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Helping newbros: buffing STD/ADV

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Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.12.18 17:47:00 - [1] - Quote One thing we desperately need is new player retention. And one of the chief reasons players don't stay is their inability to compete. And a big reason for that is fitting space. The change to make all tiers of suit have the same fitting space was a good step in the right direction, but we failed to also increase CPU/PG when we did so. But originally, the suit CPU/PG allotment was designed around the lower slot count. Standard had way less fitting than proto because standard had way less slots. So now new players can't even utilize those extra slots because they simply don't have the fitting space. I did a random sampling of about 10 different suit types across all types and races, and I found that standard had ~47% of the fitting proto does. That is insane. I mean look at this: here is a completely militia fit suit, a fit a new player might use. Notice how its over its PG/CPU allotment? That's on a character with max skills in everything. Max CPU/pG increase, max weapon PG/CPU reduction (both main and sidearm) max light damage mod reduction; every single fitting skill is maxed out, and we still cannot fit everything. If a maxed out player can't do it, how is a newbro supposed to compete? What we need to do is massively buff the CPU/PG of all tiers of suit save for proto. Proto is in a good spot fitting wise, so we should keep it the same. What we need to do is buff militia, standard, and advanced fitting space to be closer to proto's fitting allotment. Assuming numbers are MLT/STD/ADV, I am tentatively thinking of a 55%/60%/80% of the proto version's fitting space. This will give a massive buff to lower tier suits, which helps newbros. And they need all the help they can get at this point. I can draw up a spreadsheet with exact numbers, but since that would take a long time I'm going to wait to see if this idea catches on before spending time on it. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 574	Posted - 2015.12.18 18:17:00 - [2] - Quote An altrenative would be to generate an amount of fitting per slot type at each tier (similar to what was done with vehicels when they started the whole same slot layout at different tiers), and generate new fitting statistics based off of that. Either way would work, and I generally support anything that makes STD/ADV gear more competitive overall Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Text Grant OSG Planetary Operations 448	Posted - 2015.12.19 11:16:00 - [3] - Quote This would be a step in the right direction
DIinkelFritz The Eternal Noxium Imperium 21	Posted - 2015.12.20 04:51:00 - [4] - Quote I see your point and I feel a good solution would be to lower Militia gear's bonus and PG/CPU. Similar to how Militia weapons have a lower clip size or longer reload time with weapons like the plasma cannon, perhaps armor plates reduce movement speed even more or the damage bonus is reduced by 1%. Allow the Newbros to fit the items they want and allow them to experiment and develop their build; while maintaining a clear ladder. Progression system neeeeeeeds more info. I was confused about what they wanted me to do and I have been playing this game since beta. Committed suicide....again...
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2015.12.21 19:01:00 - [5] - Quote Quote: Helping newbros: buffing STD/ADV Module Maths: Google Doc Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2015.12.22 02:04:00 - [6] - Quote Got distracted :-) To elaborate a bit, PRO weapons are roughly 5% stronger than ADV, which are roughly 5% stronger than STD. Dropsuit Modules, by contrast, follow an altogether different performance progression, with PRO often being exponentially stronger than STD. "But ... but ... but weapons are different because TTK!", screams the Chucklehead. Perhaps weapons are different, Mr Chucklehead, but do HP Modules not also directly impact TTK? Does it make sense that STD Ferroscale plates pay less than half the yield of their PRO equivalents? And the more PRO plates you stack on your PRO suit, the greater the TTK disparity between you and those poor sods stuck in STD gear. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 578	Posted - 2015.12.23 00:19:00 - [7] - Quote You are correct Nothi...the scaling on modules and equipment is extremely steep, even weapons with their +5% damage per tier (for anti infantry weapons only) can be considered too much. Module scaling and fitting power both need to be addressed. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
GeorgeN76 Eden Claims Corp 1	Posted - 2015.12.25 17:50:00 - [8] - Quote +1 for the op An excellent idea This is sorely needed for npe and me, lol I enjoy ruining a proto stompers day with militia and apex. Scouts and Swarms New Edens Pawn Shop
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 7	Posted - 2015.12.29 02:02:00 - [9] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Got distracted :-) To elaborate a bit, PRO weapons are roughly 5% stronger than ADV, which are roughly 5% stronger than STD. A logical and sensible progression. Dropsuit Modules, by contrast, follow an altogether different progression, with PRO Modules in numerous instances being many times stronger than STD. "But ... but ... but weapons are different because TTK!", screams Mr Chucklehead. Perhaps weapons are different, but don't HP Modules also affect TTK? If TTK is of concern, shouldn't it concern us that STD Ferroscale plates (for instance) have less than half the ouptut as PRO ferroscale? And that's on a per-module basis! The more PRO HP Modules a player stacks, the greater the TTK disparity between that player and those poor sods running STD gear. Massive performance disparity between tiers of guns doesn't make sense. How does it make sense with tiers of gear? If for no other reason, narrowing the performance gap between STD, ADV and PRO Modules would absolutely improve NPE. It'd also shakeup the status quo and lessen vet perks, which unfortunately is precisely why I'd expect folks to oppose the change ... "Yes! Improve NPE ASAP! But don't touch my vet perks." The vehicle modules are even more messed up lol I think taking a hard look at the progression between tiers is a great idea. If anything, at least make it more consistent. "That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
benandjerrys WarRavens Imperium Eden 1	Posted - 2015.12.29 02:20:00 - [10] - Quote Mind you more slots = the ability to put cpu & pg upgrades which does help. Regardless of that I still agree with the OP. Free isk! (comment with in game name) #portdust514

DIinkelFritz The Eternal Noxium Imperium 25	Posted - 2015.12.29 03:52:00 - [11] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Got distracted :-) To elaborate a bit, PRO weapons are roughly 5% stronger than ADV, which are roughly 5% stronger than STD. A logical and sensible progression. Dropsuit Modules, by contrast, follow an altogether different progression, with PRO Modules in numerous instances being many times stronger than STD. "But ... but ... but weapons are different because TTK!", screams Mr Chucklehead. Perhaps weapons are different, but don't HP Modules also affect TTK? If TTK is of concern, shouldn't it concern us that STD Ferroscale plates (for instance) have less than half the ouptut as PRO ferroscale? And that's on a per-module basis! The more PRO HP Modules a player stacks, the greater the TTK disparity between that player and those poor sods running STD gear. Massive performance disparity between tiers of guns doesn't make sense. How does it make sense with tiers of gear? If for no other reason, narrowing the performance gap between STD, ADV and PRO Modules would absolutely improve NPE. It'd also shakeup the status quo and lessen vet perks, which unfortunately is precisely why I'd expect folks to oppose the change ... "Yes! Improve NPE ASAP! But don't touch my vet perks." The vehicle modules are even more messed up lol I think taking a hard look at the progression between tiers is a great idea. If anything, at least make it more consistent. I agree. I review and modify my dropsuit fittings regularly, and I notice a change in the dps for the level of weapon I use, but it is manageable. However, I would lower my weapon from PRO down to basic if it means I can change a basic modules to enhanced. The difference between modules is rather high, especially when you factor in skill bonuses. A standard armor plate user gets 85 hp. A complex Armor plate with the skills to match is worth 2.5x more hp. (135x (25% + 10%)~180hp. I don't want Comlex to be lowered, I would rather basic and enhanced gear buffed. Committed suicide....again... Portdust514 #Port my Dick
