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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.20 05:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Always glad to help test out DUST SCIENCE!
Also...the micro-charges could explain the anomalous heat buildup I was seeing during the tests I did of the Scrambler Rifle Overheats at different Rates of Fire.
To what degree this modifies heat buildup though will be difficult to measure without a more accurate/precise heat buildup indicator to measure from. Well, we know that heat buildup is on a per-second rather than per-shot basis, so simply holding the trigger down for any duration is adding heat to the weapon. If you can pin-point those minute amounts of time between each trigger pull with consistency and reliability (you -WILL- need a modded controller to test this) than you can perhaps pinpoint the numbers more accurately :D
The minimum time the trigger must be pressed is 40 miliseconds for the weapon to fire. In theory 35 will work but the PS3 monitors in 10 ms increments making it very unreliable.
There IS a difference between 40 ms and 80 ms. I suppose I could hop on right quick and test a few different timers for you if you like. Please answer quick as I will be heading for bed in roughly 30 minutes.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 05:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:deezy dabest wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Always glad to help test out DUST SCIENCE!
Also...the micro-charges could explain the anomalous heat buildup I was seeing during the tests I did of the Scrambler Rifle Overheats at different Rates of Fire.
To what degree this modifies heat buildup though will be difficult to measure without a more accurate/precise heat buildup indicator to measure from. Well, we know that heat buildup is on a per-second rather than per-shot basis, so simply holding the trigger down for any duration is adding heat to the weapon. If you can pin-point those minute amounts of time between each trigger pull with consistency and reliability (you -WILL- need a modded controller to test this) than you can perhaps pinpoint the numbers more accurately :D The minimum time the trigger must be pressed is 40 miliseconds for the weapon to fire. In theory 35 will work but the PS3 monitors in 10 ms increments making it very unreliable. There IS a difference between 40 ms and 80 ms. I suppose I could hop on right quick and test a few different timers for you if you like. Please answer quick as I will be heading for bed in roughly 30 minutes. Are you 100% sure on the 40ms...I ran several trials (not so long ago) to try to put this issue together, with limited success...oversampling wasn't eliminated on the ScR (although it was eliminated on the TacAR)...additionally, heat data suggests micro-charges came into-play (Searching for the video files to see if it shows up)
Yes 40 ms is the minimum time for the weapon to fire. You also have to take delay between presses into account to make everything balance out nicely. When it comes down to oversampling make sure you work in increments of 10ms stay within the refresh rates of the PS3.
I have probably already said too much so I will not give out my exact numbers. I am some what anxious to test actual damage versus charge time. Is there any timings you would like to know the numbers on? I am thinking about going with 40, 80, 120, and 240 for now to get a nice little chart going.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 06:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
Well, with what you know (and with the knowledge I worked in proper increments), you should be able to work out what I did (although we probably should eliminate the specifics from the quotes and posts to be safe). but yeah, more experimental data is always a good thing xD.
I scrubbed my posts.
I will drop you a mail in game once I have posted my video and spread sheets for discussion.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 06:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
So I have an idea what differences I should be looking for that caused your sampling issues:
What is the refresh rate on your mouse?
Are you using BT or USB to connect to the console?
I think one of these may be the answer to why you ran into issues.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 10:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
CHET CHEWS wrote:My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here 
It is just a test to show that no matter what when you fire the ScR it adds some charge damage meaning that it is almost impossible to fire the weapon at the stated damage.
I am working on my spreadsheet right now of charge damage over time. I will be generating a spread sheet with 5 shots each against shields and armor with increases of 20 milliseconds per shot. This should be very interesting as I feel like there is a bit of variation in applied damage thanks to translation between the client and the server. That's the one that is going to give some real headaches.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 11:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:CHET CHEWS wrote:My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here all other rifles fire when you press R1. hold the rigger and bullets fly. The scrambler rifle fires when you release R1. Because you need to hold the trigger for a charge shot, rounds only fly once youe release the tirgger. The longer the charge the increase in damage. No matter how quickly you hold and release the trigger, there is some damage build up. That makes the scrambler do more damage by about 10 hit points more than intended per single shot. good work Aeon. I am a staunch defender of the scrambler rifle, and good work on catching un-intended designs. Propose a charge damage delay? No charge damage increase below two rounds. Single shots do correct damage. Charge threshold starts at three, everybody wins.
I disagree with needing this fix. What you are talking about here is a mess on a weapon that is already difficult for newbies.
The damage multiplier at full charge is 3.5
The full charge time is 2 seconds. For simplicity we will say 2000 milliseconds hold for a full charge.
3.5 / 2000 = .00175% increase per millisecond.
The DS3 has a refresh rate of 10 milliseconds. This makes the maximum variable .0175% based on your hold time versus refresh.
It takes roughly 40 ms of hold time for the press to register and begin charging.
So what we end up with is:
50 ms hold = .0175% base charge up from a very fast trigger tap.
70 ms hold = .0525% base charge up on a slightly slower trigger tap.
At 71.5 base hp damage you end up with:
71.5 * 1.0175 = 72.75125 (*1.2 = 87.3015) (*.8 = 58.201)
71.5 * 1.0525 = 75.25375 (*1.2 = 90.3045) (*.8 = 60.203)
The 2 to 3 extra HP that comes out of this is hardly worth an insanely over complicated band aid to feel like something has been accomplished. In reality it is the profile multipliers which spreads this gap to a point of even being notable.
You should also remember that this increase in cycle time lowers the RoF effectively turning these into a near dead lock on the DPS.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 12:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sequal's Back wrote:So if the ScR shot would only deal "charged damage" when it's fully charged and not deal more than what's written on the stats when it's half way charged (or just a tiny bit), it would do the amount of damage it's supposed to right?
