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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
   |
Posted - 2015.08.20 05:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds persuaded me to help test out a little myth that has been apparently circulating and we decided to hit the books (or controller as it were) and get to the bottom of this. Now, with the majority of my tests I use the Scientific Method, which anyone who's gone to grade school should know this but if you don't then here's a flow-chart provided by ScienceBuddies: http://www.cdn.sciencebuddies.org/Files/5084/7/2013-updated_scientific-method-steps_v6_noheader.png
So, we started off with our preliminary question and focal point of the test: "Is the Scrambler Rifle doing the correct amount of damage to Armor?".
We did some background research on plausible theories, the two prominent ones being that either A) The weapon's damage is messed up. B) The damage profile of laser weaponry is messed up.
Forming a hypothesis for both and then proceeding to testing procedures, we used a Flux Grenade to rid the suit of shields and let it rest at full armor, firing a single shot each time and then cross checking between frames on the recorded video for armor values at the moment the shot hit as to not factor in repair rate as a variable.
Here's our results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CgTyBQgp5PLRG0wWFlRUitr9O0Gqawn-yue5iGpeb9s/edit?usp=sharing
We noticed that the Scrambler Rifle was indeed doing more damage than it was supposed to, stat-wise, so we needed to control against Hypothesis B: The damage profile theory. To do this we needed another laser weapon to check and see if the damage profile was busted. Insert: Assault Scrambler Pistol. It did -exactly- the amount of damage it's supposed to, stat-wise, which means that the damage profile was not flawed, but the Scrambler Rifle may very well have been.
Initially our theory was that the excess damage was caused by micro-charging: the slight depression in the finger when firing. The miniscule amount of time it takes for you to press the R1 button, and lift your finger, is enough to cause the weapon to think it is charging and fire a shot that does more damage than slated stat-wise. After a few tests, and a roll-back of the video footage, we can confirm that this is absolutely the case and is very easy to replicate.
See Video Footage: https://youtu.be/ub69fHGFFNg
So, for those of you with a fat or heavy trigger finger, congratulations! You actually have a genetic advantage with the Scrambler Rifle in Dust 514 
Thanks for all the support guys, let's fix Dust 514
:D
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
380
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Posted - 2015.08.20 05:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Always glad to help test out DUST SCIENCE!
Also...the micro-charges could explain the anomalous heat buildup I was seeing during the tests I did of the Scrambler Rifle Overheats at different Rates of Fire.
To what degree this modifies heat buildup though will be difficult to measure without a more accurate/precise heat buildup indicator to measure from.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 05:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Always glad to help test out DUST SCIENCE!
Also...the micro-charges could explain the anomalous heat buildup I was seeing during the tests I did of the Scrambler Rifle Overheats at different Rates of Fire.
To what degree this modifies heat buildup though will be difficult to measure without a more accurate/precise heat buildup indicator to measure from.
Well, we know that heat buildup is on a per-second rather than per-shot basis, so simply holding the trigger down for any duration is adding heat to the weapon. If you can pin-point those minute amounts of time between each trigger pull with consistency and reliability (you -WILL- need a modded controller to test this) than you can perhaps pinpoint the numbers more accurately :D
Thanks for all the support guys, let's fix Dust 514
:D
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.20 05:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Always glad to help test out DUST SCIENCE!
Also...the micro-charges could explain the anomalous heat buildup I was seeing during the tests I did of the Scrambler Rifle Overheats at different Rates of Fire.
To what degree this modifies heat buildup though will be difficult to measure without a more accurate/precise heat buildup indicator to measure from. Well, we know that heat buildup is on a per-second rather than per-shot basis, so simply holding the trigger down for any duration is adding heat to the weapon. If you can pin-point those minute amounts of time between each trigger pull with consistency and reliability (you -WILL- need a modded controller to test this) than you can perhaps pinpoint the numbers more accurately :D
The minimum time the trigger must be pressed is 40 miliseconds for the weapon to fire. In theory 35 will work but the PS3 monitors in 10 ms increments making it very unreliable.
There IS a difference between 40 ms and 80 ms. I suppose I could hop on right quick and test a few different timers for you if you like. Please answer quick as I will be heading for bed in roughly 30 minutes.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
380
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Posted - 2015.08.20 05:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Always glad to help test out DUST SCIENCE!