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2015.12.29 19:54:00 - [12] - Quote DIinkelFritz wrote: .... I don't want Comlex to be lowered, I would rather basic and enhanced gear buffed. That's precisely what's proposed here: Google Doc: Narrowing the Power Gap Includes maths for a handful of different approaches to narrowing the gap between STD, ADV and PRO dropsuit modules. Any one these would make more sense than present progressions. Any one of these would immediately improve NPE. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2016.01.06 18:55:00 - [13] - Quote Bump Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Mars Tyr Rawdy Horde 0	Posted - 2016.01.06 22:03:00 - [14] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: One thing we desperately need is new player retention. And one of the chief reasons players don't stay is their inability to compete. And a big reason for that is fitting space. The change to make all tiers of suit have the same fitting space was a good step in the right direction, but we failed to also increase CPU/PG when we did so. But originally, the suit CPU/PG allotment was designed around the lower slot count. Standard had way less fitting than proto because standard had way less slots. So now new players can't even utilize those extra slots because they simply don't have the fitting space. I did a random sampling of about 10 different suit types across all types and races, and I found that standard had ~47% of the fitting proto does. That is insane. I mean look at this: here is a completely militia fit suit, a fit a new player might use. Notice how its over its PG/CPU allotment? That's on a character with max skills in everything. Max CPU/pG increase, max weapon PG/CPU reduction (both main and sidearm) max light damage mod reduction; every single fitting skill is maxed out, and we still cannot fit everything. If a maxed out player can't do it, how is a newbro supposed to compete? What we need to do is massively buff the CPU/PG of all tiers of suit save for proto. Proto is in a good spot fitting wise, so we should keep it the same. What we need to do is buff militia, standard, and advanced fitting space to be closer to proto's fitting allotment. Assuming numbers are MLT/STD/ADV, I am tentatively thinking of a 55%/60%/80% of the proto version's fitting space. This will give a massive buff to lower tier suits, which helps newbros. And they need all the help they can get at this point. I can draw up a spreadsheet with exact numbers, but since that would take a long time I'm going to wait to see if this idea catches on before spending time on it. While I agree with what you're saying that we need to buff the cpu/pg of the low end suits, I disagree that this is the biggest hurdle facing newer players TBH the bigger problem is the absurdity in gear which they will be facing. I'm putting a new thread together discussing it.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 597	Posted - 2016.01.07 02:57:00 - [15] - Quote Mars Tyr wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: One thing we desperately need is new player retention. And one of the chief reasons players don't stay is their inability to compete. And a big reason for that is fitting space. The change to make all tiers of suit have the same fitting space was a good step in the right direction, but we failed to also increase CPU/PG when we did so. But originally, the suit CPU/PG allotment was designed around the lower slot count. Standard had way less fitting than proto because standard had way less slots. So now new players can't even utilize those extra slots because they simply don't have the fitting space. I did a random sampling of about 10 different suit types across all types and races, and I found that standard had ~47% of the fitting proto does. That is insane. I mean look at this: here is a completely militia fit suit, a fit a new player might use. Notice how its over its PG/CPU allotment? That's on a character with max skills in everything. Max CPU/pG increase, max weapon PG/CPU reduction (both main and sidearm) max light damage mod reduction; every single fitting skill is maxed out, and we still cannot fit everything. If a maxed out player can't do it, how is a newbro supposed to compete? What we need to do is massively buff the CPU/PG of all tiers of suit save for proto. Proto is in a good spot fitting wise, so we should keep it the same. What we need to do is buff militia, standard, and advanced fitting space to be closer to proto's fitting allotment. Assuming numbers are MLT/STD/ADV, I am tentatively thinking of a 55%/60%/80% of the proto version's fitting space. This will give a massive buff to lower tier suits, which helps newbros. And they need all the help they can get at this point. I can draw up a spreadsheet with exact numbers, but since that would take a long time I'm going to wait to see if this idea catches on before spending time on it. While I agree with what you're saying that we need to buff the cpu/pg of the low end suits, I disagree that this is the biggest hurdle facing newer players TBH the bigger problem is the absurdity in gear which they will be facing. I'm putting a new thread together discussing it. Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 03:42:00 - [16] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) ^ Dropsuit Usage Rates
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2016.01.07 03:46:00 - [17] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) ^ Although I do suspect that it is part of the reason Assaults are over performing, given that they have a significant slot advantage. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 600	Posted - 2016.01.07 06:11:00 - [18] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) ^ Although I do suspect that it is part of the reason Assaults are over performing, given that they have a significant slot advantage. 8 H/L (Medium Suits) vs 6 H/L (Light Suits) vs 5 H/L (Heavy Suits)...might be onto something there...Particularly the "Tech 2" specialized medium frames (Assault/Logi) have a huge amount of versatility for specialized suits (although, that isn't necessarily a bad thing). Although the thought of a Commando/Sentinel Suit with 8 slots is fairly terrifying (Typically it seems as though the stats where designed with the lower slot count in mind, but it does mean that medium frames retain a higher degree of versatility to their Lighter or Heavier Counterparts). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 14:15:00 - [19] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) ^ Although I do suspect that it is part of the reason Assaults are over performing, given that they have a significant slot advantage. 8 H/L (Medium Suits) vs 6 H/L (Light Suits) vs 5 H/L (Heavy Suits)...might be onto something there...Particularly the "Tech 2" specialized medium frames (Assault/Logi) have a huge amount of versatility for specialized suits (although, that isn't necessarily a bad thing). Although the thought of a Commando/Sentinel Suit with 8 slots is fairly terrifying (Typically it seems as though the stats where designed with the lower slot count in mind, but it does mean that medium frames retain a higher degree of versatility to their Lighter or Heavier Counterparts). INB4 "working as intended". While I agree that MedFrames should be the most versatile units, there are different degrees of most versatile and not all degrees are reasonable. There's a big difference between being (A) the most wealthy guy in a room full of random rich guys and (B) Bill Gates in a room full of random rich guys. Dropsuit Usage Rates
maybe deadcatz Serris Inc 2	Posted - 2016.01.07 17:05:00 - [20] - Quote This is good. Newbros can fit more things properly. Helps reduce the gimp factor between mlt,std,adv,pro,exp,and officer. Though that's still too many tiers. Proto isn't that hard to combat in low tier suit if you have prior knowledge and skill points in the area of item you are using. But it becomes a near impossible challenge to kill proto with milita unless you one hit them with say a milita forge gun. Running around on my alt a while ago who is purely caldari,I noticed how pitiful my sheilds were in comparison to other people. And due to the lack of points in engineering or other benficial things my suits would lack in pg/CPU so badly I was forced to leave slots empty in order to do anything. Ha!You can't kill me! I'm already dead!

Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2016.01.07 19:46:00 - [21] - Quote Mars Tyr wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: One thing we desperately need is new player retention. And one of the chief reasons players don't stay is their inability to compete. And a big reason for that is fitting space. The change to make all tiers of suit have the same fitting space was a good step in the right direction, but we failed to also increase CPU/PG when we did so. But originally, the suit CPU/PG allotment was designed around the lower slot count. Standard had way less fitting than proto because standard had way less slots. So now new players can't even utilize those extra slots because they simply don't have the fitting space. I did a random sampling of about 10 different suit types across all types and races, and I found that standard had ~47% of the fitting proto does. That is insane. I mean look at this: here is a completely militia fit suit, a fit a new player might use. Notice how its over its PG/CPU allotment? That's on a character with max skills in everything. Max CPU/pG increase, max weapon PG/CPU reduction (both main and sidearm) max light damage mod reduction; every single fitting skill is maxed out, and we still cannot fit everything. If a maxed out player can't do it, how is a newbro supposed to compete? What we need to do is massively buff the CPU/PG of all tiers of suit save for proto. Proto is in a good spot fitting wise, so we should keep it the same. What we need to do is buff militia, standard, and advanced fitting space to be closer to proto's fitting allotment. Assuming numbers are MLT/STD/ADV, I am tentatively thinking of a 55%/60%/80% of the proto version's fitting space. This will give a massive buff to lower tier suits, which helps newbros. And they need all the help they can get at this point. I can draw up a spreadsheet with exact numbers, but since that would take a long time I'm going to wait to see if this idea catches on before spending time on it. While I agree with what you're saying that we need to buff the cpu/pg of the low end suits, I disagree that this is the biggest hurdle facing newer players TBH the bigger problem is the absurdity in gear which they will be facing. I'm putting a new thread together discussing it. Even if we buff gear, it won't mean anything if newbros can't fit it. Buffing fitting helps them now, and it helps them after we buff the mods. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 20:24:00 - [22] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) ^ Although I do suspect that it is part of the reason Assaults are over performing, given that they have a significant slot advantage. 8 H/L (Medium Suits) vs 6 H/L (Light Suits) vs 5 H/L (Heavy Suits)...might be onto something there...Particularly the "Tech 2" specialized medium frames (Assault/Logi) have a huge amount of versatility for specialized suits (although, that isn't necessarily a bad thing). Although the thought of a Commando/Sentinel Suit with 8 slots is fairly terrifying (Typically it seems as though the stats where designed with the lower slot count in mind, but it does mean that medium frames retain a higher degree of versatility to their Lighter or Heavier Counterparts). As an aside, "more module slots" also means that module buffs are not felt equally. The more module slots available to a unit, the more that unit stands to benefit from buffs to a given module buff. This point is of particular concern when buffing module which can be stacked without diminishing returns. Not to say that modules shouldn't be buffed, rather, that we should take into account potential impact on interclass balance when doing so. "Let's buff shield extenders", for instance, may seem an obvious and reasonable means by which to bring shields up-to-speed with armor. It may be, but it will also worsen interclass balance, as MedFrames stand to benefit from the buff moreso than Heavies and Lights, which places MedFrames even further ahead of the pack. Buffing MedFrame base shield stats (i.e. recovery and delay) and then buffing shield extenders -- which appears to be the path taken -- well, that will be even worse for interclass balance. The same caveat applies to NPE. Given the current module progression, buffing a given module will benefit those running PRO tier by substantially greater degree than those running STD. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 20:39:00 - [23] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Mars Tyr wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: One thing we desperately need is new player retention. And one of the chief reasons players don't stay is their inability to compete. And a big reason for that is fitting space. The change to make all tiers of suit have the same fitting space was a good step in the right direction, but we failed to also increase CPU/PG when we did so. But originally, the suit CPU/PG allotment was designed around the lower slot count. Standard had way less fitting than proto because standard had way less slots. So now new players can't even utilize those extra slots because they simply don't have the fitting space. I did a random sampling of about 10 different suit types across all types and races, and I found that standard had ~47% of the fitting proto does. That is insane. I mean look at this: here is a completely militia fit suit, a fit a new player might use. Notice how its over its PG/CPU allotment? That's on a character with max skills in everything. Max CPU/pG increase, max weapon PG/CPU reduction (both main and sidearm) max light damage mod reduction; every single fitting skill is maxed out, and we still cannot fit everything. If a maxed out player can't do it, how is a newbro supposed to compete? What we need to do is massively buff the CPU/PG of all tiers of suit save for proto. Proto is in a good spot fitting wise, so we should keep it the same. What we need to do is buff militia, standard, and advanced fitting space to be closer to proto's fitting allotment. Assuming numbers are MLT/STD/ADV, I am tentatively thinking of a 55%/60%/80% of the proto version's fitting space. This will give a massive buff to lower tier suits, which helps newbros. And they need all the help they can get at this point. I can draw up a spreadsheet with exact numbers, but since that would take a long time I'm going to wait to see if this idea catches on before spending time on it. While I agree with what you're saying that we need to buff the cpu/pg of the low end suits, I disagree that this is the biggest hurdle facing newer players TBH the bigger problem is the absurdity in gear which they will be facing. I'm putting a new thread together discussing it. Even if we buff gear, it won't mean anything if newbros can't fit it. Buffing fitting helps them now, and it helps them after we buff the mods. Newbros run low-end gear. If CCPs buff low-end gear while holding high-end gear constant, newbros will absolutely benefit. Both directly and relatively. Not to say that adding PG/CPU to lower end suits wouldn't help newbros. Doing so would make it easier to fit higher end gear on lower end suits. That said, those running lower end gear on lower end suits would not benefit at all from additional PG/CPU. In fact, their relative performance may suffer, given that those who've unlocked higher end gear could fit it on lower end suits. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 600	Posted - 2016.01.07 21:13:00 - [24] - Quote Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 22:07:00 - [25] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is the Gallente Assault. As you can see from the pre-fit selections, one good way to run it is with A,B,C in its highs and X,Y,Z in its lows. Feel free to swap out the yellow, prefit modules with better modules of the same type or to create your own by experimenting with different options. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 602	Posted - 2016.01.07 22:24:00 - [26] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. Very Much WIP Spreadsheet Working on accounting for skill bonuses/fitting bonuses, so current fitting totals are on the very high end Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:15:00 - [27] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. If we do that, we will need to make militia versions of all mods. Reactive plates, ferroscale, everything. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:19:00 - [28] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. If we do that, we will need to make militia versions of all mods. Reactive plates, ferroscale, everything. Agreed. Might not be a bad idea to let newbros swap around yellows to encourage experimentation. Building your first custom fit would be alot easier. No need to understand/peruse skills, visit the market or worry about ISK. Just read the descriptions of different yellows that "fit" and try out whatever looks interesting. * Is like APEX, but not APEX as APEX modules are STD tier. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 604	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:20:00 - [29] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. If we do that, we will need to make militia versions of all mods. Reactive plates, ferroscale, everything. No problem with that, provided that they all follow a gods damned pattern for generating the statistics Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:22:00 - [30] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. If we do that, we will need to make militia versions of all mods. Reactive plates, ferroscale, everything. No problem with that, provided that they all follow a gods damned pattern for generating the statistics It'd be nice if that progression pattern were simplified and standardized across all module types. Kinda like weapons, where STD are 5% weaker than ADV, and ADV are 5% weaker than PRO. Emphasis on the method (not the 5%). Dropsuit Usage Rates

Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 604	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:24:00 - [31] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. If we do that, we will need to make militia versions of all mods. Reactive plates, ferroscale, everything. No problem with that, provided that they all follow a gods damned pattern for generating the statistics It'd be nice if that progression pattern were simplified and standardized across all module types. Kinda like weapons, where STD 5% weaker than ADV with are 5% weaker than PRO. Emphasis on the method (not the 5%). Agreed, (although that only holds true for the Majority of weapons, AV weapons are 10% per tier and Sniper Rifles are a few damage per tier...then a few hundred jumping up to officer) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:28:00 - [32] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Agreed, (although that only holds true for the Majority of weapons, AV weapons are 10% per tier and Sniper Rifles are a few damage per tier...then a few hundred jumping up to officer) All for making exceptions when and where necessary :-) Exceptions aside, a standardized progression makes more sense than what we have now. If such a thing is within reach, choosing a standardized progression with less extreme gaps between STD and PRO would really help with NPE. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Vicious Minotaur 3	Posted - 2016.01.08 01:13:00 - [33] - Quote Even given what has been already suggested (admittedly, I skimmed), I still question the game design reasons to keep Militia/Standard gear around. Why does this gear exist? Person A: "To let new players have cheap gear to experiment with!" Person B: "To have a cheap option available ~~for Jews~~ to thrifty individuals!" Person C: "To have more sense of progression from 'new player' to 'veteran'-status!" Person D: "To blah blah [insert other argument here] blah!" But how legitimate are those? Why do new players HAVE TO experiment with the worst gear in the game? Even if you improve it, it is still bad, and new players will still reach the point where they are going up against better equipped players, which is always going to be harder on them. And cheap gear? Why does the cheapest gear have to be THREE to FOUR whole teirs of power below the best? And progression? Why does progression work hand in hand with increase in power? I have more question than answers, and the above are more rhetorical than anything, but really, the biggest question I have is "how fun is running the worst gear in the game?" I know it ain't too fun. And that is what it comes down to, doesn't it? Does the low end gear have a good impact upon fun? I say no. How fun are these low end fits, and why are new players (and bad ones like me) relegated to them I remember back in Chromosome, where we had most chunks of gameplay occur in three tiers: Militia, Standard, and Advanced. Prototype was seldom seen. Militia and standard are mostly identical, so really most of my time in Chrome was fighting within only TWO teirs, and occasionally you'd have a sort of "Boss" battle, some baddie with glowing red eyes... Spooky. I could ramble on and on, but I don't see how Militia and Standard is good for DUST. Personally, I'd like for ADV become the "new" STD, Proto the new ADV, and officer the new Prototype. As for The "old" STD and MLT? They become the new bigfoot. I'd explain the simple BPO transition process, but nobody's gunna read this so blah blah, Minotaurs are sexy, blah. Minotaur Coroner I'll keep your corpse company! ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.08 02:37:00 - [34] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Even given what has been already suggested (admittedly, I skimmed), I still question the game design reasons to keep Militia/Standard gear around. Why does this gear exist? Person A: "To let new players have cheap gear to experiment with!" Person B: "To have a cheap option available ~~for Jews~~ to thrifty individuals!" Person C: "To have more sense of progression from 'new player' to 'veteran'-status!" Person D: "To blah blah [insert other argument here] blah!" But how legitimate are those? 1. Why do new players HAVE TO experiment with the worst gear in the game? Even if you improve it, it is still bad, and new players will still reach the point where they are going up against better equipped players, which is always going to be harder on them. 2. And cheap gear? Why does the cheapest gear have to be THREE to FOUR whole teirs of power below the best? And progression? Why does progression work hand in hand with increase in power? 