ups.
This is made worse by the vehicle call feature. At present you have no assurance that you'll get your vehicle delivered, if the delivery is denied for any reason it is still removed from your inventory. It really sucks already when you call a Marauder, and are told the vehicle quota is reached. And then you stand there for a while, doing nothing, and trying again, and risk another rejection.
Having a high tier tank, means I haven't spent a lot of SP in infantry gear, meaning that once I'm on the field in the cheap suit, I'm useless without my tank.
That vehicle call bug must be addressed asap. I know it is a bug, but CCP won't get their vehicle mechanics tested, if tank drivers go broke over lost expensive vehicles, I think that about 20-30% of my tank losses are to this one bug.
T-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-tOOOooooooooooLLLLllllllIN !!!! |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 14:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hell, only reason why my Sagaris might seem UP is because I don't have a good fit set up for it yet. Marauders are fearsome machines, and you can easily roll 3-4 matches in a row with one just steamrolling the enemy and shrugging off damage like nothing. The price hike will help to balance that level of performance with enough of a degree of risk that we won't see 12 man teams pulling out 4 of them as often. |
The dark cloud
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1060
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
How about you are sticking with infantry that has assault rifles instead of going on a solo rampage with your tank? A tank needs support from normal units. Stick to that and dont be a lonewolf trying to milk off some kills. Cause in the end the AV players will blow you up faster as you can activate your shield booster. |
Xocoyol Zaraoul
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
I don't think HAVs are underpowered. A proper fit can survive a beating, and you just have to be smart and be mobile, always on the bounce. Avoid AV suits unless you have support of your own, and learn to combat them effectively using cover and where to aim for maximum splash.
I feel that HAVs are in a good spot right now, just need to have the marauders be price hiked. |
Sha Kharn Clone
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1087
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:Gtfo. Tanks are not underpowered you silly fool.
This ^
If your not stomping eveything in sight your either a bad noob or you actualy met a team thats working really well together.
Tanks need a nerf or AV needs a buff I dont know how but its not ballanced as it is. |
W0olley
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
242
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
It's an FPS, tanks aren't ment to dominate the battlefield. They aren't ment to be used as a tool to help win the match not be the definitive play style of the game.
Everyone isn't going to be willing to put a bunch of ISK into vehicles if they cost a lot but everyone shouldn't be using vehicles, they should only be for people who choose to specialize in that area and learn the ins and outs of their vehicle of choice and those people will be more then willing to spend that money and if they are good corps will be more then happy to supply them with that money. |
Cameron StarGazer
63
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Your having a laugh!
Levelled up taks with missile launcher main turrets are deadly! Especially with a full compliment of crew manning all the guns. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
How about using your murader as Infantry Support. As In stay near the infantry you have no idea how deadly anti-infantry are against anti-vehicle units.
Remember this game practices imperfect balace thoery, flavors of the week (and at launch the month) are just that they last only a week. When people get overly annoyed by them they build counters to it to solutionize the situation. And to think we have a small fraction of the tools now imagine how much more solutification aginst tanks there will be in the future. Imagine your tank is on fire reppers are still recharging and you being to run away.
Blam! A webifier grenade slows your entire tank speed down to a crawl slower than a heavy crouching.
Or how about by the time you got to somewhere safe waiting for your tank capacitor to recharge the modules then a drop ship comes by and locks onto you and begins to drain the cap away preventing activation of any module.
E-war is comming and its going to make your tanking days hellish.
There is a reason why tanks are nicknamed Bullet Magnets. |
carl von oppenheimer
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
I have a gunlogi atm. and with the best damage reduction modules and a suit case it can take a lot of punishement before dropping. How ever I still get one shotted by marauders because the gunlogi cannot have both buffer and resists but against basic infantry, drop ships and militia stuff it has no issues. Though you would think that some +3k of total hp with 50% reduction would keep you from being one shotted. |
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Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 16:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
carl von oppenheimer wrote:I have a gunlogi atm. and with the best damage reduction modules and a suit case it can take a lot of punishement before dropping. How ever I still get one shotted by marauders because the gunlogi cannot have both buffer and resists but against basic infantry, drop ships and militia stuff it has no issues. Though you would think that some +3k of total hp with 50% reduction would keep you from being one shotted.
My heavy has more HP than you... and almost more EHP than you as well. |
Drake Lyons
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
carl von oppenheimer wrote:I have a gunlogi atm. and with the best damage reduction modules and a suit case it can take a lot of punishement before dropping. How ever I still get one shotted by marauders because the gunlogi cannot have both buffer and resists but against basic infantry, drop ships and militia stuff it has no issues. Though you would think that some +3k of total hp with 50% reduction would keep you from being one shotted.
