DUST Search - Minimum Damage Threshold to Break Shield Regen

Aeon Amadi wrote:

DJINN Jecture wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Bearing in mind that there is a problem with this logic in that shield extenders increase shield recharge delay, which means that unless you fit a hefty amount of shield regulators the time you'll need to be in cover isn't practical.

Consider this situation:

A Cal Assault using a Rail Rifle against a Gallente Assault with an Assault Rifle.

They start firing at one another and at 70m or so the Rail Rifle is doing it's job at doing damage - but the problem is that the entire time the Gallente Assault is recovering from at least some of the damage. Whereas, the Caldari Assault is incapable of recovering from the damage, so as long as the Gallente Assault stays mobile, diving in and out of cover to abuse the Rail Rifle's charge-up time, and fires he can at least drop the Cal Assault's shields enough that he'll be vulnerable at close range where his playstyle excels.

The Cal Assault dives into cover to regain some shields, but because he has an 8-10 second shield recharge delay, the Gallente Assault can use this opportunity to rush him. Sprinting at 7m/s or so, he can cover anywhere from 56-70 meters, putting him -WELL- within optimal range of his Assault Rifle. That whole time he's been regenerating armor and has a substantial advantage in this fight.

Whereas, if we had damage threshold, perhaps the Caldari Assault wouldn't have had to choose between dying and diving into cover. Perhaps, at that range, the Gallente Assault can't break his damage threshold and can't advance because he'll lose too much HP in the process.

Just a theory.

Terrible example, mostly due to your use of a terribad AR. Secondly RR are still op vs armor/shield so..,.dive for cover and git gud. Here's a good example: Dragonfly Assault Tactical Sniper walks up to Pro Gal Logi Sniper and point blank shoots him 2x for a kill...Tru story. The point is that we're all diving for cover, no one is immune to the damage or better able to tank, its damaged or not damaged thats all.

I understand your point but fail to accept that it is indeed an issue due to running both shield tanked as well as armor tanked suits. My example happened in a match I fought not 5 minutes ago. I was literally clubbing the other sniper with my tip of my rifle. No I did not have an armor plate fit. The reality of the game is that there are few one v one engagements, most are tank v infantry or ASCRs (multiple) vs one target. This is blobby warfare Aeon, not the lone gunman vs the lone gunman.

It's all good, that was a terrible enough rebuttal.


