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Helping newbros: buffing STD/ADV

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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2015.12.21 19:01:00 - [1] - Quote Quote: Helping newbros: buffing STD/ADV Module Maths: Google Doc Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2015.12.22 02:04:00 - [2] - Quote Got distracted :-) To elaborate a bit, PRO weapons are roughly 5% stronger than ADV, which are roughly 5% stronger than STD. Dropsuit Modules, by contrast, follow an altogether different performance progression, with PRO often being exponentially stronger than STD. "But ... but ... but weapons are different because TTK!", screams the Chucklehead. Perhaps weapons are different, Mr Chucklehead, but do HP Modules not also directly impact TTK? Does it make sense that STD Ferroscale plates pay less than half the yield of their PRO equivalents? And the more PRO plates you stack on your PRO suit, the greater the TTK disparity between you and those poor sods stuck in STD gear. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2015.12.29 19:54:00 - [3] - Quote DIinkelFritz wrote: .... I don't want Comlex to be lowered, I would rather basic and enhanced gear buffed. That's precisely what's proposed here: Google Doc: Narrowing the Power Gap Includes maths for a handful of different approaches to narrowing the gap between STD, ADV and PRO dropsuit modules. Any one these would make more sense than present progressions. Any one of these would immediately improve NPE. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 03:42:00 - [4] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) ^ Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 14:15:00 - [5] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) ^ Although I do suspect that it is part of the reason Assaults are over performing, given that they have a significant slot advantage. 8 H/L (Medium Suits) vs 6 H/L (Light Suits) vs 5 H/L (Heavy Suits)...might be onto something there...Particularly the "Tech 2" specialized medium frames (Assault/Logi) have a huge amount of versatility for specialized suits (although, that isn't necessarily a bad thing). Although the thought of a Commando/Sentinel Suit with 8 slots is fairly terrifying (Typically it seems as though the stats where designed with the lower slot count in mind, but it does mean that medium frames retain a higher degree of versatility to their Lighter or Heavier Counterparts). INB4 "working as intended". While I agree that MedFrames should be the most versatile units, there are different degrees of most versatile and not all degrees are reasonable. There's a big difference between being (A) the most wealthy guy in a room full of random rich guys and (B) Bill Gates in a room full of random rich guys. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 20:24:00 - [6] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Modules Disparity is larger, which is amplified by the low fitting statistics on lower tier suits (although adding in all the slots was a major step in the right direction) ^ Although I do suspect that it is part of the reason Assaults are over performing, given that they have a significant slot advantage. 8 H/L (Medium Suits) vs 6 H/L (Light Suits) vs 5 H/L (Heavy Suits)...might be onto something there...Particularly the "Tech 2" specialized medium frames (Assault/Logi) have a huge amount of versatility for specialized suits (although, that isn't necessarily a bad thing). Although the thought of a Commando/Sentinel Suit with 8 slots is fairly terrifying (Typically it seems as though the stats where designed with the lower slot count in mind, but it does mean that medium frames retain a higher degree of versatility to their Lighter or Heavier Counterparts). As an aside, "more module slots" also means that module buffs are not felt equally. The more module slots available to a unit, the more that unit stands to benefit from buffs to a given module buff. This point is of particular concern when buffing module which can be stacked without diminishing returns. Not to say that modules shouldn't be buffed, rather, that we should take into account potential impact on interclass balance when doing so. "Let's buff shield extenders", for instance, may seem an obvious and reasonable means by which to bring shields up-to-speed with armor. It may be, but it will also worsen interclass balance, as MedFrames stand to benefit from the buff moreso than Heavies and Lights, which places MedFrames even further ahead of the pack. Buffing MedFrame base shield stats (i.e. recovery and delay) and then buffing shield extenders -- which appears to be the path taken -- well, that will be even worse for interclass balance. The same caveat applies to NPE. Given the current module progression, buffing a given module will benefit those running PRO tier by substantially greater degree than those running STD. