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One AV User should NOT equal one MAV user.

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True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17038	Posted - 2015.02.09 20:27:00 - [31] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: It has nothing to do with "hate on vehicles" or attempting to "deny an entire playstyle" and everything to do with sensible balance considerations. Gotta admit that for the most part it really shouldn't required a huge number of players to deal with vehicles...... however there are certain considerations AVers need to take into account. Vehicles still lack clearly defined roles. Vehicles do not have realistic weapons systems. Skill Tree is not great. Where are the counter measures? "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Michael Epic Bragian Order Amarr Empire 449	Posted - 2015.02.09 20:32:00 - [32] - Quote I'm going to tell you the truth in the nicest, most polite way I possibly can. Dust 514 is an infantry assault game...the meat of this game is close quarter combat one on one. Its hacking, running and defending that goes down. Dropships are ridiculous because they sit on the objectives (in domination) and just rain down kills. There is no risk involved in that UNLESS someone pulls out a proto swarm launcher loaded down with damage mods which is rare that they can or will pull one out without being nova knifed, shotgunned or AR'd in the nuts! The same with tanks...you all park your tanks in red lines and shoot. You snipe people. You take no risk at all. You just sit back, kick back and shoot your cannon off. So me? I run both Gal Logi gk.0 and Min Assault mk.0 fittings to vehicle hunt! I see you in the redline? I'll sneak up on you with remote explosives. I wait for a second to get the timing you are shooting your cannon off....you shoot, I drop RE...a lot of times, I can drop them on you and you have no idea due to the sound of you shooting your tank's weapon....I get at least 4 on you, but I try for 6 or all 10 just in case you're beefy....but then I hit you with the AV grenade and as soon as it goes off, you takers FREAK THE EFF OUT!!I But as soon as you start to move I'll trigger the 4 re's (boundless) first and then hope they annihilate you but if not I'll try to switch as fast as I can to F/45's or plain 'ol RE's and try to get you. KABOOM! You're dead. I get you more than you get me....period. But if I can't get you...because sometimes you get me or sometimes you're just too slick for my tricks to work...I'll hit you with the swarm launcher and try to finish you off before you kill me! I'm a tank hunter..tell your friends. But back to the topic at hand...you vehicle guys whine and moan and b!tch and p!ss and cry and boo hoo and the whambulance's sirens are blazing like we're all at the discotech because you HIDE behind your tanks and dropships. You don't transport troops, you rain down artillery on folks noggins and then think you're a beast at 66/0 at the end of the match because you blew up all the CRU's, flux'd anywhere you saw uplinks and camped the only spawn point left. So yeah...increase AV! You should have the same danger from us with you driving your vehicles as we have from you because you're driving your vehicles! I want to sneeze on your tanky whip and it blow up son!
Grimmiers 788	Posted - 2015.02.09 21:44:00 - [33] - Quote Which is why repair rates and av damage should be normalized. If a vehicle has to retreat It would be out of commission for a long period of time unless it has a logi, logistic vehicle repairing it. Supply depots should not repair vehicles after vehicle repair logistics gets redone. So even if a av player dies to a vehicle his damage should stick around much longer.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17043	Posted - 2015.02.09 21:58:00 - [34] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: you rain down artillery on folks noggins and then think you're a beast at 66/0 at the end of the match because you blew up all the CRU's, flux'd anywhere you saw uplinks and camped the only spawn point left. That's kind of the point. Tanks fire large shells. Those shells explode. Those shells travel great distances. Tanks have lots of guns all over them. Why they don't in Dust is a ******* mystery to me. As for on field assets why not destroy them. Infantry never protect them or use them worth a damn. See a Rail Turret? "Oh by maybe I should hack that....but I won't protect that asset..... oh a Supply Depot good thing I'm just going to run off an abandon that..." There is a reason I used to destroy such installations. They threaten my capacity to function effectively on field and help you guys not get overrun by enemy tanks. You don't want those turrets or Depot's going up in smoke then protect them. Don't let the other team take them. As for camping? Bro I'm done with that bullshit. Call it camping and scrubby if you will I'll call it taking the intelligent and profitable approach to denying the enemy a spawn point. Why give them the chance to redeploy and come at you from another angle with clones we could have destroyed? "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1521	Posted - 2015.02.09 22:24:00 - [35] - Quote When I fly dropships it is always rails, not swarms, that bring me down. I wouldn't mind seeing a liitle more HP for standard dropships. Most pilot complaints though come from their expectation that they should not be the equivalent of any other single player though. They believe they should be worth 2 or 3. Because, that's why.
