DUST Search - Heavy rebalancing discussion

Imp Smash wrote:

Greiv Rabbah wrote:

We dont talk about light heavies because you said it. We talk about it because it used to be a real thing and we recall it.

I'm not saying you guys do. I am well aware that everyone that spends any time on Dust has seen L.Weapon Heavies and I am willing to bet ISK that the majority of people are annoyed by it. I am saying 'parroting me' because while I maybe was not the first to complain about heavies using light weapons -- I was one of the first (more so than the other guys who have been in this argument at the very least) to bring it up as a counterpoint in relation to the affects of making HMGs useless in CQC. (Not sure who was the absolute first. I said it early and I said it loud, and have been quoted by Breakin [he quotes me very often actually] as well as a few others.

Regardless, I don't care who said it first. I don't care if you are parroting me or if I am parroting you. I only care about the fact that it is true. Let's just be clear on this.

Also while we are on the subject about misunderstandings:

Greiv Rabbah wrote:

You directly addressed what threw me off before about breakin's statement(when I was half asleep) but here you are saying don't say it should be his way bc it should be your way.

I don't think it should necessarily be my way either.

I am saying that it is the current way because CCP designed it that way. I am saying that because heavies can use light weapons and have more HP than mediums they will ALWAYS be in CQC. I am saying that as long as reptools are as good as they are they will always be largely represented by Gal/Amarr. I am saying that I will go with how CCP designs it. If they change HMGS to be like laser rifles...fine. If they keep heavies CQC and put 100% of the objectives outside in the middle of a grassy field...fine. If the Sentinel cannot use the HMG like a laser as I suspect I will discuss and offer my best thoughts on how to help fix that.

I play Dust 514. Unlike many others -- I always keep in mind that I do not own, design, or should be able to alter the game to any vision that I might have. I simply follow what I can guess CCP is trying to do and offer my best advice because I like the game. My opinion on how Dust 'should work' is irrelevant and always has been. Do a search for my name -- you will notice in my posts that I focus on practicality of what they are doing. Not how I think it should work.

Example: If heavies were mobile and able to be good area denial, I would have little problem with Breakin's proposal on the HMG being like a laser. Still some problem as my Assault RUNS laser and that would infringe on my already insanely tiny role. And since I already run that role (better than a sent could) I know for a fact how limited and rare it is as far as affecting the main tide of battle. You guys haven't claimed to run that role so you don't have any experience with it as far as I know.

----------------------------------------------- 2 post Rant Over ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I would like a direct answer. All the arguing, debate, rationalization aside... I have 4 simple questions I would like to build a constructive discussion on. Actually it was 3 questions and 2 assertions but I had a brain fart and my thoughts got jumbled. This is what survived the mental chaos.

1. Do you think a change in map design would change how often widespread certain game situations (for example 1000s of heavy HMGs with logis stacking up on objectives) occur? Yes/No. If yes, how much?
2. Do you think that weakening the current HMG in CQC will actually kick heavies out of CQC? Yes/No. If yes, what will they do instead?
3. Do you think CCP doesn't want heavies in CQC? Yes/No/Other. What is your reasoning for believing this?
4. Do you think that future heavy weapons should also not perform in CQC? Yes/No If either, Why?

Lets answer those in as few sentences as possible in another thread. Then go from there because the argument took up way too much of this thread which is not just about heavies and we need to simplify it and move it to an appropriate thread.

I wanted to hear more discussion on uplinks and backpeddle speed....

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Imp Smash wrote:

Scouts will be making a comeback Lol

AHAHAHA - IS FUNNY BECAUSE HE SAYS SCOUTS WILL BE MAKING A COMEBACK, IMPLYING THAT THEY EVER LEFT - AHAHAHA

Fair enough Lol

. Let me rephrase. The Forums flaming and Anti-Scout posts will be making a comeback. Twisted


