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Darky SI
232
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Posted - 2012.07.21 21:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote:
ugh am bad at searching for key word threads, thanks for the link man your post have good potential.
I came a cross a lot of good ideas (Mr Vito included) to fix this, CCP have no excuse for not implementing similar system  |
Chihiro Itto
66
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Posted - 2012.07.21 23:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote:
+1 for some good ideas there, although I feel they may be a little over-powered. I don't really think you should be able to stop the vehicle remotely or blow it up, those kind of functions are probably open to too much abuse or will confuse other players. If you are simply locked out of a driver seat then at least you know what's (not) happening. Driving off with a Dship or tank that suddenly lands or stops moving for no apparent reason would be confusing and annoying in equal measure, even if it is fairer for the driver.
@ Mr Vito - +1 but as I mentioned earlier, as I see it, the problem with a skill-based lock out is you may end up with an empty vehicle that no-one can access taking up a vehicle slot that no-one on your team can use (ie. one of the limited number of vehicles available per team), which would disadvantage your team. Allowing anyone access when the driver has died or left the vehicle for a significant length of time means this isn't an issue.
There may be a way to use a skill-based denial system (which does make sense as far as it goes), but I can't see a way around the 'dead vehicle' issue, unless you start 'de-rezzing' perfectly good vehicles after a certain length of time, which makes no sense in the lore and isn't a very elegant solution either. If anyone can think of one I'd love to hear it though.
I'm intrigued to see what CCP do here. 10 to 1 they do nothing at all.  |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
377
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Posted - 2012.07.21 23:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Chihiro Itto wrote:Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote: +1 for some good ideas there, although I feel they may be a little over-powered. I don't really think you should be able to stop the vehicle remotely or blow it up, those kind of functions are probably open to too much abuse or will confuse other players. If you are simply locked out of a driver seat then at least you know what's (not) happening. Driving off with a Dship or tank that suddenly lands or stops moving for no apparent reason would be confusing and annoying in equal measure, even if it is fairer for the driver. @ Mr Vito - +1 but as I mentioned earlier, as I see it, the problem with a skill-based lock out is you may end up with an empty vehicle that no-one can access taking up a vehicle slot that no-one on your team can use (ie. one of the limited number of vehicles available per team), which would disadvantage your team. Allowing anyone access when the driver has died or left the vehicle for a significant length of time means this isn't an issue. There may be a way to use a skill-based denial system (which does make sense as far as it goes), but I can't see a way around the 'dead vehicle' issue, unless you start 'de-rezzing' perfectly good vehicles after a certain length of time, which makes no sense in the lore and isn't a very elegant solution either. If anyone can think of one I'd love to hear it though. I'm intrigued to see what CCP do here. 10 to 1 they do nothing at all.
really someone suggested remote blowing up the tank that they complain about people taking and destroying what is the difference there lmao |
Mo Gallas Gentralde
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2012.07.22 07:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
The difference? Say someone is hacking your tank and no allies are around to secure it, (aka. prevent the hack) You trigger the Self Destruct mechanism, and you now have an option to get rid of both the hacker and compromised technology. If the hacker doesn't check for the self-destruct in time he'll blow up with the tank if he attempts to get into it, as only the Owner menu would display the destruct timer.
That way you have a tactical method of disposal so your custom builds are not used against you. |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
377
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Posted - 2012.07.22 08:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote:The difference? Say someone is hacking your tank and no allies are around to secure it, (aka. prevent the hack) You trigger the Self Destruct mechanism, and you now have an option to get rid of both the hacker and compromised technology. If the hacker doesn't check for the self-destruct in time he'll blow up with the tank if he attempts to get into it, as only the Owner menu would display the destruct timer.
That way you have a tactical method of disposal so your custom builds are not used against you.
thats part of the game why would ccp give you the option to blow it up next someone will want to remove the hacks so the enemy cant take their vehicle just like they want to be able to kick people out of the driver seat. The vehicle is no longer your vehicle once you leave the driver seat after that its who ever jumps in friendly or enemy. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
404
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Posted - 2012.07.22 09:39:00 -
[36] - Quote
gangsta nachos wrote:Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote:The difference? Say someone is hacking your tank and no allies are around to secure it, (aka. prevent the hack) You trigger the Self Destruct mechanism, and you now have an option to get rid of both the hacker and compromised technology. If the hacker doesn't check for the self-destruct in time he'll blow up with the tank if he attempts to get into it, as only the Owner menu would display the destruct timer.
That way you have a tactical method of disposal so your custom builds are not used against you. thats part of the game why would ccp give you the option to blow it up next someone will want to remove the hacks so the enemy cant take their vehicle just like they want to be able to kick people out of the driver seat. The vehicle is no longer your vehicle once you leave the driver seat after that its who ever jumps in friendly or enemy.
Stealing squadmate's rides can be fun, and it is part of a lot of the kiddie shooters, but I don't think it belongs in DUST. |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
377
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Posted - 2012.07.22 10:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
OMG I figured you EVE guys would understand the part about you the driver making the DECISION to hop out that is one of the favorite words on the forum. If the driver decides to hop out and someone decides to hop in his tank. You can either decide to call in another tank or decide to walk your happy ass around. |
Rhadiem
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
496
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Posted - 2012.07.22 11:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
I like this, and have a minor addition to it.
