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Jack the Rlpper
TRAILS AND TRIBULATIONS
No Context
223
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Posted - 2015.07.10 21:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Between yesterday and today Ive lost 15mil isk and 2 skins. 15 Mil to Ali lol99 and 2 skins to a David L33 who is working wth whiteguy pasty white.
n++pâçGòÉS+Ç +50 n++pâçGòÉS+Ç +60
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DeadlyAztec11
Defenders of the Helghast Dream
8
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 21:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Get reliable third person negotiators.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Vitharr Foebane
2
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Posted - 2015.07.10 21:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
if i were you id only do business with ppl from well known corps
Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V
My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Bremen van Equis
Incorruptibles
560
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 21:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Keep spendin' most our lives livin' in the mercsta's paradise...
Buckle up, boysGǪthis ramp leads to space. -Axe Cop
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Vlad Rostok
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
169
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Posted - 2015.07.10 21:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Those aren't scams. It's outright theft. Problem is many of the r-tards in "New Eden" don't know a "scam" from "theft". Do you suppose we should be grateful they aren't out stealing purses from old ladies? Because it's sort of the same behaviour. Evidence of the same character flaw. |
Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 21:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Didn't realise they'd turned on full player trading yet. |
Ghosts Chance
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.10 22:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Minmatar is Winmatar
Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind"
I am Chances Ghost
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Veg Hegirin
DUST University
Ivy League
78
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Posted - 2015.07.10 22:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rekt |
Ghosts Chance
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.10 22:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
i have a serpent scout i can sell you on the cheap just to make up for those losses of yours
Minmatar is Winmatar
Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind"
I am Chances Ghost
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IR Scifi
Ready to Play
185
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Posted - 2015.07.10 22:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vlad Rostok wrote:Those aren't scams. It's outright theft. Problem is many of the r-tards in "New Eden" don't know a "scam" from "theft". Do you suppose we should be grateful they aren't out stealing purses from old ladies? Because it's sort of the same behaviour. Evidence of the same character flaw.
Did they somehow hack into your account and trade them away when you weren't looking? No? You say you willing selected GIVE item and didn't get what was expected in return? Sorry friend that's not theft. It seriously sucks I agree and CCP should get us a proper trading system asap but let's not go crazy pretending this is something it's not. Next you'll try convincing me that piracy is something other than stealing **** on the high seas. |
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Mrgugernaut
The Naughty Ninjas
12
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Posted - 2015.07.10 22:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
"welcome to new Eden "
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Vlad Rostok
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
170
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 22:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
IR Scifi wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:Those aren't scams. It's outright theft. Problem is many of the r-tards in "New Eden" don't know a "scam" from "theft". Do you suppose we should be grateful they aren't out stealing purses from old ladies? Because it's sort of the same behaviour. Evidence of the same character flaw. Did they somehow hack into your account and trade them away when you weren't looking? No? You say you willing selected GIVE item and didn't get what was expected in return? Sorry friend that's not theft. It seriously sucks I agree and CCP should get us a proper trading system asap but let's not go crazy pretending this is something it's not. Next you'll try convincing me that piracy is something other than stealing **** on the high seas.
I wouldn't deal with anyone I didn't personally know, especially in the realm of "New Eden" where being a "scammer" is some sort of f*cked up badge of honour. If I offered up something for sale IRL and the buyer didn't pay up upon goods receipt or their cheque bounced, then g*ddamn right it's theft. And deserving of retribution.
|
Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 22:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
IR Scifi wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:Those aren't scams. It's outright theft. Problem is many of the r-tards in "New Eden" don't know a "scam" from "theft". Do you suppose we should be grateful they aren't out stealing purses from old ladies? Because it's sort of the same behaviour. Evidence of the same character flaw. Did they somehow hack into your account and trade them away when you weren't looking? No? You say you willing selected GIVE item and didn't get what was expected in return? Sorry friend that's not theft. It seriously sucks I agree and CCP should get us a proper trading system asap but let's not go crazy pretending this is something it's not. Next you'll try convincing me that piracy is something other than stealing **** on the high seas.
I think you should consider looking up the word theft, because I don't think it means what you think it means. If an agreement to trade was made and they didn't fulfill their end of the trade then that's theft. It's pretty much a textbook definition of theft. If you walk into a shop and agree to pay money for an item, they hand you a bag with the stuff and ask for your money, what do you think would happen if you just walked out of the shop as you'd been handed the item? I'll put money on it you'd be arrested and charged for theft.