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Greiv Rabbah M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command Lokun Listamenn 172	Posted - 2015.03.07 19:07:00 - [1] - Quote Okay Imp, heres your thread: I'll get you a reply shortly Imp Smash wrote: Greiv Rabbah wrote: We dont talk about light heavies because you said it. We talk about it because it used to be a real thing and we recall it. I'm not saying you guys do. I am well aware that everyone that spends any time on Dust has seen L.Weapon Heavies and I am willing to bet ISK that the majority of people are annoyed by it. I am saying 'parroting me' because while I maybe was not the first to complain about heavies using light weapons -- I was one of the first (more so than the other guys who have been in this argument at the very least) to bring it up as a counterpoint in relation to the affects of making HMGs useless in CQC. (Not sure who was the absolute first. I said it early and I said it loud, and have been quoted by Breakin [he quotes me very often actually] as well as a few others. Regardless, I don't care who said it first. I don't care if you are parroting me or if I am parroting you. I only care about the fact that it is true. Let's just be clear on this. Also while we are on the subject about misunderstandings: Greiv Rabbah wrote: You directly addressed what threw me off before about breakin's statement(when I was half asleep) but here you are saying don't say it should be his way bc it should be your way. I don't think it should necessarily be my way either. I am saying that it is the current way because CCP designed it that way. I am saying that because heavies can use light weapons and have more HP than mediums they will ALWAYS be in CQC. I am saying that as long as reptools are as good as they are they will always be largely represented by Gal/Amarr. I am saying that I will go with how CCP designs it. If they change HMGS to be like laser rifles...fine. If they keep heavies CQC and put 100% of the objectives outside in the middle of a grassy field...fine. If the Sentinel cannot use the HMG like a laser as I suspect I will discuss and offer my best thoughts on how to help fix that. I play Dust 514. Unlike many others -- I always keep in mind that I do not own, design, or should be able to alter the game to any vision that I might have. I simply follow what I can guess CCP is trying to do and offer my best advice because I like the game. My opinion on how Dust 'should work' is irrelevant and always has been. Do a search for my name -- you will notice in my posts that I focus on practicality of what they are doing. Not how I think it should work. Example: If heavies were mobile and able to be good area denial, I would have little problem with Breakin's proposal on the HMG being like a laser. Still some problem as my Assault RUNS laser and that would infringe on my already insanely tiny role. And since I already run that role (better than a sent could) I know for a fact how limited and rare it is as far as affecting the main tide of battle. You guys haven't claimed to run that role so you don't have any experience with it as far as I know. ----------------------------------------------- 2 post Rant Over --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I would like a direct answer. All the arguing, debate, rationalization aside... I have 4 simple questions I would like to build a constructive discussion on. Actually it was 3 questions and 2 assertions but I had a brain fart and my thoughts got jumbled. This is what survived the mental chaos. 1. Do you think a change in map design would change how often widespread certain game situations (for example 1000s of heavy HMGs with logis stacking up on objectives) occur? Yes/No. If yes, how much? 2. Do you think that weakening the current HMG in CQC will actually kick heavies out of CQC? Yes/No. If yes, what will they do instead? 3. Do you think CCP doesn't want heavies in CQC? Yes/No/Other. What is your reasoning for believing this? 4. Do you think that future heavy weapons should also not perform in CQC? Yes/No If either, Why? Lets answer those in as few sentences as possible in another thread. Then go from there because the argument took up way too much of this thread which is not just about heavies and we need to simplify it and move it to an appropriate thread. I wanted to hear more discussion on uplinks and backpeddle speed.... Aeon Amadi wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Scouts will be making a comeback AHAHAHA - IS FUNNY BECAUSE HE SAYS SCOUTS WILL BE MAKING A COMEBACK, IMPLYING THAT THEY EVER LEFT - AHAHAHA Fair enough . Let me rephrase. The Forums flaming and Anti-Scout posts will be making a comeback. Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
Greiv Rabbah M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command Lokun Listamenn 173	Posted - 2015.03.07 20:19:00 - [2] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: A lot!!! "I am saying that it is the current way because CCP designed it that way. I am saying that because heavies can use light weapons and have more HP than mediums they will ALWAYS be in CQC. I am saying that as long as reptools are as good as they are they will always be largely represented by Gal/Amarr. I am saying that I will go with how CCP designs it. If they change HMGS to be like laser rifles...fine. If they keep heavies CQC and put 100% of the objectives outside in the middle of a grassy field...fine. If the Sentinel cannot use the HMG like a laser as I suspect I will discuss and offer my best thoughts on how to help fix that." i'm reading here that we need shield transporters to make heavies more balanced and that we need heavy weapon parity to bring flexibility to the different ranges. i'm also noting that you dont seem aware that every letter on every map is accessible from range and any sniper will tell you so. i dont think hmgs should be like laser rifles i think hmgs