For the lockout period, this should happen for new drops, as well as when you exit to jump out for something.. there should be a pilot-seat lockout for ~10 seconds each time.
This way you can jump out to cap something or, say swap dropsuits at the resupply, drop an uplink, or whatever, without risking your ship taking off without you.
The forced "take over" would be for the life of the vehicle.
It would also be nice to see on the HUD a different color marker for YOUR vehicle. |
Rhadiem
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
496
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Posted - 2012.07.22 11:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
gangsta nachos wrote:OMG I figured you EVE guys would understand the part about you the driver making the DECISION to hop out that is one of the favorite words on the forum. If the driver decides to hop out and someone decides to hop in his tank. You can either decide to call in another tank or decide to walk your happy ass around.
Vehicle pilots don't automatically mean EVE players. :) Battlefield has lots of vehicles.
EVE doesn't have much use for jumping out of a ship in space though, not like Dust does. No points to cap, uplinks and nanohives to drop, etc. The only time I ejected willingly in EVE was to enter a vehicle sitting inside a corp POS inside a wormhole, and that was safe inside the station's shield bubble. |
Chihiro Itto
66
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Posted - 2012.07.22 16:34:00 -
[40] - Quote
I can see an argument that a pilot/driver should never leave their vehicle and if they do so they forfeit any rights to their expensive kit, but I don't agree with it. As the purchaser of the vehicle I think you should have some kind of control over what you purchased above and beyond the rest of the team, especially with the high costs of the equipment.
At the very least there's no way someone should be able to steal your ride when it's first delivered, which is always a risk unless you run off into the blue yonder whenever you want to order up transport.
Hold the phone. I just thought of an alternate way to manage all this:
As long as the driver/pilot is within a certain distance of the vehicle, say a 20 metres/yard radius, the driver seat is locked for team-members. If the driver dies or wanders beyond this zone then the driver seat unlocks and the vehicle can be taken.
That might be the simplest solution of all. No need to kick players, no need for extra buttons or combos, no worries about vehicle delivery and all automatic. It even lets team-mates GTA if they are watching the pilot's distance-from-vehicle. Comments/criticisms? |
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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
404
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Posted - 2012.07.22 23:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
Chihiro Itto wrote:I can see an argument that a pilot/driver should never leave their vehicle and if they do so they forfeit any rights to their expensive kit, but I don't agree with it. As the purchaser of the vehicle I think you should have some kind of control over what you purchased above and beyond the rest of the team, especially with the high costs of the equipment.
At the very least there's no way someone should be able to steal your ride when it's first delivered, which is always a risk unless you run off into the blue yonder whenever you want to order up transport.
Hold the phone. I just thought of an alternate way to manage all this:
As long as the driver/pilot is within a certain distance of the vehicle, say a 20 metres/yard radius, the driver seat is locked for team-members. If the driver dies or wanders beyond this zone then the driver seat unlocks and the vehicle can be taken.
That might be the simplest solution of all. No need to kick players, no need for extra buttons or combos, no worries about vehicle delivery and all automatic. It even lets team-mates GTA if they are watching the pilot's distance-from-vehicle. Comments/criticisms?
That, Chihiro Itto, is a damn fine idea. You got my vote. I'd make it 50 to give the pilots/drivers some tactical options as to where they park their rides.
It will also allow for team-killing to steal ships/tanks, which is somehow very EVE-like.
And as a bonus, it leaves no doubts as to the motivations of the thief. The drama will be epic! |
Chihiro Itto
66
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Posted - 2012.07.23 05:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Cheers. I think it's probably the best and simplest solution, but it needs poking with a stick to see if there's any holes or other drawbacks to it. I see your point with the distance, although I think you need to stay fairly close to your vehicle if you do get out. Maybe 30M might be better. It could be tweaked up or down easily enough though. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.23 10:20:00 -
[43] - Quote
Chihiro, I MAY have found a slight flaw in your plan.
What happens when the owner WANTS to be a gunner instead of the driver?
If you automate it such that when they're in the vehicle and not in the driver's seat another player can take over, that leaves us with the same problem we have now where your teammates can hijack your vehicle and you can't do anything about it, but if you make it so they can't take over, you can't let your allies take control of your vehicle without having to actively run AWAY from it.
Giving the owning player a simple "hold triangle to swap into driver's seat" option would be less problematic, imo. |
Chihiro Itto
66
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Posted - 2012.07.23 16:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Chihiro, I MAY have found a slight flaw in your plan.
What happens when the owner WANTS to be a gunner instead of the driver?
If you automate it such that when they're in the vehicle and not in the driver's seat another player can take over, that leaves us with the same problem we have now where your teammates can hijack your vehicle and you can't do anything about it, but if you make it so they can't take over, you can't let your allies take control of your vehicle without having to actively run AWAY from it.
Giving the owning player a simple "hold triangle to swap into driver's seat" option would be less problematic, imo.
Interesting. I knew it couldn't be that easy.
