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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 10:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
When you decided to buff swarm launchers CCP, did you ever consider the FUADS effect?
The rule seems to be that every person an ADS kills has a 33% chance of butthurt and will respawn with an AV weapon, depending on lack of skills this more often than not is likely to be a swarm launcher. How did you expect the Air game would work out considering that before doing that, AV weapons were more than capable of dealing with dropships?
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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hails8n
DEATH BY DESTRUCTION
371
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Posted - 2015.07.24 11:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ccp doesnt think.
They just run on Rattati fueled rage. It was his decision to triple Nerf assault dropships and buffs swarms all in the same update.
Get some life in your hands.
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 11:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
I wonder if there were stats to support doing that, from what i remember the vast majority of ADS pilots were terrible, most were only skilled at the running part of hit and run, maybe thats why he did it, got sick of seeing terrible pilots surviving all match with 2 kills and a handful of WPs to show for it.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 11:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:a 33% chance of butthurt and will respawn with an AV weapon 33%? Try more like 60%...
But really, Rattati seems very slow to react to the vehicle meta. I mean, I get there are buttholes that keep lobbying to keep their murderdeathinvicomachines (looking at some Madrugar advocates right now, as there were some ADS advocates before) but most aren't that way. Rattati just seems to take forever deciding on what to do with vehicles.
I mean, Madrugars have been stupidly OP for months now, but not a peep from him about a possible solution. Dropships in general have suffered for a long time now, even with the Swarm range reduction they're plenty capable of causing bowel loosening terror in all but the best of the best pilots.
Essentially, even though Rattati has commented about DS ills before, don't expect anything any time soon, because vehicles rate a fraction of his attention compared to even a single gun...or at least it looks that way to a vehicle user (because we rarely see him commenting on vehicles.)
/halfrant...
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 11:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
I was trying to be conservative, but yeah reactionary AV is as fierce as it is persistent, you kill one guy he will pull out his best AV, kill him while hes using that AV he activates uber butthurt mode and will either call a redline tank or try to ram you with another dropship, some ppl will go to amazing lengths to get their revenge on a skywhale.
The worst thing though is killing someone in a squad, you've got almost no chance once you hinder a squad in their stompage, all 4 guys will turn protoAV plus tanks on you, and once they get their kill they'll keep atleast one guy on the high ground somewhere just waiting for you, 500m bubble of no fly zone goes up and all dropship fun ceases.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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tffvbhb
Pile 'em Up
26
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Posted - 2015.07.24 21:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:I was trying to be conservative, but yeah reactionary AV is as fierce as it is persistent, you kill one guy he will pull out his best AV, kill him while hes using that AV he activates uber butthurt mode and will either call a redline tank or try to ram you with another dropship, some ppl will go to amazing lengths to get their revenge on a skywhale.
The worst thing though is killing someone in a squad, you've got almost no chance once you hinder a squad in their stompage, all 4 guys will turn protoAV plus tanks on you, and once they get their kill they'll keep atleast one guy on the high ground somewhere just waiting for you, 500m bubble of no fly zone goes up and all dropship fun ceases. I always liked the idea of my entire squad getting PROTO breach forges and hitting something |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 21:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:a 33% chance of butthurt and will respawn with an AV weapon 33%? Try more like 60%... But really, Rattati seems very slow to react to the vehicle meta. I mean, I get there are buttholes that keep lobbying to keep their murderdeathinvicomachines (looking at some Madrugar advocates right now, as there were some ADS advocates before) but most aren't that way. Rattati just seems to take forever deciding on what to do with vehicles. I mean, Madrugars have been stupidly OP for months now, but not a peep from him about a possible solution. Dropships in general have suffered for a long time now, even with the Swarm range reduction they're plenty capable of causing bowel loosening terror in all but the best of the best pilots. Essentially, even though Rattati has commented about DS ills before, don't expect anything any time soon, because vehicles rate a fraction of his attention compared to even a single gun...or at least it looks that way to a vehicle user (because we rarely see him commenting on vehicles.) /halfrant...
Rattati literally feeds off of constructive forum input, especially when someone decides to be hella helpful and do the math to back their assertions.
There is zero guarantee he will accept it, you can see shades of End-User input in every decision, and we've seen him fall back on player ideas.
The reason, my guess would be, is with Vehicle meta changes it takes a lot more effort to sift through the bullsh** and find the stuff that will help. His tank tier/tiericide thread had literally forty pages of spkr4thedead and a few select individuals shouting down anyone who tried to contribute.
Makes it a nightmare pain in the ass to get useful feedback in that mess.
And bluntly, Tankers and pilots need to speak up and front their own ideas, math and input, because thus far it's either been lacking or from sources who take other peoples' work, twist it out of context or flat alter it to suit their designs. ADS and dropship pilots flatly refuse to help give me enough info to do the math that would be needed FOR them.
I'm not out to get HAV drivers but FFS, there's not going to be a healthy meta discussion if no one can come to an agreement where to start. And if guys like me are the only ones providing the kind of detailed feedback about HAVs/Derpships/whatever how the hell is Rattati supposed to sift up a valid counterpoint that he can test against mine and his own theories, findings and recommendations?
I want HAVs to be powerful, yeah, but I don't necessarily want it "my way, right away." I'm just pushy as hell.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Ghosts Chance
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.24 21:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
assault dropships still have an extremely important roll.
the control of high ground through uplink placement and destruction.
in a PC match players use that high ground to spawn and seed the low ground with uplinks, having those reserve links high up proteccts them from infantry but not ADS. of course in pubs your average joe is likely to just sit up on the high ground wasting the advantage for some extra kills and probably diddnt bring more upllinks to seed the objectives with but in a high tier battle its almost essential to have an ADS pilot capable of giving you that position and keeping it.
so despite their uselessness as a slaying machine its become more of a support role, reliant on a smart team to be useful.
used properly htey are preetty powerful and this is why PC teams tend to refund ADS losses to pilots who provide this servace.
Minmatar is Winmatar
Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind"
I am Chances Ghost
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 22:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:assault dropships still have an extremely important roll.
the control of high ground through uplink placement and destruction.
in a PC match players use that high ground to spawn and seed the low ground with uplinks, having those reserve links high up proteccts them from infantry but not ADS. of course in pubs your average joe is likely to just sit up on the high ground wasting the advantage for some extra kills and probably diddnt bring more upllinks to seed the objectives with but in a high tier battle its almost essential to have an ADS pilot capable of giving you that position and keeping it.
so despite their uselessness as a slaying machine its become more of a support role, reliant on a smart team to be useful.
used properly htey are preetty powerful and this is why PC teams tend to refund ADS losses to pilots who provide this servace. Plus a good ADS pilot who isn't triggerhappy can do all sorts of neat things, like sneak up on me while I'm trying to kill a tank and murdering me before the shadow passing under me fully registers.