Also...the micro-charges could explain the anomalous heat buildup I was seeing during the tests I did of the Scrambler Rifle Overheats at different Rates of Fire.
To what degree this modifies heat buildup though will be difficult to measure without a more accurate/precise heat buildup indicator to measure from. Well, we know that heat buildup is on a per-second rather than per-shot basis, so simply holding the trigger down for any duration is adding heat to the weapon. If you can pin-point those minute amounts of time between each trigger pull with consistency and reliability (you -WILL- need a modded controller to test this) than you can perhaps pinpoint the numbers more accurately :D The minimum time the trigger must be pressed is 40 miliseconds for the weapon to fire. In theory 35 will work but the PS3 monitors in 10 ms increments making it very unreliable. There IS a difference between 40 ms and 80 ms. I suppose I could hop on right quick and test a few different timers for you if you like. Please answer quick as I will be heading for bed in roughly 30 minutes.
Are you 100% sure on the 40ms...I ran several trials (not so long ago) to try to put this issue together, with limited success...oversampling wasn't eliminated on the ScR (although it was eliminated on the TacAR)...additionally, heat data suggests micro-charges came into-play (Searching for the video files to see if it shows up)
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.20 05:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:deezy dabest wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Always glad to help test out DUST SCIENCE!
Also...the micro-charges could explain the anomalous heat buildup I was seeing during the tests I did of the Scrambler Rifle Overheats at different Rates of Fire.
To what degree this modifies heat buildup though will be difficult to measure without a more accurate/precise heat buildup indicator to measure from. Well, we know that heat buildup is on a per-second rather than per-shot basis, so simply holding the trigger down for any duration is adding heat to the weapon. If you can pin-point those minute amounts of time between each trigger pull with consistency and reliability (you -WILL- need a modded controller to test this) than you can perhaps pinpoint the numbers more accurately :D The minimum time the trigger must be pressed is 40 miliseconds for the weapon to fire. In theory 35 will work but the PS3 monitors in 10 ms increments making it very unreliable. There IS a difference between 40 ms and 80 ms. I suppose I could hop on right quick and test a few different timers for you if you like. Please answer quick as I will be heading for bed in roughly 30 minutes. Are you 100% sure on the 40ms...I ran several trials (not so long ago) to try to put this issue together, with limited success...oversampling wasn't eliminated on the ScR (although it was eliminated on the TacAR)...additionally, heat data suggests micro-charges came into-play (Searching for the video files to see if it shows up)
Yes 40 ms is the minimum time for the weapon to fire. You also have to take delay between presses into account to make everything balance out nicely. When it comes down to oversampling make sure you work in increments of 10ms stay within the refresh rates of the PS3.
I have probably already said too much so I will not give out my exact numbers. I am some what anxious to test actual damage versus charge time. Is there any timings you would like to know the numbers on? I am thinking about going with 40, 80, 120, and 240 for now to get a nice little chart going.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
380
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 05:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:deezy dabest wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Always glad to help test out DUST SCIENCE!
Also...the micro-charges could explain the anomalous heat buildup I was seeing during the tests I did of the Scrambler Rifle Overheats at different Rates of Fire.
To what degree this modifies heat buildup though will be difficult to measure without a more accurate/precise heat buildup indicator to measure from. Well, we know that heat buildup is on a per-second rather than per-shot basis, so simply holding the trigger down for any duration is adding heat to the weapon. If you can pin-point those minute amounts of time between each trigger pull with consistency and reliability (you -WILL- need a modded controller to test this) than you can perhaps pinpoint the numbers more accurately :D The minimum time the trigger must be pressed is 40 miliseconds for the weapon to fire. In theory 35 will work but the PS3 monitors in 10 ms increments making it very unreliable. There IS a difference between 40 ms and 80 ms. I suppose I could hop on right quick and test a few different timers for you if you like. Please answer quick as I will be heading for bed in roughly 30 minutes. Are you 100% sure on the 40ms...I ran several trials (not so long ago) to try to put this issue together, with limited success...oversampling wasn't eliminated on the ScR (although it was eliminated on the TacAR)...additionally, heat data suggests micro-charges came into-play (Searching for the video files to see if it shows up) Yes 40 ms is the minimum time for the weapon to fire. You also have to take delay between presses into account to make everything balance out nicely. When it comes down to oversampling make sure you work in increments of 10ms stay within the refresh rates of the PS3. I have probably already said too much so I will not give out my exact numbers. I am some what anxious to test actual damage versus charge time. Is there any timings you would like to know the numbers on? I am thinking about going with 40, 80, 120, and 240 for now to get a nice little chart going.
