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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
Lokun Listamenn
172
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Posted - 2015.03.07 19:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay Imp, heres your thread: I'll get you a reply shortly
Imp Smash wrote:Greiv Rabbah wrote:We dont talk about light heavies because you said it. We talk about it because it used to be a real thing and we recall it. I'm not saying you guys do. I am well aware that everyone that spends any time on Dust has seen L.Weapon Heavies and I am willing to bet ISK that the majority of people are annoyed by it. I am saying 'parroting me' because while I maybe was not the first to complain about heavies using light weapons -- I was one of the first (more so than the other guys who have been in this argument at the very least) to bring it up as a counterpoint in relation to the affects of making HMGs useless in CQC. (Not sure who was the absolute first. I said it early and I said it loud, and have been quoted by Breakin [he quotes me very often actually] as well as a few others. Regardless, I don't care who said it first. I don't care if you are parroting me or if I am parroting you. I only care about the fact that it is true. Let's just be clear on this. Also while we are on the subject about misunderstandings: Greiv Rabbah wrote:You directly addressed what threw me off before about breakin's statement(when I was half asleep) but here you are saying don't say it should be his way bc it should be your way. I don't think it should necessarily be my way either.I am saying that it is the current way because CCP designed it that way. I am saying that because heavies can use light weapons and have more HP than mediums they will ALWAYS be in CQC. I am saying that as long as reptools are as good as they are they will always be largely represented by Gal/Amarr. I am saying that I will go with how CCP designs it. If they change HMGS to be like laser rifles...fine. If they keep heavies CQC and put 100% of the objectives outside in the middle of a grassy field...fine. If the Sentinel cannot use the HMG like a laser as I suspect I will discuss and offer my best thoughts on how to help fix that. I play Dust 514. Unlike many others -- I always keep in mind that I do not own, design, or should be able to alter the game to any vision that I might have. I simply follow what I can guess CCP is trying to do and offer my best advice because I like the game. My opinion on how Dust 'should work' is irrelevant and always has been. Do a search for my name -- you will notice in my posts that I focus on practicality of what they are doing. Not how I think it should work. Example: If heavies were mobile and able to be good area denial, I would have little problem with Breakin's proposal on the HMG being like a laser. Still some problem as my Assault RUNS laser and that would infringe on my already insanely tiny role. And since I already run that role (better than a sent could) I know for a fact how limited and rare it is as far as affecting the main tide of battle. You guys haven't claimed to run that role so you don't have any experience with it as far as I know. ----------------------------------------------- 2 post Rant Over --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I would like a direct answer. All the arguing, debate, rationalization aside... I have 4 simple questions I would like to build a constructive discussion on. Actually it was 3 questions and 2 assertions but I had a brain fart and my thoughts got jumbled. This is what survived the mental chaos. 1. Do you think a change in map design would change how often widespread certain game situations (for example 1000s of heavy HMGs with logis stacking up on objectives) occur? Yes/No. If yes, how much? 2. Do you think that weakening the current HMG in CQC will actually kick heavies out of CQC? Yes/No. If yes, what will they do instead? 3. Do you think CCP doesn't want heavies in CQC? Yes/No/Other. What is your reasoning for believing this? 4. Do you think that future heavy weapons should also not perform in CQC? Yes/No If either, Why? Lets answer those in as few sentences as possible in another thread. Then go from there because the argument took up way too much of this thread which is not just about heavies and we need to simplify it and move it to an appropriate thread. I wanted to hear more discussion on uplinks and backpeddle speed.... Fair enough  . Let me rephrase. The Forums flaming and Anti-Scout posts will be making a comeback. 
Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
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Snake Sellors
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
500
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Posted - 2015.03.07 19:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Having been on dust for a long time now, meaning i have seen many of the issues raised by hmgs and there multiple re-balances, which never seem to quite work out.
i think in all honestly they should really be taken out of cqc and become a heavy support role, a hmg should completely outclass all light weapons in its range, because its a heavy weapon.
so what should they do as a heavy support..
well they should either:
mow down infantry in droves,
destroy vehicles easily,
be an area denial troop.
if a light infantry comes up against a heavy with a heavy weapon without at least another player to help him it should be a forgone conclusion. a heavy with a light weapon should never be competition for a heavy with a heavy weapon, unless it's equipped for av.
as these wont ever work like this in dust with the things the way they are the hmgs won't ever be balanced really.