I do agree with you on not pretending that it's something it's not, but you're trying to pretend it wasn't theft when by any definition it was. |
Ghosts Chance
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 22:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vlad Rostok wrote:IR Scifi wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:Those aren't scams. It's outright theft. Problem is many of the r-tards in "New Eden" don't know a "scam" from "theft". Do you suppose we should be grateful they aren't out stealing purses from old ladies? Because it's sort of the same behaviour. Evidence of the same character flaw. Did they somehow hack into your account and trade them away when you weren't looking? No? You say you willing selected GIVE item and didn't get what was expected in return? Sorry friend that's not theft. It seriously sucks I agree and CCP should get us a proper trading system asap but let's not go crazy pretending this is something it's not. Next you'll try convincing me that piracy is something other than stealing **** on the high seas. I wouldn't deal with anyone I didn't personally know, especially in the realm of "New Eden" where being a "scammer" is some sort of f*cked up badge of honour. If I offered up something for sale IRL and the buyer didn't pay up upon goods receipt or their cheque bounced, then g*ddamn right it's theft. And deserving of retribution.
thats actually fraud not theft from a legal standpoint.
fraud is a violation of a lgeal contract or agreement. any sales could as a legal agreement. theft however is the change of property without consent or legal agreement.
akafraud = scamming
it is YOU who do not understand the difference between froud and theft good sir
Minmatar is Winmatar
Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind"
I am Chances Ghost
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Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:IR Scifi wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:Those aren't scams. It's outright theft. Problem is many of the r-tards in "New Eden" don't know a "scam" from "theft". Do you suppose we should be grateful they aren't out stealing purses from old ladies? Because it's sort of the same behaviour. Evidence of the same character flaw. Did they somehow hack into your account and trade them away when you weren't looking? No? You say you willing selected GIVE item and didn't get what was expected in return? Sorry friend that's not theft. It seriously sucks I agree and CCP should get us a proper trading system asap but let's not go crazy pretending this is something it's not. Next you'll try convincing me that piracy is something other than stealing **** on the high seas. I wouldn't deal with anyone I didn't personally know, especially in the realm of "New Eden" where being a "scammer" is some sort of f*cked up badge of honour. If I offered up something for sale IRL and the buyer didn't pay up upon goods receipt or their cheque bounced, then g*ddamn right it's theft. And deserving of retribution. thats actually fraud not theft aka scamming
No, it's theft. Fraud is a specific form of theft. Scamming is also theft, but in Eve it's specifically allowed, I've not seen such an exemption in any of the Dust Terms of Use allowing it though. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
24
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Posted - 2015.07.10 23:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Let's be honest here.
It doesn't take any intelligence to scam in DUST. It just takes being a ****.
Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
Gallente Guide
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Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:IR Scifi wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:Those aren't scams. It's outright theft. Problem is many of the r-tards in "New Eden" don't know a "scam" from "theft". Do you suppose we should be grateful they aren't out stealing purses from old ladies? Because it's sort of the same behaviour. Evidence of the same character flaw. Did they somehow hack into your account and trade them away when you weren't looking? No? You say you willing selected GIVE item and didn't get what was expected in return? Sorry friend that's not theft. It seriously sucks I agree and CCP should get us a proper trading system asap but let's not go crazy pretending this is something it's not. Next you'll try convincing me that piracy is something other than stealing **** on the high seas. I wouldn't deal with anyone I didn't personally know, especially in the realm of "New Eden" where being a "scammer" is some sort of f*cked up badge of honour. If I offered up something for sale IRL and the buyer didn't pay up upon goods receipt or their cheque bounced, then g*ddamn right it's theft. And deserving of retribution. thats actually fraud not theft from a legal standpoint. fraud is a violation of a lgeal contract or agreement. any sales could as a legal agreement. theft however is the change of property without consent or legal agreement. akafraud = scamming it is YOU who do not understand the difference between froud and theft good sir
No, it is you who don't understand the difference. Fraud is using any deliberate deception to achieve unfair/unlawful gain. Which is strangely almost the exact same definition as theft. Fraud is just applied to specific crimes where an individual victim is harder to identify.
Of course the confusion arises in that fraud can also be used to gain items without a specific value or nebulous legal benefits to which they are not entitled. For example obtaining a driving license or passport not in your name is also considered fraud. However, in this case, goods were taken without payment. The method is irrelevant, it's theft. Though the two are very closely related. |
Ghosts Chance
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:IR Scifi wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:Those aren't scams. It's outright theft. Problem is many of the r-tards in "New Eden" don't know a "scam" from "theft". Do you suppose we should be grateful they aren't out stealing purses from old ladies? Because it's sort of the same behaviour. Evidence of the same character flaw. Did they somehow hack into your account and trade them away when you weren't looking? No? You say you willing selected GIVE item and didn't get what was expected in return? Sorry friend that's not theft. It seriously sucks I agree and CCP should get us a proper trading system asap but let's not go crazy pretending this is something it's not. Next you'll try convincing me that piracy is something other than stealing **** on the high seas. I wouldn't deal with anyone I didn't personally know, especially in the realm of "New Eden" where being a "scammer" is some sort of f*cked up badge of honour. If I offered up something for sale IRL and the buyer didn't pay up upon goods receipt or their cheque bounced, then g*ddamn right it's theft. And deserving of retribution. thats actually fraud not theft aka scamming No, it's theft. Fraud is a specific form of theft. Scamming is also theft, but in Eve it's specifically allowed, I've not seen such an exemption in any of the Dust Terms of Use allowing it though.
