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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 00:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Inspiration from DDx77 original proposal
Players are frustrated by the on-demand ability of continuous jumps and melee provided by myofibril stimulants. As an avid jumpy melee player, I will concede that waves of opportunity should be built into the use of jumps/melee (more than current suit stamina mechanics) to encourage their use for tactical use, rather than a means for spamming ranged explosive weaponry at will in CQC.
Altering DDx77 proposal, I want to see blue bottles removed from high slots and moved to the equipment slot; treated with similar mechanics as the personal cloaking device.
e.g. Myofibiril Stimulant Device
Shared tier attributes:
-You cannot hold a weapon, however you may still punch and jump.
-All tiers are equivalent to stacking 3 proto myofibiril modules. Regen rate is the defining separation point between myo equipment levels here--waves of opportunity.
-Minimum Activation level - 50%
-No Put-down delay
-Put down auto deplets equipment charge
-Green and Red bottle properties are independent of this equipment. Punches and jumps will still drain suit stamina. When equipment loses power your punches and jumps return to normal level. When you run out of suit stamina, you cease to jump or punch until it recovers--even if EQ module is active.
-The MSD has a very high pg requirement (see balance factors below).
Basic MSD
Duration - 20 sec
Regen Rate from empty - 20 sec
[Effective wait to use equipment again after to swap to weapon] = 10 seconds
Adv MSD
Duration - 20 sec
Regen Rate from empty - 15 sec
[Wait] = 7.5 sec
Pro MSD
Duration - 20 sec
Regen Rate from empty - 10 sec
[Wait] = 5 sec
Balance Factors:
-Scouts get a pg fitting bonus to MSDs.
-Scouts can fit both a MSD and a cloak thus removing the ability of cloaked super punches from min scouts/
-Logis use their equipment fitting bonus for the MSD
-As EQ the MSD gives the logi a buff by allowing them to improve high slot tank or ewar while retaining increased mobility with the MSD to navigate map and lay hives/links.
-Assaults and commandos do not get a fitting bonus so they are required to fit pg modules in high slots (similar to myo blue bottles in high slots) in order to fit a MSD while retaining decent fitting space for weapons and low slot modules.
-The usefulness of map navigation with a MSD to an assault or commando means they must sacrifice their 1 EQ slot which in the current meta is filled with a scanner, compact nano, allotek nano, or various uplinks. Removing this enhances the support role of logis for their team who may carry multiple equipment in addition a MSD.
-Sentinels will continue to not have an EQ slot. All suit tiers would get a jump height buff that allows them to clear rails without a need for modules or EQ.
Additions and commentary:
-The inclusion of no put down delay allows users to jump and swap to a weapon at the apex of a jump and fire a volley, but they are unable to use jump evasion continuously as the swap instantly depletes equipment power.
-By condensing blue bottles into a single module devs can offer variations that offer greater jump power vs less punch power and visa-versa. Additionally, with the single module we won't likely run into the bizarre stacking issue which occurred with 4 and 5 myofibiril stims when jump enhancement were introduced.
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ShamelessALT
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
120
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Posted - 2015.10.27 00:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
good luck getting the jump scrubs to agree with you.
If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 00:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
I really don't need to convince them.
*lights a cyno to devs on Skype*
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Golden Day
Corrosive Synergy
RUST415
2
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Posted - 2015.10.27 00:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
No. No seriously no.
Im just a glorified blueberry
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.10.27 01:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think there are better alternatives.
I run a scout that can be one hit bt MD splash, so I am not exactly a fan.
I just think it is a reasonable style that needs a few changes, not something as drastic as making it EQ.
Part of the point was that heavies should be able to jump over railings if needs be, and making them EQ negates that. And I have never heard of someone complain about myo-stacking sentinels.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 03:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Part of the point was that heavies should be able to jump over railings if needs be, and making them EQ negates that. And I have never heard of someone complain about myo-stacking sentinels.
Heavies should be able jump over a 2 foot barrier, let alone a six inch curb, without the need for modules or EQ. 
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 03:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Golden Day wrote:No. No seriously no.
Enlighten me. Why are you opposed to it?
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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HOWDIDHEKILLME
Dying to Reload
1
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Posted - 2015.10.27 03:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
If you ( the guy who runs around with equipment in hand punching people to death ) wants this, I have nothing but suspicion if it's coming from you lol. |
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 04:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote:If you ( the guy who runs around with equipment in hand punching people to death ) wants this, I have nothing but suspicion if it's coming from you lol.
Yep, I get to maintain my play-style to an extent. 
I'm looking at the health of the game here and these changes would affect me in several ways.
1.) Can't self rep anymore with a compact nanohive. I will need the support of a logi to rep me in between CQC brawls.
2.) I have to be mindful of my 20 second engagement window with the recharge speed of the EQ, in addition to my suit stamina.
3.) A punchy fit will be more costly to run on a commando as I have to fit 2 to 3 complex pg upgrades in my high slots to offset the pg drain of the MDS equipment--which could be priced around 25k at proto level--bringing it relatively closer into range with the cost of a proto weapon (which at 2228dps at a 1m range is a beast of a weapon).