First question - if you just want to be the gunner in a vehicle is it really worth your while to pay for the vehicle yourself? Especially if better and more expensive vehicles will require you to use millions of SP & ISK on piloting, vehicle skills and equipment just to be a gunner in a vehicle which (by choice) you have little control over? I suppose some people might, although when the game comes out of beta I imagine it would be more effective, cheaper and a lot less hassle to just buddy up with someone who wants to drive and needs a regular accomplice. Any vehicle owner is going to be pretty happy about someone who wants to be a dedicated gunner I would think, as long as the gunner isn't a complete tool.
Back to your point. You still need more than a 'swap into drivers seat button' because you have to be in or next to the vehicle to use that option. It doesn't prevent theft at vehicle deployment or if you step outside your transport more than a few feet. Say then that we combine the two ideas: the driver seat is locked automatically as long as the owner is driving or within short range of the vehicle, but if the owner chooses to switch to a gunner/passenger seat then the driver seat becomes unlocked for other players. If the owner then wishes to return to the driver's seat the current driver will switch places or be kicked from the vehicle (if it's full and the owner gets on-board).
It works, but it adds layers of complexity for the owner and other players (extra buttons, 'why did I just get kicked out of the vehicle?') and may not feel fair to other players (if we can kick a driver out, why not a kick all crew ability?). I'm not sure that's worth it just to allow players to gun from their own vehicles when they could do a better job gunning for someone else on their team (and for such people the option is still there as long as you run a short distance away from your ride before re-joining your new driver. Or you could have the driver seat auto-unlock permanently if the owner chooses to swap to another position, although with that you do run the risk of the owner doing so by accident and losing rights to the drivers seat).
I'm not trying to say my way is best, just trying to strike a balance between function and simplicity. I'm curious how many players would really want to buy/skill something expensive just to gun from when they could simply join someone else, let them pay the costs of the vehicle/skills and use their own skills/ISK for something more suitable for gunners. I'm also pretty curious what CCP will actually do about this issue - if they do anything at all, of course...
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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
404
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Posted - 2012.07.23 22:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Chihiro, I MAY have found a slight flaw in your plan.
What happens when the owner WANTS to be a gunner instead of the driver?
If you automate it such that when they're in the vehicle and not in the driver's seat another player can take over, that leaves us with the same problem we have now where your teammates can hijack your vehicle and you can't do anything about it, but if you make it so they can't take over, you can't let your allies take control of your vehicle without having to actively run AWAY from it.
Giving the owning player a simple "hold triangle to swap into driver's seat" option would be less problematic, imo.
What if it's made so that if the owner is inside the vehicle then he can switch between seats at will?
When the owner is outside the vehicle, Chihiro's idea applies and the driver's seat is locked.
When an owner exits a vehicle, all ship occupants are moved automatically to gunner positions and passenger positions. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.23 23:43:00 -
[46] - Quote
My question was specifically for people when we're running our corporations, and if you have someone with a lower-tier Dropship, but want a better player piloting, you call the dropship in, but let them take the piloting role.
Or if you've got a LOT of vehicles, and a teammate has just skilled up for them but can't afford their own, call in one for each of you (and let your other teammates fill in as gunners for both). Or just call one in for a lower-ranked corp-mate to get them some experience with the higher-grade gear that they have the skills for, but not the ISK.
I think it's a great solution, other than those situations.
And after careful thought, and reading replies from you and Vrain, I think there's a simple solution.
When the owner is near the vehicle, but not inside, the driver/pilot position is locked and unavailable to other players. When the owner is in the vehicle, regardless of their position in the vehicle, all unused seats are unlocked. If the owner is manning a turret, the driver's seat will be open for another player to fill.
But if the owner isn't in the driver/pilot position when they take control of a vehicle, they should EITHER have a temporary "swap" prompt to take that role over when someone enters their vehicle, OR they should also have a "hold to become driver/pilot" function when you're the owner.
So you CAN take over if you're manning a turret for a tactical reason and someone tries to "steal" your vehicle, but you can also let another player take over if you want them to. Not sure whether a temporary context-sensitive option is better, or if you'd be better with the permanent option though. Having a second or so of warning before letting the other player keep control is more fair on the pilot, but the other guy is still the owner, so it's a situation where I can argue for both sides easily.
And I DEFINITELY don't think a driver/pilot should be moved out of that position when the owner jumps out of the vehicle, or when they get into range of the vehicle. I think if the vehicle in question is full, the owner left it too long, and it's their own fault. Stay close to where you called your vehicle in, and this won't happen, because until you're there, the pilot seat will be locked.
I'm also in favour of "if you don't have the skills, you can't pilot" - but in saying that, you should still be able to get into the gunner's seats of a vehicle even without skills. |
Chihiro Itto
66
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Posted - 2012.07.24 14:35:00 -
[47] - Quote
Good work. As a concept this is probably at the point where you put some version of it in the beta and test it out in practice. It's probably only after it's been trialed for a time that the fine tuning we've been discussing can be made final, but I think we've considered 95% of the possibilities/problems and produced a decent solution.
Nice job Dust players. Over to you CCP...  |
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