i dont see a specific exemption alowinng people to leave their mics oipen with screaming children in the room either but aparently thats alowed....
you show a very clearn misunderstanding of how things work so im done here
Minmatar is Winmatar
Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind"
I am Chances Ghost
|
Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:
No, it's theft. Fraud is a specific form of theft. Scamming is also theft, but in Eve it's specifically allowed, I've not seen such an exemption in any of the Dust Terms of Use allowing it though.
Ghosts Chance wrote:i dont see a specific exemption alowinng people to leave their mics oipen with screaming children in the room either but aparently thats alowed....
you show a very clearn misunderstanding of how things work so im done here
scamming isnt a legal term... scam is the commons of fraud... they are one in the same. fraud and theft are two very different legal definitions.
Congratulations on using reductio ad absurdem like a child because they've been proven wrong. Specific exemptions for that is entirely unnecessary. It's discourteous, not illegal or even morally wrong. Your suggestion implies that they should have a specific exemption for everything that irritates you?
Theft is wrong, and moreover in any other game of its type is not tolerated and so a specific exemption is granted in EvE specifying that it is allowed and so to guard against it.
The misunderstanding is not mine, but yours for thinking that theft is allowed and normal behaviour and should be placed on the same level of behaviour as an open microphone. One hopes you're just trolling.
No, fraud and theft are almost the same legal definition. Fraud IS theft, or more importantly, a specific form of theft. |
Ghosts Chance
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:
Congratulations on using reductio ad absurdem like a child because they've been proven wrong. Specific exemptions for that is entirely unnecessary. It's discourteous, not illegal or even morally wrong. Your suggestion implies that they should have a specific exemption for everything that irritates you?
Theft is wrong, and moreover in any other game of its type is not tolerated and so a specific exemption is granted in EvE specifying that it is allowed and so to guard against it.
The misunderstanding is not mine, but yours for thinking that theft is allowed and normal behaviour and should be placed on the same level of behaviour as an open microphone. One hopes you're just trolling.
No, fraud and theft are almost the same legal definition. Fraud IS theft, or more importantly, a specific form of theft.
*slow clap* congratulations for reading a "forumwarrior" 101 manual aka debate theory
but its actually a relevent example
leaving an open mic on with screaming children in the room while your not activly using said mic is ALSO wrong. but in this instance right and wrong are defined prurely be legal and illegal, and in the world we live in things are legal untill they are expressly deemed illegal though judicial review. (case law being what tends to define these judgements)
so not only did you pull out debate theory 101 you used it incorrectly.
rule 1 of debate theory, dont quote the rules of debate theory as part of your argument, they are mealy tools to show you weaknesses in an agument so you can form a counter argument, not a counter argument unto themselves.
you will learn young padawan
in this case replace judicial review with moderator review and you end up with a judgement of it being legal due to CCP as a companys stance on the subject of non-interfearance. CCP has historically gone out of its way NOT to punish acts liek these in dust in the past and as such its reasonable to assume they will continue to hold that position, meaning its legal untill CCP deems otherrwise rather than being illegal untill CCP deems it legal.
Minmatar is Winmatar
Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind"
I am Chances Ghost
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Victor889
WarRavens
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
281
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Why isn't there some sort of defence against this?
Surely it should be - player offers item, player pays for item end of discussion.
If it's ever - player doesn't receive item/funds, there should be an option to recall the transaction and both parties are no worse (or better) off.
Personally, I'm not trading with anyone but my alt until they make it fair. |
Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
57
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Krias Thracian wrote:Krias Thracian wrote:
No, it's theft. Fraud is a specific form of theft. Scamming is also theft, but in Eve it's specifically allowed, I've not seen such an exemption in any of the Dust Terms of Use allowing it though.
i dont see a specific exemption alowinng people to leave their mics oipen with screaming children in the room either but aparently thats alowed.... you show a very clearn misunderstanding of how things work so im done here scamming isnt a legal term... scam is the commons of fraud... they are one in the same. fraud and theft are two very different legal definitions. Congratulations on using reductio ad absurdem like a child because they've been proven wrong. Specific exemptions for that is entirely unnecessary. It's discourteous, not illegal or even morally wrong. Your suggestion implies that they should have a specific exemption for everything that irritates you? Theft is wrong, and moreover in any other game of its type is not tolerated and so a specific exemption is granted in EvE specifying that it is allowed and so to guard against it. The misunderstanding is not mine, but yours for thinking that theft is allowed and normal behaviour and should be placed on the same level of behaviour as an open microphone. One hopes you're just trolling. No, fraud and theft are almost the same legal definition. Fraud IS theft, or more importantly, a specific form of theft.