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DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 358	Posted - 2015.04.29 20:44:00 - [1] - Quote Ok so shield damage threshold gets implemented, we putting an armor damage threshold on too? It only seems fair. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 363	Posted - 2015.04.30 05:11:00 - [2] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Ok so shield damage threshold gets implemented, we putting an armor damage threshold on too? It only seems fair. The shield damage threshold come from following eve. Armor doesn't have one Please cite the source, I am pretty sure I would have noticed this sometime over the last 4-5 years. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 363	Posted - 2015.04.30 05:19:00 - [3] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Ok so shield damage threshold gets implemented, we putting an armor damage threshold on too? It only seems fair. Armor already has a damage threshold of infinity, since it repairs while taking damage already, regardless of incoming DPS. I think everyone who responded missed the point I was trying to make. Shields also repair whether repaired or not, given built in shield recharge. Given how quickly shields regen in comparison to armor this seems kind of unfair, favoring even one race over another for damage thresholds, not to mention the fact that even shield tankers have armor, you all (for damage threshold changes) seem to think that there is something broken. I do not believe this is the case for the above stated reasons. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 364	Posted - 2015.04.30 12:45:00 - [4] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Ok so shield damage threshold gets implemented, we putting an armor damage threshold on too? It only seems fair. Armor already has a damage threshold of infinity, since it repairs while taking damage already, regardless of incoming DPS. I think everyone who responded missed the point I was trying to make. Shields also repair whether repaired or not, given built in shield recharge. Given how quickly shields regen in comparison to armor this seems kind of unfair, favoring even one race over another for damage thresholds, not to mention the fact that even shield tankers have armor, you all (for damage threshold changes) seem to think that there is something broken. I do not believe this is the case for the above stated reasons. I see what point you are trying to make. It's just completely wrong. *I've highlighted the point that completely refutes the point you were trying to make* but you are seeming to ignore. Jecture, do you think that shields are the equal of armor? What is your opinion on the balance currently? Well considering I have been running my Cal Assault a great deal lately, I would have to say they are still UP from armor. This leaves me with the feeling that you guys are pushing for something not really needed. The problem with that point is highlighted above as well. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 364	Posted - 2015.04.30 13:02:00 - [5] - Quote My favorite shield tanking fit is slightly different: Dragonfly Assault Krins Damage Application Stick x3 Toxin AR Toxin SMG Militia Locus Grenade [BPO] Militia Uplink [BPO] Militia Armor Repairer [BPO] This suit actually has survived longer on some maps than my All Pro Fat Suit just because it (the fitting described) has a shield tank. My pro fat suit is a Turbo Turtle in case anyone is interested. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 365	Posted - 2015.04.30 14:30:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bearing in mind that there is a problem with this logic in that shield extenders increase shield recharge delay, which means that unless you fit a hefty amount of shield regulators the time you'll need to be in cover isn't practical. Consider this situation: A Cal Assault using a Rail Rifle against a Gallente Assault with an Assault Rifle. They start firing at one another and at 70m or so the Rail Rifle is doing it's job at doing damage - but the problem is that the entire time the Gallente Assault is recovering from at least some of the damage. Whereas, the Caldari Assault is incapable of recovering from the damage, so as long as the Gallente Assault stays mobile, diving in and out of cover to abuse the Rail Rifle's charge-up time, and fires he can at least drop the Cal Assault's shields enough that he'll be vulnerable at close range where his playstyle excels. The Cal Assault dives into cover to regain some shields, but because he has an 8-10 second shield recharge delay, the Gallente Assault can use this opportunity to rush him. Sprinting at 7m/s or so, he can cover anywhere from 56-70 meters, putting him -WELL- within optimal range of his Assault Rifle. That whole time he's been regenerating armor and has a substantial advantage in this fight. Whereas, if we had damage threshold, perhaps the Caldari Assault wouldn't have had to choose between dying and diving into cover. Perhaps, at that range, the Gallente Assault can't break his damage threshold and can't advance because he'll lose too much HP in the process. Just a theory. Terrible example, mostly due to your use of a terribad AR. Secondly RR are still op vs armor/shield so..,.dive for cover and git gud. Here's a good example: Dragonfly Assault Tactical Sniper walks up to Pro Gal Logi Sniper and point blank shoots him 2x for a kill...Tru story. The point is that we're all diving for cover, no one is immune to the damage or better able to tank, its damaged or not damaged thats all. I understand your point but fail to accept that it is indeed an issue due to running both shield tanked as well as armor tanked suits. My example happened in a match I fought not 5 minutes ago. I was literally clubbing the other sniper with my tip of my rifle. No I did not have an armor plate fit. The reality of the game is that there are few one v one engagements, most are tank v infantry or ASCRs (multiple) vs one target. This is blobby warfare Aeon, not the lone gunman vs the lone gunman. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 365	Posted - 2015.04.30 16:45:00 - [7] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Bearing in mind that there is a problem with this logic in that shield extenders increase shield recharge delay, which means that unless you fit a hefty amount of shield regulators the time you'll need to be in cover isn't practical. Consider this situation: A Cal Assault using a Rail Rifle against a Gallente Assault with an Assault Rifle. They start firing at one another and at 70m or so the Rail Rifle is doing it's job at doing damage - but the problem is that the entire time the Gallente Assault is recovering from at least some of the damage. Whereas, the Caldari Assault is incapable of recovering from the damage, so as long as the Gallente Assault stays mobile, diving in and out of cover to abuse the Rail Rifle's charge-up time, and fires he can at least drop the Cal Assault's shields enough that he'll be vulnerable at close range where his playstyle excels. The Cal Assault dives into cover to regain some shields, but because he has an 8-10 second shield recharge delay, the Gallente Assault can use this opportunity to rush him. Sprinting at 7m/s or so, he can cover anywhere from 56-70 meters, putting him -WELL- within optimal range of his Assault Rifle. That whole time he's been regenerating armor and has a substantial advantage in this fight. Whereas, if we had damage threshold, perhaps the Caldari Assault wouldn't have had to choose between dying and diving into cover. Perhaps, at that range, the Gallente Assault can't break his damage