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.10.27 04:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Look, changing the jumping mechanics such that the full jump requires a charge and takes up twice the stamina, while retaining the regular jump and stamina minimizes abuses while still allowing for the extra mobility when wanted.
This has been suggested several times by different people and is the best option.
Making it EQ is unnecessary, ineloquent, and much more cumbersome. It isn't a good idea.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 04:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Look, changing the jumping mechanics such that the full jump requires a charge and takes up twice the stamina, while retaining the regular jump and stamina minimizes abuses while still allowing for the extra mobility when wanted.
This has been suggested several times by different people and is the best option.
Making it EQ is unnecessary, ineloquent, and much more cumbersome. It isn't a good idea.
Making it EQ allows potential for more variation (which are limited by funky stacking penalties) and accessibility to high jumps for newer players, when equipment is differentiated by EQ recharge time.
Quote:By condensing blue bottles into a single module devs can offer variations that offer greater jump power vs less punch power and visa-versa. Additionally, with the single module we won't likely run into the bizarre stacking issue which occurred with 4 and 5 myofibiril stims when jump enhancement were introduced.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Russell Franklin
The Exemplars
23
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Posted - 2015.10.27 04:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
What about changing the Kinetics to affect jump instead of myos. Melee players ive seen don't run red bottles much anyway.
Dedicated forge gunner and vehicle removal specialist
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Russell Franklin
The Exemplars
24
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Posted - 2015.10.27 04:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Russell Franklin wrote:What about changing the Kinetics to affect jump instead of myos. Melee players ive seen don't run red bottles much anyway.
Also increase PG/CPU cost of red bottles slightly to help limit some of the jumpers.
Dedicated forge gunner and vehicle removal specialist
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 04:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Russell Franklin wrote:What about changing the Kinetics to affect jump instead of myos. Melee players ive seen don't run red bottles much anyway.
We've been though this before. Jumps were combined with myos because it follows logic. It's a module that increases the raw power of your arms, it makes sense that it increases the raw power of your legs.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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noob cavman
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
4
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Posted - 2015.10.27 05:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
How about we split the two.
Blue bottles for fisting and yellow bottles for jumps.
That or just nerf jumps and leave m+¬l+¬e alone... Hmmm I think am biased on this on XD
The most abusive northerner.
currently reading clockwork vampires by andy remic. A terra bad/awesome author
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 05:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Like I said above you, I'm not down for splitting the properties of the myo.
And don't you touch my yellow bottle. I want it to remain mostly useless!
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Vicious Minotaur
3
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Posted - 2015.10.27 05:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Needing to navigate the pi+ƒ-poor weapon/equipment HUD pop-up just to jump higher would be, well, poor game design. That damn thing is clunky as hell. I can't think of any Shooter with a jump pack/double jump/jet pack/[other increased jump height thing] that uses anything more than the game's jump button for usage.
There are much better solutions to Myofibril issues. They mainly involve:
1) Separate Myos into "Arm" and "Leg" modules
2) Tie Myo jumping into the "X" button press duration
3) Tie Myo jumping into stamina usage
4) Make item 3 contingent upon item 2
Items 2 & 3 (maybe even 4) introduce possible variables, numbers if you will, that could be tweaked upon further.
Minotaur Master Race
Penetrating humans since ca 84 BCE.
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 05:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
@Vicious Minotaur
From a game design perspective in a competitive shooter, making it more obvious to other players that an enemy is about to engage a tool makes sense when trying to build play/counter-play.
Under the current mechanics, you have little idea whether someone has myos or not until you engage them and they hop away. Seeing someone swap to the arm up/putton press position is much of an indication that the target is going to jump or engage in melee.
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Vicious Minotaur
3
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Posted - 2015.10.27 06:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:@Vicious Minotaur
You also have no idea if the enemy you faced is built for regen, damage, biotics, EWAR, etc.
You don't know until you shoot them and they duck to cover and are back up to nearly full health.
You don't know until they nuke you with weapons that seem to do more damage than usual.
You don't know until the enemy runs away behind cover quicker than you can follow.
And you'll probably be dead or have an easy +50 for EWAR fits, and even then, you'll probably never truly know.
Really, with regards to fits, the only thing you can really know is how many health mods they have, and maybe some equipment. Despite all that, all those "unknowable until they happen" things still allow for healthy counter play. I don't see how Myos are problematic in that specific regard.
Minotaur Master Race
Penetrating humans since ca 84 BCE.
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 06:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:You also have no idea if the enemy you faced is built for regen, damage, biotics, EWAR, etc.
Fair point. There are some other things that can be addressed from a potential development cost standpoint.