should be longer range and flamethrowers should exist in game because a heavy weapon version of the combat rifle should not be outdistanced by a light weapon plasma rifle. a heavy plasma weapon should fill the range slot that HMGs are in. i'll be a little pushy on this because parity is something the game needs. "Example: If heavies were mobile and able to be good area denial, I would have little problem with Breakin's proposal on the HMG being like a laser. Still some problem as my Assault RUNS laser and that would infringe on my already insanely tiny role. And since I already run that role (better than a sent could) I know for a fact how limited and rare it is as far as affecting the main tide of battle. You guys haven't claimed to run that role so you don't have any experience with it as far as I know." I'm pretty sure nobody said that the HMG should be like a laser rifle... if so, they were wrong. the laser rifle should be like the laser rifle. and it is. so i hope we're good there. I don't speak up about any class that i dont ever use. that is, i mainly speak on minjas, but occasionally chime in on every class, because i play every class. pretty sure breakin is a heavy btw. ----------------------------------------------- Moving on...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So here are my answers 1. Do you think a change in map design would change how often widespread certain game situations (for example 1000s of heavy HMGs with logis stacking up on objectives) occur? Yes/No. If yes, how much? Not necessarily. Map design isnt the issue here as much as you think. all primary objectives are accessible from range or otherwise have a chokepoint leading to them that can be guarded. no map requires sentinels to be CQC 2. Do you think that weakening the current HMG in CQC will actually kick heavies out of CQC? Yes/No. If yes, what will they do instead? No, of course not. it will bring AR+NK sentinels to prominence unless a close range heavy weapon is introduced to fill its gap 3. Do you think CCP doesn't want heavies in CQC? Yes/No/Other. What is your reasoning for believing this? Other. I think CCP wants all races and all classes to be viable in a variety of situations to allow for customization of classes, and we need in-game flexibility to help support this goal 4. Do you think that future heavy weapons should also not perform in CQC? Yes/No If either, Why? yes/no. a Plasma heavy weapon whould perform well in CQC, a heavy Firearm(HMG) should perform well at short range, a heavy Laser should perform well at mid range, and a heavy railgun should perform well at long range. this should be painfully obvious due to the way the game is structured Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
Greiv Rabbah M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command Lokun Listamenn 185	Posted - 2015.03.08 01:41:00 - [3] - Quote Stormblade Green wrote: Give it up Greiv.... Heavies are CQC and untill people realize this people will call them OP..... keep nerfing heavy class dropsuit CCP. Your beloved community is dwindling. Beware the nerfvalanche CCP. God i can't believe I've been reduced to chanting a doomsday warning. You guys are killing me Thank you for your concern storm, but heavies need more weapons like pilots need more vehicles. The more gets taken out of this game or scrapped, the worse it will get. I really do love eve, and if this ship is sinking, I'll go down with it. Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
Greiv Rabbah M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command Lokun Listamenn 185	Posted - 2015.03.08 01:50:00 - [4] - Quote Raffael-Puma Austria wrote: Is this a place to write about nonsense? If yes: The gallente sentinel needs 650 not 525 hp amorr and 500 shield ,3 high slots 4 low, more resistance from projectile damage, because amarr havy have 0,5% more damage against gal. Sentinel as the gal. Can do him and 205 eHP more! 5% more cpu/pg to fit all in PRO suite with PRO will be fine! Also all medium and havy suites need a 90% resistance against nova-knives and 95% at remote explosives! No this is a place for constructive discussion about the proposed changes to heavies. Something like making heavies and mediums immune to damage by weapons designed to kill enemies in one strike is not constructive. Please dont cry nerf in my thread. I WILL report you for trolling, and I don't usually report anyone but myself. Beware the nerfvalanche. If you shout nerf, you will summon the nerfvalanche. It will destroy everything unless it is stopped. Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
Greiv Rabbah M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command Lokun Listamenn 195	Posted - 2015.03.09 21:49:00 - [5] - Quote imp 1. lasers arent the only area denial weapon, in fact i often find myself in suppression from ARs which is good bc its a close range rifle and i'm a low hp melee role. 2: you said heavies are inflexible, which is silly when they can use literally every weapon in the game. I agree there needs to be more heavy weapons. i missed the point here... anyway, CQC around an objective is important for map design as the minja bonuses force us to hover around objectives being target practice for heavies 3: you actually were pretty vague on that if i recall, calling heavies inflexible but i've been out of it for days so i cant recall anything clearly by now. however, no a minja certainly cant move out of a heavy's range easily, only out of a minjas range. the optimal solution is for armor to reduce turn speed so that minja can move around their range, because thats only feasible if they were already in melee range when spotted(since one shot from the cone of death kills a minja. the next 3 that hit anyway just terminate the clone and send the body flying, which makes me sad but makes me lol when it happens all at the same time). a minja is by definition a melee focused role. they SHOULD be king of cqc assuming they are sneaky, which lately isnt much of an option for minja. a minjas range is at the narrowest point of the cone of death, but heavies turn quicker than you can dance so fighting a heavy is basically assured death. 