3. I have more question than answers, and the above are more rhetorical than anything, but really, the biggest question I have is "how fun is running the worst gear in the game?" I know it ain't too fun. And that is what it comes down to, doesn't it? Does the low end gear have a good impact upon fun? I say no. How fun are these low end fits, and why are new players (and bad ones like me) relegated to them I remember back in Chromosome, where we had most chunks of gameplay occur in three tiers: Militia, Standard, and Advanced. Prototype was seldom seen. Militia and standard are mostly identical, so really most of my time in Chrome was fighting within only TWO teirs, and occasionally you'd have a sort of "Boss" battle, some baddie with glowing red eyes... Spooky. 4. I could ramble on and on, but I don't see how Militia and Standard is good for DUST. Personally, I'd like for ADV become the "new" STD, Proto the new ADV, and officer the new Prototype. As for The "old" STD and MLT? They become the new bigfoot. I'd explain the simple BPO transition process, but nobody's gunna read this so blah blah, Minotaurs are sexy, blah. 1. Because players have to start somewhere? "Progressing" from better to worse doesn't make much sense. And consider the inverse: let new players experiment with the best gear in the game ... that'd be interesting, but it isn't particularly intuitive. 2. It really shouldn't be. Jumps between tiers should be noticeable but slight. There really shouldn't be instances of PRO being 200% (or more) better than STD. 3. Running loadouts that are many times worse than what others are running is no good, but advancement is fun. Improvement, progress, return on investment, etc ... these are good feelings. 4. If the power gap between tiers was less pronounced, might your position may change? A two-tier system replaces progressive advancement (a little bit at a time) with a much less fulfilling "start here ... upgrade once ... k done". Dropsuit Usage Rates
Vicious Minotaur 3	Posted - 2016.01.08 04:05:00 - [35] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. Because players have to start somewhere? "Progressing" from better to worse doesn't make much sense. And consider the inverse: let new players experiment with the best gear in the game ... that'd be interesting, but it isn't particularly intuitive. 2. It really shouldn't be. Jumps between tiers should be noticeable but slight. There really shouldn't be instances of PRO being 200% or 300% better than STD. 3. Getting crushed b/c your loadout is many times worse than what others are running is no fun, but advancement is fun. Improvement, progress, return on investment, etc ... these are good feelings. And feeling a little progress alot of times is arguably more fun than feeling alot of progress just one time. 4. If the power gap between tiers was less pronounced, might your position may change? A two-tier system replaces steady, progressive advancement with a much less fulfilling "start here ... upgrade once ... k done". PS: Just in case you haven't read my earlier posts, I'm not at all arguing in defense of vet perks or maintaining the status quo. 1) Just for reference, in my idea of making Advanced the " lowest level " gear available to new players: If that were to happen, technically, the "new" gear would be the worst in the game, BUT I use the term "worst" in a different manner with emphasis on less tangible connotations. Militia and standard have a hard time standing on their own two legs. How viable is a MLT grade melee fit? Or a speed hack fit? Lowest level =/= worst (to me). And I in no way was asking for an inversed progression from good ---> bad. As I see it, right now progression is: Worst ----> Best In my mind, it should be: Average ----> Best But, this is really just splitting hairs... and semantics, and you know who likes semantics? A pedant. Nobody likes a pedant! 3) Progression is indeed fun, but too bad the main form of progression really is "Oooh! Now my gun is 5% better than it was last week!" The progression is mainly vertical. Lessening that verticality is good, no doubt, but it still is "Finally, now that I'm x% better with Myofibrils, melee fits are finally fun!" In most other games I play (Borderlands, Fallout, TES, other RPG/ish games) progression involves NEW things, not primarily becoming marginally better at the SAME thing. But, that is diverging a bit from the topic. And another thing about how Progression is in DUST: How much time is spent progressing from MLT->STD or from STD->ADV? How fun is it? For me, at least, most of the progression happens from ADV onward, due to how quick the first levels go. 4) I do indeed want the power gap lessened between tiers... But my qualm with it is: Why do we need FIVE tiers? Yes, you can lessen the power gap by making Militia and Standard suck less... But you could achieve the same results by simply removing a them. What does FIVE tiers do that THREE can't? Ultimately, what is the game design reason behind having FIVE? I see none, hence me preferring to remove tiers. And further: what hardware/performance effects are there with FIVE vs THREE? I don't know, but reducing the amount of tiers seems like it could free up some resources or something... But damn it Jim! I'm a Minotaur, not a programmer! And with regards to balancing gear vs dev time: which would be easier/faster, balancing FIVE tiers, or THREE? PS: typing with a tablet sucks and my hand is going numb from typing all this. Minotaur Coroner I'll keep your corpse company! ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 606	Posted - 2016.01.08 05:16:00 - [36] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. Because players have to start somewhere? "Progressing" from better to worse doesn't make much sense. And consider the inverse: let new players experiment with the best gear in the game ... that'd be interesting, but it isn't particularly intuitive. 2. It really shouldn't be. Jumps between tiers should be noticeable but slight. There really shouldn't be instances of PRO being 200% or 300% better than STD. 3. Getting crushed b/c your loadout is many times worse than what others are running is no fun, but advancement is fun. Improvement, progress, return on investment, etc ... these are good feelings. And feeling a little progress alot of times is arguably more fun than feeling alot of progress just one time. 4. If the power gap between tiers was less pronounced, might your position may change? A two-tier system replaces steady, progressive advancement with a much less fulfilling "start here ... upgrade once ... k done". PS: Just in case you haven't read my earlier posts, I'm not at all arguing in defense of vet perks or maintaining the status quo. 1) Just for reference, in my idea of making Advanced the " lowest level " gear available to new players: If that were to happen, technically, the "new" gear would be the worst in the game, BUT I use the term "worst" in a different manner with emphasis on less tangible connotations. Lowest level =/= worst (to me). And I in no way was asking for an inversed progression from good ---> bad. As I see it, right now progression is: Worst ----> Best In my mind, it should be: Average ----> Best But, this is really just splitting hairs... and semantics, and you know who likes semantics? A pedant. Nobody likes a pedant! 