Ghosts Chance wrote:*slow clap* congratulations for reading a "forumwarrior" 101 manual aka debate theory
but its actually a relevent example
leaving an open mic on with screaming children in the room while your not activly using said mic is ALSO wrong. but in this instance right and wrong are defined prurely be legal and illegal, and in the world we live in things are legal untill they are expressly deemed illegal though judicial review. (case law being what tends to define these judgements)
so not only did you pull out debate theory 101 you used it incorrectly.
No, it's not wrong at all. It is likely negligence, or they're busy, your implication is that they are deliberately doing it to irritate you, which would be wrong. Without intent there is no moral argument to be made so the action is negligent, not morally wrong in any way and therefore completely irrelevant and no place in this discussion. As I said, you are comparing an act of negligence with an act that is illegal. That the act takes place in an online setting doesn't change that.
Theft IS illegal. It is defined as such and you have no clue how legality is actually defined. The Judiciary do not define legality. They enforce the law (and in America have the unique power to strike down laws incompatible with the Constitution). The law is defined by the legislative branches of government, who also set the punishment for said laws.
As I said, Theft is illegal. Fraud is also a form of theft and also illegal. As they are both illegal, within the framework of the game there is a specific exemption for EvE that allows it.
I refuse to lower myself to the act of going and actually finding legislation wording for them because you clearly have no actual idea how the law is formed or works. |
Ghosts Chance
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Victor889 wrote:Why isn't there some sort of defence against this?
Surely it should be - player offers item, player pays for item end of discussion.
If it's ever - player doesn't receive item/funds, there should be an option to recall the transaction and both parties are no worse (or better) off.
Personally, I'm not trading with anyone but my alt until they make it fair.
your going to be waiting untill never.
CCP purpposly creates these unfair systems to alow for this unfairness to take place. scamming and theft have NEVER been outlawed in the new eden universe, the only cost of doing it is a hit to your reputation (wich people avoid by using alts, like in real life using an alias)
Minmatar is Winmatar
Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind"
I am Chances Ghost
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Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
1
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
This stems from a direct laziness on CCP Shanghai's part, even in EVE which everyone is so happy to point out when they say "Welcome to New Eden" they don't have blind trading. Both parties see the goods being exchanged and both have to accept before the deal is done. Even contracts in EVE spell out the amount of money offered/requested and show the items being offered.
Acquisition is terrible, matchmaking is terrible, your game is still riddled with bugs, you should feel bad.
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EternalRMG
Random Gunz
Rise Of Legion.
1
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Posted - 2015.07.10 23:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Victor889 wrote:Why isn't there some sort of defence against this?
Surely it should be - player offers item, player pays for item end of discussion.
If it's ever - player doesn't receive item/funds, there should be an option to recall the transaction and both parties are no worse (or better) off.
Personally, I'm not trading with anyone but my alt until they make it fair.
you could use a trusted middle man
BPOs for Sale
Dust Player Since: July 2012
Best Assault Dropship Pilot in the Game
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devjo88
0.P.
77
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Who cares
efforts and courage are not good enough without purpose and direction
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devjo88
0.P.
77
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Posted - 2015.07.10 23:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
Who cares
efforts and courage are not good enough without purpose and direction
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Ghosts Chance
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.10 23:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:
No, it's not wrong at all. It is likely negligence, or they're busy, your implication is that they are deliberately doing it to irritate you, which would be wrong. Without intent there is no moral argument to be made so the action is negligent, not morally wrong in any way and therefore completely irrelevant and no place in this discussion. As I said, you are comparing an act of negligence with an act that is illegal. That the act takes place in an online setting doesn't change that.
Theft IS illegal. It is defined as such and you have no clue how legality is actually defined. The Judiciary do not define legality. They enforce the law (and in America have the unique power to strike down laws incompatible with the Constitution). The law is defined by the legislative branches of government, who also set the punishment for said laws.
As I said, Theft is illegal. Fraud is also a form of theft and also illegal. As they are both illegal, within the framework of the game there is a specific exemption for EvE that allows it.
I refuse to lower myself to the act of going and actually finding legislation wording for them because you clearly have no actual idea how the law is formed or works.
please learn to quote properly....
i think i see the issue here, your confusing moral actions with legal actions. an action can be both immoral AND legal at the same time, as well as being moral and illegal, slavery being the most famous example.