Well, with what you know (and with the knowledge I worked in proper increments), you should be able to work out what I did (although we probably should eliminate the specifics from the quotes and posts to be safe). but yeah, more experimental data is always a good thing xD.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.20 06:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
Well, with what you know (and with the knowledge I worked in proper increments), you should be able to work out what I did (although we probably should eliminate the specifics from the quotes and posts to be safe). but yeah, more experimental data is always a good thing xD.
I scrubbed my posts.
I will drop you a mail in game once I have posted my video and spread sheets for discussion.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
380
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 06:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
Well, with what you know (and with the knowledge I worked in proper increments), you should be able to work out what I did (although we probably should eliminate the specifics from the quotes and posts to be safe). but yeah, more experimental data is always a good thing xD.
I scrubbed my posts. I will drop you a mail in game once I have posted my video and spread sheets for discussion.
Understood, good luck
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 06:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
So I have an idea what differences I should be looking for that caused your sampling issues:
What is the refresh rate on your mouse?
Are you using BT or USB to connect to the console?
I think one of these may be the answer to why you ran into issues.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
380
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Posted - 2015.08.20 06:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:So I have an idea what differences I should be looking for that caused your sampling issues:
What is the refresh rate on your mouse?
Are you using BT or USB to connect to the console?
I think one of these may be the answer to why you ran into issues.
I measured the inputs on my setup on the PC through Bluetooth to make sure I was getting the desired result. I'm not using a mouse, but another peripheral (that I originally got to use an Xbox Control on the PS3), but the input onto the PC was giving me the expected result (and the measured PS3 results where very similar)
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 06:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
lol dust players never cease to amaze me. I don't think that I've ever seen anything like this on any other game. I guess maybe it's the MMO crowd.
Good job though, no troll :)
Shield tanking is hard mode /period.
> Check RND out here
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 06:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
I guess the more micro charge you fire with, the more slowly you will fire.
Though it's interesting to see that the in game dps will be more than just the base damage multiplied by the users firing rate.
Good video. This probably happens with all charge weapons, such as nova knives and ion pistols. |
Edgar Reinhart
Resheph Interstellar Strategy
Gallente Federation
131
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 09:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I guess the more micro charge you fire with, the more slowly you will fire.
Though it's interesting to see that the in game dps will be more than just the base damage multiplied by the users firing rate.
Good video. This probably happens with all charge weapons, such as nova knives and ion pistols.
Pretty certain I remember someone pointing out that this was the case for the Ion Pistol too a while back....... Every shot had small amount of bonus charge damage on it.
and now I've mentioned the Ion Pistol in a Scrambler thread I need to mention the idea of swapping their charge shot overheat mechanics over that has been floated round, it's the law. |
xxwhitedevilxx M
Maphia Clan Corporation
3
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Posted - 2015.08.20 09:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
That slo-mo! As a Scrambler fan that's the best I could ever ask! |
Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
850
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 09:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
i've found that semi-charged shots run damage un-proptionately to a full charged shot.
But by how much does a semi-charge actually build up the damage? |
Reign Omega
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 09:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:lol dust players never cease to amaze me. I don't think that I've ever seen anything like this on any other game. I guess maybe it's the MMO crowd.
Good job though, no troll :)
It's the mmo crowd combined with the competitive gaming crowd. You haven't seen number crunching until you've been to a live game tourney.
Hell naw...to the naw naw naw...hell to the naw.
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CHET CHEWS
175
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Posted - 2015.08.20 10:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here 
I was so close sax >.<
Retired till further notice
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 10:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
CHET CHEWS wrote:My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here
all other rifles fire when you press R1. hold the rigger and bullets fly.
The scrambler rifle fires when you release R1. Because you need to hold the trigger for a charge shot, rounds only fly once youe release the tirgger. The longer the charge the increase in damage.
No matter how quickly you hold and release the trigger, there is some damage build up. That makes the scrambler do more damage by about 10 hit points more than intended per single shot.
good work Aeon. I am a staunch defender of the scrambler rifle, and good work on catching un-intended designs.