3) Progression is indeed fun, but too bad the main form of progression really is "Oooh! Now my gun is 5% better than it was last week!" The progression is mainly vertical. Lessening that verticality is good, no doubt, but it still is "Finally, now that I'm x% better with Myofibrils, melee fits are finally fun!" In most other games I play (Borderlands, Fallout, TES, other RPG/ish games) progression involves NEW things, not primarily becoming marginally better at the SAME thing. But, that is diverging a bit from the topic. And another thing about how Progression is in DUST: How much time is spent progressing from MLT->STD or from STD->ADV? How fun is it? For me, at least, most of the progression happens from ADV onward, due to how quick the first levels go. 4) I do indeed want the power gap lessened between tiers... But my qualm with it is: Why do we need FIVE tiers? Yes, you can lessen the power gap by making Militia and Standard suck less... But you could achieve the same results by simply removing a them. What does FIVE tiers do that THREE can't? Ultimately, what is the game design reason behind having FIVE? I see none, hence me preferring to remove tiers. And further: what hardware/performance effects are there with FIVE vs THREE? I don't know, but reducing the amount of tiers seems like it could free up some resources or something... But damn it Jim! I'm a Minotaur, not a programmer! And with regards to balancing gear vs dev time: which would be easier/faster, balancing FIVE tiers, or THREE? PS: typing with a tablet sucks and my hand is going numb from typing all this. Well...all you need are two points of balance and you can add a theoretically infinite number of tiers and have them be balanced provided they have the same percentage change between tiers. (So For instance +5% per tier we have with anti-infantry weapons, issues with weapon balance come from imbalance between the types, not the tiers). Also, I too really hate typing on tablet computers. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.08 05:51:00 - [37] - Quote @ Minotaur One benefit of having more steps over fewer is that "returns" are paid at a tighter interval. Players who are frequently rewarded for their progress will likely find the grind more bearable. The time required to move from start to finish might be the same in the end, but more steps means that the player can be paid rewards at more milestones along the way. Think back to your first grind for your first proto dropsuit. Remember leveling from 4 to 5? Such a painful grind. But by that point, you were invested in DUST so you stuck with it. You'd also been rewarded a few times for your progress to date, with incremental class bonuses paid at each Level and access to better suits granted at Levels 1 and 3. The hook was set. Say CCP did away with Levels 1, 2, 3 and 4. Instead, you grind against one big dropsuit SP bar which starts at Zero and ends with Max. No pats on the back or "level up" rewards along the way. Just one slow grind. Ewww. How many Newbros would walk before DUST had a chance to set its hooks? Plus, there'd be no performance curve at all. There'd be low level, and there'd be max level with no points in between. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Vicious Minotaur 3	Posted - 2016.01.08 08:43:00 - [38] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: True... I guess we could have, say 100 tiers... But at what cost? From what little I understood of the dev reaction to power cores and all that awesomeness... Assets, all of them have to be loaded into battle, taking resources. Rhetorical question: How much do modules take in Memory/RAM/Litres? Every single standard and Militia module, being loaded. Suits eat a lot, though, that much is certain... Sure, compared to textures and 3d models, not much... But even if we could theoretically have infinite tiers balanced via maths and two points, everything in the game needs to be assessed with a resource:benefit ratio. Not all those infinite points have a favorable ratio. So, do the ones we now have posses a favorable one? Only a Developer can really answers, but my gut says "no." (Or maybe it's something I ate, who knows) Adipem Nothi wrote: I don't necessarily disagree... It's just that I can't for the life of me see how either Militia or Standard can be considered worthwhile "steps." Every merc is born into militia gear, so to speak. How is it a step? You don't earn it. You don't step to it. No SP investment to get it. It just is there, being bad and cheap gear. It is designed to be stepped out of, if anything. And Standard? The first, easiest step. Pretty much the same statwise to Militia (yeah you could buff it). How much investment? Both time and SP? Basically nothing... Meh Perhaps I'm just bored of vertical progression being the only thing in each skill. With every skill and each "Step" you get to say "I'm now marginally better at doing the same thing!" I'm my head, filled with nonsense and aches, skills would work more like this: Minmatar Sentinel: Lvl 1 Basic Sentinel ( ADV stats) Lvl 3 Adv Sentinel (Proto stats) Lvl 5 Officer Sentinel Same as now, really. But what do you start at? You could easily make it so the Basic Sentinel in this example is more like an AUR one: no skills needed. But why SP into it at that point? Well, as is the case now, bonuses don't apply if you don't have the skill at 1+. If the bonus is worthwhile, now you've got a reason, and a step. Modules are easier. For these, well, I'll concede STD ones have to stay because there are only three tiers (for now, but officer ones'd be cool). Essentially, just delete Militia. But, again where do you start? Again, have an STD version that needs no skill investment, but does not provide the skill bonus to HP/CPU/PG/whatever. Getting that bonus then becomes the first step. Minotaur Coroner I'll keep your corpse company! ( -í° -£-û -í°)
DeathwindRising Second-Nature 1	Posted - 2016.01.08 12:30:00 - [39] - Quote yea... if you do that, you might as well just remove milita, standard, and advanced gear. whats the point in having them if theyre gonna be that close to each other? sounds like a great idea right? lets all just have proto stuff off the bat lol. hell lets just get rid of skills too while we're at and just have everything unlocked from the start. omg... how about we just give all suits infinite pg/cpu too? i say go for it. but if you do... change the name of the game to something else, and then go play that and leave dust 514 alone. the whole point of the tiers was to skill into them. if you make standard gear too close to proto then anyone with great skills can use the cheaper fits because they have better fitting skills. which was the problem with apex suits when they first came out. people with great skills could run proto gear on them while no one else could. in the end. you realize that the stuff we have is already balance fitting wise. you make them any closer to proto and no one would use proto suits