There's a few ADS pilots out there I have to give props to. they either will not die, or they actually managed to get me before I lobbed a shot off at them. More than once.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 22:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Stuff Yeah, I know.
It's mostly the silence surrounding vehicles, especially around the ADS, that is frustrating.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 22:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Stuff Yeah, I know. It's mostly the silence surrounding vehicles, especially around the ADS, that is frustrating. Edit: I can't even remember the last time Rattati actually talked about the ADS - or even the current Madrugar situation - aside from a half recent (like, six months ago) and nebulous comment about working on stuff. Bluntly if I were in his shoes I'd be reluctant to give a crap.
Hell, I'm about burned out on it myself.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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DDx77
Random Gunz Rise Of Legion.
327
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Posted - 2015.07.24 23:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:I wonder if there were stats to support doing that, from what i remember the vast majority of ADS pilots were terrible, most were only skilled at the running part of hit and run, maybe thats why he did it, got sick of seeing terrible pilots surviving all match with 2 kills and a handful of WPs to show for it. - T...t...tt..ta..t...TWO Kills?????
Try 20- 0 without breaking a sweat before the nerf.
I agree that ADS survivability was nerfed a bit much but again, before the nerf it was a nigh invincible officer Mass Driver hovering over your head pooping on you |
Vlad Rostok
SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance
184
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Posted - 2015.07.24 23:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:I was trying to be conservative, but yeah reactionary AV is as fierce as it is persistent, you kill one guy he will pull out his best AV, kill him while hes using that AV he activates uber butthurt mode and will either call a redline tank or try to ram you with another dropship, some ppl will go to amazing lengths to get their revenge on a skywhale.
The worst thing though is killing someone in a squad, you've got almost no chance once you hinder a squad in their stompage, all 4 guys will turn protoAV plus tanks on you, and once they get their kill they'll keep atleast one guy on the high ground somewhere just waiting for you, 500m bubble of no fly zone goes up and all dropship fun ceases.
And you're surprised by this? A self professed non-gun carrier like yourself? All you can see is your lack of dropship fun. Perhaps you should consider the non-fun that the infantry you mercilessly slaughter are having. |
Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 00:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
DDx77 wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:I wonder if there were stats to support doing that, from what i remember the vast majority of ADS pilots were terrible, most were only skilled at the running part of hit and run, maybe thats why he did it, got sick of seeing terrible pilots surviving all match with 2 kills and a handful of WPs to show for it. - T...t...tt..ta..t...TWO Kills????? Try 20- 0 without breaking a sweat before the nerf. I agree that ADS survivability was nerfed a bit much but again, before the nerf it was a nigh invincible officer Mass Driver hovering over your head pooping on you
believe me even when ADS were really good, the vast majority of pilots were absolutely terrible.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 00:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vlad Rostok wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:I was trying to be conservative, but yeah reactionary AV is as fierce as it is persistent, you kill one guy he will pull out his best AV, kill him while hes using that AV he activates uber butthurt mode and will either call a redline tank or try to ram you with another dropship, some ppl will go to amazing lengths to get their revenge on a skywhale.
The worst thing though is killing someone in a squad, you've got almost no chance once you hinder a squad in their stompage, all 4 guys will turn protoAV plus tanks on you, and once they get their kill they'll keep atleast one guy on the high ground somewhere just waiting for you, 500m bubble of no fly zone goes up and all dropship fun ceases. And you're surprised by this? A self professed non-gun carrier like yourself? All you can see is your lack of dropship fun. Perhaps you should consider the non-fun that the infantry you mercilessly slaughter are having.
People like to carry on like an ADS getting 30+ kills back in the day was some kind of crime against humanity, but seem to overlook the many matches where a guy with a rifle does the same kinda killing, the only difference is "wah my AR can't kill a dropship in under 1 second"
perhaps with your follow up post you'll tell me to get some ground game like some rail tanker i repeatedly chased into the redline yesterday.
In the rock paper scissors game dropships appear to be the forgotten 4th move, with some fairly minor changes a bit of balance could be restored without throwing everything else out of whack, for example giving them a higher resistance to swarms, vs forge and plasma cannons the balance is fine, but swarms especially high level suit enhanced ones are just far too much of an I win button.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 01:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vlad Rostok wrote:And you're surprised by this? A self professed non-gun carrier like yourself? All you can see is your lack of dropship fun. Perhaps you should consider the non-fun that the infantry you mercilessly slaughter are having. +Çs someone who would very much like a reason to get in his ADS again, I find that dropships are very easy to drive off. Get a Commando with the kind of guns you like, equip one and put a Swarm on. You'll knock about any DS that comes near, get a bunch of WP from it and make their gametime a frustrating exercise in futility.
Actually killing things from the pilot's seat of an ADS is not easy: a friend of mine has skilled some way into Pythons, as a casual, investigative kind of way. He's lucky to get assists, let alone kills. By the way some people present it all you need to do is buy an ADS and your KDR skyrockets to 2,500.0, but that simply isn't the case.
ADSs that continuously harass an entire enemy team are not the average pilot, they are the ones that have spent literally years flying and fighting against AV weapons balanced against HAVs.* Have you considered the non-fun that the pilots that aren't super-incredi-awesome have when even a single Swarmer pops up, barely rendering, and swats them about with next to no effort required.
Swings and roundabouts. What is pretty clear is that there needs to be distinction between anti-HAV weapons and anti-light vehicle weapons.
*Please note, I'm not saying that I'm that good, simply that those kinds of pilots are not the average, they are the tippy-top of the pilot totem pole.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Vlad Rostok
SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance
184
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Posted - 2015.07.25 01:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:I was trying to be conservative, but yeah reactionary AV is as fierce as it is persistent, you kill one guy he will pull out his best AV, kill him while hes using that AV he activates uber butthurt mode and will either call a redline tank or try to ram you with another dropship, some ppl will go to amazing lengths to get their revenge on a skywhale.
The worst thing though is killing someone in a squad, you've got almost no chance once you hinder a squad in their stompage, all 4 guys will turn protoAV plus tanks on you, and once they get their kill they'll keep atleast one guy on the high ground somewhere just waiting for you, 500m bubble of no fly zone goes up and all dropship fun ceases. And you're surprised by this? A self professed non-gun carrier like yourself? All you can see is your lack of dropship fun. Perhaps you should consider the non-fun that the infantry you mercilessly slaughter are having. People like to carry on like an ADS getting 30+ kills back in the day was some kind of crime against humanity, but seem to overlook the many matches where a guy with a rifle does the same kinda killing, the only difference is "wah my AR can't kill a dropship in under 1 second" perhaps with your follow up post you'll tell me to get some ground game like some rail tanker i repeatedly chased into the redline yesterday. In the rock paper scissors game dropships appear to be the forgotten 4th move, with some fairly minor changes a bit of balance could be restored without throwing everything else out of whack, for example giving them a higher resistance to swarms, vs forge and plasma cannons the balance is fine, but swarms especially high level suit enhanced ones are just far too much of an I win button.
