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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1012
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Posted - 2015.04.29 13:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
shield damage threshhold is in the game already. its value is set to zero currently.
all it does is determine how much damage is rquired to stop your shields from regenerating.
setting the value equal to the lowest damage per shot by a weapon (ei. smg or hmg) at its OPTIMAL range would be a good start. what it means is that for most weapons, firing outside of your optimal range will mean you wont be able to break shield regen.
of course raising the threshold would give you shield regen aginst some weapons even while in optimal range. a value equal to an AR would mean combat rifles would not be able to stop your shield regen even while at their optimal ranges. is that desired? idk
another question is can the threshhold be set for each race differently? so caldari would have the best threshold, abd the other races would would iether have lower thresholds, or none at all. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1012
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Posted - 2015.04.29 20:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:shield damage threshhold is in the game already. its value is set to zero currently.
all it does is determine how much damage is rquired to stop your shields from regenerating.
setting the value equal to the lowest damage per shot by a weapon (ei. smg or hmg) at its OPTIMAL range would be a good start. what it means is that for most weapons, firing outside of your optimal range will mean you wont be able to break shield regen.
of course raising the threshold would give you shield regen aginst some weapons even while in optimal range. a value equal to an AR would mean combat rifles would not be able to stop your shield regen even while at their optimal ranges. is that desired? idk
another question is can the threshhold be set for each race differently? so caldari would have the best threshold, abd the other races would would iether have lower thresholds, or none at all. Well you also run into an issue where lower damage per shot weapons would have a more difficult time stopping regen if threshold is on a per bullet. And it should never be "Oh well, the system should be only really effective against this race of weapon". The reason it works with vehicles is because damage from smallarms is greatly reduced so the difference in damage per bullet is effectively less pronounced. Additionally DPS is a dangerous approach to, because as Cat pointed out, that assumes optimal conditions. A quick wiggle wiggle shield suit could effectively be regenerating constantly because the incoming DPS is never sustainable high enough to break regen. Additionally some lower DPS weapons like Mass Driver would likely be unable to break shield regen, even with perfect accuracy. You might have the approach it more from a "the suit can take an amount of damage equal to f(shield_regen_rate) with a period of time equal to f(shield_recharge_delay) to break shield regen" which is more work and more core-code, so likely not going to happen.
What I meant is that if a smg is 20 damage per shot for example, then you set the threshold to 20 or 19 depending on how it actually works. So the only way to break shield regen is to:
Not ******* snipe with a smg from 100m away.
Sorry lol. But yea, really I'm looking to give caldari they place on the fields as the long range fighters. Between weapon falloff and a damage threshold, caldari wouldn't have to hug crates so much. It helps caldari more since their weapons have long optimal ranges and higher shield regen. But it doesn't give them any advantages in cqc, which is where they should be weaker
Breaking shield regen should be simple: get closer. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1012
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Posted - 2015.04.29 20:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
DJINN Jecture wrote:Ok so shield damage threshold gets implemented, we putting an armor damage threshold on too? It only seems fair.
The shield damage threshold come from following eve. Armor doesn't have one |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1013
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Posted - 2015.04.30 03:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Addressing the point of low damage per shot weapons not breaking shield regen:
A threshold of 20 was simply a number I pulled out of my head. It's more involved than I made it seem. Two thing that effect damage I didn't mention before are damage profiles, and damage mods.
If the lowest damage per shot is a smg at 17 damage per shot then I'd say make the threshold about that. But then you factor in projectile damage profile reducing the damage to shields by 15%. So it still wouldn't break shield regen.
But then we must also consider that a smg a cqc weapon, and also anti armor. Is it really unacceptable for it to struggle with breaking shield regen?
What about using damage mods to help break shield regen?
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1013
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Posted - 2015.04.30 03:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Another idea would be to allow zero shield delay while shields are above a certain percent of total shields.
For example, if you have 100 hp of shields, then as long as your shields don't fall below 50 hp you would have zero shield delay. But once your shields fall under that you start getting shield delays.
I kinda don't like this way as much though.
Or we can combine both ideas into one...
If shield hp is 50% or higher of total shield hp, then shields regen constantly.
If shields hp is below 50%, then shield regen stops.
We would still use shield delays like we do currently but they would only apply when shields fall below 50%. This means high alpha weapons could be used to break regen quickly. An smg would struggle but would eventually break shield regen as it can use it's dps to out damage the shield regen, get shields below 50% and then finish off the target.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1013
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Posted - 2015.04.30 09:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Addressing the point of low damage per shot weapons not breaking shield regen:
A threshold of 20 was simply a number I pulled out of my head. It's more involved than I made it seem. Two thing that effect damage I didn't mention before are damage profiles, and damage mods.
If the lowest damage per shot is a smg at 17 damage per shot then I'd say make the threshold about that. But then you factor in projectile damage profile reducing the damage to shields by 15%. So it still wouldn't break shield regen.
But then we must also consider that a smg a cqc weapon, and also anti armor. Is it really unacceptable for it to struggle with breaking shield regen?
What about using damage mods to help break shield regen?
You're still going to run into issues where weapons with more damage per bullet effectively have a much larger range when it comes to breaking shield regen because they can afford more falloff and subsiquently more damage lost per shot, than a smaller damage round.