Theft in the real world is illegal, said laws to not extend innto the digial fictional property world of eve however and so without an official CCP ruling on the subject it is legal untill proven otherwise based on the tennant of innocent untill proven guilty.
you find this all the time in many other games, a distant time ago i did RMT in various games by running custom written automation scripts and selling off the profits, not at first theres nothing to prevent this type of behavior, people get away with it and despite its questionable ethics its generally alowed UNTILL the company desides otherwise.
another classic example of this is multiboxing (controlling multiple accounts by passing keystrokes view software or hardware to multiple clients simultaniously)
Some games expressly forbit this behavior for one reason or another, but it actually took quite a while for CCP to come to its own conclusion bouncing back and fourth between alowing it and disalowing it in various forms (now outlawed). people using this method BEFORE said judgement was passed were not punished because they were not YET breaking any rules, however people doing it after were. this sets the precedent that CCPs own policy is to alow things untill they specifically state otherwise. and seeing ass how no negative judgements have ever been placed upon a dust player for theft we can saftly assume that this is certany the case still.
we also live in two different countries and our goverments function slightly differently and so the technicals of it are not worth arguing at this point, but case law is essential in US law for determining the giant grey area when something SHOULDNT be legal but isnt expressly illegal someone drags the case through the courts (varied depending on nation) and a judgement is made one way or another based on previous judgements made or clarifications on exsisting laws. (at least as far as my understanding of that system goes.)
Minmatar is Winmatar
Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind"
I am Chances Ghost
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TIGER SHARK1501
Savage Bullet
RUST415
273
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Posted - 2015.07.11 02:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
Jack the Rlpper wrote:Between yesterday and today Ive lost 15mil isk and 2 skins. 15 Mil to Ali lol99 and 2 skins to a David L33 who is working wth whiteguy pasty white.
 |
I-Shayz-I
I----------I
5
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Posted - 2015.07.11 03:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
Steps to not get scammed:
1. Isk first, always. Especially for trading single items like skins.
2. If it is anything above 10m, always do multiple trades. Don't just give them 25m first. Make sure they are okay with it and trade half first, and then the other half afterwards.
3. If there is anything you are hesitant about, always ask around if people know that person, add them as a contact and look up his stats, use outside resources to see what corps they are in, etc. Don't trade with people that have weird names as there is a higher likelyhood of it being a throwaway alt.
4. If the trade is a large purchase of 50m (or more than half of your total assests) use a trusted intermediate. Both players trade to the middleman who then gives the items to opposite sides.
5. Never trust anyone.
6. If you can use comms, do it. People that will reveal their voice are most likely to be trusted.
7. Lastly, you could always say that you record every trade that you make. I'm able to because I have a recording device, but if you're able to bluff well it can convince scammers to not deal with you. (this actually worked for me once, as a guy I knew was a scammer eventually cooperated with me when he knew I was recording him)
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
1
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Posted - 2015.07.11 03:45:00 -
[31] - Quote
Dust 514. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. You must watch your step.
Official CPM Platform
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Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
357
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Posted - 2015.07.11 04:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
It's not a 'dust' thing, it's a 'New Eden' thing, you know, the universe we're supposed to be in.
and in that universe scamming is a legit form of progression. The mechanic was placed exactly with the intent in mind that players could get scammed and would need to use third parties or other trust systems to trade.
We got the tool to interact with each other - now it's up to us to play nice. That's true sandbox, and fighting against it blows my mind. It's one of the very few things CCP has done right. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
12
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Posted - 2015.07.11 04:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
I offer my sympathies.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Darken-Sol
Intruder Excluder
2
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Posted - 2015.07.11 04:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Dust 514. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. You must watch your step.
Unless you have no legs. Or eyes.
Crush them
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Operative 1174 Uuali
True Companion Planetary Requisitions
898
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Posted - 2015.07.11 06:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
IR Scifi wrote:Vlad Rostok wrote:Those aren't scams. It's outright theft. Problem is many of the r-tards in "New Eden" don't know a "scam" from "theft". Do you suppose we should be grateful they aren't out stealing purses from old ladies? Because it's sort of the same behaviour. Evidence of the same character flaw. Did they somehow hack into your account and trade them away when you weren't looking? No? You say you willing selected GIVE item and didn't get what was expected in return? Sorry friend that's not theft. It seriously sucks I agree and CCP should get us a proper trading system asap but let's not go crazy pretending this is something it's not. Next you'll try convincing me that piracy is something other than stealing **** on the high seas.
Yeah, it is. Piracy is also when you make an illegal copy of a movie or song. BAM!
See also, butts.
MY CPM2 PLATFORM
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demonkiller 12
TERRA R1SING
New Eden's Heros
863
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Posted - 2015.07.11 09:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
So basically, you were dumb enough to get scammed, i understand |
Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
59
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Posted - 2015.07.11 09:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
Jack the Rlpper wrote:Between yesterday and today Ive lost 15mil isk and 2 skins. 15 Mil to Ali lol99 and 2 skins to a David L33 who is working wth whiteguy pasty white.
I'd suggest you raise a ticket, there's nothing in the Terms of Service or Rules of Conduct to allow it and if the trade mechanic is broken and is how this was done, then they may return your stuff.
