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Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 54	Posted - 2015.01.03 02:02:00 - [1] - Quote Before posting a reply please read all of what I typed as I spent a lot of time getting this set up as well as preparing how I would state my thoughts thank you and have a nice day o7 Yesterday I talked to a guy that's new to the game and he asked me if vehicles were worth the amount of SP needed to skill in them.... I almost immediately said yes but I stopped myself and said look I'll lend you a few of my tanks for a few matches and you tell me if they are or they are not... Within 2-3 minutes of the first game he gets taken out by what he called a wall of missiles and large blasts (I presume it was Swarms and forge guns) I told him no worries I loan him another tank it then 3-4 minutes later gets killed by a JLAV and says he doesn't even know what happened. Directly after that match he says "Vehicles are absolutely terrible and I feel bad for whoever has decided to invest in them" Now that I've stated my friend's opinion I'll state my own and I'll begin with a few major points, these being : Why are vehicle specialists in a bad position right now, what is our purpose on the battlefield, Cost vs reward, and last but not least how to fix them (in my opinion) Why are vehicle specialists in a bad position right now? I run AV as well as Vehicles, one thing that is for sure is that vehicle specialists do not stand a chance when going up against a single competent and proficient AV personnel. We have received multiple nerfs such as: Large Rail Gun overheat time, Hardner effectiveness, Blaster dispersion, and Heavy armor reps (Not all recent but still very harsh nerfs. Meanwhile we have Swarm Launchers which have recently been buffed multiple times including maximum damage output, and flight speed. Forge Guns they've stayed relatively OP for quite a while. What is a Vehicle Specialist's role on the battlefield? Well as of right now I'd say our best purpose is to take out other vehicles, and then be a distraction for the multitude of red dots which will take out AV to attempt and dispatch which will cause us to flee in an attempt to stay alive (This is the role of vehicle specialists on the battlefield from my personal experiences other vehicles specialists please post below if yours have been different along with how they were different) Cost vs reward... This all comes down to what you want to use vehicle wise, I prefer having the best chances of survival so I use proto, and then on top of that since all of my Large turrets are pretty bad at killing infantry I throw on two particle cannons as they are the best for quickly dispatching enemy infantry and vehicles overall, however doing this along with my main proto turret and proto modules the price of this take is over 600,000 ISK!? Which means if I lose it I won't be able to make a profit for the next two matches! Not to mention the price of the suit I have on whilst driving and or flying. Not to mention putting those 2 small turrets severely impacts the overall tank of the vehicle. Now onto Assault Dropships, they are the best for killing infantry quickly however you are EVEN more vulnerable than the tank with 2 turrets on it as it is nearly impossible to tank a decent amount of shields or armor on the vehicle. How to fix Vehicles? Well first off restoring hardeners back to their old states would be a major step in the right direction as far as leveling the playing field between AV and tanks, after doing this bring back enforcer/marauder hav's and logi dropships. Another great help for vehicles would be either taking away or a large reduction in Large Blaster Dispersion to give it some anti infantry capability. Next bring back turret variations as that would be beyond beneficial to vehicle specialists, as we don't have much variety as of the moment which means AV users already know what to expect by the time they see the HAV or ADS. Lower the price of Large turrets by around 5-10%. This is how I believe Vehicles could be changed for the better... Please post your opinions and or reactions below. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14803	Posted - 2015.01.03 03:58:00 - [2] - Quote The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms (2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4260	Posted - 2015.01.03 04:02:00 - [3] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Yesterday I talked to a guy that's new to the game and he asked me if vehicles were worth the amount of SP needed to skill in them.... I almost immediately said yes but I stopped myself and said look I'll lend you a few of my tanks for a few matches and you tell me if they are or they are not... Within 2-3 minutes of the first game he gets taken out by what he called a wall of missiles and large blasts (I presume it was Swarms and forge guns) I told him no worries I loan him another tank it then 3-4 minutes later gets killed by a JLAV and says he doesn't even know what happened. Directly after that match he says "Vehicles are absolutely terrible and I feel bad for whoever has decided to invest in them" If I may ask, was he using a Madrugar or a Gunnlogi? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 55	Posted - 2015.01.03 04:23:00 - [4] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Yesterday I talked to a guy that's new to the game and he asked me if vehicles were worth the amount of SP needed to skill in them.... I almost immediately said yes but I stopped myself and said look I'll lend you a few of my tanks for a few matches and you tell me if they are or they are not... Within 2-3 minutes of the first game he gets taken out by what he called a wall of missiles and large blasts (I presume it was Swarms and forge guns) I told him no worries I loan him another tank it then 3-4 minutes later gets killed by a JLAV and says he doesn't even know what happened. Directly after that match he says "Vehicles are absolutely terrible and I feel bad for whoever has decided to invest in them" If I may ask, was he using a Madrugar or a Gunnlogi? Gunlogi I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 55	Posted - 2015.01.03 04:23:00 - [5] - Quote Atiim wrote: The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms (2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. Maximum damage output was buffed as swarms now have much more ammo prior to the update Also I understand why you say what you do about the hardeners however there needs to be a happy medium it takes 2 shield hardeners minimum to notice a difference in damage coming at you as far as AV goes. As far as 80GJ blasters go while they aren't supposed to be an AP weapon. I can say the same thing about jlav's RE's weren't meant to be strapped to the hood of an LAV and driven into an HAV I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
DarthJT5 12th Shadow Legion 183	Posted - 2015.01.03 04:32:00 - [6] - Quote As a tanker and ADS pilot, I can say that V/AV is pretty balanced atm, with the Gunnlogi being slightly OP and the Madrugar slightly UP, which is due to the fact that there is no anti shield AV barring the Plc, and the gunny having much better fitting capabilities. Not bragging, but if I'm facing a single AV'er, whether in a tank or ADS, I never lose the vehicle (except JLAV. F*** those things).It's just a skill based thing, when you drive or fly for a while you don't lose to 1 AV guy. The only things that vehicles need right now is more variation(see Ratatti HAV bring back intitiative), nerf the ability of the Gunny to dual tank while buffing up Maddy PG/CPU to where it can fit proto tank and turret with skills maxed like the gunny can, and that's probably about it. Slight nerf to Shield regen while making it constant would be good too. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Up and coming Python pilot. The awnser is always XT missiles....
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2738	Posted - 2015.01.03 05:14:00 - [7] - Quote I'd hardly rely on the testimony of a noob player using his first two tanks. The correct response he should have had was, "What am I doing wrong, and how can I make myself better?" He shouldn't expect to get all the nuances in a day. Make him pay for his own tanks and maybe he'll be more careful and thoughtful in his actions. Personally, I don't see vehicles in a terrible spot. Sure, there are a lot of things that need fixing, but it's not unmanageable. If I had to suggest one change that had to happen, it would be to remove the damage bonus to swarms from the Minmando (hopefully keeping the MD bonus). Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4260	Posted - 2015.01.03 05:31:00 - [8] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Yesterday I talked to a guy that's new to the game and he asked me if vehicles were worth the amount of SP needed to skill in them.... I almost immediately said yes but I stopped myself and said look I'll lend you a few of my tanks for a few matches and you tell me if they are or they are not... Within 2-3 minutes of the first game he gets taken out by what he called a wall of missiles and large blasts (I presume it was Swarms and forge guns) I told him no worries I loan him another tank it then 3-4 minutes later gets killed by a JLAV and says he doesn't even know what happened. Directly after that match he says "Vehicles are absolutely terrible and I feel bad for whoever has decided to invest in them" If I may ask, was he using a Madrugar or a Gunnlogi? Gunlogi Geeze, good thing he wasn't in a Madrugar then. Then Gunnlogi performs FAR better than the Madrugar does. How did you have yours fit? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1440	Posted - 2015.01.03 06:06:00 - [9] - Quote Great story. I wish I had heard a new player complain about being killed by tanks or a dropship and not being able to do a damn thing about it, but we all know that never happens. Because, that's why.