Nah, I'd not tell anyone what they "had" to do to play and enjoy a game. I don't have much ground game and much as I'd like to learn to fly dropships I'm even worse at that.
Thinking about it there probably is room for tweaks as far as DS' are concerned opposite SL's. Problem is SL's are worthless against HAV's now. I use proto swarms and can't do anything to HAV's. They barely even run away. |
Vlad Rostok
SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance
184
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Posted - 2015.07.25 01:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:And you're surprised by this? A self professed non-gun carrier like yourself? All you can see is your lack of dropship fun. Perhaps you should consider the non-fun that the infantry you mercilessly slaughter are having. +Çs someone who would very much like a reason to get in his ADS again, I find that dropships are very easy to drive off. Get a Commando with the kind of guns you like, equip one and put a Swarm on. You'll knock about any DS that comes near, get a bunch of WP from it and make their gametime a frustrating exercise in futility. Actually killing things from the pilot's seat of an ADS is not easy: a friend of mine has skilled some way into Pythons, as a casual, investigative kind of way. He's lucky to get assists, let alone kills. By the way some people present it all you need to do is buy an ADS and your KDR skyrockets to 2,500.0, but that simply isn't the case. ADSs that continuously harass an entire enemy team are not the average pilot, they are the ones that have spent literally years flying and fighting against AV weapons balanced against HAVs.* Have you considered the non-fun that the pilots that aren't super-incredi-awesome have when even a single Swarmer pops up, barely rendering, and swats them about with next to no effort required. Swings and roundabouts. What is pretty clear is that there needs to be distinction between anti-HAV weapons and anti-light vehicle weapons. *Please note, I'm not saying that I'm that good, simply that those kinds of pilots are not the average, they are the tippy-top of the pilot totem pole.
Okay, agreed. Also agree that there should be distinct AA and AT weaponry. |
DeadlyAztec11
Defenders of the Helghast Dream
8
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Posted - 2015.07.25 02:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
I actually did this today. I spawned in a proto suits for the first time in a long time and was two shotted by an ADS.
He didn't know I was a top level AV specialist who sank all of his SP into AV first. I looked like I was only running around with an SMG. I waited for him to get close. Then I dropped him out of the sky and killed him with my Assault SMG. His squad and him spent the rest of the match trying to find me only for me to force them to run away.
Vehicle users won't have there way as long as there are people like me out there.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Larkson Crazy Eye
WarRavens RUST415
126
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Posted - 2015.07.25 03:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
I know this is not the real goal of the thread but since when did they buff Swarms? I mean the last change I remember was a nerf in their lock on range only being 175 now. Given all the other problems with swarms that still exist I hardly consider them 'buffed'. Frankly the only change that could be considered a good thing is the Mim commando bonus to dmg and reload speed. |
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Lupus Wolf
Minmatar Republic
320
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Posted - 2015.07.25 04:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:DDx77 wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:I wonder if there were stats to support doing that, from what i remember the vast majority of ADS pilots were terrible, most were only skilled at the running part of hit and run, maybe thats why he did it, got sick of seeing terrible pilots surviving all match with 2 kills and a handful of WPs to show for it. - T...t...tt..ta..t...TWO Kills????? Try 20- 0 without breaking a sweat before the nerf. I agree that ADS survivability was nerfed a bit much but again, before the nerf it was a nigh invincible officer Mass Driver hovering over your head pooping on you believe me even when ADS were really good, the vast majority of pilots were absolutely terrible. Applies to me, I suppose. I've been an ADS pilot for over a year and I just got into the groove of chasing infantry. Normally, i'd just drop off squad mates and destroy uplinks (apart from chasing enemy dropships and tanks).
Unfortunately, right as I start to "git gud," my ps3 dies. I'm not buying a new one just for dust, though.
Too bad, too. I REALLY miss my Incubus.
"Dogfighting with missiles is like watching two armless kids try to catch a baseball." - Dust Fiend
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Squagga
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
974
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Posted - 2015.07.25 05:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Why're you guys always crying about how you can't hide in a vehicle?
Shields, the silent killer.
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Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 05:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:When you decided to buff swarm launchers CCP, did you ever consider the FUADS effect?
The rule seems to be that every person an ADS kills has a 33% chance of butthurt and will respawn with an AV weapon, depending on lack of skills this more often than not is likely to be a swarm launcher. How did you expect the Air game would work out considering that before doing that, AV weapons were more than capable of dealing with dropships?
If swarms required LOS in order for them to go at maximum speed and do maximum damage, they might be a bit more balanced... As in, the user has to keep the target in the reticule to "assist" the missile toward the target. If they loose LOS the missiles can go on self guidance, but they would be slower and have less damage after a few seconds.
This would enable direct assaults by AV, but also permit evasive action of a Pilot to be rewarded.
If the swarms were only allowed "assistance" by the last volley shot, it could make some interesting setups. (as in if one is in the air and the user tries to lock on again, the first volley looses the assistance buff if it hits because it's not the "active" volley anymore.)
Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I mean, Madrugars have been stupidly OP for months now,
... with lower kill counts than the average dropsuit user...
Makes me wonder what you consider "OP". AV users like me clean them out like a preschool trip to a candy store.
I've only seen one tank so far, that could evade the AV shots I put at it, but it did so by running around the field like a chicken with it's head cut off.
http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU
Dust to Dust
Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 09:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Squagga wrote:Why're you guys always crying about how you can't hide in a vehicle?
Yes of course that is what this thread is about.
It has nothing to do with a dedicated pilot whos recently started playing again talking about the balance between a particular vehicle vs a particular AV weapon.
But please tell me more about how a dropship that can be seen from every location on a given map is hiding, while the opposition pops out of doorways and from behind rocks or just sits in the redline with unbalanced homing weapons, some which seem to be able to fire multiple volleys in a shorter period of time than seems allowable within the games stats.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
729
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Posted - 2015.07.25 09:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Swarms are good against dropships but suck against tanks.
The balance isn't to be made on the AV weapon but on the vehicles. Dropships were utterly OP. Now they kill and can get killed as well. From what I see IG, they look balanced now.
Tanks need a good nerf (mostly hardeners and large blasters) since they are litterally invincible.
WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 11:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:... with lower kill counts than the average dropsuit user...
Makes me wonder what you consider "OP". AV users like me clean them out like a preschool trip to a candy store.
I've only seen one tank so far, that could evade the AV shots I put at it, but it did so by running around the field like a chicken with it's head cut off.
Want to share your magic techniques? Without the use of AV grenades a solo AV will pretty much never take down a half awake Maddy, let alone a decent operator.