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 606	Posted - 2016.01.08 23:02:00 - [40] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: True... I guess we could have, say 100 tiers... But at what cost? From what little I understood of the dev reaction to power cores and all that awesomeness... Assets, all of them have to be loaded into battle, taking resources. Rhetorical question: How much do modules take in Memory/RAM/Litres? Every single standard and Militia module, being loaded. Suits eat a lot, though, that much is certain... Sure, compared to textures and 3d models, not much... But even if we could theoretically have infinite tiers balanced via maths and two points, everything in the game needs to be assessed with a resource:benefit ratio. Not all those infinite points have a favorable ratio. So, do the ones we now have posses a favorable one? Only a Developer can really answers, but my gut says "no." (Or maybe it's something I ate, who knows) Liters of RAM...an unusual measurement to be sure...well memory is short-term storage, and in most computers it stores things in terms of bits of information (0 or 1) at base level of the unit...so now all we have to figure out is how many bits of information you could store in a liter given the data density of the RAM used on the PS3... As far as my understanding performance from adding in just another number to the database isn't a major performance cost. I mean, sure you have the whole argument of the guardsman's lasgun...it may be worth diddly, but get a few hundred of them firing all at once, that's a whole lot of diddly, but even the devs have hinted that the power core concept to lower the number of models the game has wouldn't get the massive performance increase the community was expecting...I doubt that removal of 2 tiers of modules would do anything noticeable on a scale detectable by instruments...I could be wrong here though (also, I'm not supporting the addition of infinite tiers...that's a whole lot of diddly) Now onto the actual point of responding that isn't just messing around...the actual good question in terms of balance (the performance question is a good one)...short answer, yes there would be more preferable ratios of another...say we have a scale of 10% broken into 10 tiers, each tier adding 1% efficacy... What we have now in Anti-Infantry Weapons is actually pretty good...we have an increase of 10% in the regular tier equipment (officer and experimental fall outside of this...) spread across 3 tiers of efficacy increase, with 1 tier 0 that, for the most part, retains most of the efficacy of tier 1 0 - MLT 100% - Increased Fitting Cost, Lower Magazine Capacity where possible, Increased reload time, No Skill Required 1 - STD 100% - SP Requirement 2 - ADV 105% - Increased SP Requirement 3 - PRO 110% - Further Increased SP Requirement So...why does MLT exist? To give players a Non-Aur No Skill Variant to try out things at a cost of taking more fitting space on the suit, No Skill Variants or Reduced Skill Variants are part of DUST's monetiszation model (although to what degree they are purchased?) as well as the Skill Requirements (part of progression) being part of the monetization (through Boosters). As I've said before, by large-in-part Anti-Infantry weapons are in a good place with progression...I find myself using STD weapons more than PRO weapons lately anyway...and am only noticing a marginal drop in efficacy, but when I need a slight edge in battle (such as when going up against a team of good players in FW) I'll pull out the Prototype. Why should new players experiment with the worst versions of items? Well...because that's where progression begins...you start at the bottom rung and work your way up. With weapons, this works extremely well...it's the modules/Equipment where Nothi, Myself, and I'm pretty sure you have a problem. Unlike the small, smooth progression slope in anti-infantry weaponry, modules and equipment are more of a progression cliff...extreme examples have the PRO/Complex being 100-200% better than the STD/Basic, with ADV usually being much closer to STD than it is to PRO. What Nothi and I are advocating is, using Complex/PRO as the pivot, move STD to be much closer wherever possible, and move ADV to be as close to sitting exactly between them as possible. But that's us derailing the OP of the thread actually... What the OP was advocating (which I fully agree with)...is that STD and MLT suits should be able to fill their slots with MLT/STD modules WITHOUT the need of fitting mods OR high tier fitting skills...that's not to say that every possible combination of modules should work base, but if we intend these to be starting points, they need to be competitive even with the higher tier gear, and introduce the concept of filling your slots as well as the concepts of maximizing fitting potential. CCP just gave them a whole bunch of slots, they should be able to use them. As for your idea of removing STD and MLT altogether and just having ADV/PRO with EXP/Officer thrown in as tier 3...well take look at Nothi's spreadsheet with proposed module values...it's not too far off from what you are suggesting, just with an intermediate tier about half way between the two @Deathwind: Your Last sentence is kind of the point actually...Prototype equipment is supposed to be for escalation of conflict, not the Go To choice...basically yeah, we want to lower the number of situations wherein Prototype equipment is an insurmountable barrier to those using lower tier equipment. (And Yes...all this should apply equally to Dropsuits and Vehicles) @Vicious Minotaur: Also...something I'm curious about Minotaur...why "Maths"...Mathematics isn't a plural word, it's a singular that happens to end in an "s"...a shortened version shouldn't need to append the "S" from the end of the first word, unless the word where actually plural, which it isn't??? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC

Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 610	Posted - 2016.01.12 05:43:00 - [41] - Quote bump Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Minty Essence DUST University Ivy League 12	Posted - 2016.01.12 16:58:00 - [42] - Quote I support this product and/or service. In all seriousness, great ideas here - the Militia/Standard/Advanced suits/modules are far too weak to even compare to the performance and fitting of the Proto/Officer equipment. Flattening out the curve of power would improve the game for newberries and make Protostomping less worth it. After all, you should be paying a lot more for tiny gains when you get to the top end stuff as you do in EVE, as it's not about how small the gain is per module, but the overall buff you get from fitting all the modules.
Kierkegaard Soren Eridani Light Horse Battalion 1	Posted - 2016.01.13 16:46:00 - [43] - Quote If you want to bring newbros into the game and keep them then you're going to have to give them suits and gear that is broadly competitive even when it's challenged by top-tier proto fits. Which is to say, we need to shrink the massive HP and DPS disparity that's caused by skill trees that passively buff the base stats of tiered gear that gets better the more skill points you pump into it. PRO needs to keep its edge, of course, but nothing short of a forge gun to the chest will stop a proto vet if you're not challenging him or her in similar-tiered gear. My suggestion? Change Basic class suits so that they buff militia and STD tier gear efficiency. All modules and weapons. The origonal commando had a similar skill, and it would have worked had they been bolder with the percentages. Newbros have very few skill points to play with in their early to mid-careers, so giving them a suit that increases the strength of any lower-tier module that they equip means that they can specialize into a role relatively early on and still compete or, better yet, be effective. Which in turn earns them more WP, SP and ISK, allowing them to progress to better tiers faster. The idea, to my mind, is that the majority of the playerbase can comfortably afford to fit, use and afford ADV gear and suits once they've accumlated around 8 to 10 mil SP, but until that time you can still enjoy the game and be good at it even when you're operating within the lowest meta band. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."