sad but true because they dont compare well to light weapons and they are getting yet another nerf.. |
Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
Lokun Listamenn
173
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Posted - 2015.03.07 20:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
"I am saying that it is the current way because CCP designed it that way. I am saying that because heavies can use light weapons and have more HP than mediums they will ALWAYS be in CQC. I am saying that as long as reptools are as good as they are they will always be largely represented by Gal/Amarr. I am saying that I will go with how CCP designs it. If they change HMGS to be like laser rifles...fine. If they keep heavies CQC and put 100% of the objectives outside in the middle of a grassy field...fine. If the Sentinel cannot use the HMG like a laser as I suspect I will discuss and offer my best thoughts on how to help fix that."
i'm reading here that we need shield transporters to make heavies more balanced and that we need heavy weapon parity to bring flexibility to the different ranges. i'm also noting that you dont seem aware that every letter on every map is accessible from range and any sniper will tell you so. i dont think hmgs should be like laser rifles i think hmgs should be longer range and flamethrowers should exist in game because a heavy weapon version of the combat rifle should not be outdistanced by a light weapon plasma rifle. a heavy plasma weapon should fill the range slot that HMGs are in. i'll be a little pushy on this because parity is something the game needs.
"Example: If heavies were mobile and able to be good area denial, I would have little problem with Breakin's proposal on the HMG being like a laser. Still some problem as my Assault RUNS laser and that would infringe on my already insanely tiny role. And since I already run that role (better than a sent could) I know for a fact how limited and rare it is as far as affecting the main tide of battle. You guys haven't claimed to run that role so you don't have any experience with it as far as I know."
I'm pretty sure nobody said that the HMG should be like a laser rifle... if so, they were wrong. the laser rifle should be like the laser rifle. and it is. so i hope we're good there.
I don't speak up about any class that i dont ever use. that is, i mainly speak on minjas, but occasionally chime in on every class, because i play every class. pretty sure breakin is a heavy btw.
----------------------------------------------- Moving on...---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So here are my answers
1. Do you think a change in map design would change how often widespread certain game situations (for example 1000s of heavy HMGs with logis stacking up on objectives) occur? Yes/No. If yes, how much?
Not necessarily. Map design isnt the issue here as much as you think. all primary objectives are accessible from range or otherwise have a chokepoint leading to them that can be guarded. no map requires sentinels to be CQC
2. Do you think that weakening the current HMG in CQC will actually kick heavies out of CQC? Yes/No. If yes, what will they do instead?
No, of course not. it will bring AR+NK sentinels to prominence unless a close range heavy weapon is introduced to fill its gap
3. Do you think CCP doesn't want heavies in CQC? Yes/No/Other. What is your reasoning for believing this?
Other. I think CCP wants all races and all classes to be viable in a variety of situations to allow for customization of classes, and we need in-game flexibility to help support this goal
4. Do you think that future heavy weapons should also not perform in CQC? Yes/No If either, Why?
yes/no. a Plasma heavy weapon whould perform well in CQC, a heavy Firearm(HMG) should perform well at short range, a heavy Laser should perform well at mid range, and a heavy railgun should perform well at long range. this should be painfully obvious due to the way the game is structured
Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
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Raffael-Puma Austria
Storm.Fighters
E.B.O.L.A.
4
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Posted - 2015.03.08 01:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Is this a place to write about nonsense? If yes:
The gallente sentinel needs 650 not 525 hp amorr and 500 shield ,3 high slots 4 low, more resistance from projectile damage, because amarr havy have 0,5% more damage against gal. Sentinel as the gal. Can do him and 205 eHP more!
5% more cpu/pg to fit all in PRO suite with PRO will be fine!
Also all medium and havy suites need a 90% resistance against nova-knives and 95% at remote explosives!
I hate all Updates after Uprising 1.7!
All Havy's are Underpowered! They need more Range and min. 3000HP!
Want 20.5 dmg.
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Stormblade Green
KnightKiller's inc.
38
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Posted - 2015.03.08 01:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Give it up Greive.... Heavies are CQC and untill people realize this people will call them OP.....
One might say... I'm very skilled... yet I'm his apprentice... So what does that say about my mentor?
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
Lokun Listamenn
185
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Posted - 2015.03.08 01:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Stormblade Green wrote:Give it up Greiv.... Heavies are CQC and untill people realize this people will call them OP..... keep nerfing heavy class dropsuit CCP. Your beloved community is dwindling.
Beware the nerfvalanche CCP.