Forge Guns are pretty much incapable of soloing Maddies at all; PLCs not even slightly; Swarms, maybe if you chase them down with Lai Dai Packed, but far from easy/guaranteed; Proxy Mines are so easily avoided it's ridiculous; Packed REs are incredibly hard to apply to a half decent operator; and AV grenades are good for short range burst damage, but they're only good at spitting distance.
So while it is potentially possible to kill Madrugars, it is far from likely for any given AVer and will likely take 2-3 to have a chance. Then consider that due to some broken mechanic you rarely actually get WP for damaging them, and AV isn't properly rewarded for trying to deal with them.
Is it possible to deal with Madrugars? Yes. Are they killing everything ever? No. But when they don't have a reasonable chance of death against 2+ AVers, something is wrong. This is pretty much identical to 1.7, and ADSs then too. ADSs right now are at least balanced with FGs, even Swarms as far as actual damage output is concerned - it's the Swarm's application that skews the balance way in their favour.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Scotty AI MatchMaker
WarRavens RUST415
239
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Posted - 2015.07.25 14:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
reading the OP im shocked, so a tank camps a redline, shreds me to oblivion and back, i respawn with a swarm and im an idiot? should i of gone running at it with nova knives? swarms can't lock on to people so dont bring out tanks and ads, and i'll have no reason to bring out beacons modded to death and go through hell and back trying to lock it up
'The shadows betray you because they belong to me,'
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 14:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Scotty AI MatchMaker wrote:reading the OP im shocked, so a tank camps a redline, shreds me to oblivion and back, i respawn with a swarm and im an idiot? should i of gone running at it with nova knives? swarms can't lock on to people so dont bring out tanks and ads, and i'll have no reason to bring out beacons modded to death and go through hell and back trying to lock it up
what opening post are you reading?
cause it features none of your off topic drivel.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Scotty AI MatchMaker
WarRavens RUST415
239
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Posted - 2015.07.25 14:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Scotty AI MatchMaker wrote:reading the OP im shocked, so a tank camps a redline, shreds me to oblivion and back, i respawn with a swarm and im an idiot? should i of gone running at it with nova knives? swarms can't lock on to people so dont bring out tanks and ads, and i'll have no reason to bring out beacons modded to death and go through hell and back trying to lock it up what opening post are you reading? cause it features none of your off topic drivel. and the penny drops,
'The shadows betray you because they belong to me,'
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BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
116
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Posted - 2015.07.25 14:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
Here is a clue for all you guys QQing about swarms....
This is not a vehicle combat game. SURPRISE!!!!!
The vehicles augment the game, but are not the core. Swarms are fine. The rise of ADS in the last few weeks show that. In truth you can almost never actually kill one with swarms unless the pilot is awful. Now if two guys or more are trying than yeah you might get shot down, but WTF happens when two or more guys do the same thing to a guy on the ground??? They shut him down. The game is not about safe ways to pad K/D while you fire from a position that the other team can't counter play. Your light weapon is your man weapon not your DS. They are a great addition to field, but they are not made to be what you do the entire game. You use them then recall them once the AV shows up. You don't get to fly around and go 10+/0 because you feel like you should . So adapt your thinking. Its not a Vehicle game and individuals should be able to compete with vehicles after a respawn not simply have to die repeatedly of avoid an area entirely because of one. |
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Larkson Crazy Eye
WarRavens RUST415
126
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Posted - 2015.07.25 14:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:I think most pilots would agree that it isn't necessarily the damage that is irritating, it's that Swarms will always hit, always push you away because of the combination of impulse effects, good damage and difficulties identifying the enemy combined make fighting against Swarms an exhibition in futility. Simply, a Swarm will hit you twice, near guaranteed, and unless they're right in your sights from the beginning you'll rarely be able to identify them before you're forced to retreat - there's no interplay, no ability to evade no way to fight a Swarm: you run, you immediately kill them with no delay or you die. Frankly, if they became dumb-fired with AV grenade-style hom+«ng, it would be both more interesting for both parties, and more reasonable to buff them somewhat.
Eh I don't know what your smoking but swarms do not always hit. You can very easily out run them if your already moving in a DS when they are fired. It also only takes a half decent pilot to go behind a hill, building or even just another person to have the missiles explode prematurely. Added to that the complete lack of anti infantry ability on swarms with the huge kill me please visual missile trail makes swarms a pretty suicidal and largely ineffective type of AV. If your not running a commando for the reload bonus you pretty much have no chance at taking down any kind of DS with swarms before they run away and every time you fire the entire enemy team pretty much knows exactly where you are and the fact your an easy kill because your using a AV suit. |
BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
116
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:... with lower kill counts than the average dropsuit user...
Makes me wonder what you consider "OP". AV users like me clean them out like a preschool trip to a candy store.
I've only seen one tank so far, that could evade the AV shots I put at it, but it did so by running around the field like a chicken with it's head cut off.
Want to share your magic techniques? Without the use of AV grenades a solo AV will pretty much never take down a half awake Maddy, let alone a decent operator. Forge Guns are pretty much incapable of soloing Maddies at all; PLCs not even slightly; Swarms, maybe if you chase them down with Lai Dai Packed, but far from easy/guaranteed; Proxy Mines are so easily avoided it's ridiculous; Packed REs are incredibly hard to apply to a half decent operator; and AV grenades are good for short range burst damage, but they're only good at spitting distance. So while it is potentially possible to kill Madrugars, it is far from likely for any given AVer and will likely take 2-3 to have a chance. Then consider that due to some broken mechanic you rarely actually get WP for damaging them, and AV isn't properly rewarded for trying to deal with them. Is it possible to deal with Madrugars? Yes. Are they killing everything ever? No. But when they don't have a reasonable chance of death against 2+ AVers, something is wrong. This is pretty much identical to 1.7, and ADSs then too. ADSs right now are at least balanced with FGs, even Swarms as far as actual damage output is concerned - it's the Swarm's application that skews the balance way in their favour. Sequal's Back wrote:The balance isn't to be made on the AV weapon but on the vehicles. Dropships were utterly OP. Now they kill and can get killed as well. From what I see IG, they look balanced now. I don't quite understand your first point, but the second is almost right: Dropships vs FGs are pretty damn spot on for balance. A good FGer will knock a DS out of the sky in two-four shots (depending on fit and FG) and the DS can actually fight back. The interplay between them makes it possible for either side to win, and if the DS - with its far greater manoeuvrability - disengages then the FGer at least gets rewarded some. DS vs PLC is....dodgy, because it's pretty damn hard to hit with a PLC. Damage wise it's good, but application is hard because of speed of projectile and the curve. Heavily in favour of any vehicle. DS vs Swarms: damage wise it is pretty close to fine. The Swarmed does heavy damage in a short time frame, but the DS can often take just enough to survive and flee (or, if reckless, try and find the bugger) - the issue lies with the target acquisition of the Swarmer. It's simply too easy to land Swarm hits, and far too effective for how easy it is. I think most pilots would agree that it isn't necessarily the damage that is irritating, it's that Swarms will always hit, always push you away because of the combination of impulse effects, good damage and difficulties identifying the enemy combined make fighting against Swarms an exhibition in futility. Simply, a Swarm will hit you twice, near guaranteed, and unless they're right in your sights from the beginning you'll rarely be able to identify them before you're forced to retreat - there's no interplay, no ability to evade no way to fight a Swarm: you run, you immediately kill them with no delay or you die. Frankly, if they became dumb-fired with AV grenade-style hom+«ng, it would be both more interesting for both parties, and more reasonable to buff them somewhat.