threshold and can't advance because he'll lose too much HP in the process. Just a theory. Terrible example, mostly due to your use of a terribad AR. Secondly RR are still op vs armor/shield so..,.dive for cover and git gud. Here's a good example: Dragonfly Assault Tactical Sniper walks up to Pro Gal Logi Sniper and point blank shoots him 2x for a kill...Tru story. The point is that we're all diving for cover, no one is immune to the damage or better able to tank, its damaged or not damaged thats all. I understand your point but fail to accept that it is indeed an issue due to running both shield tanked as well as armor tanked suits. My example happened in a match I fought not 5 minutes ago. I was literally clubbing the other sniper with my tip of my rifle. No I did not have an armor plate fit. The reality of the game is that there are few one v one engagements, most are tank v infantry or ASCRs (multiple) vs one target. This is blobby warfare Aeon, not the lone gunman vs the lone gunman. It's all good, that was a terrible enough rebuttal. You're right, armor regenerates (if repped) and shields already do so if not taking fire. All in all though I think if we had more cover on maps in random places so people don't need to dive for cover but could rather step into it, you would see a marked difference in the game. To use something from GRP, cover stops bullets, shooting from cover stops some bullets and shooting at the targets instead of beside them works better. The reason I bring this up is that a while back (CB) someone suggested being able to shoot from cover, others have suggested being able to go prone, all of these things seem like good parts of gunplay but are absent from DUST, and would make marked improvements in how players move and can avoid getting OHKed as regularly (maybe) as they do now. It also may improve tactics on maps with a good deal of open space. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 365	Posted - 2015.05.01 03:29:00 - [8] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Ok so shield damage threshold gets implemented, we putting an armor damage threshold on too? It only seems fair. The shield damage threshold come from following eve. Armor doesn't have one Please cite the source, I am pretty sure I would have noticed this sometime over the last 4-5 years. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Passive_shield_tanking when i said damage threshold i was loosely referring to shield peak regen rate. which of course is the amount of incoming dps you can take. every ship in eve has a native peak regen value. armor does not Why not remove the ping to stop shield regen then and modify shield recharge rates to a much much lower value. This would also make sense because this would not make shields OP, unfortunately what has been proposed in here would. It would mean there would need to be more DPS incoming than X amount to affect shields when in actuality, what you describe as being from Eve, is Passive Regen mitigating a portion of incoming DPS. The DPS still affects the shield level, but is regenerated passively over the time needed to regenerate it rather than being ignored. There is absolutely no reason a player should be able to stand in a storm of bullets on open ground and survive. Logi Reps being the exception, and they work on shield tankers too btw, so long as the rep rate is high enough to mitigate incoming DPS. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 365	Posted - 2015.05.01 16:01:00 - [9] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: And please provide legitimate arguments other than 'you used an AR in your example' and 'we shouldn't balance for 1v1'. If the reason is to make it "like eve" and you want the regen to continue while being pinged then yeah. Obviously I am not suggesting changing anything on the shields my response was in merely an illustration of how passive regen works in Eve not a description of how I want things to be. I personally don't like sniffing glue either though. No we shouldn't balance for 1v1, there are rare 1v1s in this game unless you go hide somewhere away from the objectives, then someone will find you. Oh but how about 5v5 lets balance for that or better yet 5v1. This game is more blobby than Eve and it makes no sense why you would want 5 ppl each getting tagged by one stray bullet from an smg at mid range to regenerate their shields as if it were nothing. Incoming DPS on a lone gunman, would obliterate him rather quickly with any rifles. How about we look at a case where a sniper is keeping your squad pinned down and while separately the incoming dps at long range from your rifles will likely not be enough to take him down through his shields with your proposal, 6 people shooting, at range, at him likely wouldn't either. You ask for arguments with 1v1? Player A is using an SMG Player B has an AR and the engagement is mid range at the edge of the SMG's engagement range. I think you know where I'm going with this but, Player A bullet hoses Player B, all shots land on target. Player B's shields don't dip at all. Player B line's up his shots, looks around for snipers then pulls the trigger sending a short burst into Player A's head. We all know who the winner in that engagement is. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 365	Posted - 2015.05.02 16:16:00 - [10] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: And please provide legitimate arguments other than 'you used an AR in your example' and 'we shouldn't balance for 1v1'. If the reason is to make it "like eve" and you want the regen to continue while being pinged then yeah. Obviously I am not suggesting changing anything on the shields my response was in merely an illustration of how passive regen works in Eve not a description of how I want things to be. I personally don't like sniffing glue either though. No we shouldn't balance for 1v1, there are rare 1v1s in this game unless you go hide somewhere away from the objectives, then someone will find you. Oh but how about 5v5 lets balance for that or better yet 5v1. This game is more blobby than Eve and it makes no sense why you would want 5 ppl each getting tagged by one stray bullet from an smg at mid range to regenerate their shields as if it were nothing. Incoming DPS on a lone gunman, would obliterate him rather quickly with any rifles. How about we look at a case where a sniper is keeping your squad pinned down and while separately the incoming dps at long range from your rifles will likely not be enough to take him down through his shields with your proposal, 6 people shooting, at range, at him likely wouldn't either. You ask for arguments with 1v1? Player A is using an SMG Player B has an AR and the engagement is mid range at the edge of the SMG's engagement range. I think you know where I'm going with this but, Player A bullet hoses Player B, all shots land on target. Player B's shields don't dip at all. Player B line's up his shots, looks around for snipers then pulls the trigger sending a short burst into Player A's head. We all know who the winner in that engagement is. I see no reason to change this, and btw you are asking them to bring back a CB feature that was tested and proved to be OP even with tuning. It was difficult to kill anyone using any sort of damage threshold, battles were lasting "too long" and there were not enough tears on the forums. more blobby than eve +1000 man fleets? i think not You are arguing just to argue at this point. Sorry that we can't put 1000+vs 1000+ on field, still the effect is the same, horde of bodies running after a few or all of whomever spawns in and doesn't leave battle. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*

DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 365	Posted - 2015.05.02 20:21:00 - [11] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: You must have forgotten that I was around during Closed Beta too and there was a hell of a lot more to it than damage threshold (which I don't remember ever being a thing) what with hit detection issues and lack of aim assist. I never once said that this should be "like Eve" although now that you bring it up I will say that there are a few things that we can borrow from a - brace for it - successful game that's had twelve years of experience with these sort of things. I haven't forgotten, but I don't think that this is the "fix" you are looking for, otherwise I would say sure why not. Others have said this is a fix from Eve, I just don't see this as anything like an Eve fix, and I have indicated why. Your fix, if you want it to be like Eve would need to be x amount of base regen per tick (however long a tick is) and remove the burst ticks of the percentage of shield (because this behaviour is a Dust specific system that would overlap on the changes). Then your shield recharge rate can be affected in a manner that actually reflects a shield recharger, and yes it would eliminate the usefulness of a regulator but this would provide your minimum threshold you are all talking about in here. It means you need x+ amount of base DPS to reduce a person's shields. This is how it would be an EVE based idea. As for the rest, base amount of damage applied to a person's shield to negate recharge is a different idea. I have issues with this because every bullet needs to have higher DPS to affect the shield if this were the case even if they are good solid hits in rapid succession. The Eve based fix is even more of an issue IMO for "fixing shields" which I don't believe have issues because there would need to be a significant reduction in the base shield recharge rate, mostly causing all shield tankers to have a bunch of issues. It would reduce the number of people straight up buffer tanking though so not altogether bad but its a question of which numbers are the right ones... *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 365	Posted - 2015.05.02 20:31:00 - [12] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So, how on earth do you propose we balance anything at all..? How about giving Logis another tool specifically for shield repair? This has been brought up in a number of threads and with borrowing from Eve to fix an issue I think this is the best option. It fills the missing role of shield logi and give caldari logis something useful specifically for the cal logi community as a whole that should help even things out as we see in Eve. This way there is a benefit to having a shield team or an armor team rather than just going armor because they have Logi. This is what I call balance, not fixing the shields that are actually breakable just like armor is. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*