Harpyja Legio DXIV 2237	Posted - 2015.01.03 06:36:00 - [10] - Quote DarthJT5 wrote: As a tanker and ADS pilot, I can say that V/AV is pretty balanced atm, with the Gunnlogi being slightly OP and the Madrugar slightly UP, which is due to the fact that there is no anti shield AV barring the Plc, and the gunny having much better fitting capabilities. Not bragging, but if I'm facing a single AV'er, whether in a tank or ADS, I never lose the vehicle (except JLAV. F*** those things).It's just a skill based thing, when you drive or fly for a while you don't lose to 1 AV guy. The only things that vehicles need right now is more variation(see Ratatti HAV bring back intitiative), nerf the ability of the Gunny to dual tank while buffing up Maddy PG/CPU to where it can fit proto tank and turret with skills maxed like the gunny can, and that's probably about it. Slight nerf to Shield regen while making it constant would be good too. I think the Gunnlogi is fine and it's the Madrugar that needs buffing. You say that the Gunnlogi can dual tank, which is true, but nerfing its fitting ability will also be a huge nerf for fits that max out PG and CPU through turrets and shield mods. I have several fittings that are tight on CPU and PG and have zero armor modules, so think twice before calling for a nerf. I'd just say buff the Madrugar and let it fit shield mods if it wants to. "By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4261	Posted - 2015.01.03 07:05:00 - [11] - Quote Harpyja wrote: I think the Gunnlogi is fine and it's the Madrugar that needs buffing. You say that the Gunnlogi can dual tank, which is true, but nerfing its fitting ability will also be a huge nerf for fits that max out PG and CPU through turrets and shield mods. I have several fittings that are tight on CPU and PG and have zero armor modules, so think twice before calling for a nerf. I'd just say buff the Madrugar and let it fit shield mods if it wants to. I think in general any sort of armor tanking on a Caldari vehicle should be greatly discouraged. If anything I'd leave the Gunnlogi's resources as is (assuming no future change to slot layouts) and increase the PG needed for heavy armor modules. Then buff Madrugar accordingly so it can easily handle the increase PG requirements of the armor. Additionally the Madrugar is CPU starved and needs to be addressed as well. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 55	Posted - 2015.01.03 07:07:00 - [12] - Quote Tank vs tank and ds vs ds is an amazing place right now, my issue is with av vs vehicles. There is never just 1 av guy and I do agree it is a skill based thing and I've been taking for a while, not as long as others but I've seen my fair share of PC's and would like to think I've shown what I'm capable of there, however you can't do much against something that you can't run nor hide from.... I've talked/messaged a few people in game... Jammeh Mcjam told me this point and it's hands down the best arguement for vehicles v av in my opinion, it goes as follows: "How would AV players feel if all they had was standard AV vs Proto vehicles? As the Standard tanks have to deal with proto AV as of the moment with out an option." I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4261	Posted - 2015.01.03 07:13:00 - [13] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Tank vs tank an amazing place right now, ...you're joking right? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 55	Posted - 2015.01.03 07:20:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Tank vs tank an amazing place right now, ...you're joking right? I haven't had an issue in tank v tank fights, please tell me what makes them not in a great place. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4261	Posted - 2015.01.03 08:03:00 - [15] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Tank vs tank an amazing place right now, ...you're joking right? I haven't had an issue in tank v tank fights, please tell me what makes them not in a great place. I won't totally derail your thread but lets just take a look at a few things Difference Between the fitting Potential of a Madrugar and Gunnlogi Madrugar http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10228 Raw Total HP = 7085 HP Average Armor eHP = 7887 Armor eHP (Calcs: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2519975#post2519975) Average Shield eHP = 1200 Shield eHP Total Average eHP = 9087 Total eHP Average Time to Regen 100% of Armor eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing) Complex Armor Repair: 43 seconds Enhanced Armor Repair: 53 seconds Basic Armor Repair: 59 seconds http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10227 Raw Total HP = 6925 HP Average Shield eHP = 6877 Shield eHP Average Armor eHP = 2950 Armor eHP Total Average eHP = 9827 Total eHP Average time to Regen 100% of Shield eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing) Natural Shield Regen (No Modules): 