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 20:39:00 - [7] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Mars Tyr wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: One thing we desperately need is new player retention. And one of the chief reasons players don't stay is their inability to compete. And a big reason for that is fitting space. The change to make all tiers of suit have the same fitting space was a good step in the right direction, but we failed to also increase CPU/PG when we did so. But originally, the suit CPU/PG allotment was designed around the lower slot count. Standard had way less fitting than proto because standard had way less slots. So now new players can't even utilize those extra slots because they simply don't have the fitting space. I did a random sampling of about 10 different suit types across all types and races, and I found that standard had ~47% of the fitting proto does. That is insane. I mean look at this: here is a completely militia fit suit, a fit a new player might use. Notice how its over its PG/CPU allotment? That's on a character with max skills in everything. Max CPU/pG increase, max weapon PG/CPU reduction (both main and sidearm) max light damage mod reduction; every single fitting skill is maxed out, and we still cannot fit everything. If a maxed out player can't do it, how is a newbro supposed to compete? What we need to do is massively buff the CPU/PG of all tiers of suit save for proto. Proto is in a good spot fitting wise, so we should keep it the same. What we need to do is buff militia, standard, and advanced fitting space to be closer to proto's fitting allotment. Assuming numbers are MLT/STD/ADV, I am tentatively thinking of a 55%/60%/80% of the proto version's fitting space. This will give a massive buff to lower tier suits, which helps newbros. And they need all the help they can get at this point. I can draw up a spreadsheet with exact numbers, but since that would take a long time I'm going to wait to see if this idea catches on before spending time on it. While I agree with what you're saying that we need to buff the cpu/pg of the low end suits, I disagree that this is the biggest hurdle facing newer players TBH the bigger problem is the absurdity in gear which they will be facing. I'm putting a new thread together discussing it. Even if we buff gear, it won't mean anything if newbros can't fit it. Buffing fitting helps them now, and it helps them after we buff the mods. Newbros run low-end gear. If CCPs buff low-end gear while holding high-end gear constant, newbros will absolutely benefit. Both directly and relatively. Not to say that adding PG/CPU to lower end suits wouldn't help newbros. Doing so would make it easier to fit higher end gear on lower end suits. That said, those running lower end gear on lower end suits would not benefit at all from additional PG/CPU. In fact, their relative performance may suffer, given that those who've unlocked higher end gear could fit it on lower end suits. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 22:07:00 - [8] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is the Gallente Assault. As you can see from the pre-fit selections, one good way to run it is with A,B,C in its highs and X,Y,Z in its lows. Feel free to swap out the yellow, prefit modules with better modules of the same type or to create your own by experimenting with different options. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:19:00 - [9] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. If we do that, we will need to make militia versions of all mods. Reactive plates, ferroscale, everything. Agreed. Might not be a bad idea to let newbros swap around yellows to encourage experimentation. Building your first custom fit would be alot easier. No need to understand/peruse skills, visit the market or worry about ISK. Just read the descriptions of different yellows that "fit" and try out whatever looks interesting. * Is like APEX, but not APEX as APEX modules are STD tier. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:22:00 - [10] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Part of the issues surrounding Militia Suits/Fits is that Militia Items have higher fitting costs then their Standard Counterparts...that's all well and good, but it means that Militia Suits actually need more CPU/PG per slot than a Standard Suit...The solution to this with HAVs was to make the STD/ADV/PRO HAVs hav 7 slots, and the MLT HAVs have 5 slots (Gunnlogi 5/2 vs the Sica 4/1)...and it might work for the suits as well (although it sort of nerfs Militia, while still buffing it?)...I'm working on a spreadsheet for this kind of thing, have most of the stats input, taking a break on it because editing the formulae is annoying xD, but I should have it done soon... It'll at least serve as a base for people to work on their own proposals, with information like average module fitting statistics for each slot (discounting values of zero in pg/cpu so as not to tremendously bring down fitting amounts)... Not sure whether or not I agree, but several have proposed removing MLT Gear altogether. Varoth Drac had a unique, arguably better idea for MLT Gear. I'd have to dig up the thread for details, but the premise IIRC was to make MLT Modules yellow and pre-fit suits with them to serve as a kind of reminder/guide/template for newbros ... This, Mr Newbro, is an off-the-rack Gallente Assault. It comes with the following pre-fit selections, which demonstrate one good, "racially appropriate" way to run it. The pre-fit module selections are intended to serve as a guide. You are, of course, encouraged to swap out the freebie modules with better performing modules of the same type or to create your own fit by experimenting with different combinations of modules. If we do that, we will need to make militia versions of all mods. Reactive plates, ferroscale, everything. No problem with that, provided that they all follow a gods damned pattern for generating the statistics It'd be nice if that progression pattern were simplified and standardized across all module types. Kinda like weapons, where STD are 5% weaker than ADV, and ADV are 5% weaker than PRO. Emphasis on the method (not the 5%). Dropsuit Usage Rates