I don't know how that's possible...the most powerful railgun with the marauder bonus should be doing 2025 damage, unless they've made vehicle damage mods effective now. Now, if you get hit with a couple of direct missile rounds and a railgun round at once, you are in serious trouble. Maybe that's what's happening?
As it is, I don't know if tanks are UP. They are certainly not OP, though. I think this has been realized since people started training AV. One person in a good location with a swarm launcher and damage mods can basically lock a tank down and provide some serious area denial. |
Sephoran Griffith
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dewie Cheecham wrote:Grit Breather wrote:The tanks are what they are. Neither under or overpowered. I find all these threads rather amusing. One week everyone's yelling something's too strong and should be nerfed. The next week once everyone learns to counter that threat the other side starts yelling it's underpowered.
Well tanks are just fine. Drivers just need to learn how to counter the new tactics being thrown at them.
I've been reading a lot about these neft cries. It is my understanding that such community outcries (and devs listening to them without waiting for them to calm down) are the reasons games such as MAG and Planetside got ruined.
So calm down tank drivers. Calm down and learn how to counter the new AV tactics. I've always said that the tanks were underpowered, and only appeared OVER powered because the teamplay weren't there yet. It still aren't. But individually people are beginning to field a lot of AV weaponry to deal with tanks, which is fine, but that also means they die awfully fast. A tank is a tank, and I don't ever think I claimed that they should be invincible, but tank drivers spend a LOT of SP specializing in driving tanks, and just as you probably have your preferred fit/role, I have mine. Your fit easily breaks even unless you really screw up, and you probably have cheaper fits to choose from should the need arise. Tanks are a little more expensive, and if I top fitted mine, I'll not even make it's worth in one round, perhaps not even two as it is. Meaning I'm compromising. But I am still limited to the choice between expensive, and very expensive. I never said a tank should be invincible, but any fit, or vehicle should at least have a chance of breaking even in good hands. I'm seeing Sagarises and Suryas dying in droves now, under a barrage of Swarm launchers and Forge guns. That is not balanced. No to this whole idea. You are totally missing the point. You don't bri g a tank to every battle, just lie I don't bring the best suit to every battle. Choose your gear based on the risk/reward at hand. Keep in mind a corp contract can pay whatever it wants and once we go live a million ISk will be nothing. |
ICECREAMK1NG WARRIORS
99
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Hey Dewie, you're taking the p1ss right ? lol,,, I seen some stupid ass threads on here but you win the prize mate well done. |
Pezz IsDank
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
171
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 17:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
lololol no, I've seen well tanked sagaris tanks take hoards of missiles at once and regen back all its shields within seconds before everyone can launch them again. I personally only have a gunnlogi right now and it completely owns infantry, I still get raped by marauders and don't seem to stand a chance against them unless I'm using a railgun but only 400k away. |
Wako 75
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
76
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 19:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
only read first pos t my opinion is they are just finewhat i think you need to do is talk to a good tank driver because i know 3 very good tank drivers and i try and learn all i can from them also when i ride in there tank i go like 19/0 and get 80,000+ sp 400,000 isk just keep on tryin and you will get there |
carl von oppenheimer
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 19:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
Drake Lyons wrote: I don't know how that's possible...the most powerful railgun with the marauder bonus should be doing 2025 damage, unless they've made vehicle damage mods effective now. Now, if you get hit with a couple of direct missile rounds and a railgun round at once, you are in serious trouble. Maybe that's what's happening?
Hard to say because I see that rail gun lining up and *pum* back to respawn with one shot, not that I think that my gunlogi could take a second from auxiliary weapons even if it would survive the main weapon hit. |
Raynor Ragna
266
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 20:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Right now Swarms and Forgeguns are the flavor of the month.
A good fix would be allowing better turning rates at slow speeds. And often times the tank will turn the wrong direction when it hits an object which adds about 5 seconds to an escape. Also Swarms are either glitched or too smart. They often avoid obsticles or pass right through them. Fix that and make them 25% faster to even it out. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 20:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Well-built tanks aren't underpowered.
Militia tanks and bad fits are underpowered. I've gone up against two differently-built Madrugars in one match with my Militia Swarm Launcher.
I soloed one, and got steamrolled by the other. Why? Because one was badly built.
Also, a lot of people insist that Missiles are the only weapons you should equip on vehicles in the current build, but a good Railgun tank is one of the best AV weapons you can field. You just need your gunners to know not to waste their shots on infantry when they have a tank or LAV to aim for.
EDIT: And in most cases Swarms only avoid obstacles when the user knows how to curve their shots. It's not just point-and-shot and everything hits. |
Bhal Jhor
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
23
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 22:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
Well, either the tanks are underpowered or the prototype swarm launchers are overpowered. They apparently come out of nowhere (they can be fired through a rather narrow peek-hold apparently), track you forever and dodge obstacles when you try and run. They also seem to two-shot my surya. |
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