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IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
711
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Posted - 2015.07.11 10:23:00 -
[38] - Quote
I sympathize, but CCP will define this as scamming and they give the blind eye to encourage player based trust systems, as was previously mentioned.
You won't find in-game 'justice' from CCP. You will have to get it for yourself somehow and that is also encouraged by CCP.
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
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Count- -Crotchula
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
108
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Posted - 2015.07.11 12:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
For the person who mistakenly sees this as theft and not fraud (and for the person who has exhausted all options save copy and pasting legal framework). The words "fraud by misrepresentation" came to mind, so I googled it to make sure.
"Fraud by Misrepresentation (or fraudulent misrepresentation) under Section 2 Fraud Act 2006
Section 2 Fraud Act 2006 sets out the framework of the classic fraud offence. The offence usually consists of some sort of dishonest statement made to gain something or so that someone else makes a loss. This offence is one that will often apply to an offence committed in business. The four necessary elements that must be proved in order to result in a conviction are:
A representation must be made
The representation must be known to be false
The representation must be dishonestly made
The person making the representation must intend to gain something, or intend that the person receiving it loses something"
Perhaps we should have an insterstellar court of justice? |
Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
59
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Posted - 2015.07.11 12:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
Count- -Crotchula wrote:For the person who mistakenly sees this as theft and not fraud (and for the person who has exhausted all options save copy and pasting legal framework). The words "fraud by misrepresentation" came to mind, so I googled it to make sure.
"Fraud by Misrepresentation (or fraudulent misrepresentation) under Section 2 Fraud Act 2006
Section 2 Fraud Act 2006 sets out the framework of the classic fraud offence. The offence usually consists of some sort of dishonest statement made to gain something or so that someone else makes a loss. This offence is one that will often apply to an offence committed in business. The four necessary elements that must be proved in order to result in a conviction are:
A representation must be made
The representation must be known to be false
The representation must be dishonestly made
The person making the representation must intend to gain something, or intend that the person receiving it loses something"
Perhaps we should have an insterstellar court of justice?
Once again, Theft is obtaining something that is not yours with the intent to deprive an individual of it. You gaining or someone making a loss does not necessarily imply that you took their items, which is why fraud can be different. But as you seem to want to be a moron about it, here is the legal definition of theft:
A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and GÇ£thiefGÇ¥ and GÇ£stealGÇ¥ shall be construed accordingly.
(2)It is immaterial whether the appropriation is made with a view to gain, or is made for the thiefGÇÖs own benefit.
(3)The five following sections of this Act shall have effect as regards the interpretation and operation of this section (and, except as otherwise provided by this Act, shall apply only for purposes of this section).
Annotations: Help about Annotation
Modifications etc. (not altering text)
C3S. 1(1) applied (25.8.2000) by 2000 c. 6, ss. 148(8), 168
2GÇ£DishonestlyGÇ¥
(1)A personGÇÖs appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonestGÇö
(a)if he appropriates the property in the belief that he has in law the right to deprive the other of it, on behalf of himself or of a third person; or
(b)if he appropriates the property in the belief that he would have the otherGÇÖs consent if the other knew of the appropriation and the circumstances of it; or
(c)(except where the property came to him as trustee or personal representative) if he appropriates the property in the belief that the person to whom the property belongs cannot be discovered by taking reasonable steps.
(2)A personGÇÖs appropriation of property belonging to another may be dishonest notwithstanding that he is willing to pay for the property.
See the rather significant bit about Dishonestly Appropriates Property that does not belong to them? That's EXACTLY what scamming items off of someone is. You've been dishonest and taken goods that aren't yours. The canadian version of the law even SPECIFIES that it can be done fraudulently. Would you like to continue to defend your idiotically doomed position?
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.11 15:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:
and in that universe scamming is a legit form of progression. The mechanic was placed exactly with the intent in mind that players could get scammed and would need to use third parties or other trust systems to trade.
We got the tool to interact with each other - now it's up to us to play nice. That's true sandbox, and fighting against it blows my mind. It's one of the very few things CCP has done right.
So much no.
The mechanic was not placed with the intent players could get scammed. That's really stupid to even suggest.
Keep telling yourself scamming is "legitimate" if you need to, but it's not.
The trade system is incomplete, and will be fixed, to the detriment of people like you
Official CPM Platform
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Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
62
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:23:00 -
[42] - Quote
This is particularly relevant to this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jonstone/make-love-not-warcraft#.xqy4xwveny
God I hope that's a joke, as it could have rather frightening implications for EvE in particular, but many other online games.... |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
12
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:41:00 -
[43] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:No, it's theft. Fraud is a specific form of theft. Scamming is also theft, but in Eve it's specifically allowed, I've not seen such an exemption in any of the Dust Terms of Use allowing it though.
It's possible that CCP is just assuming that you would know by now that any game based in New Eden will allow scams, theft, corporate espionage, ransoming, and even suicide ganking.