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2480	Posted - 2015.02.09 23:33:00 - [36] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: It has nothing to do with "hate on vehicles" or attempting to "deny an entire playstyle" and everything to do with sensible balance considerations. Gotta admit that for the most part it really shouldn't required a huge number of players to deal with vehicles...... however there are certain considerations AVers need to take into account. Vehicles still lack clearly defined roles. Vehicles do not have realistic weapons systems. Skill Tree is not great. Where are the counter measures? True, when have you and I ever disagreed on any of these points? We haven't, I agree with all four of your points. However, I still cannot believe that there are people who just want to act like everything is perfectly fine with such a ridiculous assertion as the one found in the OP. It gets totally overlooked and anyone who tries to put it into perspective gets demonized. It is the main reason that vehicles are ****. True Adamance wrote:** As for camping? Bro I'm done with that bullshit. Call it camping and scrubby if you will I'll call it taking the intelligent and profitable approach to denying the enemy a spawn point. Why give them the chance to redeploy and come at you from another angle with clones we could have destroyed? +1 We the pc players make up a huge majority of active players. --Roman837 ^^ROFLMAO OMG I need to catch my breath now..
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17056	Posted - 2015.02.09 23:40:00 - [37] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: However, I still cannot believe that there are people who just want to act like everything is perfectly fine with such a ridiculous assertion as the one found in the OP. It gets totally overlooked and anyone who tries to put it into perspective gets demonized. +1[/quote] It's true.... and kind of tricky. One of the possible issue with swarm launcher is multi round magazines...... usually in other games lock on rockets fire once then are reloaded rather than several times quickly. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 833	Posted - 2015.02.09 23:45:00 - [38] - Quote Atiim wrote: AV rig costs also costs ~20mil SP Minmatar logi (among many infantry roles) and vehcle operator. I assuure you it does not take 20mil SP to get a adv min commando proto swarms, level 3 proficiency as well as a caldari heavy with level 4 forge gun and lai dai grenades. I got 43 mil SP, I've got min logi 5, and all equipment 5, gal logi 3, amaar logi 3, caldari logi 3, cal heavy 3, amar heavy 3 minmatar heavy 3, amarr comando 3 minmatar commando 3 amarr assault 3, minmatar assault 3, gall assault 3, caldari assault 3, minmatar scout 3, gallente scout 3, incubus level 3, python level 1, vehicle hp modules and reps proto, pg and CPU proto, all large turret level 3, all light weapons proto except the rail rifle 3, PLC, and lazer rifle, prof 4 combat rifles, prof 3 HMG , prof 2 AR, prof 3 scramblers, all side arms to level three except the bolt pistol, proto nades and explosives level 3 All my cores are at either level 4 or proto. According to your estimates, just under half of this SP is required for an AV suit. This i find very difficult to believe. Dont worry the door swings both ways, when people give astronmical SP figures for vehicles i doubt them too. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Foxhound Elite Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 710	Posted - 2015.02.10 14:41:00 - [39] - Quote I still am amazed about how blinded most of you are... wow. I mean, am I the only one playing this game as a pilot? Can anyone else not see how easy it is to shoot down a dropship? Why do swarms do so much damage versus shields anyway? I've read all your posts and I know my original post may seem a bit extreme in places, but as one user said, please give us ADV and PRO hulls so there would be a HP/ CPU / PG increase all across the board. This would give us more survivability, because as it stands, whoever doubts that dropships are 'fine' and have enough HP, is clearly delusional and perfectly happy with their swarms = free WP. They need to stop posting. Increasing dropship HP would be the easiest tweak CCP could do to balance things, at least double the HP which would allow for no more instances of one swarmer soloi'ng a ship. I've got probably the most experience in this game flying, since closed beta, i've been through it all. I know how to shoot infantry. I've lost more ships however, trying to 1v1 a swarmer than successful kills. Bottom line is, that should not be the case. Teamwork, people. Kill me with your squad, fair enough. I kill your ground troops to support my squad. My squad kills your AV guys to support me. Python pilot, troop-transport specialist and an all-round ballbag.