4: when they can get out of line of sight, use splash. a laser rifle is a mid-long range suppression weapon, and the mass driver is a hybrid AV/area denial weapon for short-mid range. what you arent noticing there is your laser rifle is actually doing its job by pushing the heavy behind cover. the next step is to have a min assault move in to use their mass driver if you're unable to finish the heavy. or better yet, you should squad up with a minja. minja cant kill heavies right now unless theyre flanking, which means to score a kill i need a distraction. a distraction like you pushing them back into me with a beam thats effective at exactly the range a hmg is useless at is great bc they see the light and cant take their eyes off it. the sizzling sound masks my charging knives. as they back into cover away from you, they step back into my knife. and that is a counter to heavies falling back into CQC. like i said the other day or whenever it was, TACTICS man. its needed for this game. no, not bias... LORE. minja, unless spotted, are king of CQC by definition. given that stabbing a heavy will make them laugh, turn around, tell you that tickled, and spray you with hmg fire all while you cant put out enough dps to stop them, there is a problem there. i said it before and ill say it again. taking out a sentinel (ANY sentinel) should require flanking or a very sneaky minja(or other assassin, idc) my opinions i try to keep based in the rules of the game as defined by CCP. and youre forgetting something: variety is the spice of life. almost nobody in this game is running what they WANT to, just what CCP ALLOWS them to have. various things are nerfed, broken, or removed, when they should be added, fixed, and balanced. the game languishes in development hell because so much is put into tweaking half a game to limp along when they should hammer out some workable numbers, stick it in, and start adding things that conform relatively well, fixing big issues while expanding the inventory and skill tree until we have a relatively stable game, at which point everything can be given a big fat balancing pass and not have to do the same job(tweaking an hmg or some such) 5 times plus again everytime anything changes. my problem there is that the anti-heavy role cannot use stealth and knives to kill a sentinel before theyre well able to kill the minja, and a sentinel that survives is a sentinal at full health 3 seconds later (logilove) about the word sentinel, i was kind of surprised to find out a strong percentage of ppl in dust actually have no idea what it means aside from that theyre in X-men(#SeemsPeopleDontKnowWhatThatMeans). they should kick ass in CQC. as stated they should knock down pretty much anything they see. that shouldnt make minjas useless as minjas rely on stealth and high alpha damage to kill before the enemy can target them. thats not particularly feasible with the current setup Understand -- I just want the game to be balanced and flourish so it has the opportunity to grow into what the nerfvalanche wil not allow it to right now. heavies clumping up on objectives will continue to be an issue until minja can effectively do our job, and i'm sorry but thats the real problem. they trounce us at CQC and we are their only threat so why would they leave CQC? i dont care if heavies are popular, and if you play an assault, the popularity contest argument is null and void. its the most commonly used class right now and as long as its not particularly out of balance, i dont care. more effective minjas would make sentinels more afraid to hover on a letter, and that would make longer range sentinels more relevant, and that would push them out of CQC a bit. i'm surprised by this last statement. tweaking everything until everyones pissed off wont end the buff/nerf cycle, it will perpetuate it and keep new content from being added. how do you not get that? if we tweak everything to death then when we finish you wont be ABLE to add anything because it will start the whole ridiculous process over again. edit note, bc its partly in your head. i think to myself all the time "WHY inst there COVER i cant SNEAK across an EMPTY DESERT" but then i say "oh right, because i'm in a field and laser rifles will kill me here" Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
Greiv Rabbah M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command Lokun Listamenn 195	Posted - 2015.03.09 21:57:00 - [6] - Quote I honestly have no problem with a heavy running to a depot and swapping weapons. they are unable to use that weapon while heading to the depot, which enforces the EVE mechanic that you can swap turrets on your ship, but it takes time to do so, during which you're relatively defenseless. also, I should support varying methodologies and roles. Its not like i want my class or my weapon or my this or that to be overpowered, i want the game to be balanced and good so that it can continue to be developed. theres a certain point where if you keep painting the same spot on a wall over and over again, you're just making a mess. Even if you make that spot look perfect, as soon as you start painting the rest of the wall it will be drastically uneven. better to paint the whole wall, let it dry, and then put another layer on. after a few layers, if any uneven spots you noticed are still there, touch them up then and put on another layer to smooth it all out if needed. make sense? designing a game should be a bit like that I also could make a cooking reference if you're not much for painting, but at this point i'd have to say the meal is only half cooked, but whats been cooked at all is so burnt it doesnt look like food anymore. Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face