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.07 23:28:00 - [11] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Agreed, (although that only holds true for the Majority of weapons, AV weapons are 10% per tier and Sniper Rifles are a few damage per tier...then a few hundred jumping up to officer) All for making exceptions when and where necessary :-) Exceptions aside, a standardized progression makes more sense than what we have now. If such a thing is within reach, choosing a standardized progression with less extreme gaps between STD and PRO would really help with NPE. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.08 02:37:00 - [12] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: Even given what has been already suggested (admittedly, I skimmed), I still question the game design reasons to keep Militia/Standard gear around. Why does this gear exist? Person A: "To let new players have cheap gear to experiment with!" Person B: "To have a cheap option available ~~for Jews~~ to thrifty individuals!" Person C: "To have more sense of progression from 'new player' to 'veteran'-status!" Person D: "To blah blah [insert other argument here] blah!" But how legitimate are those? 1. Why do new players HAVE TO experiment with the worst gear in the game? Even if you improve it, it is still bad, and new players will still reach the point where they are going up against better equipped players, which is always going to be harder on them. 2. And cheap gear? Why does the cheapest gear have to be THREE to FOUR whole teirs of power below the best? And progression? Why does progression work hand in hand with increase in power? 3. I have more question than answers, and the above are more rhetorical than anything, but really, the biggest question I have is "how fun is running the worst gear in the game?" I know it ain't too fun. And that is what it comes down to, doesn't it? Does the low end gear have a good impact upon fun? I say no. How fun are these low end fits, and why are new players (and bad ones like me) relegated to them I remember back in Chromosome, where we had most chunks of gameplay occur in three tiers: Militia, Standard, and Advanced. Prototype was seldom seen. Militia and standard are mostly identical, so really most of my time in Chrome was fighting within only TWO teirs, and occasionally you'd have a sort of "Boss" battle, some baddie with glowing red eyes... Spooky. 4. I could ramble on and on, but I don't see how Militia and Standard is good for DUST. Personally, I'd like for ADV become the "new" STD, Proto the new ADV, and officer the new Prototype. As for The "old" STD and MLT? They become the new bigfoot. I'd explain the simple BPO transition process, but nobody's gunna read this so blah blah, Minotaurs are sexy, blah. 1. Because players have to start somewhere? "Progressing" from better to worse doesn't make much sense. And consider the inverse: let new players experiment with the best gear in the game ... that'd be interesting, but it isn't particularly intuitive. 2. It really shouldn't be. Jumps between tiers should be noticeable but slight. There really shouldn't be instances of PRO being 200% (or more) better than STD. 3. Running loadouts that are many times worse than what others are running is no good, but advancement is fun. Improvement, progress, return on investment, etc ... these are good feelings. 4. If the power gap between tiers was less pronounced, might your position may change? A two-tier system replaces progressive advancement (a little bit at a time) with a much less fulfilling "start here ... upgrade once ... k done". Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.01.08 05:51:00 - [13] - Quote @ Minotaur One benefit of having more steps over fewer is that "returns" are paid at a tighter interval. Players who are frequently rewarded for their progress will likely find the grind more bearable. The time required to move from start to finish might be the same in the end, but more steps means that the player can be paid rewards at more milestones along the way. Think back to your first grind for your first proto dropsuit. Remember leveling from 4 to 5? Such a painful grind. But by that point, you were invested in DUST so you stuck with it. You'd also been rewarded a few times for your progress to date, with incremental class bonuses paid at each Level and access to better suits granted at Levels 1 and 3. The hook was set. Say CCP did away with Levels 1, 2, 3 and 4. Instead, you grind against one big dropsuit SP bar which starts at Zero and ends with Max. No pats on the back or "level up" rewards along the way. Just one slow grind. Ewww. How many Newbros would walk before DUST had a chance to set its hooks? Plus, there'd be no performance curve at all. There'd be low level, and there'd be max level with no points in between. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2016.02.17 14:06:00 - [14] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: This thread is something I believe should be considered when designing the 2.0 if tiered progression is kept. Agreed! Hoping that super duper Vet Perks are counted among the "Hard Lessons Learned" when designing DUST 2. The Chuckleheads will no doubt moan, but better NPE is well worth the butthurt. Dropsuit Usage Rates

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