God i can't believe I've been reduced to chanting a doomsday warning. You guys are killing me
Thank you for your concern storm, but heavies need more weapons like pilots need more vehicles.
The more gets taken out of this game or scrapped, the worse it will get.
I really do love eve, and if this ship is sinking, I'll go down with it.
Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
Lokun Listamenn
185
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Posted - 2015.03.08 01:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Raffael-Puma Austria wrote:Is this a place to write about nonsense? If yes:
The gallente sentinel needs 650 not 525 hp amorr and 500 shield ,3 high slots 4 low, more resistance from projectile damage, because amarr havy have 0,5% more damage against gal. Sentinel as the gal. Can do him and 205 eHP more!
5% more cpu/pg to fit all in PRO suite with PRO will be fine!
Also all medium and havy suites need a 90% resistance against nova-knives and 95% at remote explosives!
No this is a place for constructive discussion about the proposed changes to heavies.
Something like making heavies and mediums immune to damage by weapons designed to kill enemies in one strike is not constructive.
Please dont cry nerf in my thread. I WILL report you for trolling, and I don't usually report anyone but myself.
Beware the nerfvalanche. If you shout nerf, you will summon the nerfvalanche.
It will destroy everything unless it is stopped.
Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1826
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Posted - 2015.03.08 02:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Snake Sellors wrote:Having been on dust for a long time now, meaning i have seen many of the issues raised by hmgs and there multiple re-balances, which never seem to quite work out.
i think in all honestly they should really be taken out of cqc and become a heavy support role, a hmg should completely outclass all light weapons in its range, because its a heavy weapon.
so what should they do as a heavy support..
well they should either:
mow down infantry in droves,
destroy vehicles easily,
be an area denial troop.
if a light infantry comes up against a heavy with a heavy weapon without at least another player to help him it should be a forgone conclusion. a heavy with a light weapon should never be competition for a heavy with a heavy weapon, unless it's equipped for av.
as these wont ever work like this in dust with the things the way they are the hmgs won't ever be balanced really.
sad but true because they dont compare well to light weapons and they are getting yet another nerf..
Very insightful and true .
CCP will just not start to place boundaries on this game and it's mechanics , meaning ... someone like yourself ( which I agree as with you ) can see that and the importance of the distinction and the role that's created and how that applies to the dynamic of the game , but they again make unnecessary changes because they just don't want to stand up for the boundaries of their own game .
They would rather " dummy down " the game for the " sake " of fairness but who is that " fair " to .?. why should I have my favorite game made less to help make it easier for someone else who obviously isn't trying to appreciate the subtle distinctions that make this game what it is to a lot of others who like to think on their feet , problem solve and who are looking for something with in-depth features that's different from the basic concepts that seem to control the market ?
Time and time again taking steps backwards , from the vehicle ( All they had to do was fix the AV numbers , they had the tree , the mechanics , the turrets , the mods , the vehicles and so onre-work to the handling of bandwidth , to now changes to AV weapons profile ... you people want to kill heavies , make scanners useless , desire to handicap HAV's to the point where their solo'd on a regular , like that should be excepted within the confines of a game as dynamic as this ..?., make ADS's invincible to attacks from vehicles as well as AV infantry , turn the HMG into the weakest weapon in the game while NK's and the SG can OKH on a regular and yes given their range , those two with the CR are the most powerful weapons in-game ... turn RE's into grenades while firing while cloaked , make scout suits by far the most versatile suit with the greatest OKH potential while being the least detected with the greatest sight able to match HP values of a commando , strip swarms of their value , keep the logi suit handicapped in it's survivability while being the biggest target on the map ... they have the HP's of a scout but have the movements of a commando / heavy , I can go down the line .
These are the real problems while people keep trying to make this game BF / COD / HALO / Whatever Vanilla ... but people complain about heavies while their killed by scouts and CR's / RE's / SG's / NK's / PC's / FG's / RR's / Grenades / BP's / FP's ... 
Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
733
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Posted - 2015.03.09 02:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alright. Back at work. Have a free hour.
Grieve -- wow.
1: I never compared Lasers to HMGs mechanic wise. I meant HMG similar to the laser as an area denial role -- which lately has been gaining momentum. Basically the laser's job but with different mechanics. And I am talking about the basic concept of the HMG. The assault HMG was variant designed in mind with said longer range in mind (and it is just now getting looked at for proper tweaks.) That being said -- there used to be long range HMGs. That didn't work out too well....
