|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
   |
Posted - 2015.10.27 00:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Inspiration from DDx77 original proposal
Players are frustrated by the on-demand ability of continuous jumps and melee provided by myofibril stimulants. As an avid jumpy melee player, I will concede that waves of opportunity should be built into the use of jumps/melee (more than current suit stamina mechanics) to encourage their use for tactical use, rather than a means for spamming ranged explosive weaponry at will in CQC.
Altering DDx77 proposal, I want to see blue bottles removed from high slots and moved to the equipment slot; treated with similar mechanics as the personal cloaking device.
e.g. Myofibiril Stimulant Device
Shared tier attributes:
-You cannot hold a weapon, however you may still punch and jump.
-All tiers are equivalent to stacking 3 proto myofibiril modules. Regen rate is the defining separation point between myo equipment levels here--waves of opportunity.
-Minimum Activation level - 50%
-No Put-down delay
-Put down auto deplets equipment charge
-Green and Red bottle properties are independent of this equipment. Punches and jumps will still drain suit stamina. When equipment loses power your punches and jumps return to normal level. When you run out of suit stamina, you cease to jump or punch until it recovers--even if EQ module is active.
-The MSD has a very high pg requirement (see balance factors below).
Basic MSD
Duration - 20 sec
Regen Rate from empty - 20 sec
[Effective wait to use equipment again after to swap to weapon] = 10 seconds
Adv MSD
Duration - 20 sec
Regen Rate from empty - 15 sec
[Wait] = 7.5 sec
Pro MSD
Duration - 20 sec
Regen Rate from empty - 10 sec
[Wait] = 5 sec
Balance Factors:
-Scouts get a pg fitting bonus to MSDs.
-Scouts can fit both a MSD and a cloak thus removing the ability of cloaked super punches from min scouts/
-Logis use their equipment fitting bonus for the MSD
-As EQ the MSD gives the logi a buff by allowing them to improve high slot tank or ewar while retaining increased mobility with the MSD to navigate map and lay hives/links.
-Assaults and commandos do not get a fitting bonus so they are required to fit pg modules in high slots (similar to myo blue bottles in high slots) in order to fit a MSD while retaining decent fitting space for weapons and low slot modules.
-The usefulness of map navigation with a MSD to an assault or commando means they must sacrifice their 1 EQ slot which in the current meta is filled with a scanner, compact nano, allotek nano, or various uplinks. Removing this enhances the support role of logis for their team who may carry multiple equipment in addition a MSD.
-Sentinels will continue to not have an EQ slot. All suit tiers would get a jump height buff that allows them to clear rails without a need for modules or EQ.
Additions and commentary:
-The inclusion of no put down delay allows users to jump and swap to a weapon at the apex of a jump and fire a volley, but they are unable to use jump evasion continuously as the swap instantly depletes equipment power.
-By condensing blue bottles into a single module devs can offer variations that offer greater jump power vs less punch power and visa-versa. Additionally, with the single module we won't likely run into the bizarre stacking issue which occurred with 4 and 5 myofibiril stims when jump enhancement were introduced.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 00:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
I really don't need to convince them.
*lights a cyno to devs on Skype*
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 03:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Part of the point was that heavies should be able to jump over railings if needs be, and making them EQ negates that. And I have never heard of someone complain about myo-stacking sentinels.
Heavies should be able jump over a 2 foot barrier, let alone a six inch curb, without the need for modules or EQ. 
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 03:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Golden Day wrote:No. No seriously no.
Enlighten me. Why are you opposed to it?
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 04:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote:If you ( the guy who runs around with equipment in hand punching people to death ) wants this, I have nothing but suspicion if it's coming from you lol.
Yep, I get to maintain my play-style to an extent. 
I'm looking at the health of the game here and these changes would affect me in several ways.
1.) Can't self rep anymore with a compact nanohive. I will need the support of a logi to rep me in between CQC brawls.
2.) I have to be mindful of my 20 second engagement window with the recharge speed of the EQ, in addition to my suit stamina.
3.) A punchy fit will be more costly to run on a commando as I have to fit 2 to 3 complex pg upgrades in my high slots to offset the pg drain of the MDS equipment--which could be priced around 25k at proto level--bringing it relatively closer into range with the cost of a proto weapon (which at 2228dps at a 1m range is a beast of a weapon).
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 04:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Look, changing the jumping mechanics such that the full jump requires a charge and takes up twice the stamina, while retaining the regular jump and stamina minimizes abuses while still allowing for the extra mobility when wanted.
This has been suggested several times by different people and is the best option.
Making it EQ is unnecessary, ineloquent, and much more cumbersome. It isn't a good idea.
Making it EQ allows potential for more variation (which are limited by funky stacking penalties) and accessibility to high jumps for newer players, when equipment is differentiated by EQ recharge time.
