You're still going to run into issues where weapons with more damage per bullet effectively have a much larger range when it comes to breaking shield regen because they can afford more falloff and subsiquently more damage lost per shot, than a smaller damage round.

I see what point you are trying to make. It's just completely wrong. I've highlighted the point that completely refutes the point you were trying to make but you are seeming to ignore.

Jecture, do you think that shields are the equal of armor? What is your opinion on the balance currently?

Well considering I have been running my Cal Assault a great deal lately, I would have to say they are still UP from armor. This leaves me with the feeling that you guys are pushing for something not really needed. The problem with that point is highlighted above as well.

For a loadout that works very well. Std Cal Assault: Energizer, Recharger, Damage mod, Any Pea shooter, Nades for spam, Uplink, Armor repairer.

Basic rules of engagement state that finding cover from enemy bullets is preferable to standing in front of them. Finding cover allows shields to regenerate. Play to cover and exploit the armor tanker's weakness by regenerating all your health before he can find you and continue nibbling off his giblets until they are all gone.

Bearing in mind that there is a problem with this logic in that shield extenders increase shield recharge delay, which means that unless you fit a hefty amount of shield regulators the time you'll need to be in cover isn't practical.

Consider this situation:

A Cal Assault using a Rail Rifle against a Gallente Assault with an Assault Rifle.

They start firing at one another and at 70m or so the Rail Rifle is doing it's job at doing damage - but the problem is that the entire time the Gallente Assault is recovering from at least some of the damage. Whereas, the Caldari Assault is incapable of recovering from the damage, so as long as the Gallente Assault stays mobile, diving in and out of cover to abuse the Rail Rifle's charge-up time, and fires he can at least drop the Cal Assault's shields enough that he'll be vulnerable at close range where his playstyle excels.

The Cal Assault dives into cover to regain some shields, but because he has an 8-10 second shield recharge delay, the Gallente Assault can use this opportunity to rush him. Sprinting at 7m/s or so, he can cover anywhere from 56-70 meters, putting him -WELL- within optimal range of his Assault Rifle. That whole time he's been regenerating armor and has a substantial advantage in this fight.

Whereas, if we had damage threshold, perhaps the Caldari Assault wouldn't have had to choose between dying and diving into cover. Perhaps, at that range, the Gallente Assault can't break his damage threshold and can't advance because he'll lose too much HP in the process.

Just a theory.

Std weapons vs proto? Yes.

EDIT:

im not sure which weapons you have issue with.

smg vs breach smg for example?

std smg vs proto smg?

smg vs rail rifle?

except for weapon tiers, all weapons and their variants have their own weapon optimal ranges anyways. an AR wouldnt break the shields of some using an RR +70m away because that outside the AR's range, but maybe not for the TAC AR.

im not sure which weapons you think would have superior range for breaking shield regen compared to other weapon of similar type besides std vs adv vs proto weapons of the same type.

Terrible example, mostly due to your use of a terribad AR. Secondly RR are still op vs armor/shield so..,.dive for cover and git gud. Here's a good example: Dragonfly Assault Tactical Sniper walks up to Pro Gal Logi Sniper and point blank shoots him 2x for a kill...Tru story. The point is that we're all diving for cover, no one is immune to the damage or better able to tank, its damaged or not damaged thats all.

I understand your point but fail to accept that it is indeed an issue due to running both shield tanked as well as armor tanked suits. My example happened in a match I fought not 5 minutes ago. I was literally clubbing the other sniper with my tip of my rifle. No I did not have an armor plate fit. The reality of the game is that there are few one v one engagements, most are tank v infantry or ASCRs (multiple) vs one target. This is blobby warfare Aeon, not the lone gunman vs the lone gunman.

It's all good, that was a terrible enough rebuttal.

Please cite the source, I am pretty sure I would have noticed this sometime over the last 4-5 years.

I wrote a pretty lengthy explanation earlier in the thread outlining my concerns.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Passive_shield_tanking

when i said damage threshold i was loosely referring to shield peak regen rate. which of course is the amount of incoming dps you can take. every ship in eve has a native peak regen value. armor does not

i read it again and its worse than you think because you didnt factor in damage profile vs shields. youre range would be even less.

but im still asking why youre trying to fight a ARR at long range with a short range weapon? you compared a shorter range weapon to a long range weapon and then complained when the ACR had less effective range for breaking shield regen.

if it were a real siuation id be using the ACR on mim assault where i could simply run up to you if i could and kill you. even with no damage threshold i would sit at range and pepper you to death. there are other mechanics too that work here. you can not look at a damage threshold out of context.

the point of a damage threshold it to provide shield tankers with the ability to hold their own on open ground against remote rep armor tankers. that the only use i'd have for it besides blocking idiots 200m away pinging you with smg.

so perhaps theres something better than an absolute avalue for damage threshhold

Why not remove the ping to stop shield regen then and modify shield recharge rates to a much much lower value. This would also make sense because this would not make shields OP, unfortunately what has been proposed in here would.

It would mean there would need to be more DPS incoming than X amount to affect shields when in actuality, what you describe as being from Eve, is Passive Regen mitigating a portion of incoming DPS. The DPS still affects the shield level, but is regenerated passively over the time needed to regenerate it rather than being ignored.