Honestly a wall of text to say something inane, like a Swarm launcher always hits....
Not even close. Everything on cluttered maps stop them and a ADS flies faster away than they seek it. The purpose of the Swarms is to keep Vehicles from dominating he battlefield. This is a ground combat game and is centered on that. Vehicles augment that strategy. Swarms/AVG are the only thing that keeps the game from devolving into that.
To be honest, I know a lot of guys like padding their K/D with ADS, but they were not meant to kill or suppress an entire area. They are transport units capable of knocking guys off high ground. Right now on most large maps they can camp an open area and unless you get out the av your team can't cross it. Light weapons don't damage them so AV is really the only answer...so it should ******* kill them. Not like the average suit guy can.
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:Here is a clue for all you guys QQing about swarms....
This is not a vehicle combat game. SURPRISE!!!!!
The vehicles augment the game, but are not the core. Swarms are fine. The rise of ADS in the last few weeks show that. In truth you can almost never actually kill one with swarms unless the pilot is awful. Now if two guys or more are trying than yeah you might get shot down, but WTF happens when two or more guys do the same thing to a guy on the ground??? They shut him down. The game is not about safe ways to pad K/D while you fire from a position that the other team can't counter play. Your light weapon is your man weapon not your DS. They are a great addition to field, but they are not made to be what you do the entire game. You use them then recall them once the AV shows up. You don't get to fly around and go 10+/0 because you feel like you should . So adapt your thinking. Its not a Vehicle game and individuals should be able to compete with vehicles after a respawn not simply have to die repeatedly of avoid an area entirely because of one.
And who are you to decide what the game is and isn't? And what people should and shouldn't specialise in?
No one in here is saying any of the things you assert, asking for and about balance doesn't automatically mean people want unkillable sky tanks, but hey I shouldn't expect much from a guy that has clearly never heard of a paragraph.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:20:00 -
[34] - Quote
Larkson Crazy Eye wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:I think most pilots would agree that it isn't necessarily the damage that is irritating, it's that Swarms will always hit, always push you away because of the combination of impulse effects, good damage and difficulties identifying the enemy combined make fighting against Swarms an exhibition in futility. Simply, a Swarm will hit you twice, near guaranteed, and unless they're right in your sights from the beginning you'll rarely be able to identify them before you're forced to retreat - there's no interplay, no ability to evade no way to fight a Swarm: you run, you immediately kill them with no delay or you die. Frankly, if they became dumb-fired with AV grenade-style hom+«ng, it would be both more interesting for both parties, and more reasonable to buff them somewhat. Eh I don't know what your smoking but swarms do not always hit. You can very easily out run them if your already moving in a DS when they are fired. It also only takes a half decent pilot to go behind a hill, building or even just another person to have the missiles explode prematurely. Added to that the complete lack of anti infantry ability on swarms with the huge kill me please visual missile trail makes swarms a pretty suicidal and largely ineffective type of AV. If your not running a commando for the reload bonus you pretty much have no chance at taking down any kind of DS with swarms before they run away and every time you fire the entire enemy team pretty much knows exactly where you are and the fact your an easy kill because your using a AV suit.
what a load of crap, back when i used to actually run on the ground my SMG was nearly as dangerous as any main rifle i could carry, dunno how much that has changed but i see plenty of swarmers nailing the people that come after them with their side arm.
And please tell me more about how defenseless a commando with 2 light weapons is.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:25:00 -
[35] - Quote
Larkson Crazy Eye wrote:Eh I don't know what your smoking but swarms do not always hit. You can very easily out run them if your already moving in a DS when they are fired. It also only takes a half decent pilot to go behind a hill, building or even just another person to have the missiles explode prematurely. Added to that the complete lack of anti infantry ability on swarms with the huge kill me please visual missile trail makes swarms a pretty suicidal and largely ineffective type of AV. If your not running a commando for the reload bonus you pretty much have no chance at taking down any kind of DS with swarms before they run away and every time you fire the entire enemy team pretty much knows exactly where you are and the fact your an easy kill because your using a AV suit. Out running them is being driven off, you're not contributing to the fight any more; hiding behind a building rarely stops volleys that are in the air, unless you're already hogging cover - which is fine but severely limits what you can actually accomplish while often making you vulnerable to FG/Rails.
And while Commandos are still less effective than Assaults, primarily, they can hold their own a lot better nowadays - I know, it's my primary suit.
BARAGAMOS wrote:Honestly a wall of text to say something inane, like a Swarm launcher always hits.... Basically. Swarms have next to no issue landing shots against DSs.
Also, you might want to reconsider what you think a wall of text is. Because my previous post was punctuated and had line breaks. And wasn't especially long.
BARAGAMOS wrote:Not even close. Everything on cluttered maps stop them and a [bADS flies faster away than they seek it.[/b] Not even close. Swarms were buffed to have a higher top speed than an ADS. The main reason DSs can escape is that they can reach the 400m mark before the Swarms can close the distance. Which also means that that DS has been driven off successfully for at least 10+ seconds where it is not participating in any meaningful manner - it all be dropping off/picking up no troops, nor firing at enemies.
BARAGAMOS wrote:The purpose of the Swarms is to keep Vehicles from dominating he battlefield.
This is a ground combat game and is centered on that.
Vehicles augment that strategy. Swarms/AVG are the only thing that keeps the game from devolving into that.
Ah of course, because warfare doesn't involve vehicles in any meaningful manner Your definition of ground combat is 'infantry combat' - that is majorly different from what DUST is; which is a combined arms game. CoD Modern Warfare is a ground combat game with no vehicles, or more reasonably identified as an infantry combat game: Battlefield is a series that involves ground combat game heavily that includes the extensive use of vehicles, both ground and aerial; Dust is far more akin to Battlefield in overall feel than CoD.
Anyway Swarms are not the only AV weapon. But they are by far and away the most commonly used because they are so simply a baby could use them.