Quote:By condensing blue bottles into a single module devs can offer variations that offer greater jump power vs less punch power and visa-versa. Additionally, with the single module we won't likely run into the bizarre stacking issue which occurred with 4 and 5 myofibiril stims when jump enhancement were introduced.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 04:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Russell Franklin wrote:What about changing the Kinetics to affect jump instead of myos. Melee players ive seen don't run red bottles much anyway.
We've been though this before. Jumps were combined with myos because it follows logic. It's a module that increases the raw power of your arms, it makes sense that it increases the raw power of your legs.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 05:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Like I said above you, I'm not down for splitting the properties of the myo.
And don't you touch my yellow bottle. I want it to remain mostly useless!
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 05:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
@Vicious Minotaur
From a game design perspective in a competitive shooter, making it more obvious to other players that an enemy is about to engage a tool makes sense when trying to build play/counter-play.
Under the current mechanics, you have little idea whether someone has myos or not until you engage them and they hop away. Seeing someone swap to the arm up/putton press position is much of an indication that the target is going to jump or engage in melee.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 06:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:You also have no idea if the enemy you faced is built for regen, damage, biotics, EWAR, etc.
Fair point. There are some other things that can be addressed from a potential development cost standpoint.
Vicious Minotaur wrote: There are much better solutions to Myofibril issues. They mainly involve:
1) Separate Myos into "Arm" and "Leg" modules
2) Tie Myo jumping into the "X" button press duration
3) Tie Myo jumping into stamina usage
4) Make item 3 contingent upon item 2
-Separation of individual "Arm" and "Leg" modules, plus an on-screen tooltip prompt saying "hold and release to jump" requires language localization which cost money and resources that CCP may not be willing to spend on Dust atm. Instead, moving the blue bottle icon down to the EQ slot and copy/pasting current text over doesn't require this localization.
-Adding a 'hold x to jump tool tip' requires localization, and altering the baked in Scaleform UI elements of the HUD are very unwieldy to work with in Dust according to devs. With the cloak equipment, its icons already exist.
-The cloak already affects player attributes, e.g. suit db profile. It may be easier for devs to simply make a cloak, decouple the character mesh alteration, and have it affect jump height and melee power. Rather than making a charge mechanic that affects jump (and how would the charge jump be indicated on the HUD? As stated earlier, affecting hud elements is time consuming for devs).
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
|
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 07:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Look, changing the jumping mechanics such that the full jump requires a charge and takes up twice the stamina, while retaining the regular jump and stamina minimizes abuses while still allowing for the extra mobility when wanted.
This has been suggested several times by different people and is the best option.
Making it EQ is unnecessary, ineloquent, and much more cumbersome. It isn't a good idea.
Question. Are you using a gamepad or kb/m as your preferred input?
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 21:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:There are some other things that can be addressed from a potential development cost standpoint. Vicious Minotaur wrote: There are much better solutions to Myofibril issues. They mainly involve:
1) Separate Myos into "Arm" and "Leg" modules
2) Tie Myo jumping into the "X" button press duration
3) Tie Myo jumping into stamina usage
4) Make item 3 contingent upon item 2 -Separation of individual "Arm" and "Leg" modules, plus an on-screen tooltip prompt saying "hold and release to jump" requires language localization which cost money and resources that CCP may not be willing to spend on Dust atm. Instead, moving the blue bottle icon down to the EQ slot and copy/pasting current text over doesn't require this localization. -Adding a 'hold x to jump tool tip' requires localization, and altering the baked in Scaleform UI elements of the HUD are very unwieldy to work with in Dust according to devs. With the cloak equipment, its icons already exist. -The cloak already affects player attributes, e.g. suit db profile. It may be easier for devs to simply make a cloak, decouple the character mesh alteration, and have it affect jump height and melee power. Rather than making a charge mechanic that affects jump (and how would the charge jump be indicated on the HUD? As stated earlier, affecting hud elements is time consuming for devs).
Am I incorrect on these points?
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 22:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
The tricky thing might be decoupling the invisibility property of the cloak. I wonder if Rattati can fiddle with numbers which drastically increase character mesh shimmer.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 22:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cesar Geronimo wrote:Why is everyone so hellbent on making this complicated? Keep everything the way it is and add a modifier that adds increasing weapon spread for those who shoot and jump so they won't hit anything farther than 10m away...
AOE splash weapons be like
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.27 23:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cesar Geronimo wrote:Why is everyone so hellbent on making this complicated?
It's really not complicated. This is a possible solution which makes power jump and melee;
-a tactical tool
-levels disparity between new players and vets in terms of access to map mobility
-allows devs to offer different variations of jump height while not having to contend with bugged stacking penalties
-can be realistically implemented with a hotfix
-eliminates cloak punching by scouts
-reigns in the ability of melee commando to spam melee without end while not affecting the balance of other biotic modules--that in turn affect new vs old player power differences.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 02:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
@Shadowed Cola
Again, please read the balance factors in the original post.