There is absolutely no reason a player should be able to stand in a storm of bullets on open ground and survive. Logi Reps being the exception, and they work on shield tankers too btw, so long as the rep rate is high enough to mitigate incoming DPS.

The hilarious thing you all forget is that damage mods negate the disadvantage of regen not breaking outside optimal. Skills also would affect this.

Shield regen should break when the shields hace lost more than 20-25% capacity.

And please provide legitimate arguments other than 'you used an AR in your example' and 'we shouldn't balance for 1v1'.

If the reason is to make it "like eve" and you want the regen to continue while being pinged then yeah. Obviously I am not suggesting changing anything on the shields my response was in merely an illustration of how passive regen works in Eve not a description of how I want things to be. I personally don't like sniffing glue either though.

No we shouldn't balance for 1v1, there are rare 1v1s in this game unless you go hide somewhere away from the objectives, then someone will find you. Oh but how about 5v5 lets balance for that or better yet 5v1. This game is more blobby than Eve and it makes no sense why you would want 5 ppl each getting tagged by one stray bullet from an smg at mid range to regenerate their shields as if it were nothing.

Incoming DPS on a lone gunman, would obliterate him rather quickly with any rifles. How about we look at a case where a sniper is keeping your squad pinned down and while separately the incoming dps at long range from your rifles will likely not be enough to take him down through his shields with your proposal, 6 people shooting, at range, at him likely wouldn't either.

You ask for arguments with 1v1? Player A is using an SMG Player B has an AR and the engagement is mid range at the edge of the SMG's engagement range. I think you know where I'm going with this but, Player A bullet hoses Player B, all shots land on target. Player B's shields don't dip at all. Player B line's up his shots, looks around for snipers then pulls the trigger sending a short burst into Player A's head. We all know who the winner in that engagement is.

I see no reason to change this, and btw you are asking them to bring back a CB feature that was tested and proved to be OP even with tuning. It was difficult to kill anyone using any sort of damage threshold, battles were lasting "too long" and there were not enough tears on the forums.

If the reason is to make it "like eve" and you want the regen to continue while being pinged then yeah. Obviously I am not suggesting changing anything on the shields my response was in merely an illustration of how passive regen works in Eve not a description of how I want things to be. I personally don't like sniffing glue either though.

No we shouldn't balance for 1v1, there are rare 1v1s in this game unless you go hide somewhere away from the objectives, then someone will find you. Oh but how about 5v5 lets balance for that or better yet 5v1. This game is more blobby than Eve and it makes no sense why you would want 5 ppl each getting tagged by one stray bullet from an smg at mid range to regenerate their shields as if it were nothing.

Incoming DPS on a lone gunman, would obliterate him rather quickly with any rifles. How about we look at a case where a sniper is keeping your squad pinned down and while separately the incoming dps at long range from your rifles will likely not be enough to take him down through his shields with your proposal, 6 people shooting, at range, at him likely wouldn't either.

You ask for arguments with 1v1? Player A is using an SMG Player B has an AR and the engagement is mid range at the edge of the SMG's engagement range. I think you know where I'm going with this but, Player A bullet hoses Player B, all shots land on target. Player B's shields don't dip at all. Player B line's up his shots, looks around for snipers then pulls the trigger sending a short burst into Player A's head. We all know who the winner in that engagement is.

I see no reason to change this, and btw you are asking them to bring back a CB feature that was tested and proved to be OP even with tuning. It was difficult to kill anyone using any sort of damage threshold, battles were lasting "too long" and there were not enough tears on the forums.

This might have been brought up already, but what if shield mechanics were changed to be like EVE?

Example:

In Eve, shields regen constantly, but at low amounts (EX 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) the speed of which can be varied by modules, and if the shield is under a certain threshold, I forget if it is 0% or 25%.

I think this would be alot better than the current Dust mechanics.

more blobby than eve +1000 man fleets? i think not

You are arguing just to argue at this point. Sorry that we can't put 1000+vs 1000+ on field, still the effect is the same, horde of bodies running after a few or all of whomever spawns in and doesn't leave battle.

You must have forgotten that I was around during Closed Beta too and there was a hell of a lot more to it than damage threshold (which I don't remember ever being a thing) what with hit detection issues and lack of aim assist. I never once said that this should be "like Eve" although now that you bring it up I will say that there are a few things that we can borrow from a - brace for it - successful game that's had twelve years of experience with these sort of things.

So, how on earth do you propose we balance anything at all..?

no i mentioned it before but they mostly ignored it. skills would only help anit shield weapons. go figure lol.

so those guys have to drop their shield extenders for damage mods.... oh no, how horrible lol

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on the 25%... that sounds reasonable.

you can add extenders to get a better buffer if needed too.

on 526 shield hp, you can take ~131.5 shield damage before shield regen stops

on 634 shield hp, it'd be ~158.5

on 707 shield hp, it's 176.75 before shields break.

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I certainly cannot claim to know how the game is coded, however I would like to point out that the check of efficiency rating between attacker and defender is already done after collision, and used for damage application. It would be a matter of using that % value to determine whether the hit deserves to shut off shield regen or not.

What I mean is that there is a very good chance that it won't add extra load, only ccp can answer for certain.

you are saying that if the rating is, idk, 75% or below, then you wouldnt be able to stop shield regen?

im sorry i clearly missed this