Jason Pearson Legio DXIV 4379	Posted - 2015.02.10 14:47:00 - [40] - Quote Deal with it baddie.

Foxhound Elite Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 710	Posted - 2015.02.10 14:49:00 - [41] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Deal with it baddie. get off my post you welsh **** Python pilot, troop-transport specialist and an all-round ballbag.
Izlare Lenix Pub Stars 1246	Posted - 2015.02.10 14:55:00 - [42] - Quote In most games and in real life there are plenty of ways a single player can kill a vehicle. (In the real world simply disabling a vehicle is often good enough. An immobile vehicle is not much good and damaging an aircraft can often cause it to crash or flee the combat zone for repairs.) But it is very hard for a single person with swarms to kill a high sp vehicle solo. Either the vehicle pilot sucks ass or more than one AVer is shooting at it. The only real truth in history is that it was bloody.
Jason Pearson Legio DXIV 4379	Posted - 2015.02.10 14:58:00 - [43] - Quote Foxhound Elite wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: Deal with it baddie. get off my post you welsh **** Getting the Irish mad: Step 1 Be me. /end Nah but for real, you should stop flying, I'm still better than you and I've only just bothered playing again after like six months. just give me your isk and uninstall, I'll show you how to smash AV bads :)
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 943	Posted - 2015.02.10 15:05:00 - [44] - Quote Having been on boths ideas of the equation I sympathise with the rendering issues - I've seen you fly and my flying skills are terrible compared to you since I haven't done it in a long while.... but the age-old fallacies that were trumpeted back in 1.7 in the eternal Vehicles vs AV debate shouldn't really make a comeback. As has been said before, ISK cost vs power is never really a good equaliser, and at this moment, while we are on limited 16 vs 16 engagements, as soon as you start saying 1 vehicle should equal 2 or more AV users, this becomes a force multiplier, and thus, automatically gives a numerical advantage to the side fielding the force multiplier - think back to the 1.7 tankbushes and tank spam... it was really game destroying. This being said, I don't have the solution either. I feel the solution will be a combination of improved rendering and larger team sizes and of course, different maps, but on different hardware, probably in a different game altogether. :)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7080	Posted - 2015.02.10 15:06:00 - [45] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Atiim wrote: AV rig costs also costs ~20mil SP Minmatar logi (among many infantry roles) and vehcle operator. I assuure you it does not take 20mil SP to get a adv min commando proto swarms, level 3 proficiency as well as a caldari heavy with level 4 forge gun and lai dai grenades. I got 43 mil SP, I've got min logi 5, and all equipment 5, gal logi 3, amaar logi 3, caldari logi 3, cal heavy 3, amar heavy 3 minmatar heavy 3, amarr comando 3 minmatar commando 3 amarr assault 3, minmatar assault 3, gall assault 3, caldari assault 3, minmatar scout 3, gallente scout 3, incubus level 3, python level 1, vehicle hp modules and reps proto, pg and CPU proto, all large turret level 3, all light weapons proto except the rail rifle 3, PLC, and lazer rifle, prof 4 combat rifles, prof 3 HMG , prof 2 AR, prof 3 scramblers, all side arms to level three except the bolt pistol, proto nades and explosives level 3 All my cores are at either level 4 or proto. According to your estimates, just under half of this SP is required for an AV suit. This i find very difficult to believe. Dont worry the door swings both ways, when people give astronmical SP figures for vehicles i doubt them too. My 25 million + SP in sentinel suits, forge gun and core/armor/shield skills says you're full of it. Over 30 million if you account for the fact I can use all for racial fatties at max level. My 25 million + SP investment is just as valid as yours. 1 player = 1 player. We won't bother discussing the many flavors of commando. I love how everyone trots out the minmando like it's the be all end all of AV. it isn't, bluntly its only decent at everything it does. I don't use swarms so don't bother trotting that tired little argument with me. I'll use them when their mechanics stop irritating me intensely. AV