BARAGAMOS wrote:To be honest, I know a lot of guys like padding their K/D with ADS, but they were not meant to kill or suppress an entire area. They are transport units capable of knocking guys off high ground. Right now on most large maps they can camp an open area and unless you get out the av your team can't cross it. Light weapons don't damage them so AV is really the only answer...so it should ******* kill them. Not like the average suit guy can. ADSs do not suppress or kill an entire area, unless they are allowed to by being utterly ignored. A single Swarmer will give an ADS hell and keep them readily in check.
Really though, what is difference between an ADS 'camping/suppressing/killing' an area and a Sniper who has the same area zoned in and kills those same people running across open ground? Your Rifles aren't killing either of them, and both of them are capable of killing the infantry. Obviously there are huge differences in approach, but the principle is basically the same.
And I must point out: I,personally, have not said anything about AV not being allowed/able to kill DSs, simply that Swarms are overly effective at denying airspace to a DS for the effort that the user has to put in. I am all for buffing relevant aspect of the Swarm Launcher in exchange for other aspects (such as aiming) being made a requisite.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
116
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:31:00 -
[36] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:BARAGAMOS wrote:Here is a clue for all you guys QQing about swarms....
This is not a vehicle combat game. SURPRISE!!!!!
The vehicles augment the game, but are not the core. Swarms are fine. The rise of ADS in the last few weeks show that. In truth you can almost never actually kill one with swarms unless the pilot is awful. Now if two guys or more are trying than yeah you might get shot down, but WTF happens when two or more guys do the same thing to a guy on the ground??? They shut him down. The game is not about safe ways to pad K/D while you fire from a position that the other team can't counter play. Your light weapon is your man weapon not your DS. They are a great addition to field, but they are not made to be what you do the entire game. You use them then recall them once the AV shows up. You don't get to fly around and go 10+/0 because you feel like you should . So adapt your thinking. Its not a Vehicle game and individuals should be able to compete with vehicles after a respawn not simply have to die repeatedly of avoid an area entirely because of one. And who are you to decide what the game is and isn't? And what people should and shouldn't specialise in? No one in here is saying any of the things you assert, asking for and about balance doesn't automatically mean people want unkillable sky tanks, but hey I shouldn't expect much from a guy that has clearly never heard of a paragraph.
I didn't decide kid... CCP did. Read the website. It's a ground combat game. You can skill into anything you want, but don't expect it supplant the purpose of the game. Yes, they are asking for unkillable sky tanks. Swarms are meant to take down vehicles, especially the DSs. If they did not then you would have those sky tanks. The point is to augment the basic game not be the focus. Notice they never really made pilot suits....
I too notice that you can't use a paragraph, and anytime you want to put your education against mine I'm game kid. |
Nymphadora PK
Grief Player Killers
16
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:33:00 -
[37] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:When you decided to buff swarm launchers CCP, did you ever consider the FUADS effect?
The rule seems to be that every person an ADS kills has a 33% chance of butthurt and will respawn with an AV weapon, depending on lack of skills this more often than not is likely to be a swarm launcher. How did you expect the Air game would work out considering that before doing that, AV weapons were more than capable of dealing with dropships?
Don't call down an ADS if you don't want me to spawn AV. It's a simple fact of the game.
Plus, running an AV suit leaves you pretty handicapped against infantry (especially with swarms), so there is a tradeoff. The point of the game isn't to have a perfect balance in 1v1 situations. It's to have balance in team capabilities. That's why there's now a cap on vehicles on the field, so the whole team can't run a vehicle fleet. But those that run vehicles have to watch out for those speced into AV.
So quit QQ'ing over swarms and out run the things, or have squad mates hunt the swarms down for you.
Channel: Chubby Chasers
A channel for heavies to find someone to cover their backsides.
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BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
116
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:Honestly a wall of text to say something inane, like a Swarm launcher always hits.... Basically. Swarms have next to no issue landing shots against DSs.
Also, you might want to reconsider what you think a wall of text is. Because my previous post was punctuated and had line breaks. And wasn't especially long.
BARAGAMOS wrote:Not even close. Everything on cluttered maps stop them and a [bADS flies faster away than they seek it.[/b] Not even close. Swarms were buffed to have a higher top speed than an ADS. The main reason DSs can escape is that they can reach the 400m mark before the Swarms can close the distance. Which also means that that DS has been driven off successfully for at least 10+ seconds where it is not participating in any meaningful manner - it all be dropping off/picking up no troops, nor firing at enemies.
BARAGAMOS wrote:The purpose of the Swarms is to keep Vehicles from dominating he battlefield.
This is a ground combat game and is centered on that.
Vehicles augment that strategy. Swarms/AVG are the only thing that keeps the game from devolving into that.
Ah of course, because warfare doesn't involve vehicles in any meaningful manner Your definition of ground combat is 'infantry combat' - that is majorly different from what DUST is; which is a combined arms game. CoD Modern Warfare is a ground combat game with no vehicles, or more reasonably identified as an infantry combat game: Battlefield is a series that involves ground combat game heavily that includes the extensive use of vehicles, both ground and aerial; Dust is far more akin to Battlefield in overall feel than CoD.
Anyway Swarms are not the only AV weapon. But they are by far and away the most commonly used because they are so simply a baby could use them.
BARAGAMOS wrote:To be honest, I know a lot of guys like padding their K/D with ADS, but they were not meant to kill or suppress an entire area. They are transport units capable of knocking guys off high ground. Right now on most large maps they can camp an open area and unless you get out the av your team can't cross it. Light weapons don't damage them so AV is really the only answer...so it should ******* kill them. Not like the average suit guy can. ADSs do not suppress or kill an entire area, unless they are allowed to by being utterly ignored. A single Swarmer will give an ADS hell and keep them readily in check.
Really though, what is difference between an ADS 'camping/suppressing/killing' an area and a Sniper who has the same area zoned in and kills those same people running across open ground? Your Rifles aren't killing either of them, and both of them are capable of killing the infantry. Obviously there are huge differences in approach, but the principle is basically the same.
And I must point out: I,personally, have not said anything about AV not being allowed/able to kill DSs, simply that Swarms are overly effective at denying airspace to a DS for the effort that the user has to put in. I am all for buffing relevant aspect of the Swarm Launcher in exchange for other aspects (such as aiming) being made a requisite.[/quote]
I think maybe you need to read some threads from the past with actual evidence in them, or even the posts before this one. I can tell you right now half of what said is wrong. I can contrive situations as well if you like where the swarms always miss. The reality is I see maybe 1/5 DS actually get shot down. Most just crash or get forced to recall at worst. The purpose of swarms is to keep the game from being filled with vehicles. Risk/Reward are important parts of the game. You are basically asking to have a very high reward for very low risk. You know, fly around and kill with out any possibility of being killed, scan an entire battlefield, or drop uplinks on high ground. I can tell you right now I fire swarms at DS all the time. All you do is force a withdrawal, unless they are bad pilots. They simply out run the swarms after the first one hits. So, if you are an ADS pilot and you are dying a lot to Swarms its not the swarms...its your bad piloting.