Propose a charge damage delay? No charge damage increase below two rounds. Single shots do correct damage. Charge threshold starts at three, everybody wins.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 10:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
CHET CHEWS wrote:My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here
It is just a test to show that no matter what when you fire the ScR it adds some charge damage meaning that it is almost impossible to fire the weapon at the stated damage.
I am working on my spreadsheet right now of charge damage over time. I will be generating a spread sheet with 5 shots each against shields and armor with increases of 20 milliseconds per shot. This should be very interesting as I feel like there is a bit of variation in applied damage thanks to translation between the client and the server. That's the one that is going to give some real headaches.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.20 11:04:00 -
[21] - Quote
CHET CHEWS wrote:My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here
Pretty much how Tesfa explained it. 'Pulling the trigger' as it were will cause the Scrambler Rifle to charge the shot by a miniscule amount unless you are -lightning quick- on the button press and it results, more often than not in my case, in higher damage than what is stated on the stats screen.
This isn't to say that the Scrambler Rifle is OP, should be buffed/nerfed, or anything of the sort. It is just an interesting little quirk we picked up on when testing something completely different! I love science :D
Shadowed Cola wrote:i've found that semi-charged shots run damage un-proptionately to a full charged shot.
But by how much does a semi-charge actually build up the damage?
I didn't do extensive testing but from what we saw we were looking at a 10 - 15% increase in damage just on normal trigger pulling per shot. If I have time today I might do more and see what kind of results we come up with many more 'rounds' being fired down range in rapid sequence and calculate the damage values between each shot to see what sort of damage we're doing in a panic state.
Thanks for all the support guys, let's fix Dust 514
:D
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 11:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:CHET CHEWS wrote:My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here all other rifles fire when you press R1. hold the rigger and bullets fly. The scrambler rifle fires when you release R1. Because you need to hold the trigger for a charge shot, rounds only fly once youe release the tirgger. The longer the charge the increase in damage. No matter how quickly you hold and release the trigger, there is some damage build up. That makes the scrambler do more damage by about 10 hit points more than intended per single shot. good work Aeon. I am a staunch defender of the scrambler rifle, and good work on catching un-intended designs. Propose a charge damage delay? No charge damage increase below two rounds. Single shots do correct damage. Charge threshold starts at three, everybody wins.
I disagree with needing this fix. What you are talking about here is a mess on a weapon that is already difficult for newbies.
The damage multiplier at full charge is 3.5
The full charge time is 2 seconds. For simplicity we will say 2000 milliseconds hold for a full charge.
3.5 / 2000 = .00175% increase per millisecond.
The DS3 has a refresh rate of 10 milliseconds. This makes the maximum variable .0175% based on your hold time versus refresh.
It takes roughly 40 ms of hold time for the press to register and begin charging.
So what we end up with is:
50 ms hold = .0175% base charge up from a very fast trigger tap.
70 ms hold = .0525% base charge up on a slightly slower trigger tap.
At 71.5 base hp damage you end up with:
71.5 * 1.0175 = 72.75125 (*1.2 = 87.3015) (*.8 = 58.201)
71.5 * 1.0525 = 75.25375 (*1.2 = 90.3045) (*.8 = 60.203)
The 2 to 3 extra HP that comes out of this is hardly worth an insanely over complicated band aid to feel like something has been accomplished. In reality it is the profile multipliers which spreads this gap to a point of even being notable.
You should also remember that this increase in cycle time lowers the RoF effectively turning these into a near dead lock on the DPS.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.20 11:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
This post is informative, and interesting.
Excellent work to the people who made it happen.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
951
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Posted - 2015.08.20 11:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
So if the ScR shot would only deal "charged damage" when it's fully charged and not deal more than what's written on the stats when it's half way charged (or just a tiny bit), it would do the amount of damage it's supposed to right?
Might be a great way to make people stop whining about my beloved ScR :)
Nice discovery! Good job on that. Now stop beeing useless blueberries on the field and FIGHT!
Bring your daughter... TO THE SLAUGHTER !
- Sequal Rise
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 12:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Aeon, if you manage to do more testing, please would you test scrambler rifle dps by firing at a close target by spamming the trigger (realistically) and then using the damage done and time taken to calculate actual dps? Please also do this with an assault variant rifle (preferably CR, RR or AR) and a TacAR for comparison.
If you were able to fit this into your tests it would be awesome.