Quote:Balance Factors:
-Scouts get a pg fitting bonus to MSDs.
-Scouts can fit both a MSD and a cloak thus removing the ability of cloaked super punches from min scouts/
-Logis use their equipment fitting bonus for the MSD
-As EQ the MSD gives the logi a buff by allowing them to improve high slot tank or ewar while retaining increased mobility with the MSD to navigate map and lay hives/links.
-Assaults and commandos do not get a fitting bonus so they are required to fit pg modules in high slots (similar to myo blue bottles in high slots) in order to fit a MSD while retaining decent fitting space for weapons and low slot modules.
-The usefulness of map navigation with a MSD to an assault or commando means they must sacrifice their 1 EQ slot which in the current meta is filled with a scanner, compact nano, allotek nano, or various uplinks. Removing this enhances the support role of logis for their team who may carry multiple equipment in addition a MSD.
-Sentinels will continue to not have an EQ slot. All suit tiers would get a jump height buff that allows them to clear rails without a need for modules or EQ.
By using the existing cloak activation mechanics (which trigger a timed use of enhanced jump and melee power) there is no need for devs to create a 3rd person jet pack--which as you've highlighted would likely be too taxing on dev resources to build and optimize for the PS3.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 03:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Not Jadek Menahiem wrote:
If a saboteur can take down a low flying dropship with knives and good timing, that would make for great video.
From another perspective, improved power jumps also assist teams extracting. Imagine a friendly pilot is approaching and the LZ is too hot for a landing extraction. The squad activates their MSDs, launch into the air, and mash circle as they get close to incoming dropship.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 04:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Bad idea. It works properly how it is. All your limbs get stronger, legs and arms.
There is nothing wrong with people jumping. It has added to the vertical gameplay.
It also helps set DUSt apart from other shooters in allowing the most versatile and customizable player types.
 You still have lots of vertical gameplay with this--even more so.
Let me reiterate once again.
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Cesar Geronimo wrote:Why is everyone so hellbent on making this complicated? It's really not complicated. This is a possible solution which makes power jump and melee; -a tactical tool -levels disparity between new players and vets in terms of access to map mobility -allows devs to offer different variations of jump height while not having to contend with bugged stacking penalties -can be realistically implemented with a hotfix -eliminates cloak punching by scouts -reigns in the ability of melee commando to spam melee without end while not affecting the balance of other biotic modules--that in turn affect new vs old player power differences.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 05:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Thanks for letting me know that you have them in your back pocket , just turns me off even more and leads me to believe that this game is going nowhere .
I've got no one in my pocket. CCP is going to design the game however they see fit. There are many ways to reach out to devs.
Dust forums, Twitter, Trello, Reddit, Slack, Skype, IRC, etc.
[email protected]
https://trello.com/b/8PvubQrN/dust-514-community-crowdsourcing
reach out, Devs are people. They are interested in hearing from players who are passionate about games, communities, and building features. If you have something to share, design a proposal and submit it to them.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 05:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui, that name sounds familiar.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
|
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 06:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Making it go in the equipment slot is a big problem though. It prevents people from jumping and shooting. If you eliminate that you take away the fun and the balance.
As far as I am concerned Scouts and other non-Heavy classes have always needed some help. WHenever the scouts get something everyone freaks out and demands a nerf. Even the cloak they got hardly cloaks them.
The current proposal I've laid out still lets you shoot while in an enhanced jump. You activate the module, press x to jump, tap to swap to your primary and fire while airborne. However, by swapping to your primary from your EQ you deplete any remaining power in the EQ. This means you must wait until the module recharges to at least 50% power until you can use another jump attack/retreat.
This makes the jump a calculated tactical tool. New players have access to the same jump height as do veterans. Players who have invested skillpoints in the module have a faster recharge rate.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 09:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:It bothers me that you feel like you could influence the game just because you skype with the dev's as you so eloquently put it and this also leads me to believe that's why this game is so stagnant as well as issues that help this game remain stagnant , isn't attended to like matchmaking to bring greater balance in pub matches but given attention to " non-issues " that are created by people that really have nothing better to do then mess with mechanics that really don't need screwing with at all .
Speaking of balance, can I get your thoughts on equalizing jump and melee power across tiers (mlt, basic, adv. pro)?
OP wrote:This proposal also equalizes jump and melee power across tiers--reducing disparity between new and old players. Players have equal access to jump height, but skill investment into the equipment allows quicker recharge time.
Please explain to me how that is a bad thing.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 09:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:I can't think of any Shooter with a jump pack/double jump/jet pack/[other increased jump height thing] that uses anything more than the game's jump button for usage.
How many shooters out there are like Dust? The modular fitting system makes this game a complex beast to balance. As I've outlined in the OP, moving myo jumping/melee to an active equipment approach help address many balance issues and allows devs to introduce more variations of jumps with reduced development costs (which is a key factor with current team resources).