28 seconds In short, you can similar levels of raw HP between a shield and armor HAV. When hardeners are taken into account the shield vehicle ends up with around 800 more eHP overall. Additionally the Gunnlogi's natural shield recharge rate, which requires no modules, regens faster than the best heavy armor repairer with maxed out skills. Also because shield hardeners are more effective (15% better) than armor hardeners, this means that most of its eHP is because of high resistance and not raw HP. However since regen effects only the raw HP, the effective regen rate is actually significantly higher than the listed value. So in short the Gunnlogi is capable of more eHp than the Madrugar as well as a significantly higher regen rate. While it is true that a Gunnlogi can forgo the armor plate in place of more utility and better turrets, the Madrugar I linked above is the best defenses it can muster, leaving it with nothing in the high slots and a standard large blaster (It is incapable of fitting a Railgun or Missile turret due to CPU restrictions). So with the current balance of resources, the Gunnlogi is guaranteed to have either better defenses, offense, or utility over the Madrugar in essentially every case. This is far from "an amazing place" in terms of balance. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 6135	Posted - 2015.01.03 08:49:00 - [16] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Maximum damage output was buffed as swarms now have much more ammo prior to the update You need to elaborate. Rounds per magazine were not buffed. Only the militia ever had 2 per mag. STD and up have had three since closed beta. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 224	Posted - 2015.01.03 13:04:00 - [17] - Quote This is pretty interesting read though it is only from a HAV's point of view and not the other vehicles. There are a lot more issues with vehicles that have not been addressed and it seems however further Dust stays around vehicles will remain exactly how they are based on how everything has gone quiet after the talk of improving vehicles hasn't been much or said much after the promise of rapid adjustments. *Gabriella Grey* "Amarr Ace Pilot" Saracen Squadron 7th Fleet Division
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1454	Posted - 2015.01.03 17:54:00 - [18] - Quote Atiim wrote: The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms (2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. The blaster turret is the last turret I turn to when I think Anti-Vehicle. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4266	Posted - 2015.01.03 18:42:00 - [19] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms (2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. The blaster turret is the last turret I turn to when I think Anti-Vehicle. Quite true, its pretty terrible at AV. I consider it the most AP-centric Large turret which is fine but its AV capabilities still fall too short. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 57	Posted - 2015.01.03 18:49:00 - [20] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Tank vs tank an amazing place right now, ...you're joking right? I haven't had an issue in tank v tank fights, please tell me what makes them not in a great place. I won't totally derail your thread but lets just take a look at a few things Difference Between the fitting Potential of a Madrugar and Gunnlogi Madrugar http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10228 Raw Total HP = 7085 HP Average Armor eHP = 7887 Armor eHP (Calcs: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2519975#post2519975) Average Shield eHP = 1200 Shield eHP Total Average eHP = 9087 Total eHP Average Time to Regen 100% of Armor eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing) Complex Armor Repair: 43 seconds Enhanced Armor Repair: 53 seconds Basic Armor Repair: 59 seconds http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10227 Raw Total HP = 6925 HP Average Shield eHP = 6877 Shield eHP Average Armor eHP = 2950 Armor eHP Total Average eHP = 9827 Total eHP Average time to Regen 100% of Shield eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing) Natural Shield Regen (No Modules): 28 seconds In short, you can similar levels of raw HP between a shield and armor HAV. When hardeners are taken into account the shield vehicle ends up with around 800 more eHP overall. Additionally the Gunnlogi's natural shield recharge rate, which requires no modules, regens faster than the best heavy armor repairer with maxed out skills. Also because shield hardeners are more effective (15% better) than armor hardeners, this means that most of its eHP is because of high resistance and not raw HP. However since regen effects only the raw HP, the effective regen rate is actually significantly higher than the listed value. So in short the Gunnlogi is capable of more eHp than the Madrugar as well as a significantly higher regen