I don't know if you have an unusually fast or slow trigger finger, but it would be really interesting to see actual in game dps for semi auto weapons.
I suspect the scrambler rifles will do the most dps.
I feel that if the scrambler rifle were truly OP, more people would use it. I know this thread isn't calling for a nerf. I just think it would be a shame if the gun did get nerfed without the whole picture being taken into account. Rattati has the spawn efficiency numbers, which would probably be the most telling. If it does need a nerf, these investigations will help determine what to do. I suspect toning down damage or rate of fire threshold would be better balances, rather than messing with charge mechanics. |
deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 12:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
Sequal's Back wrote:So if the ScR shot would only deal "charged damage" when it's fully charged and not deal more than what's written on the stats when it's half way charged (or just a tiny bit), it would do the amount of damage it's supposed to right?
Might be a great way to make people stop whining about my beloved ScR :)
Nice discovery! Good job on that. Now stop beeing useless blueberries on the field and FIGHT!
I am starting to believe that increasing the charge time by 25% would slow the rate of gain enough to make it so the user would have to mean to charge the weapon to see any amount of gain on the damage.
The other option is a simple 5 tier modifier for the charge up to accumulate damage would be a seemingly simple fix while keeping the overall feel of the weapon exactly the same.
The way a 5 tier system wold work.
Tier 0 = No hold = 1x damage
Tier 1 = 500 ms hold = 1.625x
Tier 2 = 1000 ms hold = 2.25x
Tier 3 = 1500 ms hold = 2.875x
Tier 4 = 2000 ms hold = full 3.5x damage modifier
Any charge below the next level would be rounded down. This alleviates the need for a complicated progression that turns into a mess when adjusting charge time and make everything function nice and smoothly.
I could agree with this adjustment 100%
EDIT: I seriously think I just fixed the ScR. Unfortunately there is slim to no chance of this being implemented as replacing what CCP considers to be "working as intended".
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.20 12:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Aeon, if you manage to do more testing, please would you test scrambler rifle dps by firing at a close target by spamming the trigger (realistically) and then using the damage done and time taken to calculate actual dps? Please also do this with an assault variant rifle (preferably CR, RR or AR) and a TacAR for comparison.
If you were able to fit this into your tests it would be awesome.
I don't know if you have an unusually fast or slow trigger finger, but it would be really interesting to see actual in game dps for semi auto weapons.
I suspect the scrambler rifles will do the most dps.
I feel that if the scrambler rifle were truly OP, more people would use it. I know this thread isn't calling for a nerf. I just think it would be a shame if the gun did get nerfed without the whole picture being taken into account. Rattati has the spawn efficiency numbers, which would probably be the most telling. If it does need a nerf, these investigations will help determine what to do. I suspect toning down damage or rate of fire threshold would be better balances, rather than messing with charge mechanics.
The set rate of fire on the ScR actually falls on a line that makes it 100% impossible to apply the calculated DPS. You will either go slightly over thanks to the conversation we are having here or you will under sample thanks to the hardware limits.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.20 15:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Great work Aeon. This is a step in the right direction in understanding the Scrambler Rifle so we can properly tune it.
Sgt Kirk's Propaganda Youtube Channel
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
Rise Of Legion.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.20 18:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
3 years into this game and we are still discovering what are actually pretty fundamental mechanics of the game......
I both love this and hate this about DUST.
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.08.20 19:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
I think we could have something similar to how the charge sniper works. Perhaps under a certain threshold (say 20%) the scrambler does base damage, and we shorten the charge damage multiplier from 0%-100% to 20%-100% meaning you still get relatively the same amount of damage from a charge shot from 59%-100% charge without getting the microcharge values under 20%.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Koch Rosenzweig
S.K.I.L.L OF G.O.D
581
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Posted - 2015.08.20 19:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
F*CK MATHS
D4GG3R's FAN - - - SOG's Director & FC
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 20:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:I think we could have something similar to how the charge sniper works. Perhaps under a certain threshold (say 20%) the scrambler does base damage, and we shorten the charge damage multiplier from 0%-100% to 20%-100% meaning you still get relatively the same amount of damage from a charge shot from 59%-100% charge without getting the microcharge values under 20%.
Why though? What's been discovered isn't a bug. It doesn't need fixing.
