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Helping newbros: buffing STD/ADV

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Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 574	Posted - 2015.12.18 18:17:00 - [1] - Quote An altrenative would be to generate an amount of fitting per slot type at each tier (similar to what was done with vehicels when they started the whole same slot layout at different tiers), and generate new fitting statistics based off of that. Either way would work, and I generally support anything that makes STD/ADV gear more competitive overall Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 578	Posted - 2015.12.23 00:19:00 - [2] - Quote You are correct Nothi...the scaling on modules and equipment is extremely steep, even weapons with their +5% damage per tier (for anti infantry weapons only) can be considered too much. Module scaling and fitting power both need to be addressed. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 597	Posted - 2016.01.07 02:57:00 - [3] - Quote Mars Tyr wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: One thing we desperately need is new player retention. And one of the chief reasons players don't stay is their inability to compete. And a big reason for that is fitting space. The change to make all tiers of suit have the same fitting space was a good step in the right direction, but we failed to also increase CPU/PG when we did so. But originally, the suit CPU/PG allotment was designed around the lower slot count. Standard had way less fitting than proto because standard had way less slots. So now new players can't even utilize those extra slots because they simply don't have the fitting space. I did a random sampling of about 10 different suit types across all types and races, and I found that standard had ~47% of the fitting proto does. That is insane. I mean look at this: here is a completely militia fit suit, a fit a new player might use. Notice how its over its PG/CPU allotment? That's on a character with max skills in everything. Max CPU/pG increase, max weapon PG/CPU reduction (both main and sidearm) max light damage mod reduction; every single fitting skill is maxed out, and we still cannot fit everything. If a maxed out player can't do it, how is a newbro supposed to compete? What we need to do is massively buff the CPU/PG of all tiers of suit save for proto. Proto is in a good spot fitting wise, so we should keep it the same. What we need to do is buff militia, standard, and advanced fitting space to be closer to proto's fitting allotment. Assuming numbers are MLT/STD/ADV, I am tentatively thinking of a 55%/60%/80% of the proto version's fitting space. This will give a massive buff to lower tier suits, which helps newbros. And they need all the help they can get at this point. I can draw up a spreadsheet with exact numbers, but since that would take a long time I'm going to wait to see if this idea catches on before spending time on it. While I agree with what you're saying that we need to buff the cpu/pg of the low end suits, I disagree that this is the biggest hurdle facing newer players TBH the bigger problem is the absurdity in gear which they will be facing. I'm putting a new thread together discussing it. Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 600	Posted - 2016.01.07 06:11:00 - [4] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) ^ Although I do suspect that it is part of the reason Assaults are over performing, given that they have a significant slot advantage. 8 H/L (Medium Suits) vs 6 H/L (Light Suits) vs 5 H/L (Heavy Suits)...might be onto something there...Particularly the "Tech 2" specialized medium frames (Assault/Logi) have a huge amount of versatility for specialized suits (although, that isn't necessarily a bad thing). Although the thought of a Commando/Sentinel Suit with 8 slots is fairly terrifying (Typically it seems as though the stats where designed with the lower slot count in mind, but it does mean that medium frames retain a higher degree of versatility to their Lighter or Heavier Counterparts). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 600	Posted - 2016.01.07 21:13:00 - [5] - Quote Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 602	Posted - 2016.01.07 22:24:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. Very Much WIP Spreadsheet Working on accounting for skill bonuses/fitting bonuses, so current fitting totals are on the very high end Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 604	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:20:00 - [7] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. If we do that, we will need to make militia versions of all mods. Reactive plates, ferroscale, everything. No problem with that, provided that they all follow a gods damned pattern for generating the statistics Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 604	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:24:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. If we do that, we will need to make militia versions of all mods. Reactive plates, ferroscale, everything. No problem with that, provided that they all follow a gods damned pattern for generating the statistics It'd be nice if that progression pattern were simplified and standardized across all module types. Kinda like weapons, where STD 5% weaker than ADV with are 5% weaker than PRO. Emphasis on the method (not the 5%). Agreed, (although that only holds true for the Majority of weapons, AV weapons are 10% per tier and Sniper Rifles are a few damage per tier...then a few hundred jumping up to officer) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 606	Posted - 2016.01.08 05:16:00 - [9] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. Because players have to start somewhere? "Progressing" from better to worse doesn't make much sense. And consider the inverse: let new players experiment with the best gear in the game ... that'd be interesting, but it isn't particularly intuitive. 