But I feel it would be best if CCP would just update the ToS for Dust to reflect that. This way, people wouldn't be so confused about it.
But it's also possible that CCP may not have included that little detail at the time of writing because everyone assumed that Dust will not have a secondary market and thus no point in mentioning about scams. But then all of a sudden CCP Rattati comes in and BAAAMMM! we got a secondary market now.
PS: But even CCP has its limits on what type of asshattery is to be allowed. Impersonation is not allowed. Scamming with codes is not allowed. I don't think scamming in the character bazaar in Eve is allowed (but I could be wrong).
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
12
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:Jack the Rlpper wrote:Between yesterday and today Ive lost 15mil isk and 2 skins. 15 Mil to Ali lol99 and 2 skins to a David L33 who is working wth whiteguy pasty white. I'd suggest you raise a ticket, there's nothing in the Terms of Service or Rules of Conduct to allow it and if the trade mechanic is broken and is how this was done, then they may return your stuff.
Just so you know, even though the ToS doesn't say anything about it, CCP Rattati posted on the forums a long time ago that scamming is expected and everyone assumed that CCP will not respond to any petitions about that sort of stuff.
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Leither Yiltron
Molon Labe.
1
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:49:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Krias Thracian wrote:
Congratulations on using reductio ad absurdem like a child because they've been proven wrong. Specific exemptions for that is entirely unnecessary. It's discourteous, not illegal or even morally wrong. Your suggestion implies that they should have a specific exemption for everything that irritates you?
Theft is wrong, and moreover in any other game of its type is not tolerated and so a specific exemption is granted in EvE specifying that it is allowed and so to guard against it.
The misunderstanding is not mine, but yours for thinking that theft is allowed and normal behaviour and should be placed on the same level of behaviour as an open microphone. One hopes you're just trolling.
No, fraud and theft are almost the same legal definition. Fraud IS theft, or more importantly, a specific form of theft.
Stuff
Dude, the guy's on a brand spanking new noobie character arguing rot. Clearly just trolling.
I don't usually say this, but if you get scammed HTFU.
Have a pony
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
12
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:This is particularly relevant to this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jonstone/make-love-not-warcraft#.xqy4xwvenyGod I hope that's a joke, as it could have rather frightening implications for EvE in particular, but many other online games.... Of course, if something like this does end up happening, be it in 2 years, 5 years or 10 years then EvE, or whatever takes its place if it's not around any more will probably cry as their customer base of loyal sociopaths evaporates when the first court case comes through. Could be pretty funny.....
Not going to happen. First off, Eve Online is played globally. How will you even convince the country to even charge the player if the developers were the ones that allowed it in the first place? Do you have any idea how many players in Eve steal and scam? You can safely assume almost all of them barring the new players. And even the new players will eventually turn to the dark side of Eve. You will have to practically arrest everyone who plays Eve Online because everything in Eve is tied somehow to real-world cash via the PLEX system.
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Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
62
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Posted - 2015.07.14 20:53:00 -
[47] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Krias Thracian wrote:This is particularly relevant to this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jonstone/make-love-not-warcraft#.xqy4xwvenyGod I hope that's a joke, as it could have rather frightening implications for EvE in particular, but many other online games.... Of course, if something like this does end up happening, be it in 2 years, 5 years or 10 years then EvE, or whatever takes its place if it's not around any more will probably cry as their customer base of loyal sociopaths evaporates when the first court case comes through. Could be pretty funny..... Not going to happen. First off, Eve Online is played globally. How will you even convince the country to even charge the player if the developers were the ones that allowed it in the first place? Do you have any idea how many players in Eve steal and scam? You can safely assume almost all of them barring the new players. And even the new players will eventually turn to the dark side of Eve. You will have to practically arrest everyone who plays Eve Online because everything in Eve is tied somehow to real-world cash via the PLEX system.
That's why it would be funny. :) Though to answer your question, the same way Microsoft and Google and Apple keep getting screwed by the EU for unfair business practices/lack of ethics. You operate globally, you have to abide by the laws of the country you're operating it. Don't get me wrong, it would only apply to people from the specific country, I can't see anyone but the US trying for extradition over something like that, but that would just make it funnier.
Like I said, it would be hysterical.