Vicious Minotaur wrote: There are much better solutions to Myofibril issues. They mainly involve:
1) Separate Myos into "Arm" and "Leg" modules
2) Tie Myo jumping into the "X" button press duration
3) Tie Myo jumping into stamina usage
4) Make item 3 contingent upon item 2
-Separation of individual "Arm" and "Leg" modules, plus an on-screen tooltip prompt saying "hold and release to jump" requires language localization which cost money and resources that CCP may not be willing to spend on Dust atm. Instead, moving the blue bottle icon down to the EQ slot and copy/pasting current text over doesn't require this localization.
-Adding a 'hold x to jump tool tip' requires localization, and altering the baked in Scaleform UI elements of the HUD are very unwieldy to work with in Dust according to devs. With the cloak equipment, its icons already exist.
-The cloak already affects player attributes, e.g. suit db profile. It may be easier for devs to simply make a cloak, decouple the character mesh alteration, and have it affect jump height and melee power. Rather than making a charge mechanic that affects jump (and how would the charge jump be indicated on the HUD? As stated earlier, affecting hud elements is time consuming for devs).
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 07:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Look, changing the jumping mechanics such that the full jump requires a charge and takes up twice the stamina, while retaining the regular jump and stamina minimizes abuses while still allowing for the extra mobility when wanted.
This has been suggested several times by different people and is the best option.
Making it EQ is unnecessary, ineloquent, and much more cumbersome. It isn't a good idea.
Question. Are you using a gamepad or kb/m as your preferred input?
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 21:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:There are some other things that can be addressed from a potential development cost standpoint. Vicious Minotaur wrote: There are much better solutions to Myofibril issues. They mainly involve:
1) Separate Myos into "Arm" and "Leg" modules
2) Tie Myo jumping into the "X" button press duration
3) Tie Myo jumping into stamina usage
4) Make item 3 contingent upon item 2 -Separation of individual "Arm" and "Leg" modules, plus an on-screen tooltip prompt saying "hold and release to jump" requires language localization which cost money and resources that CCP may not be willing to spend on Dust atm. Instead, moving the blue bottle icon down to the EQ slot and copy/pasting current text over doesn't require this localization. -Adding a 'hold x to jump tool tip' requires localization, and altering the baked in Scaleform UI elements of the HUD are very unwieldy to work with in Dust according to devs. With the cloak equipment, its icons already exist. -The cloak already affects player attributes, e.g. suit db profile. It may be easier for devs to simply make a cloak, decouple the character mesh alteration, and have it affect jump height and melee power. Rather than making a charge mechanic that affects jump (and how would the charge jump be indicated on the HUD? As stated earlier, affecting hud elements is time consuming for devs).
Am I incorrect on these points?
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 22:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
The tricky thing might be decoupling the invisibility property of the cloak. I wonder if Rattati can fiddle with numbers which drastically increase character mesh shimmer.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Cesar Geronimo
DUST University
Ivy League
127
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Posted - 2015.10.27 22:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Why is everyone so hellbent on making this complicated? Keep everything the way it is and add a modifier that adds increasing weapon spread for those who shoot and jump so they won't hit anything farther than 10m away... |
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 22:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cesar Geronimo wrote:Why is everyone so hellbent on making this complicated? Keep everything the way it is and add a modifier that adds increasing weapon spread for those who shoot and jump so they won't hit anything farther than 10m away...
AOE splash weapons be like
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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A Gentleman Scumbag
15
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Posted - 2015.10.27 22:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
ShamelessALT wrote:good luck getting the jump scrubs to agree with you.
...and their forum alts as well. DON'T TOUCH MAH CRUTCH!  |
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
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Posted - 2015.10.27 23:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cesar Geronimo wrote:Why is everyone so hellbent on making this complicated?
It's really not complicated. This is a possible solution which makes power jump and melee;
-a tactical tool
-levels disparity between new players and vets in terms of access to map mobility
-allows devs to offer different variations of jump height while not having to contend with bugged stacking penalties
-can be realistically implemented with a hotfix
-eliminates cloak punching by scouts
-reigns in the ability of melee commando to spam melee without end while not affecting the balance of other biotic modules--that in turn affect new vs old player power differences.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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A Gentleman Scumbag
16
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Posted - 2015.10.28 00:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:-Adding a 'hold x to jump tool tip' requires localization, and altering the baked in Scaleform UI elements of the HUD are very unwieldy to work with in Dust according to devs. With the cloak equipment, its icons already exist.
And how do you know this again? |
Not Jadek Menahiem
Xer Cloud Consortium
2
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Posted - 2015.10.28 00:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
OP is obviously trying to get super jumps of old back so they can go knifing and remote detonating dropships.
GOD. WHO WILL THINK OF THE POOR DROPSHIP PILOTS! |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
12
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Posted - 2015.10.28 00:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bumping. I approve of this concept.
This is similar to the idea I proposed on the community crowdsourcing trello board: https://trello.com/c/ndrbokFX Which was hilariously marked "Already Implemented" by Rattati Making high jumps require a piece of equipment can help prevent the bullshit MD myofibbers while still allowing players to traverse maps easier.
"I get to fist tanks in butt" - Jadek Menaheim
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