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 19:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:You people want to limit spawn placement because these same squads are just too lazy to change their tactics to address high spawns , you want to screw with bio's when there's nothing wrong with them now and after CCP just made changes to them for the reasons of the community complaining , you people expanded the HAV's weak area's instead of addressing the fact that maybe they just need to revert back to the system of 1.6 and bring back some of the mods that they use to have ( which they said that they were doing as far as the mods ) because you people just can't handle HAV's but you run in squads so you already have the numerical advantage over solo players and speaking of solo players , now you people want to kill the solo game instead of just trying to address the imbalance's of not having a true matchmaking system.
Sure, there are real issues with matchmaking e.g. veterans being able to smurf into lower mu bracket and academy battles. The devs can commit all the time they have to enhancing an already robust matchmaking system, it's not going to do much difference with very low player counts--whereas a port would likely help in that regard, but that costs money, development resources, and is a risky move (that could blowback if it flounders on PS4/PC) at the moment when CCP as a company is trying to position Valkyrie for the upcoming VR market.
Looking at initiatives like the powercore or myo equipment are put forward to realistically improve things like performance with item caching or differences in player power/access to power which are good for the health of the game under the constraints the devs are operating at within on the PS3 ecosystem.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 19:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:there was no need fo rjumping mods. just a charged jump. Hold down X for a brief time and you jumped twice as high for twice the stamina. it'd allow heavies to get over small bumps. problem sorted.
-Requiring twice the stamina for power jump further increases the divide between new and old players with access to mobility that allows them to shoot at the same time. Vets will almost always have the combat height advantage over less sp skilled players here. Proto green bottles give you much larger stamina pool and much faster stamina recharge time.
-Adding a 'hold x to jump tool tip' requires localization, which also requires altering the baked in Scaleform UI elements of the HUD. These are very unwieldy to work with in Dust according to devs. With the cloak equipment, its icons already exist.
-The cloak already affects player attributes, e.g. suit db profile. It may be easier for devs to simply make a cloak, decouple the character mesh alteration, and have it affect jump height and melee power for a limited time (e.g. 20 second window). Rather than making a charge mechanic that affects jump (and how would the charge jump be indicated on the HUD? As stated earlier, altering hud elements is time consuming for devs).
-We can fix the issues of heavies not being able to jump rails by just buffing base jump height for them without the need for modules or EQ. With the equipment approach players get two options of jump (rather than always on myo modules, which are buggy and clunky when stacking).
-Blue bottles in high slots do offer a good balance against offsetting the primary tank of min/caldari slayers and preventing gal/amarr from having jumps plus either a secondary tank or bonus damage. Read the balance factors in the OP on how pg modules take the place of blue bottles.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 19:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:This causes a potential problem with heavies which armor heavies get a huge benefit from jumpy mods by being able to clear a 3 inch curb.
Heavies can't fit EQ. Buff heavies base height and add a factor to pure armor plates which reduce jump height. After a threshold of stacking only armor HP mods they won't be able to clear rails anymore.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 19:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Immortal John Ripper wrote:A trampoline type thing would be kinda cool. imagine reaching highspots by jumping on a device. Create pathways for team mates. Although it might nerf that uneasy feeling you get when you are climbing a ladder completely helpless and exposed..
Sents don't have EQ slots so they would still need to use ladders or vehicle transport reach these vantage points.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 19:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:deezy dabest wrote:This causes a potential problem with heavies which armor heavies get a huge benefit from jumpy mods by being able to clear a 3 inch curb. Heavies can't fit EQ. Buff heavies base height and add a factor to pure armor plates which reduce jump height. That just buffs shield heavies who already have more mobility.
In keeping jump/melee as an equipment, how would you suggest handling heavies who currently don't have an EQ slot?
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.28 19:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:or even make myos low slots. least that way they can't stack cardiac regulators with them for infinite jump power or kincat melee
So jumpy Min assaults and Gal assaults who can fit myos and damage mods. I see that working out great for CQC mass drivers and plasma rifles.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 00:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:All I'm saying is that it just seems that you've ran bio suits for a couple of weeks and came to the conclusion of ..... ( meaning whatever your trying to do now ) , which is basically meaningless in an attempt to change something that doesn't need to be changed.
I'd say it's been more than a couple weeks.
I whacked you upside the head (in this melee montage) toward the beginning of August. I had been running commando melee builds some time before that--and I continue to run melee brawler fits since then. Safe to say I have experience on the subject of biotic builds.
Rattati has demonstrated with his process of hotfixes to the commando and biotic modules, that he has no intention of getting rid of the commando's niche role to wreck everything in CQC (note his decision to allow melee against HAVs in the latest patch). He recognizes that it is a combat counter role for clearing heavies out of entrenched objectives--fostering more fluid play. I am advocating;
1.) that such melee power only have a 20 second window, before having to recharge. i.e. if a heavy/assault/logi/scout can outmaneuver a commando's 1m power punch, they are safe from a 1-2 ohk.