If you think the scrambler does too much damage, just reduce the damage. |
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.21 02:00:00 -
[33] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Aeon, if you manage to do more testing, please would you test scrambler rifle dps by firing at a close target by spamming the trigger (realistically) and then using the damage done and time taken to calculate actual dps? Please also do this with an assault variant rifle (preferably CR, RR or AR) and a TacAR for comparison.
If you were able to fit this into your tests it would be awesome.
I don't know if you have an unusually fast or slow trigger finger, but it would be really interesting to see actual in game dps for semi auto weapons.
I suspect the scrambler rifles will do the most dps.
I feel that if the scrambler rifle were truly OP, more people would use it. I know this thread isn't calling for a nerf. I just think it would be a shame if the gun did get nerfed without the whole picture being taken into account. Rattati has the spawn efficiency numbers, which would probably be the most telling. If it does need a nerf, these investigations will help determine what to do. I suspect toning down damage or rate of fire threshold would be better balances, rather than messing with charge mechanics.
That's reasonable. I'll see what I can do when I get back home tonight :)
Thanks for all the support guys, let's fix Dust 514
:D
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Boot Booter
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.21 03:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:CHET CHEWS wrote:My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here all other rifles fire when you press R1. hold the rigger and bullets fly. The scrambler rifle fires when you release R1. Because you need to hold the trigger for a charge shot, rounds only fly once youe release the tirgger. The longer the charge the increase in damage. No matter how quickly you hold and release the trigger, there is some damage build up. That makes the scrambler do more damage by about 10 hit points more than intended per single shot. good work Aeon. I am a staunch defender of the scrambler rifle, and good work on catching un-intended designs. Propose a charge damage delay? No charge damage increase below two rounds. Single shots do correct damage. Charge threshold starts at three, everybody wins. I disagree with needing this fix. What you are talking about here is a mess on a weapon that is already difficult for newbies. The damage multiplier at full charge is 3.5 The full charge time is 2 seconds. For simplicity we will say 2000 milliseconds hold for a full charge. 3.5 / 2000 = .00175% increase per millisecond. The DS3 has a refresh rate of 10 milliseconds. This makes the maximum variable .0175% based on your hold time versus refresh. It takes roughly 40 ms of hold time for the press to register and begin charging. So what we end up with is: 50 ms hold = .0175% base charge up from a very fast trigger tap. 70 ms hold = .0525% base charge up on a slightly slower trigger tap. At 71.5 base hp damage you end up with: 71.5 * 1.0175 = 72.75125 (*1.2 = 87.3015) (*.8 = 58.201) 71.5 * 1.0525 = 75.25375 (*1.2 = 90.3045) (*.8 = 60.203) The 2 to 3 extra HP that comes out of this is hardly worth an insanely over complicated band aid to feel like something has been accomplished. In reality it is the profile multipliers which spreads this gap to a point of even being notable. You should also remember that this increase in cycle time lowers the RoF effectively turning these into a near dead lock on the DPS.
OK...
1) you are assuming a linear build in damage. Maybe it's not... Would be interested in seeing this investigated.
2) evidence from this thread has showed damage upwards of + 10 (or whatever it was) not simply +2.
Just saying. |
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.21 04:35:00 -
[35] - Quote
Okay. So, tested to see what happens in rapid fire or 'Panic Mode' conditions in which I accidentally killed Thaddeus Reynolds a few times during testing (sorry bro!) in order to illustrate what sort of increased damage occurs from Micro-Charging when firing rapidly.
You can see the results of that in Sheet 2 on the page which I will link again here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CgTyBQgp5PLRG0wWFlRUitr9O0Gqawn-yue5iGpeb9s/edit?usp=sharing
VERY VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU READ THIS PART AS IT ANTICIPATES SOME ARGUMENTATIVE VIEWS
I know a lot of you will be saying "but repair rate" - so we anticipated for that and factored it in using the in-game HP readout rather than mathematics. This was to prevent from rounding errors in the mathematics and the results were true to what happened in game.
I also know that a lot of you will be thinking, "Okay, well why does it say you shot nine 'rounds' but only recorded seven entries in some of the tests". His suit could only take eight rounds of fire (though statistically speaking it is -SUPPOSED- to take nine) before dying so there were some instances in which he lived (when I fired seven rounds) and some instances when I kept firing after he was already dead (when I fired nine rounds).
Beyond that, any more than seven rounds would not have provided any usable data as his HP was so low that the next round would have killed him -no matter what-, so we opted to simply put 'DEAD' as the result of that.