Lorhak Gannarsein Nos Nothi 4265	Posted - 2015.02.10 15:28:00 - [46] - Quote What is with this garbage people keep spouting about PRO vehicles somehow making things better? So. My HAV has 11500 EHP while hardened (Gunnlogi, Cx Heavy Extender, Cx Hardener). It is a Standard HAV. A Standard Forge Gun deals 1200 damage. A Prototype Forge Gun (Kaalakiota) deals 1440 damage. This is a 20% increase. My PRO HAV now gets just under 14k EHP. Over three thousand EHP. Sounds balanced, right? So we now have a HAV (hahaha) that is practically invulnerable to infantry AV; it'll take two forges to even put a dent in this monstrosity, three or four to guarantee killing it. Now FGs are rebalanced, so that PRO can kill PRO. That PRO FG's damage has now effectively decreased from 12.5% of EHP to 10%. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it's two full shots. So it gets rebalanced back up. It now deals 1750 damage. It now strikes for 15% of that STD Gunnlogi's EHP. Which has 5000 HP unhardened. Three shots. The person who you screw when you add PRO vehicles isn't the veteran, for whom the balance won't change at all, it's the newbie, who can't access or afford the top-tier vehicles - or AV. Gods, can you imagine if we scaled them like dropsuits? Can you say 200% EHP buff? N.B. I'm reasonably confident of my numbers, but it is 2:30am, so cut me some slack. The thrust should still be clear. Well, here goes nothing!!!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7080	Posted - 2015.02.10 15:32:00 - [47] - Quote Nah. I'm recommending rattati not touch the AV alpha on any weapon to compensate for proto tanks. Rate of fire, however will allow AV to be lethal without worrying about dropships instapopping. And from what I'm seeing in the numbers, unless the SDE is COMPLETELY WRONG swarms shouldn't be touched until they can be overhauled. AV
Jack Galen Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 13	Posted - 2015.02.10 15:51:00 - [48] - Quote Only thing I'd ask for is for a tiny bit more fitting room for ADS (+50 to both PG and CPU), and a considerable buff to standard DS. I'd like to see STD dropships get some reasonable use aside from high-place-reachers, and I believe that it would be encouraged by increasing their EHP by means of a small passive resist; this means that they could survive flying around, but still suffer their mobility issues so cannot camp with a gunner and get shot at (they flip) - all without too much effort on the dev's part. Also, I fully agree with the statement that dropships get primaried instantly. This is why there is so much dropship QQ, as they can't be used without infantry seeing a large pile of potential WP flying around...a nice, squishy pile... And that should not change. On a side note, I find it irritating when I see the tankers who, when I fly towards them on the enemy redline in my AV incubus, he reverses at full speed when he sees me into safety. Those guys need to grow a pair.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2892	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:07:00 - [49] - Quote Atiim wrote: Making vehicles > AV makes Anti-Vehicle weapons useless in a competitive match, as nobody will field the 8-10 players it would require under your model to deal with them as opposed to a vehicle. We're getting tank destroyers. /end your complaints Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2892	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:11:00 - [50] - Quote TheSneakyDolphin wrote: Most of all, don't call in a vehicle if you don't want it destroyed. So then we shouldn't use vehicles at all? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

Jason Pearson Legio DXIV 4380	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:13:00 - [51] - Quote Vehicles should be situational, as with every role within the game, pretty simple. AV is the hard counter, deal with it.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7081	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:16:00 - [52] - Quote Jack Galen wrote: Only thing I'd ask for is for a tiny bit more fitting room for ADS (+50 to both PG and CPU), and a considerable buff to standard DS. I'd like to see STD dropships get some reasonable use aside from high-place-reachers, and I believe that it would be encouraged by increasing their EHP by means of a small passive resist; this means that they could survive flying around, but still suffer their mobility issues so cannot camp with a gunner and get shot at (they flip) - all without too much effort on the dev's part. Also, I fully agree with the statement that dropships get primaried instantly. This is why there is so much dropship QQ, as they can't be used without infantry seeing a large pile of potential WP flying around...a nice, squishy pile... And that should not change. On a side note, I find it irritating when I see the tankers who, when I fly towards them on the enemy redline in my AV incubus, he reverses at full