As for the sniper issue that is in fact a bad situation as well, but two wrongs don't make a right. Trying to justify why its ok to fire from the air because snipers can fire form a distance is not really a great argument. Snipers can be killed with any weapon. Not true for an ADS. Someone has to go out of their way and get on a suboptimal fit to do it. That leaves them vulnerable/less effective until they can change or die. |
BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
118
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:50:00 -
[39] - Quote
Nymphadora PK wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:When you decided to buff swarm launchers CCP, did you ever consider the FUADS effect?
The rule seems to be that every person an ADS kills has a 33% chance of butthurt and will respawn with an AV weapon, depending on lack of skills this more often than not is likely to be a swarm launcher. How did you expect the Air game would work out considering that before doing that, AV weapons were more than capable of dealing with dropships? Don't call down an ADS if you don't want me to spawn AV. It's a simple fact of the game. Plus, running an AV suit leaves you pretty handicapped against infantry (especially with swarms), so there is a tradeoff. The point of the game isn't to have a perfect balance in 1v1 situations. It's to have balance in team capabilities. That's why there's now a cap on vehicles on the field, so the whole team can't run a vehicle fleet. But those that run vehicles have to watch out for those speced into AV. So quit QQ'ing over swarms and out run the things, or have squad mates hunt the swarms down for you.
Exactly. The crying for unkillable skytanks is real of late. I can tell some guys have ran out of stuff to skill into and are looking for new ways to enjoy the game or something.
The focus of the game is to be tactical shooter, and flying around with no risk of counterplay seems like an idiotic request. Sadly, it's posted about once a day on here. |
Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
you should work at fox news mate, you're very good at making up BS and presenting it as fact.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:58:00 -
[41] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:Nymphadora PK wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:When you decided to buff swarm launchers CCP, did you ever consider the FUADS effect?
The rule seems to be that every person an ADS kills has a 33% chance of butthurt and will respawn with an AV weapon, depending on lack of skills this more often than not is likely to be a swarm launcher. How did you expect the Air game would work out considering that before doing that, AV weapons were more than capable of dealing with dropships? Don't call down an ADS if you don't want me to spawn AV. It's a simple fact of the game. Plus, running an AV suit leaves you pretty handicapped against infantry (especially with swarms), so there is a tradeoff. The point of the game isn't to have a perfect balance in 1v1 situations. It's to have balance in team capabilities. That's why there's now a cap on vehicles on the field, so the whole team can't run a vehicle fleet. But those that run vehicles have to watch out for those speced into AV. So quit QQ'ing over swarms and out run the things, or have squad mates hunt the swarms down for you. Exactly. The crying for unkillable skytanks is real of late. I can tell some guys have ran out of stuff to skill into and are looking for new ways to enjoy the game or something. The focus of the game is to be tactical shooter, and flying around with no risk of counterplay seems like an idiotic request. Sadly, it's posted about once a day on here.
So seeming as we are just making crap up, I can assume from your posting that you couldn't careless about the balance between Swarms and dropships, you think anyone that isn't running around with the same suit and rifle as you is some kinda video game deviant, so basically you're a cod kiddie that can't afford to upgrade to a ps4, thanks for dropping by and contributing to the discussion.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:01:00 -
[42] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:Nymphadora PK wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:When you decided to buff swarm launchers CCP, did you ever consider the FUADS effect?
The rule seems to be that every person an ADS kills has a 33% chance of butthurt and will respawn with an AV weapon, depending on lack of skills this more often than not is likely to be a swarm launcher. How did you expect the Air game would work out considering that before doing that, AV weapons were more than capable of dealing with dropships? Don't call down an ADS if you don't want me to spawn AV. It's a simple fact of the game. Plus, running an AV suit leaves you pretty handicapped against infantry (especially with swarms), so there is a tradeoff. The point of the game isn't to have a perfect balance in 1v1 situations. It's to have balance in team capabilities. That's why there's now a cap on vehicles on the field, so the whole team can't run a vehicle fleet. But those that run vehicles have to watch out for those speced into AV. So quit QQ'ing over swarms and out run the things, or have squad mates hunt the swarms down for you. Exactly. The crying for unkillable skytanks is real of late. I can tell some guys have ran out of stuff to skill into and are looking for new ways to enjoy the game or something. The focus of the game is to be tactical shooter, and flying around with no risk of counterplay seems like an idiotic request. Sadly, it's posted about once a day on here.
more BS assumptions about the motives of people based on zero actual evidence, is that you Glenn Beck?
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
The problem with dear.s has always been the lack of a dedicated anti-air variant. We need to have one that does a lot of damage for killing tanks but with slow missiles to make it hard to kill dropships, and one with fast maneuverable missiles that can easily catch dropships but do less damage per swarm.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:13:00 -
[44] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote: I can contrive situations as well if you like where the swarms always miss. The reality is I see maybe 1/5 DS actually get shot down. *sigh* I hate arguing with Swarm apologists...
Thing is, AV gets rewarded for causing damage - causing vehicles (that aren't Madrugars) to retreat - where vehicles do not, they only get WP for actual kills. The point of that is that AV doesn't need to kill to be worthwhile.
AVers can kill vehicles, and AVers do kill vehicles. That doesn't mean that they should render a vehicle useless without effort.
And again, I'm not arguing for a flying tank, I want a DS that is relevant in a fight. I'm fine with dropships being eminently killable, but at the same time paying 350k+ ISK per ship is extortionate. The issue is that ADSs are not worth 350k+ per ship: either they should come down in price to match their capabilities, or be increased in capabilities to match their cost.
Give me a flimsy as **** ship that I can lose twelve in a battle and still make a small profit - exactly like a Dropsuit can. I'm fine dying a lot,I just want to enjoy my role.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:The problem with dear.s has always been the lack of a dedicated anti-air variant. We need to have one that does a lot of damage for killing tanks but with slow missiles to make it hard to kill dropships, and one with fast maneuverable missiles that can easily catch dropships but do less damage per swarm.
that would make a lot of sense, but frankly any change that doesn't allow these sub 1 kdr wonders to one shot a vehicle won't be good enough.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Bremen van Equis
Incorruptibles
594
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Shorten lock-on range of swarms to match (as best as possible) the range where infantry targets actually render for the ADS pilot.
Buckle up, boysGǪthis ramp leads to space. -Axe Cop
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BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
118
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:22:00 -
[47] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:I was trying to be conservative, but yeah reactionary AV is as fierce as it is persistent, you kill one guy he will pull out his best AV, kill him while hes using that AV he activates uber butthurt mode and will either call a redline tank or try to ram you with another dropship, some ppl will go to amazing lengths to get their revenge on a skywhale.