VERY VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU READ THE ABOVE AS IT ANTICIPATES SOME ARGUMENTATIVE VIEWS
Now, down to the facts of the test: Mathematically speaking, his suit had enough armor (449) to survive nine rounds from my Quafe Scrambler Rifle as it is only supposed to do 54.6 damage per shot, even with the Warbarge Damage Bonus. Due to micro-charging when firing the Scrambler Rifle, he could only survive eight, as each round did higher than expected damage.
The AMOUNT of extra damage ranged from 4-7% - the equivalent of having a free enhanced or complex damage mod.
So, yes, there is some weight to stating that the Scrambler Rifle does more damage than it is supposed to - but whether or not that is over-powered or should be nerfed is debatable and argumentative. We're not here to say that, we're only here to provide the facts behind the weapon and the very simple fact is that due to Micro-Charging, YES, the Scrambler Rifle does more damage than it shows on paper.
Thanks for all the support guys, let's fix Dust 514
:D
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.21 04:41:00 -
[36] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote: YES, the Scrambler Rifle does more damage than it shows on paper. [/b][/i]
That's all we needed.
Alright boys, take her away.
Once again good job Arkena.
Sgt Kirk's Propaganda Youtube Channel
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
7
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Posted - 2015.08.21 05:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote: YES, the Scrambler Rifle does more damage than it shows on paper. [/b][/i] That's all we needed. Alright boys, take her away. Once again good job Arkena.
Got damn you Gallente!!! We could of gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling potatoes!!!
"The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited."
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
12
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Posted - 2015.08.21 05:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Reign Omega wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:lol dust players never cease to amaze me. I don't think that I've ever seen anything like this on any other game. I guess maybe it's the MMO crowd.
Good job though, no troll :) It's the mmo crowd combined with the competitive gaming crowd. You haven't seen number crunching until you've been to a live game tourney.
It's impressive, but I'm still more impressed by the fighting game community.
How the hell do they come up with stuff like this?
From 00:35 to 00:47 is a SINGLE COMBO (With two different videos showing different starting positions). Right afterwards is transitions for IF they try to react out of it in different ways.
Yes, I'm a Melty Blood fan, and H-Aoko is my favorite character. Kicking Ass never gets old. Love me a character with heavy zoning, meterless combos and seamless transitions into rushdown.
Currently listening to: Tsukihime OST
Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
384
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Posted - 2015.08.21 05:51:00 -
[39] - Quote
@Deezy Debest
A fairly large variance appeared when I used my device on the PS3 again, can't wait for your test data to be recorded...to see if this is just a problem on my end or something common). The Data recorded is also on the spreadsheet Aeon Posted, it seems to suggest that damage scales linearly with the charge, but more data is necessary to test this.
Edit:
It's also worth it to note that it appears to generate additional heat based on past data; however, more data needs to be gathered on the subject
Also...yes there is massive variance when I use the turbo functions, and I'm not sure what causes it, but I test the scripts on the PC to ensure that they are outputting correctly...the ScR is the only weapon where measured data has any noticeable variance at all.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.21 07:29:00 -
[40] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:@Deezy Debest A fairly large variance appeared when I used my device on the PS3 again, can't wait for your test data to be recorded...to see if this is just a problem on my end or something common). The Data recorded is also on the spreadsheet Aeon Posted, it seems to suggest that damage scales linearly with the charge, but more data is necessary to test this. Edit: It's also worth it to note that it appears to generate additional heat based on past data; however, more data needs to be gathered on the subject Also...yes there is massive variance when I use the turbo functions, and I'm not sure what causes it, but I test the scripts on the PC to ensure that they are outputting correctly...the ScR is the only weapon where measured data has any noticeable variance at all.
I'm wondering if client <-> server latency has anything to do with it.
Thanks for all the support guys, let's fix Dust 514
:D
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.08.21 07:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Another good test. I'd be careful saying it does more damage than it's supposed to. That's not quite right. It does more damage than it appears on paper, from our previous understanding of the way the weapon worked.
As is too often the case in Dust, the in game information poorly describes how things really work.