2.) younger skill point players have access to same melee power (both to mount offensives and defend against brawlers), only at slower recharge times.
3.) increase the cost of melee builds that seek to optimize for quicker recharge at adv and pro EQ tiers (more frequent engagement windows). 2228dps for 15k-30k ISK (with other weapons equiped) is on the cheap end for something that can punch continuously. However, if you increase stamina costs, that makes access to proto green bottles mandatory--increasing power potential divides between new and old players. Let's balance around EQ recharge time.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
|
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 12:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Again, you run into issues with charged jump in Dust.
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:there was no need fo rjumping mods. just a charged jump. Hold down X for a brief time and you jumped twice as high for twice the stamina. it'd allow heavies to get over small bumps. problem sorted. -Requiring twice the stamina for power jump further increases the divide between new and old players with access to mobility that allows them to shoot at the same time. Vets will almost always have the combat height advantage over less sp skilled players here. Proto green bottles give you much larger stamina pool and much faster stamina recharge time. -Adding a 'hold x to jump tool tip' requires localization, which also requires altering the baked in Scaleform UI elements of the HUD. These are very unwieldy to work with in Dust according to devs. With the cloak equipment, its icons already exist. -The cloak already affects player attributes, e.g. suit db profile. It may be easier for devs to simply make a cloak, decouple the character mesh alteration, and have it affect jump height and melee power for a limited time (e.g. 20 second window). Rather than making a charge mechanic that affects jump (and how would the charge jump be indicated on the HUD? As stated earlier, altering hud elements is time consuming for devs). -We can fix the issues of heavies not being able to jump rails by just buffing base jump height for them without the need for modules or EQ. With the equipment approach players get two options of jump (rather than always on myo modules, which are buggy and clunky when stacking). -Blue bottles in high slots do offer a good balance against offsetting the primary tank of min/caldari slayers and preventing gal/amarr from having jumps plus either a secondary tank or bonus damage. Read the balance factors in the OP on how pg modules take the place of blue bottles.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 13:06:00 -
[32] - Quote
The intention was for jumps to be a tool that allowed for more fluid movement through maps. I really don't want to go back to a time when we didn't have them.
Let's move forward with a way that;
-reduces (but does not eliminate) direct combat use.
-gives new players more equal footing in being able to reach areas with the same EQ jump height as vets (within respective suit classes).
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 13:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
https://youtu.be/hqCR8_E64Vc?t=2m28s
Are super jumps really that bad if you can limit/control them sensibly as an activated equipment piece?
Staying with the current module version means jump must always be 'on' at a locked in height of the given number of blue bottles you have in your high slots. Go to an equipment version and players now have two options, normal jump height, and activated enhanced jumps.
We locked myos to three bottles because with 4 and 5 bottles stacking penalties did not work properly. Move them to a single EQ slot and now the devs can establish a jump height without having to deal with stacking bugs. It's controlled and manageable.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:26:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:in a way i could see it working but it'd be a whole lot less work to just remove the jump bonus from myos and buff the base jump of heavy suit lol
it was a stupid idea in the first place and its only gotten more ridiculous. leave it for April 1st as a special occassion and try keep dust a little more sensible. we're not 8yr olds dazzled by super jumps and wall running of CoD (or shouldn't be) game worked well enough without them and will work just as well with them removed again
How it worked in the past.
Team A: Gets dropship to small rooftop without ladders first. Glitches links and forge gunners spawn in.
Team B: Is boned. Denied access to fly in because of AV. Match stagnates as Team A holds superior position to feed players to objectives. Team B pushed out of city and redlined.
Going back to a system where the match can be decided by who rushes in with the dropship first is not progress. There's a lot of problems with Dust's maps. Jump tools offer a way to open up map access.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 15:27:00 -
[35] - Quote
Adding more ladders won't fix **** and requires client patches to bake them into the maps.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 17:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
...le sigh.
-Jump equipment takes weapons out of the hands of jumpers (reduces jumpy mass driver spam).
-Mass drivers are weapons designed to be fired down on targets from a high vantage point. Working as intended.
-Power jumps as equipment allow ccp devs to introduce higher jump variants (possibly 'single use' variants, e.g. small activation window with very long 40sec-1 minute recharge times that allow a merc to scale a building in a single bound--using some combination of biotics and inertia inversion tech.)
Long Term Thoughts
-Phase Out Individual Uplink Use
-Place greater emphasis on vehicles (mainly dropships) as spawn platforms and distance transport people movers.
-Specialized jump equipment used as navigating almost anywhere vertically within small horizontal reach.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 20:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I guess as a Sentinel I will be out of luck then. I guess I am back to getting stuck in rough terrain and getting trapped at spawn points I can't get out of. (Their are even autospawn points in some Ambush maps that will trap a Sentinel.)