2. It really shouldn't be. Jumps between tiers should be noticeable but slight. There really shouldn't be instances of PRO being 200% or 300% better than STD. 3. Getting crushed b/c your loadout is many times worse than what others are running is no fun, but advancement is fun. Improvement, progress, return on investment, etc ... these are good feelings. And feeling a little progress alot of times is arguably more fun than feeling alot of progress just one time. 4. If the power gap between tiers was less pronounced, might your position may change? A two-tier system replaces steady, progressive advancement with a much less fulfilling "start here ... upgrade once ... k done". PS: Just in case you haven't read my earlier posts, I'm not at all arguing in defense of vet perks or maintaining the status quo. 1) Just for reference, in my idea of making Advanced the " lowest level " gear available to new players: If that were to happen, technically, the "new" gear would be the worst in the game, BUT I use the term "worst" in a different manner with emphasis on less tangible connotations. Lowest level =/= worst (to me). And I in no way was asking for an inversed progression from good ---> bad. As I see it, right now progression is: Worst ----> Best In my mind, it should be: Average ----> Best But, this is really just splitting hairs... and semantics, and you know who likes semantics? A pedant. Nobody likes a pedant! 3) Progression is indeed fun, but too bad the main form of progression really is "Oooh! Now my gun is 5% better than it was last week!" The progression is mainly vertical. Lessening that verticality is good, no doubt, but it still is "Finally, now that I'm x% better with Myofibrils, melee fits are finally fun!" In most other games I play (Borderlands, Fallout, TES, other RPG/ish games) progression involves NEW things, not primarily becoming marginally better at the SAME thing. But, that is diverging a bit from the topic. And another thing about how Progression is in DUST: How much time is spent progressing from MLT->STD or from STD->ADV? How fun is it? For me, at least, most of the progression happens from ADV onward, due to how quick the first levels go. 4) I do indeed want the power gap lessened between tiers... But my qualm with it is: Why do we need FIVE tiers? Yes, you can lessen the power gap by making Militia and Standard suck less... But you could achieve the same results by simply removing a them. What does FIVE tiers do that THREE can't? Ultimately, what is the game design reason behind having FIVE? I see none, hence me preferring to remove tiers. And further: what hardware/performance effects are there with FIVE vs THREE? I don't know, but reducing the amount of tiers seems like it could free up some resources or something... But damn it Jim! I'm a Minotaur, not a programmer! And with regards to balancing gear vs dev time: which would be easier/faster, balancing FIVE tiers, or THREE? PS: typing with a tablet sucks and my hand is going numb from typing all this. Well...all you need are two points of balance and you can add a theoretically infinite number of tiers and have them be balanced provided they have the same percentage change between tiers. (So For instance +5% per tier we have with anti-infantry weapons, issues with weapon balance come from imbalance between the types, not the tiers). Also, I too really hate typing on tablet computers. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 606	Posted - 2016.01.08 23:02:00 - [10] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: True... I guess we could have, say 100 tiers... But at what cost? From what little I understood of the dev reaction to power cores and all that awesomeness... Assets, all of them have to be loaded into battle, taking resources. Rhetorical question: How much do modules take in Memory/RAM/Litres? Every single standard and Militia module, being loaded. Suits eat a lot, though, that much is certain... Sure, compared to textures and 3d models, not much... But even if we could theoretically have infinite tiers balanced via maths and two points, everything in the game needs to be assessed with a resource:benefit ratio. Not all those infinite points have a favorable ratio. So, do the ones we now have posses a favorable one? Only a Developer can really answers, but my gut says "no." (Or maybe it's something I ate, who knows) Liters of RAM...an unusual measurement to be sure...well memory is short-term storage, and in most computers it stores things in terms of bits of information (0 or 1) at base level of the unit...so now all we have to figure out is how many bits of information you could store in a liter given the data density of the RAM used on the PS3... As far as my understanding performance from adding in just another number to the database isn't a major performance cost. I mean, sure you have the whole argument of the guardsman's lasgun...it may be worth diddly, but get a few hundred of them firing all at once, that's a whole lot of diddly, but even the devs have hinted that the power core concept to lower the number of models the game has wouldn't get the massive performance increase the community was expecting...I doubt that removal of 2 tiers of modules would do anything noticeable on a scale detectable by instruments...I could be wrong here though (also, I'm not supporting the addition of infinite tiers...that's a whole lot of diddly) Now onto the actual point of responding that isn't just messing around...the actual good question in terms of balance (the performance question is a good one)...short answer, yes there would be more preferable