It would be interesting to know how quickly you fired those 7 or 8 shots. |
DeadlyAztec11
8
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 08:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
I always thought this was the case. Though I thought about it for the Ion Pistol.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.21 16:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:deezy dabest wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:CHET CHEWS wrote:My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here all other rifles fire when you press R1. hold the rigger and bullets fly. The scrambler rifle fires when you release R1. Because you need to hold the trigger for a charge shot, rounds only fly once youe release the tirgger. The longer the charge the increase in damage. No matter how quickly you hold and release the trigger, there is some damage build up. That makes the scrambler do more damage by about 10 hit points more than intended per single shot. good work Aeon. I am a staunch defender of the scrambler rifle, and good work on catching un-intended designs. Propose a charge damage delay? No charge damage increase below two rounds. Single shots do correct damage. Charge threshold starts at three, everybody wins. I disagree with needing this fix. What you are talking about here is a mess on a weapon that is already difficult for newbies. The damage multiplier at full charge is 3.5 The full charge time is 2 seconds. For simplicity we will say 2000 milliseconds hold for a full charge. 3.5 / 2000 = .00175% increase per millisecond. The DS3 has a refresh rate of 10 milliseconds. This makes the maximum variable .0175% based on your hold time versus refresh. It takes roughly 40 ms of hold time for the press to register and begin charging. So what we end up with is: 50 ms hold = .0175% base charge up from a very fast trigger tap. 70 ms hold = .0525% base charge up on a slightly slower trigger tap. At 71.5 base hp damage you end up with: 71.5 * 1.0175 = 72.75125 (*1.2 = 87.3015) (*.8 = 58.201) 71.5 * 1.0525 = 75.25375 (*1.2 = 90.3045) (*.8 = 60.203) The 2 to 3 extra HP that comes out of this is hardly worth an insanely over complicated band aid to feel like something has been accomplished. In reality it is the profile multipliers which spreads this gap to a point of even being notable. You should also remember that this increase in cycle time lowers the RoF effectively turning these into a near dead lock on the DPS. OK... 1) you are assuming a linear build in damage. Maybe it's not... Would be interested in seeing this investigated. 2) evidence from this thread has showed damage upwards of + 10 (or whatever it was) not simply +2. Just saying.
To point 1
If this thread is correct then it most certainly is linear as there is no other way damage would be accumulated from just the time it takes a player takes to release the trigger. My preliminary testing has shown that it does accumulate in a uniform fashion. I will be releasing a full video and test results some time over the weekend as so far I have not had time to complete the test.
To point number 2
That is why I broke down the damage based on a 10ms cycle. Actual damage is decided by how fast the player presses and releases the trigger. Based on my numbers you could actually reverse engineer based on your damage and figure out a good estimate of how long you are actually holding the trigger. To give a little more perspective on those numbers it takes roughly 3 to 400 milliseconds to blink. The +2 was only meant to be a base for showing the difference between different players not as an actual measure of the damage being applied.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 16:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:@Deezy Debest A fairly large variance appeared when I used my device on the PS3 again, can't wait for your test data to be recorded...to see if this is just a problem on my end or something common). The Data recorded is also on the spreadsheet Aeon Posted, it seems to suggest that damage scales linearly with the charge, but more data is necessary to test this. Edit: It's also worth it to note that it appears to generate additional heat based on past data; however, more data needs to be gathered on the subject Also...yes there is massive variance when I use the turbo functions, and I'm not sure what causes it, but I test the scripts on the PC to ensure that they are outputting correctly...the ScR is the only weapon where measured data has any noticeable variance at all.
If you are going to be online soon let me know. I would love to go ahead and record test data from both views and discuss some things.
I do see a bit of room for variance in your hardware but can not say for sure without a little more information.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
385
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 16:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:@Deezy Debest A fairly large variance appeared when I used my device on the PS3 again, can't wait for your test data to be recorded...to see if this is just a problem on my end or something common). The Data recorded is also on the spreadsheet Aeon Posted, it seems to suggest that damage scales linearly with the charge, but more data is necessary to test this. Edit: It's also worth it to note that it appears to generate additional heat based on past data; however, more data needs to be gathered on the subject Also...yes there is massive variance when I use the turbo functions, and I'm not sure what causes it, but I test the scripts on the PC to ensure that they are outputting correctly...the ScR is the only weapon where measured data has any noticeable variance at all. If you are going to be online soon let me know. I would love to go ahead and record test data from both views and discuss some things. I do see a bit of room for variance in your hardware but can not say for sure without a little more information.
I should have some time soon anyway...I'm logged on right now
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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