2: I didnt say heavies stayed in CQC because of lack of weapons. I said lack of heavy weapons keeps them from having a solid offensive option outside of CQC of the heavy variety. Heavies also have their weaknesses mitigated by CQC significantly. AND there is CQC near virtually all points meaning a heavies can (and do) camp it. Literally a heavy on every point (especially in PC where people do things like defend according to Field Commander oders.)
3: I never said that heavies were the least flexible suit. I said that HMG using heavies were inflexible as they are only good at close range. Coupled with lack of speed means they can't control range. Meaning that outside of CQC an HMG heavy is a sitting duck as anyone and everyone can move outside of said heavy's range easily (assuming no LAVs involved.)
4: I never said that all the points couldn't be fired into from range. Virtually all hack points can be fired into from range. But at all of these points there is a lot of cover for a heavy to hide. So you can't range the heavy to death. Hence they stay there. If some points had significantly less cover, such that it had to be defended by a player with a long range gun (otherwise they would be killed from suppressive fire) then there would be fewer heavies.
Greiv Rabbah wrote:
Edit: yes a heavy is king of cqc, and that is a problem. A sneaky ninja will get torn up by an invincible sentinel at close range and thats an issue that breaks the minjas role as a melee focused assassin
Your bias is showing.
You believe that the HMG should be the close - medium heavy weapon? That's fine. Fits Minmatar better anyway. You want a gal weapon that performs the HMG's function in CQC? That's fine. Fits Gal better anyway.
But don't forget this -- it's your opinion on how it should work. Mechanically speaking -- assuming it was made your way (and assuming I understand your opinion) -- nothing would change. Sentinels would still be just as effective at killing in CQC as always. They would cluster in CQC just as much now and sneaky Minjas would have just as much trouble. People would complain about heavies just as much -- and since points have so much cover heavies would get spammed just as much.
Only now heavies could jog to the nearest depot and grab a range weapon and be effective outside of 35 meters.
Which, by the way you post, seems like you have a problem with and don't at the same time. Too much of your rhetoric at times seems to support opposite combat and role methodologies. I mean -- by and large I agree with your opinion on how heavies should work. But too much ambiguousness confuses me. You say heavies should require flanking, teamwork, or stealth to kill. Then claim that CQC kingness is bad. Clarifications help.
Understand -- I just want the heavy spam to stop. And the major problem I have seen with heavies is that (and I am repeating myself as opposed to quoting) for the vast majority of objective points -- heavies have plenty of cover connected to the point to hide from long range weaponry. They can stay in CQC areas and remain relevant to the objective. And they will continue to do so even if they all switch to light weapons. If at least half the objectives have only sparse cover -- where assaults can defend but heavies cant -- then there will be far fewer heavies.
I appreciate your desire to add depth and complexity to heavy weapons. I share said desire. But I am currently focused on trying to help ideacraft (like everyone else on the forums) some balance with what we have. As soon as more heavy weapons are added this whole thing will start again -- so having a balanced baseline going into new weapon addition would help prevent super buff/nerfs. Cause I am so tired of the buff/nerf cycle.
Your answers to my 4 questions have been noted. Thank you. |
Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
Lokun Listamenn
195
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Posted - 2015.03.09 21:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
imp
1. lasers arent the only area denial weapon, in fact i often find myself in suppression from ARs which is good bc its a close range rifle and i'm a low hp melee role.
2: you said heavies are inflexible, which is silly when they can use literally every weapon in the game. I agree there needs to be more heavy weapons. i missed the point here... anyway, CQC around an objective is important for map design as the minja bonuses force us to hover around objectives being target practice for heavies
3: you actually were pretty vague on that if i recall, calling heavies inflexible but i've been out of it for days so i cant recall anything clearly by now. however, no a minja certainly cant move out of a heavy's range easily, only out of a minjas range. the optimal solution is for armor to reduce turn speed so that minja can move around their range, because thats only feasible if they were already in melee range when spotted(since one shot from the cone of death kills a minja. the next 3 that hit anyway just terminate the clone and send the body flying, which makes me sad but makes me lol when it happens all at the same time). a minja is by definition a melee focused role. they SHOULD be king of cqc assuming they are sneaky, which lately isnt much of an option for minja. a minjas range is at the narrowest point of the cone of death, but heavies turn quicker than you can dance so fighting a heavy is basically assured death.