speed when he sees me into safety. Those guys need to grow a pair. Standard dropships can eat four maxed forge shots before falling out of the sky. They need no buff AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2892	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:17:00 - [53] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: so... how many AV = HAV, then? Or, more pertinently, 'MAV' = HAV? Also, I want to point out that DSes are a pain in the arse to kill, probably harder than tanks, to be honest - the difference between dropships and tanks, though, is that everyone tries to kill a dropship. I've soloed a few tanks today, not managed to solo a single dropship. But I was involved in killing every single one I saw. Double complex damage mod tank with a particle cannon = dead ship. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Jason Pearson Legio DXIV 4380	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:18:00 - [54] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jack Galen wrote: Only thing I'd ask for is for a tiny bit more fitting room for ADS (+50 to both PG and CPU), and a considerable buff to standard DS. I'd like to see STD dropships get some reasonable use aside from high-place-reachers, and I believe that it would be encouraged by increasing their EHP by means of a small passive resist; this means that they could survive flying around, but still suffer their mobility issues so cannot camp with a gunner and get shot at (they flip) - all without too much effort on the dev's part. Also, I fully agree with the statement that dropships get primaried instantly. This is why there is so much dropship QQ, as they can't be used without infantry seeing a large pile of potential WP flying around...a nice, squishy pile... And that should not change. On a side note, I find it irritating when I see the tankers who, when I fly towards them on the enemy redline in my AV incubus, he reverses at full speed when he sees me into safety. Those guys need to grow a pair. Standard dropships can eat four maxed forge shots before falling out of the sky. They need no buff Hm, Armor ships tend to stay up, I got dropped after 3 shots in a Python though.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7082	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:24:00 - [55] - Quote Pythons are ADS. Rattati made standards more durable and slow. ADS are more fragile killers. AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2892	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:24:00 - [56] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: 3: As a tank, where's your infantry? We more faster, we don't always like small turrets, and we move faster. As a dropship, why are you so close? What are we supposed to do, stay at the flight cap the whole game? 4: I agree, needs to be more expensive to AV isk wise. IAFG used to cost 117k ISK. Now it's a drop in the bucket. No, dropships do not need more HP. Logi ships will. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2892	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:25:00 - [57] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Nope, things aren't fine but they are the best since Chromosome. You don't use vehicles, so how can you say that? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2892	Posted - 2015.02.10 16:26:00 - [58] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: People running around in armour LAVs with particle accelerators are impossible to take down with AV because they out run your swarms/PLC round every damn time. Intelligence is OP. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2892	Posted - 2015.02.10 17:01:00 - [59] - Quote Joel II X wrote: It shouldn't take one player to control an MAV, either. Then logis should have to take out each others' equipment. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Sinboto Simmons Dead Man's Game RUST415 7688	Posted - 2015.02.10 17:40:00 - [60] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: 3: As a tank, where's your infantry? We more faster, we don't always like small turrets, and we move faster. As a dropship, why are you so close? What are we supposed to do, stay at the flight cap the whole game? 4: I agree, needs to be more expensive to AV isk wise. IAFG used to cost 117k ISK. Now it's a drop in the bucket. No, dropships do not need more HP. Logi ships will. You move faster, that's the excuse you're going with, right then. I asked why he was so close that he had no evasion chance against even AV grenades. Logi, yes, ADS/DS: no. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2 Born of the Brutor tribe



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