If you are going to take away our Jump Mods, could Sentinels perhaps get slightly more native jump height so we don't get stuck so often?
Fox, already covered in this section of the 1st post.
Quote:Balance Factors:
-Scouts get a pg fitting bonus to MSDs.
-Scouts can fit both a MSD and a cloak thus removing the ability of cloaked super punches from min scouts/
-Logis use their equipment fitting bonus for the MSD
-As EQ the MSD gives the logi a buff by allowing them to improve high slot tank or ewar while retaining increased mobility with the MSD to navigate map and lay hives/links.
-Assaults and commandos do not get a fitting bonus so they are required to fit pg modules in high slots (similar to myo blue bottles in high slots) in order to fit a MSD while retaining decent fitting space for weapons and low slot modules.
-The usefulness of map navigation with a MSD to an assault or commando means they must sacrifice their 1 EQ slot which in the current meta is filled with a scanner, compact nano, allotek nano, or various uplinks. Removing this enhances the support role of logis for their team who may carry multiple equipment in addition a MSD.
-Sentinels will continue to not have an EQ slot. All suit tiers would get a jump height buff that allows them to clear rails without a need for modules or EQ.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 20:32:00 -
[38] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:Why not just give Myo's an increase to stamina consumed on jump / melee attack to counter balance it's benefit?
I.e you may jump 3x as high, but jump consumes 2.5x as much stamina.
That way you can still use the powerful abilities, just not spam them... unless you further specialize yourself with additional green drugs. (And honestly a full pill / drug fit should be viable imo as a "speed tanking" fit)
This creates further power divides between new and old players. Will paste this here again.
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:there was no need fo rjumping mods. just a charged jump. Hold down X for a brief time and you jumped twice as high for twice the stamina. it'd allow heavies to get over small bumps. problem sorted. -Requiring twice the stamina for power jump further increases the divide between new and old players with access to mobility that allows them to shoot at the same time. Vets will almost always have the combat height advantage over less sp skilled players here. Proto green bottles give you much larger stamina pool and much faster stamina recharge time. -Adding a 'hold x to jump tool tip' requires localization, which also requires altering the baked in Scaleform UI elements of the HUD. These are very unwieldy to work with in Dust according to devs. With the cloak equipment, its icons already exist. -The cloak already affects player attributes, e.g. suit db profile. It may be easier for devs to simply make a cloak, decouple the character mesh alteration, and have it affect jump height and melee power for a limited time (e.g. 20 second window). Rather than making a charge mechanic that affects jump (and how would the charge jump be indicated on the HUD? As stated earlier, altering hud elements is time consuming for devs). -We can fix the issues of heavies not being able to jump rails by just buffing base jump height for them without the need for modules or EQ. With the equipment approach players get two options of jump (rather than always on myo modules, which are buggy and clunky when stacking). -Blue bottles in high slots do offer a good balance against offsetting the primary tank of min/caldari slayers and preventing gal/amarr from having jumps plus either a secondary tank or bonus damage. Read the balance factors in the OP on how pg modules take the place of blue bottles.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 20:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
@Avallo Kantor
As I've also said many times before, keeping jump height locked into the high slot module system is too clunky.
-It prevents devs from introducing new jump height options as stacking penalties become an issue.
-It is always on. Moving to an activated equipment approach lets players use normal jumps and enhanced jumps.
________________________________________________
Before someone says something else about assaults being too powerful if we remove blue bottles from high slots allowing them to add additional shield tank or damage mods...STOP, and please read the balance section.
Quote:Balance Factors:
-Scouts get a pg fitting bonus to MSDs.
-Scouts can fit both a MSD and a cloak thus removing the ability of cloaked super punches from min scouts/
-Logis use their equipment fitting bonus for the MSD
-As EQ the MSD gives the logi a buff by allowing them to improve high slot tank or ewar while retaining increased mobility with the MSD to navigate map and lay hives/links.
-Assaults and commandos do not get a fitting bonus so they are required to fit pg modules in high slots (similar to myo blue bottles in high slots) in order to fit a MSD while retaining decent fitting space for weapons and low slot modules.
-The usefulness of map navigation with a MSD to an assault or commando means they must sacrifice their 1 EQ slot which in the current meta is filled with a scanner, compact nano, allotek nano, or various uplinks. Removing this enhances the support role of logis for their team who may carry multiple equipment in addition a MSD.
-Sentinels will continue to not have an EQ slot. All suit tiers would get a jump height buff that allows them to clear rails without a need for modules or EQ.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 20:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
Koch Rosenzweig wrote:Fix the frame rate first
Nice edit about high slot tanking. I was going to harp on someone for not reading the damned proposal for the 15th time. 
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
|
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.29 20:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
@jett it
Ow my heart...please read the bottom of this post. It was just asked, and the answer has always been in the original post.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3012654#post3012654
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.31 01:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
@Nirwanda Vaughns
Killing is just a means of communication.