4: when they can get out of line of sight, use splash. a laser rifle is a mid-long range suppression weapon, and the mass driver is a hybrid AV/area denial weapon for short-mid range. what you arent noticing there is your laser rifle is actually doing its job by pushing the heavy behind cover. the next step is to have a min assault move in to use their mass driver if you're unable to finish the heavy. or better yet, you should squad up with a minja. minja cant kill heavies right now unless theyre flanking, which means to score a kill i need a distraction. a distraction like you pushing them back into me with a beam thats effective at exactly the range a hmg is useless at is great bc they see the light and cant take their eyes off it. the sizzling sound masks my charging knives. as they back into cover away from you, they step back into my knife. and that is a counter to heavies falling back into CQC. like i said the other day or whenever it was, TACTICS man. its needed for this game.
no, not bias... LORE. minja, unless spotted, are king of CQC by definition. given that stabbing a heavy will make them laugh, turn around, tell you that tickled, and spray you with hmg fire all while you cant put out enough dps to stop them, there is a problem there. i said it before and ill say it again. taking out a sentinel (ANY sentinel) should require flanking or a very sneaky minja(or other assassin, idc)
my opinions i try to keep based in the rules of the game as defined by CCP. and youre forgetting something: variety is the spice of life. almost nobody in this game is running what they WANT to, just what CCP ALLOWS them to have. various things are nerfed, broken, or removed, when they should be added, fixed, and balanced. the game languishes in development hell because so much is put into tweaking half a game to limp along when they should hammer out some workable numbers, stick it in, and start adding things that conform relatively well, fixing big issues while expanding the inventory and skill tree until we have a relatively stable game, at which point everything can be given a big fat balancing pass and not have to do the same job(tweaking an hmg or some such) 5 times plus again everytime anything changes.
my problem there is that the anti-heavy role cannot use stealth and knives to kill a sentinel before theyre well able to kill the minja, and a sentinel that survives is a sentinal at full health 3 seconds later (logilove)
about the word sentinel, i was kind of surprised to find out a strong percentage of ppl in dust actually have no idea what it means aside from that theyre in X-men(#SeemsPeopleDontKnowWhatThatMeans ). they should kick ass in CQC. as stated they should knock down pretty much anything they see. that shouldnt make minjas useless as minjas rely on stealth and high alpha damage to kill before the enemy can target them. thats not particularly feasible with the current setup
Understand -- I just want the game to be balanced and flourish so it has the opportunity to grow into what the nerfvalanche wil not allow it to right now. heavies clumping up on objectives will continue to be an issue until minja can effectively do our job, and i'm sorry but thats the real problem. they trounce us at CQC and we are their only threat so why would they leave CQC? i dont care if heavies are popular, and if you play an assault, the popularity contest argument is null and void. its the most commonly used class right now and as long as its not particularly out of balance, i dont care. more effective minjas would make sentinels more afraid to hover on a letter, and that would make longer range sentinels more relevant, and that would push them out of CQC a bit.
i'm surprised by this last statement. tweaking everything until everyones pissed off wont end the buff/nerf cycle, it will perpetuate it and keep new content from being added. how do you not get that? if we tweak everything to death then when we finish you wont be ABLE to add anything because it will start the whole ridiculous process over again.
edit note, bc its partly in your head. i think to myself all the time "WHY inst there COVER i cant SNEAK across an EMPTY DESERT" but then i say "oh right, because i'm in a field and laser rifles will kill me here" 
Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
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Greiv Rabbah
M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command
Lokun Listamenn
195
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Posted - 2015.03.09 21:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
I honestly have no problem with a heavy running to a depot and swapping weapons. they are unable to use that weapon while heading to the depot, which enforces the EVE mechanic that you can swap turrets on your ship, but it takes time to do so, during which you're relatively defenseless.
also, I should support varying methodologies and roles.
Its not like i want my class or my weapon or my this or that to be overpowered, i want the game to be balanced and good so that it can continue to be developed.
theres a certain point where if you keep painting the same spot on a wall over and over again, you're just making a mess.
Even if you make that spot look perfect, as soon as you start painting the rest of the wall it will be drastically uneven.
better to paint the whole wall, let it dry, and then put another layer on.
after a few layers, if any uneven spots you noticed are still there, touch them up then and put on another layer to smooth it all out if needed.
make sense?
designing a game should be a bit like that
I also could make a cooking reference if you're not much for painting, but at this point i'd have to say the meal is only half cooked, but whats been cooked at all is so burnt it doesnt look like food anymore.
Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
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