Though I have been playing EvE for over 6 years and I have yet to scam anyone. Ganked a few times. Never scammed. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
12
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Posted - 2015.07.14 21:00:00 -
[48] - Quote
Krias Thracian wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Krias Thracian wrote:This is particularly relevant to this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jonstone/make-love-not-warcraft#.xqy4xwvenyGod I hope that's a joke, as it could have rather frightening implications for EvE in particular, but many other online games.... Of course, if something like this does end up happening, be it in 2 years, 5 years or 10 years then EvE, or whatever takes its place if it's not around any more will probably cry as their customer base of loyal sociopaths evaporates when the first court case comes through. Could be pretty funny..... Not going to happen. First off, Eve Online is played globally. How will you even convince the country to even charge the player if the developers were the ones that allowed it in the first place? Do you have any idea how many players in Eve steal and scam? You can safely assume almost all of them barring the new players. And even the new players will eventually turn to the dark side of Eve. You will have to practically arrest everyone who plays Eve Online because everything in Eve is tied somehow to real-world cash via the PLEX system. That's why it would be funny. :) Though to answer your question, the same way Microsoft and Google and Apple keep getting screwed by the EU for unfair business practices/lack of ethics. You operate globally, you have to abide by the laws of the country you're operating it. Don't get me wrong, it would only apply to people from the specific country, I can't see anyone but the US trying for extradition over something like that, but that would just make it funnier. Like I said, it would be hysterical. Though I have been playing EvE for over 6 years and I have yet to scam anyone. Ganked a few times. Never scammed.
You ganked? So you're a pirate like me. You cost a player their money as you attacked unprovoked. Welcome to the dark side of Eve Online.
PS: Eve Online and Dust 514 seem to present a unique set of legal challenges here for the industry.
PPS: I wonder how many players get scammed out of their own PLEX that they paid cash for when they accept certain contracts. Even the regional markets seem to be teeming with scams as buyers set orders to some value that looks like a high value but is not. If a player is too much in a hurry and fire sells the PLEX without checking, bye bye PLEX.
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
2
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Posted - 2015.07.14 21:11:00 -
[49] - Quote
This thread makes my day, as i have recently settled a fraudulent claims/failure to produce suit involving my farm and the feed mill i used to buy from.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Fraud at times can be theft, and fraud at times, will not be theft.
As well as theft at times can have fraudulent roots, where as other times is just straight boosting something.
If you have to argue for days about it, i suggest you go to law school.
And finally,
LOLOLOLOLOL.
Currently in recluse bitter-vet mode.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
12
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Posted - 2015.07.14 21:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:This thread makes my day, as i have recently settled a fraudulent claims/failure to produce suit involving my farm and the feed mill i used to buy from.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Fraud at times can be theft, and fraud at times, will not be theft.
As well as theft at times can have fraudulent roots, where as other times is just straight boosting something.
If you have to argue for days about it, i suggest you go to law school.
And finally,
LOLOLOLOLOL.
Law school doesn't teach you jack **** about what happens when you become a victim of scamming and theft in a game that allows it because the devs allow it. We are talking about outliers here. Or as I call it, the grey areas of the video game industry. Is it really punishable in the real world when you commit a crime in a game that clearly allows it like Eve Online? If I were to scam you right now or rob your player corporation's ISK and assets in Eve, will that mean you can file charges against me in the real world court?
Unlike actual real-world farms like you mentioned, laws are not clearly defined when it comes to in-game shenanigans like you see here in Dust or Eve. Even if the law becomes updated later on to make them clearly defined, would the law accommodate for developers who actually allow such shenanigans in their games?
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Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
64
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Posted - 2015.07.15 13:56:00 -
[51] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:This thread makes my day, as i have recently settled a fraudulent claims/failure to produce suit involving my farm and the feed mill i used to buy from.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Fraud at times can be theft, and fraud at times, will not be theft.
As well as theft at times can have fraudulent roots, where as other times is just straight boosting something.
If you have to argue for days about it, i suggest you go to law school.
And finally,
LOLOLOLOLOL. Law school doesn't teach you jack **** about what happens when you become a victim of scamming and theft in a game that allows it because the devs allow it. We are talking about outliers here. Or as I call it, the grey areas of the video game industry. Is it really punishable in the real world when you commit a crime in a game that clearly allows it like Eve Online? If I were to scam you right now or rob your player corporation's ISK and assets in Eve, will that mean you can file charges against me in the real world court? Unlike actual real-world farms like you mentioned, laws are not clearly defined when it comes to in-game shenanigans like you see here in Dust or Eve. Even if the law becomes updated later on to make them clearly defined, would the law accommodate for developers who actually allow such shenanigans in their games?
Indeed, though there are precedents of course. EvE and Dust both have very specific rules in their TOC against Online Bullying and Racism and all the -isms, undoubtedly partly because they are illegal in almost every country where CCP Operates.
It would be a rather dangerous precedent if "Virtual Theft" were given the same legal weight as "Real Theft" and CCP would have the choice to either stop operating in countries that implemented such a law, or comply with said law. Like I said, it would be funny as hell. |
LOL KILLZ
LulKlz
246
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Posted - 2015.07.15 14:28:00 -
[52] - Quote
See this is why I started a secure trade channel, but did anyone join? NO!!! Don't give your items up first. Your BPO and skins are in high demand. If someone doesn't want to pay first, go to the next one.
CEO of LulKlz/ chat channel LulKlz, code 0000 <--- numbers
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