I got your message team killer scrub.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 03:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Still looking for input and feedback on this.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 11:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
ROMULUS H3X wrote:*READS MORE*
Oh gosh... it gets worse.... I won't even be able to jump/punch on my assault even if I wanted too... Need to stack PGS modules in the HIghs to even use it? All because you want to prevent dual stacking? How about, nope?
Just leave them as they are... there really is no problem with the way things are fit right now.
That's already the case. High slots are currently taken up by blue bottles.
As for the 180 no-scope jump you can still do that.
Process of a tactical tool > Grab myo equipment > activate > swap to weapon mid jump > turn 180 > lights out on that sucka with your sKILLz as a based xXxMLG 420xXx G0D.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 12:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
ROMULUS H3X wrote:How about the Forge Jump shots though?
You know I enjoy doing that too.
And I've said in the OP for a while now that we should buff Heavy jump height so they can clear rails without the need moduels or EQ.
Or one new possibility, heavies can fit limited types of EQ--including this jump EQ (however, this option leaves the scope of something Devs can hotfix into the game).
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 15:51:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Doesn't mean that said piece of equipment is necessarily the best way to go about it, but I do think the idea is worth exploring, if for nothing else to reduce the usability of super bunny hopping as a combat tool as opposed to a tactical one. Yep, base height for heavies needs to be looked at before going to an EQ option. I'm pushing for the EQ option as it appears like the least resource demanding task on the devs.-Addition of a display for a charge jump mechanic (which does not exist in a current iteration) involves messing with the HUD (a thing Rattati has said is a pain in the ass to do as elements are baked in). -Language localization explaining a charge jump as an on-screen tool tip would cost time and money. -The cloak device (which the Myo EQ is modeled after) already affects character stats upon activation (the players dropsuit db profile). It may be very possible to change other character stats via the the existing cloak device. -This change may realistically be done with a hotfix instead of a client side patch which has to go through sony QA, and requires additional time and money of CCP.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:26:00 -
[47] - Quote
Updated OP with more concise outline.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 08:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
Thexan, what are you thoughts on the Devs being able to offer more variations of jump height and melee power by going to a single equipment system that is not plagued by issues with stacking bonuses.
Jadek Menaheim wrote:-By condensing blue bottles into a single module devs can offer variations that offer greater jump power vs less punch power and visa-versa. Additionally, with the single module we won't likely run into the bizarre stacking issue which occurred with 4 and 5 myofibiril stims when jump enhancement were introduced.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 23:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
V1RONXSS wrote:I like the idea with timer but full stamina drain after one jump i would like more. Making extra EQ for jumps...Than u can officially rename this game to Dust Bunnies. They better add some new EQ instead.
That still puts more power into the hands of vets who have their biotic skill tree unlocked.
Issue:
1. Compared to new player, vet with biotic tree unlocked has faster stamina regen = shorter interval between full stamina draining jumps.
2. Super clunky having to require a FULL stamina drain to jump. Even sprinting a little or punching someone will put you in a place where the 'x' button doesn't appear to work for jumps. People may think this is a glitch if it's not properly explained.
3. Players still have a gun in their hand and access to a weapon.
4. Having a player pull out EQ to jump allows opponent ability to read that they are likely going to initiate a tactical jump. More balanced gameplay.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:06:00 -
[50] - Quote
Summa Militum wrote:I came across one issue with making the jump module a piece of equipment and that issue is with Sentinels not having an equipment slot.
I remember one of the complaints from the community in the past were people not being able to walk up over a 12 inch step in a Sentinel Suit. Unless an equipment slot is added to all Sentinel Dropsuits the Sentinel is back to where they were before.
Now what I wonder is how many people actually equip a Myofib Module to a Sentinel Dropsuit for mobility purposes? If it is not a common thing then the Sentinel Dropsuit not having an equipment slot might not be an issue.
This was covered in the first post. Please read the bolded bottom point.
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Balance Factors:
-Scouts get a pg fitting bonus to MSDs.
-Scouts can fit both a MSD and a cloak thus removing the ability of cloaked super punches from min scouts/
-Logis use their equipment fitting bonus for the MSD
-As EQ the MSD gives the logi a buff by allowing them to improve high slot tank or ewar while retaining increased mobility with the MSD to navigate map and lay hives/links.
-Assaults and commandos do not get a fitting bonus so they are required to fit pg modules in high slots (similar to myo blue bottles in high slots) in order to fit a MSD while retaining decent fitting space for weapons and low slot modules.
-The usefulness of map navigation with a MSD to an assault or commando means they must sacrifice their 1 EQ slot which in the current meta is filled with a scanner, compact nano, allotek nano, or various uplinks. Removing this enhances the support role of logis for their team who may carry multiple equipment in addition to a MSD.