The worst thing though is killing someone in a squad, you've got almost no chance once you hinder a squad in their stompage, all 4 guys will turn protoAV plus tanks on you, and once they get their kill they'll keep atleast one guy on the high ground somewhere just waiting for you, 500m bubble of no fly zone goes up and all dropship fun ceases. And you're surprised by this? A self professed non-gun carrier like yourself? All you can see is your lack of dropship fun. Perhaps you should consider the non-fun that the infantry you mercilessly slaughter are having. People like to carry on like an ADS getting 30+ kills back in the day was some kind of crime against humanity, but seem to overlook the many matches where a guy with a rifle does the same kinda killing, the only difference is "wah my AR can't kill a dropship in under 1 second" perhaps with your follow up post you'll tell me to get some ground game like some rail tanker i repeatedly chased into the redline yesterday. In the rock paper scissors game dropships appear to be the forgotten 4th move, with some fairly minor changes a bit of balance could be restored without throwing everything else out of whack, for example giving them a higher resistance to swarms, vs forge and plasma cannons the balance is fine, but swarms especially high level suit enhanced ones are just far too much of an I win button.
The guy with a dropsuit on at 30/0 still dies to any weapon on the field. The drop ship does not. He also can't retreat at 400m per second. The only crying I'm seeing is guys that want to take a support role into the spot light and can't. Vehicles play a support role here guys. If you want free kills play another game. There is no issue right now with a ADS getting in and getting out to actually DROP guys and uplinks, or shoot the other teams uplinks. When they start thinking they are flying tanks people are going to shoot you down. Right now the only effective (and in truth its marginal) way to do that is swarms.
Just change your way of thinking. ADS are not a drop suit. Its not meant to be. Its a supporting role not a slayer role, play it like that. |
BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
118
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:28:00 -
[48] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:BARAGAMOS wrote: I can contrive situations as well if you like where the swarms always miss. The reality is I see maybe 1/5 DS actually get shot down. *sigh* I hate arguing with Swarm apologists... Thing is, AV gets rewarded for causing damage - causing vehicles (that aren't Madrugars) to retreat - where vehicles do not, they only get WP for actual kills. The point of that is that AV doesn't need to kill to be worthwhile. AVers can kill vehicles, and AVers do kill vehicles. That doesn't mean that they should render a vehicle useless without effort. And again, I'm not arguing for a flying tank, I want a DS that is relevant in a fight. I'm fine with dropships being eminently killable, but at the same time paying 350k+ ISK per ship is extortionate. The issue is that ADSs are not worth 350k+ per ship: either they should come down in price to match their capabilities, or be increased in capabilities to match their cost. Give me a flimsy as **** ship that I can lose twelve in a battle and still make a small profit - exactly like a Dropsuit can. I'm fine dying a lot,I just want to enjoy my role.
Got to agree with the cost issue. They are way too costly. Again though, I don't see a lot of them shot down playing their support role. I see them dying while trying to be flying tanks not DROP ships. Swarms keep them from being a flying tank. That is a good thing not bad. Good pilots can still be super relevant in a game they just need to realize they are not going to be 30/0 with no risk. |
Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:BARAGAMOS wrote: I can contrive situations as well if you like where the swarms always miss. The reality is I see maybe 1/5 DS actually get shot down. *sigh* I hate arguing with Swarm apologists... Thing is, AV gets rewarded for causing damage - causing vehicles (that aren't Madrugars) to retreat - where vehicles do not, they only get WP for actual kills. The point of that is that AV doesn't need to kill to be worthwhile. AVers can kill vehicles, and AVers do kill vehicles. That doesn't mean that they should render a vehicle useless without effort. And again, I'm not arguing for a flying tank, I want a DS that is relevant in a fight. I'm fine with dropships being eminently killable, but at the same time paying 350k+ ISK per ship is extortionate. The issue is that ADSs are not worth 350k+ per ship: either they should come down in price to match their capabilities, or be increased in capabilities to match their cost. Give me a flimsy as **** ship that I can lose twelve in a battle and still make a small profit - exactly like a Dropsuit can. I'm fine dying a lot,I just want to enjoy my role. Got to agree with the cost issue. They are way too costly. Again though, I don't see a lot of them shot down playing their support role. I see them dying while trying to be flying tanks not DROP ships. Swarms keep them from being a flying tank. That is a good thing not bad. Good pilots can still be super relevant in a game they just need to realize they are not going to be 30/0 with no risk.
yeah cause there totally isn't the word ASSAULT in the name of the dropships we are talking about.
Keep talking about a role you've never bothered to try, if you do try flying a dropship especially the assault variant, you'd see first hand just how much they do die.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:37:00 -
[50] - Quote
They'd die a lot more if framerate and hit detection didn't cause forge gun aim to be all herky-jerky and sh*t.
But that applies to literally every weapon/dropsuit/tank/insertfavoritethinghere
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:39:00 -
[51] - Quote
Define support. Then explain how it is worth that much WP/SP/ISK for the effort.
I'm glad you agree they're too expensive, because without slaying as an option (and why not?!) the WP gain of a DS pilot is abysmal.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:40:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:BARAGAMOS wrote: I can contrive situations as well if you like where the swarms always miss. The reality is I see maybe 1/5 DS actually get shot down. *sigh* I hate arguing with Swarm apologists... Thing is, AV gets rewarded for causing damage - causing vehicles (that aren't Madrugars) to retreat - where vehicles do not, they only get WP for actual kills. The point of that is that AV doesn't need to kill to be worthwhile. AVers can kill vehicles, and AVers do kill vehicles. That doesn't mean that they should render a vehicle useless without effort. And again, I'm not arguing for a flying tank, I want a DS that is relevant in a fight. I'm fine with dropships being eminently killable, but at the same time paying 350k+ ISK per ship is extortionate. The issue is that ADSs are not worth 350k+ per ship: either they should come down in price to match their capabilities, or be increased in capabilities to match their cost. Give me a flimsy as **** ship that I can lose twelve in a battle and still make a small profit - exactly like a Dropsuit can. I'm fine dying a lot,I just want to enjoy my role.
A lot of people forget that the warpoints for damaging vehicles was a cookie given for having an average warpoint score of around what, 200-300 when you go full-crazy on an AV role. Back when you actually had to KILL to get WP, it wasn't added to justify relegating AV to deterrence. It was added to address a very real value-imbalance in actual gameplay.
And yes, I think vehicles are too expensive. I also think that as a role they need to be sustainable but die at a rate akin to dropsuits K/D-wise. Sustainable to LOSE at that K/D rate. If it's not sustainable and it's not disposable, it's not really a DUST role, it's a power up.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Beld Errmon
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:47:00 -
[53] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:
Right now the only effective (and in truth its marginal) way to do that is swarms.
What little credibility you had on this subject is completely trashed with this one sentence.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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