Might be a great way to make people stop whining about my beloved ScR :)
Nice discovery! Good job on that. Now stop beeing useless blueberries on the field and FIGHT!
I am starting to believe that increasing the charge time by 25% would slow the rate of gain enough to make it so the user would have to mean to charge the weapon to see any amount of gain on the damage.
The other option is a simple 5 tier modifier for the charge up to accumulate damage would be a seemingly simple fix while keeping the overall feel of the weapon exactly the same.
The way a 5 tier system wold work.
Tier 0 = No hold = 1x damage
Tier 1 = 500 ms hold = 1.625x
Tier 2 = 1000 ms hold = 2.25x
Tier 3 = 1500 ms hold = 2.875x
Tier 4 = 2000 ms hold = full 3.5x damage modifier
Any charge below the next level would be rounded down. This alleviates the need for a complicated progression that turns into a mess when adjusting charge time and make everything function nice and smoothly.
I could agree with this adjustment 100%
EDIT: I seriously think I just fixed the ScR. Unfortunately there is slim to no chance of this being implemented as replacing what CCP considers to be "working as intended".
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 12:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Aeon, if you manage to do more testing, please would you test scrambler rifle dps by firing at a close target by spamming the trigger (realistically) and then using the damage done and time taken to calculate actual dps? Please also do this with an assault variant rifle (preferably CR, RR or AR) and a TacAR for comparison.
If you were able to fit this into your tests it would be awesome.
I don't know if you have an unusually fast or slow trigger finger, but it would be really interesting to see actual in game dps for semi auto weapons.
I suspect the scrambler rifles will do the most dps.
I feel that if the scrambler rifle were truly OP, more people would use it. I know this thread isn't calling for a nerf. I just think it would be a shame if the gun did get nerfed without the whole picture being taken into account. Rattati has the spawn efficiency numbers, which would probably be the most telling. If it does need a nerf, these investigations will help determine what to do. I suspect toning down damage or rate of fire threshold would be better balances, rather than messing with charge mechanics.
The set rate of fire on the ScR actually falls on a line that makes it 100% impossible to apply the calculated DPS. You will either go slightly over thanks to the conversation we are having here or you will under sample thanks to the hardware limits.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 16:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:deezy dabest wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:CHET CHEWS wrote:My head hurts, someone please explain to me what Aeon did here all other rifles fire when you press R1. hold the rigger and bullets fly. The scrambler rifle fires when you release R1. Because you need to hold the trigger for a charge shot, rounds only fly once youe release the tirgger. The longer the charge the increase in damage. No matter how quickly you hold and release the trigger, there is some damage build up. That makes the scrambler do more damage by about 10 hit points more than intended per single shot. good work Aeon. I am a staunch defender of the scrambler rifle, and good work on catching un-intended designs. Propose a charge damage delay? No charge damage increase below two rounds. Single shots do correct damage. Charge threshold starts at three, everybody wins. I disagree with needing this fix. What you are talking about here is a mess on a weapon that is already difficult for newbies. The damage multiplier at full charge is 3.5 The full charge time is 2 seconds. For simplicity we will say 2000 milliseconds hold for a full charge. 3.5 / 2000 = .00175% increase per millisecond. The DS3 has a refresh rate of 10 milliseconds. This makes the maximum variable .0175% based on your hold time versus refresh. It takes roughly 40 ms of hold time for the press to register and begin charging. So what we end up with is: 50 ms hold = .0175% base charge up from a very fast trigger tap. 70 ms hold = .0525% base charge up on a slightly slower trigger tap. At 71.5 base hp damage you end up with: 71.5 * 1.0175 = 72.75125 (*1.2 = 87.3015) (*.8 = 58.201) 71.5 * 1.0525 = 75.25375 (*1.2 = 90.3045) (*.8 = 60.203) The 2 to 3 extra HP that comes out of this is hardly worth an insanely over complicated band aid to feel like something has been accomplished. In reality it is the profile multipliers which spreads this gap to a point of even being notable. You should also remember that this increase in cycle time lowers the RoF effectively turning these into a near dead lock on the DPS. OK... 1) you are assuming a linear build in damage. Maybe it's not... Would be interested in seeing this investigated. 2) evidence from this thread has showed damage upwards of + 10 (or whatever it was) not simply +2. Just saying.
To point 1
If this thread is correct then it most certainly is linear as there is no other way damage would be accumulated from just the time it takes a player takes to release the trigger. My preliminary testing has shown that it does accumulate in a uniform fashion. I will be releasing a full video and test results some time over the weekend as so far I have not had time to complete the test.
To point number 2
That is why I broke down the damage based on a 10ms cycle. Actual damage is decided by how fast the player presses and releases the trigger. Based on my numbers you could actually reverse engineer based on your damage and figure out a good estimate of how long you are actually holding the trigger. To give a little more perspective on those numbers it takes roughly 3 to 400 milliseconds to blink. The +2 was only meant to be a base for showing the difference between different players not as an actual measure of the damage being applied.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 16:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:@Deezy Debest A fairly large variance appeared when I used my device on the PS3 again, can't wait for your test data to be recorded...to see if this is just a problem on my end or something common). The Data recorded is also on the spreadsheet Aeon Posted, it seems to suggest that damage scales linearly with the charge, but more data is necessary to test this. Edit: It's also worth it to note that it appears to generate additional heat based on past data; however, more data needs to be gathered on the subject Also...yes there is massive variance when I use the turbo functions, and I'm not sure what causes it, but I test the scripts on the PC to ensure that they are outputting correctly...the ScR is the only weapon where measured data has any noticeable variance at all.
If you are going to be online soon let me know. I would love to go ahead and record test data from both views and discuss some things.
I do see a bit of room for variance in your hardware but can not say for sure without a little more information.
++ Remove NPC orbitals from FW -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest ++
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