-Sentinels will continue to not have an EQ slot. All suit tiers would get a jump height buff that allows them to clear rails without a need for modules or EQ.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
|
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
DozersMouse XIII wrote:Having almost the damage of a core locus every punch.
Apples to oranges. You can throw a grenade farther than you can throw a 1m range punch. The most powerful melee fits are on commandos which have pretty high db profiles. Moving melee to EQ will also eliminate the issue of cloak punching on scouts.
DozersMouse XIII wrote:I think jump and melee should be 2 different modules
Some people want the melee damage without the jump.
The way they are now just makes them too powerful.
As it has been covered many times before, it doesn't make logical sense why you should separate muscle strength enhancing modules. Leg power and arm power are enhanced at the same time, as they should be.
People have issue with the always on attribute of myos for jumps. Moving to an 'activated' EQ approach gives people two options for jumps in the same dropsuit. A push-x charged jump has issues which are covered thoroughly in the first post.
An 'activated' EQ system for myo power is built on the premise of waves of opportunity. You have a window to use both enhanced jumps and melee power before you have to let the equipment recharge (similar to how the cloak EQ has to recharge to a minimum level before you can reactivate).
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
Golden Day wrote:How 'bout no and adapt
Seriously though why would you want to make it a equipment its a biotic upgrade to your arms and legs deal with it. Its not that hard to kill someone who is jumping.....
Well that's super constructive mate. Thanks.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 22:40:00 -
[53] - Quote
@Golden Day
If you're not going to elaborate, I do thank you for the topic bump.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 00:09:00 -
[54] - Quote
IMMORTAL WAR HERO wrote:join necrom0ngers
join Manfister United F.C.
I hear it is the premier fisting club in New Eden. 
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.08 14:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
maybe deadcatz wrote:Or just do it like this.
Take the jump height of a cal heavy with 3 proto myos,assign that height to a single myo,then make the stack penalty for jump height 100% percent(making possible to just include one module and be able to jump without sacrificing damage mods,sheild regen,sheild tank) so when any heavy equips one myo,they get the jump height of three of them at the same tier.
Assaults get their myos compressed to only 1.5 of the triple stacked proto myo height in one module.
Scouts get a little more or less(since I never ran scouts with myos.)
Tldr
Compress the jump bonus of three myos into one myo and max the jump bonus stack penalty to 100%.(so all you need is one myo to jump high but can't stack them for insane heights)
Tones down the super jumping without screwing around and nerfing it to the ground.
Also rebalances myos as more heavy friendly modules
Yes, it reigns in some of the issue of hit detection breaking within CQC when a player can have both a gun out AND have on demand jumps. It still brings us backward in many ways when removing map mobility (which I want to preserve and enhance jump height ONLY when player's ability to hold a ranged weapon is not an option because they are holding 'active' equipment to power those super jumps).
Personally, I would opt to rename this single module to Inertia Burst and remove punching power (that is if we are not buffing the base jump height of sentinels). Myofirbiril EQ would still be implemented in this case. Combined with Inertia Burst, Myo EQ would further enhance jumping ability to navigate the map (and provide supercharged melee power, which the Inertia Burst doesn't provide) all within a 20 sec window of operation.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.09 23:58:00 -
[56] - Quote
Summa Militum wrote:Also, are you one of the jumpy people?
Spotted the jumper.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 01:03:00 -
[57] - Quote
It's a 20 second window. Speaking from experience you can do a lot of damage in 20 seconds. The cooldown just creates understood waves of opportunities to combat these melee beasts in CQC.
https://youtu.be/b9QL5vRF5FQ?t=18s
-I am already advocating for a base jump height buff to all frames (heavies particularly) so they can clear rails.
-Increased mobility with myos help address a lot of issues with poor Dust map design/balance; however, increased vertical mobility with a weapon out is clearly an issue in terms of breaking CQC hit detection. Moving Myos to equipment gets a ranged weapon out of peoples' hands and preserves the benefit of map mobility.
-CCP Devs are stymied by the module stacking system when it comes to introducing variations of jumps. By condensing blue bottles into a single module devs can offer variations that offer greater jump power vs less punch power and visa-versa. Additionally, with the single module we won't likely run into the bizarre stacking issue which occurred with 4 and 5 myofibiril stims when jump enhancement were introduced.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
Jadek Menaheim
1nner.Heaven
8
|
Posted - 2015.12.10 01:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
As you note, coding is going to be one of the cons for a charge jump.
Jadek Menaheim first post wrote:
-Addition of a display for a charge jump mechanic (which does not exist in a current iteration) involves messing with the HUD (a thing Rattati has said is a pain in the ass to do as elements are baked in).
-Language localization explaining a charge jump as an on-screen tool tip would cost time and money.
However, there may be room here to have both a charge mechanic for regular jumps (with myo taken out of high slots) and enhanced super jumps/melee with active charge EQ.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
|
|
|
| |
|