ratios of another...say we have a scale of 10% broken into 10 tiers, each tier adding 1% efficacy... What we have now in Anti-Infantry Weapons is actually pretty good...we have an increase of 10% in the regular tier equipment (officer and experimental fall outside of this...) spread across 3 tiers of efficacy increase, with 1 tier 0 that, for the most part, retains most of the efficacy of tier 1 0 - MLT 100% - Increased Fitting Cost, Lower Magazine Capacity where possible, Increased reload time, No Skill Required 1 - STD 100% - SP Requirement 2 - ADV 105% - Increased SP Requirement 3 - PRO 110% - Further Increased SP Requirement So...why does MLT exist? To give players a Non-Aur No Skill Variant to try out things at a cost of taking more fitting space on the suit, No Skill Variants or Reduced Skill Variants are part of DUST's monetiszation model (although to what degree they are purchased?) as well as the Skill Requirements (part of progression) being part of the monetization (through Boosters). As I've said before, by large-in-part Anti-Infantry weapons are in a good place with progression...I find myself using STD weapons more than PRO weapons lately anyway...and am only noticing a marginal drop in efficacy, but when I need a slight edge in battle (such as when going up against a team of good players in FW) I'll pull out the Prototype. Why should new players experiment with the worst versions of items? Well...because that's where progression begins...you start at the bottom rung and work your way up. With weapons, this works extremely well...it's the modules/Equipment where Nothi, Myself, and I'm pretty sure you have a problem. Unlike the small, smooth progression slope in anti-infantry weaponry, modules and equipment are more of a progression cliff...extreme examples have the PRO/Complex being 100-200% better than the STD/Basic, with ADV usually being much closer to STD than it is to PRO. What Nothi and I are advocating is, using Complex/PRO as the pivot, move STD to be much closer wherever possible, and move ADV to be as close to sitting exactly between them as possible. But that's us derailing the OP of the thread actually... What the OP was advocating (which I fully agree with)...is that STD and MLT suits should be able to fill their slots with MLT/STD modules WITHOUT the need of fitting mods OR high tier fitting skills...that's not to say that every possible combination of modules should work base, but if we intend these to be starting points, they need to be competitive even with the higher tier gear, and introduce the concept of filling your slots as well as the concepts of maximizing fitting potential. CCP just gave them a whole bunch of slots, they should be able to use them. As for your idea of removing STD and MLT altogether and just having ADV/PRO with EXP/Officer thrown in as tier 3...well take look at Nothi's spreadsheet with proposed module values...it's not too far off from what you are suggesting, just with an intermediate tier about half way between the two @Deathwind: Your Last sentence is kind of the point actually...Prototype equipment is supposed to be for escalation of conflict, not the Go To choice...basically yeah, we want to lower the number of situations wherein Prototype equipment is an insurmountable barrier to those using lower tier equipment. (And Yes...all this should apply equally to Dropsuits and Vehicles) @Vicious Minotaur: Also...something I'm curious about Minotaur...why "Maths"...Mathematics isn't a plural word, it's a singular that happens to end in an "s"...a shortened version shouldn't need to append the "S" from the end of the first word, unless the word where actually plural, which it isn't??? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC

Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 610	Posted - 2016.01.12 05:43:00 - [11] - Quote bump Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 692	Posted - 2016.01.30 15:10:00 - [12] - Quote It will be tough to pin down an effective ratio to work with, when you're dealing with the low TTK of a shooter... The difference between tiers needs to be large enough to notice, but not so large as to invalidate the other choices. At the same time, a proto module can't be so large that it breaks the feel of the game... It might be interesting to look at the range, median, and mean of weapon dps figures to determine how many additional seconds of life a plate provides, and work from there...determine the max time a plate should increase TTK by, determine a minimally acceptable TTK increase, subtract once for ADV twice for STD... For sake of argument, let's say a maximum TTK increase from a plate was 2s, and a minimally acceptable increase was .25s, under this the STD plate would increase TTK by 1.5s, ADV by 1.75, and PRO by 2. There are other methods to go about balancing things than percentages, percentages just lend themselves well to being easy to compare across disparate categories. Non-percentage is fine, provided the methodology Akers sense, and is used consistently for all modules of a given type (in the example given, HP modules should be balanced similarly). As for the SP gap...questions there are a bit harder to answer...Module efficacy increases are difficult to examine, or balance properly when combined with tiered modules...Module efficiency on the other hand is easier to work with (where the skill modifies fitting cost) in a tiered module system. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Thaddeus Reynolds Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 724	Posted - 2016.02.16 19:24:00 - [13] - Quote This thread is something I believe should be considered when designing the 2.0 if tiered progression is kept. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC

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