RedBleach LeSanglant Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 894	Posted - 2016.01.16 01:45:00 - [44] - Quote I fully support this idea. The disparity is to great a divide between players and the gear (modules, EQ). I would like some CPM attention on this, even if it is to say that they are working on it. Especially since all these changes are server side and therefore much more manageable. I'll take another look at the documents presented here to double check the numbers, but I like it so far - and well done; CCP likes to have the ideas already hammered out before the presentation to allow for an easy slip into a hotfix. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
RedBleach LeSanglant Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 896	Posted - 2016.01.21 21:48:00 - [45] - Quote Taking a second look I still support the idea, but I feel that the gap is still too great. 50% difference is a huge percentage, even though on some modules we are looking at small numbers. Any thoughts on a 40/20 or 30/15? I guess I see it more in the view that each tier should offer a small advantage, not a full 50% from the STD... but maybe it is just my mind latching on to the percentage more than the actual number increases. I thought a second look would be good enough but it may require a third. ... after moving past the % I prefer the 50/30, without further discussion about actually adjusting each particular module for "reasons"- but just the current power differences. To match the pricing structure to performance a bit better I like the 50/30 or even a 50/35. Simply because I think this is what we see most often in the tech markets. Video cards, for example, a basic one will work ($300 for a GTX780). The next step up will get you a whole lot more - like the commonly purchased gamer video card ($600 GTX970). But the Premium will be a hell of alot more expensive but only offer a small increase in performance ($1200+ GTX Titan Z). You can see the same with cell phones and cars... only the specialists, technophiles, and those with the finances to purchase the new and the best do, the masses wait for the STD and the hobbyists get the ADV. This could also lead to more use of ADV gear... something CCP has been wanting to see. Less Pro or STD but a useful shift in module use. Though all the data is easily clouded by the ISK imbalances - but that is another topic altogether. I did not see any adjustments to to the CPU/PG that was hinted at... that may be another topic. Nevermind. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 422	Posted - 2016.01.21 21:55:00 - [46] - Quote Check out the link in my sig for the numbers on this topic. Something is killing new player retention.
RedBleach LeSanglant Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 898	Posted - 2016.01.22 02:32:00 - [47] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: Check out the link in my sig for the numbers on this topic. 0.0 That thread was quite a read. 30/20 it is. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 692	Posted - 2016.01.30 15:10:00 - [48] - Quote It will be tough to pin down an effective ratio to work with, when you're dealing with the low TTK of a shooter... The difference between tiers needs to be large enough to notice, but not so large as to invalidate the other choices. At the same time, a proto module can't be so large that it breaks the feel of the game... It might be interesting to look at the range, median, and mean of weapon dps figures to determine how many additional seconds of life a plate provides, and work from there...determine the max time a plate should increase TTK by, determine a minimally acceptable TTK increase, subtract once for ADV twice for STD... For sake of argument, let's say a maximum TTK increase from a plate was 2s, and a minimally acceptable increase was .25s, under this the STD plate would increase TTK by 1.5s, ADV by 1.75, and PRO by 2. There are other methods to go about balancing things than percentages, percentages just lend themselves well to being easy to compare across disparate categories. Non-percentage is fine, provided the methodology Akers sense, and is used consistently for all modules of a given type (in the example given, HP modules should be balanced similarly). As for the SP gap...questions there are a bit harder to answer...Module efficacy increases are difficult to examine, or balance properly when combined with tiered modules...Module efficiency on the other hand is easier to work with (where the skill modifies fitting cost) in a tiered module system. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
RedBleach LeSanglant Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 909	Posted - 2016.01.30 23:13:00 - [49] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: It will be tough to pin down an effective ratio to work with, when you're dealing with the low TTK of a shooter... The difference between tiers needs to be large enough to notice, but not so large as to invalidate the other choices. At the same time, a proto module can't be so large that it breaks the feel of the game... It might be interesting to look at the range, median, and mean of weapon dps figures to determine how many additional seconds of life a plate provides, and work from there...determine the max time a plate should increase TTK by, determine a minimally acceptable TTK increase, subtract once for ADV twice for STD... For sake of argument, let's say a maximum TTK increase from a plate was 2s, and a minimally acceptable increase was .25s, under this the STD plate would increase TTK by 1.5s, ADV by 1.75, and PRO by 2. There are other methods to go about balancing things than percentages, percentages just lend themselves well to being easy to compare across disparate categories. Non-percentage is fine, provided the methodology Akers sense, and is used consistently for all modules of a given type (in the example given, HP modules should be balanced similarly). As for the SP gap...questions there are a bit harder to answer...Module efficacy increases are difficult to examine, or balance properly when combined with tiered modules...Module efficiency on the other hand is easier to work with (where the skill modifies fitting cost) in a tiered module system. Good points, all. While it is not my intention to invalidate the work that has gone before by Apediem Nothi and others with the spread sheets I believe that there is not a quick and easy ratio that will work across the board. I agree with your comment about finding the points of increase where there is noticeable difference or advantage and that each type should be adjusted in its own bracket. The ratio that worked for shields may not work for the scanning modules or vice versa because the jumps may be too insignificant or to great... ALL of that to say that I agree - but I don't have the time to work this out right now. :( I like the idea of reworking the skill tree, bigger advantages up front. Perhaps even compressing the benefits from a 25% total to a 10 or 15% for some of the skills that increase HP (efficiency and base) - and maybe damage. Look at a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1% benefit for each efficiency so that the newbro would see an immediate jump in the first few levels, and then really have to grind to max out the skill just as everyone does. As was stated before, narrowing that gap would make it easier to rework the module gap as the SP disparity directly affects the HP disparity. Smaller jumps, compressing the power gap. That may be enough to start solidifying the new players is staying for the 2 week mark where they become lifers. The Logi Code. Quiet Ally to CPM2
Thaddeus Reynolds Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 724	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:24:00 - [50] - Quote This thread is something I believe should be considered when designing the 2.0 if tiered progression is kept. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.02.17 14:06:00 - [51] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: This thread is something I believe should be considered when designing the 2.0 if tiered progression is kept. Agreed! Hoping that super duper Vet Perks are counted among the "Hard Lessons Learned" when designing DUST 2. The Chuckleheads will no doubt moan, but better NPE is well worth the butthurt. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 547	Posted - 2016.02.17 22:25:00 - [52] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Look at a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1% benefit for each efficiency so that the newbro would see an immediate jump in the first few levels, and then really have to grind to max out the skill just as everyone does. Just so we're clear, for say the Shield Extender skill it would give: +5% module efficacy at LVL 1 +4% module efficacy at LVL 2 +3% module efficacy at LVL 3 +2% module efficacy at LVL 4 +1% module efficacy at LVL 5 If so, I really think this is a great idea. Something is killing new player retention.
RedBleach LeSanglant Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 928	Posted - 2016.02.26 00:59:00 - [53] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Look at a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1% benefit for each efficiency so that the newbro would see an immediate jump in the first few levels, and then really have to grind to max out the skill just as everyone does. Just so we're clear, for say the Shield Extender skill it would give: +5% module efficacy at LVL 1 +4% module efficacy at LVL 2 +3% module efficacy at LVL 3 +2% module efficacy at LVL 4 +1% module efficacy at LVL 5 If so, I really think this is a great idea. Thanks :) Sorry for the late reply, worked has kicked my butt. The Logi Code. Quiet Ally to CPM2


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