Std weapons vs proto? Yes. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1014
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Posted - 2015.05.01 02:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
DJINN Jecture wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:Ok so shield damage threshold gets implemented, we putting an armor damage threshold on too? It only seems fair. The shield damage threshold come from following eve. Armor doesn't have one Please cite the source, I am pretty sure I would have noticed this sometime over the last 4-5 years.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Passive_shield_tanking
when i said damage threshold i was loosely referring to shield peak regen rate. which of course is the amount of incoming dps you can take. every ship in eve has a native peak regen value. armor does not |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1014
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Posted - 2015.05.01 02:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Std weapons vs proto? Yes.
EDIT:
im not sure which weapons you have issue with.
smg vs breach smg for example?
std smg vs proto smg?
smg vs rail rifle?
except for weapon tiers, all weapons and their variants have their own weapon optimal ranges anyways. an AR wouldnt break the shields of some using an RR +70m away because that outside the AR's range, but maybe not for the TAC AR.
im not sure which weapons you think would have superior range for breaking shield regen compared to other weapon of similar type besides std vs adv vs proto weapons of the same type.
I wrote a pretty lengthy explanation earlier in the thread outlining my concerns.
i read it again and its worse than you think because you didnt factor in damage profile vs shields. youre range would be even less.
but im still asking why youre trying to fight a ARR at long range with a short range weapon? you compared a shorter range weapon to a long range weapon and then complained when the ACR had less effective range for breaking shield regen.
if it were a real siuation id be using the ACR on mim assault where i could simply run up to you if i could and kill you. even with no damage threshold i would sit at range and pepper you to death. there are other mechanics too that work here. you can not look at a damage threshold out of context.
the point of a damage threshold it to provide shield tankers with the ability to hold their own on open ground against remote rep armor tankers. that the only use i'd have for it besides blocking idiots 200m away pinging you with smg.
so perhaps theres something better than an absolute avalue for damage threshhold |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1015
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Posted - 2015.05.01 09:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
well you could do this....
change the shield delays to kick in after shield hp drops to a certain level.
say maybe 50%? so shields constantly regen until they fall below 50% of total shield hp.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1015
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Posted - 2015.05.01 15:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:The hilarious thing you all forget is that damage mods negate the disadvantage of regen not breaking outside optimal. Skills also would affect this.
Shield regen should break when the shields hace lost more than 20-25% capacity.
no i mentioned it before but they mostly ignored it. skills would only help anit shield weapons. go figure lol.
so those guys have to drop their shield extenders for damage mods.... oh no, how horrible lol
on the 25%... that sounds reasonable.
you can add extenders to get a better buffer if needed too.
on 526 shield hp, you can take ~131.5 shield damage before shield regen stops
on 634 shield hp, it'd be ~158.5
on 707 shield hp, it's 176.75 before shields break.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1015
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Posted - 2015.05.02 07:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
DJINN Jecture wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
And please provide legitimate arguments other than 'you used an AR in your example' and 'we shouldn't balance for 1v1'.
If the reason is to make it "like eve" and you want the regen to continue while being pinged then yeah. Obviously I am not suggesting changing anything on the shields my response was in merely an illustration of how passive regen works in Eve not a description of how I want things to be. I personally don't like sniffing glue either though. No we shouldn't balance for 1v1, there are rare 1v1s in this game unless you go hide somewhere away from the objectives, then someone will find you. Oh but how about 5v5 lets balance for that or better yet 5v1. This game is more blobby than Eve and it makes no sense why you would want 5 ppl each getting tagged by one stray bullet from an smg at mid range to regenerate their shields as if it were nothing. Incoming DPS on a lone gunman, would obliterate him rather quickly with any rifles. How about we look at a case where a sniper is keeping your squad pinned down and while separately the incoming dps at long range from your rifles will likely not be enough to take him down through his shields with your proposal, 6 people shooting, at range, at him likely wouldn't either. You ask for arguments with 1v1? Player A is using an SMG Player B has an AR and the engagement is mid range at the edge of the SMG's engagement range. I think you know where I'm going with this but, Player A bullet hoses Player B, all shots land on target. Player B's shields don't dip at all. Player B line's up his shots, looks around for snipers then pulls the trigger sending a short burst into Player A's head. We all know who the winner in that engagement is. I see no reason to change this, and btw you are asking them to bring back a CB feature that was tested and proved to be OP even with tuning. It was difficult to kill anyone using any sort of damage threshold, battles were lasting "too long" and there were not enough tears on the forums.
more blobby than eve +1000 man fleets? i think not |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1015
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Posted - 2015.05.02 08:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vyuru wrote:This might have been brought up already, but what if shield mechanics were changed to be like EVE?
Example:
In Eve, shields regen constantly, but at low amounts (EX 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) the speed of which can be varied by modules, and if the shield is under a certain threshold, I forget if it is 0% or 25%.
I think this would be alot better than the current Dust mechanics.
you can't do it like in eve for a few reasons.
bad hit detection and lag would cause shots to not register, and your target wouldnt take any damage at all. even from multiple players.
you also wouldnt wouldnt want to set a threshold like that either. it means you'd need to deal 75% shield damage before his shield stop regen. which is bad for the reason i gave above.
a threshold of requiring only 2% damage might work since that's easier to accomplish and can also be done with high damage per shot weapons. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1018
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Posted - 2015.05.03 01:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:I certainly cannot claim to know how the game is coded, however I would like to point out that the check of efficiency rating between attacker and defender is already done after collision, and used for damage application. It would be a matter of using that % value to determine whether the hit deserves to shut off shield regen or not.
What I mean is that there is a very good chance that it won't add extra load, only ccp can answer for certain.
you are saying that if the rating is, idk, 75% or below, then you wouldnt be able to stop shield regen?
im sorry i clearly missed this |
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