rate. While it is true that a Gunnlogi can forgo the armor plate in place of more utility and better turrets, the Madrugar I linked above is the best defenses it can muster, leaving it with nothing in the high slots and a standard large blaster (It is incapable of fitting a Railgun or Missile turret due to CPU restrictions). So with the current balance of resources, the Gunnlogi is guaranteed to have either better defenses, offense, or utility over the Madrugar in essentially every case. This is far from "an amazing place" in terms of balance. There are major fitting differences but it's still not impossible nor is it hard to fit a solo madrugar (not a tri gunner) The ability for the madrugar to look through it's own hull and still be able to fire makes up for those fitting issues in my opinion as long as it is used correctly. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.

Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 57	Posted - 2015.01.03 18:50:00 - [21] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: This is pretty interesting read though it is only from a HAV's point of view and not the other vehicles. There are a lot more issues with vehicles that have not been addressed and it seems however further Dust stays around vehicles will remain exactly how they are based on how everything has gone quiet after the talk of improving vehicles hasn't been much or said much after the promise of rapid adjustments. I have had a lot of issues with dropships as well I'll alter the main text to include the issues I've found with those as well... I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4267	Posted - 2015.01.03 18:57:00 - [22] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: There are major fitting differences but it's still not impossible nor is it hard to fit a solo madrugar (not a tri gunner) The ability for the madrugar to look through it's own hull and still be able to fire makes up for those fitting issues in my opinion as long as it is used correctly. ...........so you're saying because its turret has a little more depression, that it's ok to have less utility, less damage output, less HP, and slower regen than the Gunnlogi? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 57	Posted - 2015.01.03 19:25:00 - [23] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: There are major fitting differences but it's still not impossible nor is it hard to fit a solo madrugar (not a tri gunner) The ability for the madrugar to look through it's own hull and still be able to fire makes up for those fitting issues in my opinion as long as it is used correctly. ...........so you're saying because its turret has a little more depression, that it's ok to have less utility, less damage output, less HP, and slower regen than the Gunnlogi? If you want to get into the nitty gritty details the regen on the Gunlogi is uncertain this being said because it takes 1 hit from anything that causes damage besides small arms fire and it's regen stops, while the maddy's continues and it never stops (armor reps)... Explain how it has less utility? They have the exact same damage output, that simply varies on turret type, and when you say less HP, what are you going to do armor stack a madrugar for a one time large health pool or are you going to rep stack it for a longer life? I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4267	Posted - 2015.01.03 19:36:00 - [24] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: There are major fitting differences but it's still not impossible nor is it hard to fit a solo madrugar (not a tri gunner) The ability for the madrugar to look through it's own hull and still be able to fire makes up for those fitting issues in my opinion as long as it is used correctly. ...........so you're saying because its turret has a little more depression, that it's ok to have less utility, less damage output, less HP, and slower regen than the Gunnlogi? If you want to get into the nitty gritty details the regen on the Gunlogi is uncertain this being said because it takes 1 hit from anything that causes damage besides small arms fire and it's regen stops, while the maddy's continues and it never stops (armor reps)... Explain how it has less utility? They have the exact same damage output, that simply varies on turret type, and when you say less HP, what are you going to do armor stack a madrugar for a one time large health pool or are you going to rep stack it for a longer life? Do you understand what the term utility means in the context of the game? Did you even look at the stats I listed? You can health stack more HP on a Gunnlogi and still have superior regen. What are you talking about? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 57	Posted - 2015.01.03 20:13:00 - [25] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: There are major fitting differences but it's still not impossible nor is it hard to fit a solo madrugar (not a tri gunner) The ability for the madrugar to look through it's own hull and still be able to fire makes up for those fitting issues in my opinion as long as it is used correctly. ...........so you're saying because its turret has a little more depression, that it's ok to have less utility, less damage output, less HP, and slower regen than the Gunnlogi? If you want to get into the nitty gritty details the regen on the Gunlogi is uncertain this being said because it takes 1 hit from anything that causes damage besides small arms fire and it's regen stops, while the maddy's continues and it never stops (armor reps)... Explain how it has less utility? They have the exact same damage output, that simply varies on turret type, and when you say less HP, what are you going to do armor stack a madrugar for a one time large health pool or are you going to rep stack it for a longer life? Do you understand what the term utility means in the context of the game? Did you even look at the stats I listed? You can health stack more HP on a Gunnlogi and still have superior regen. What are you talking about? Also, for damage output. Go to Protofits and make a Gunnlogi with all proto defenses in its high slots, and fit the best turret you can. Now do the same for a Madrugar. You'll find that the best turret you can fit on a Madrugar is a Standard. The Gunnlogi can fit a higher tier, even without resource upgrade modules in the lows. Therefor the Gunnlogi maintains superior defenses but can also fit a better, more damaging turret at the same time. Gunlogi's are not as good as they seem on paper and madrugar's are not as bad as they seem on paper until you actual go on the field with each of them and see how well each of them do individually both vs av and vs tanks. If they get the buff your asking for it will simply become another tank 514 era... For instance who would last longer vs a single Wyrikomi breach forge a madrugar or a gunlogi? I'm currently running madrugar's in pubs and it is performing far better than the gunlogi... If you wish to see for yourself just say it and I'll shoot you an invite, we even have Doc DDD in squad. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4267	Posted - 2015.01.03 20:17:00 - [26] - Quote So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 57	Posted - 2015.01.03 20:21:00 - [27] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? Basically as the Madrugar doesn't need it and I'm field testing it and it is doing just fine and even excelling in things that the gunlogi cannot do I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4267	Posted - 2015.01.03 20:27:00 - [28] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? Basically as the Madrugar doesn't need it and I'm field testing it and it is doing just fine and even excelling in things that the gunlogi cannot do Then I guess this conversation is over, I have no interest in talking if you really call that "balanced". both slower Regen and less eHP does not properly balanced no matter what you say. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 57	Posted - 2015.01.03 20:29:00 - [29] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? Basically as the Madrugar doesn't need it and I'm field testing it and it is doing just fine and even excelling in things that the gunlogi cannot do Then I guess this conversation is over, I have no interest in talking if you really call that "balanced". both slower Regen and less eHP does not properly balanced no matter what you say. Good as if you have no interest in properly field testing it then how can you call it unbalanced? Off of paper stats you can't always decide whether or not it is or is not balanced off of paper stats I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4268	Posted - 2015.01.03 20:34:00 - [30] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? Basically as the Madrugar doesn't need it and I'm field testing it and it is doing just fine and even excelling in things that the gunlogi cannot do Then I guess this conversation is over, I have no interest in talking if you really call that "balanced". both slower Regen and less eHP does not properly balanced no matter what you say. Good as if you have no interest in properly field testing it then how can you call it unbalanced? Off of paper stats you can't always decide whether or not it is or is not balanced off of paper stats Been running Gunnlogis and Madrugars since 2012, I know very well how each has performed through multiple iterations. Any HAV pilot worth his salt can point out severe problems with how the Madrugar works both in fitting and on the field. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16398	Posted - 2015.01.03 22:06:00 - [31] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Been running Gunnlogis and Madrugars since 2012, I know very well how each has performed through multiple iterations. Any HAV pilot worth his salt can point out severe problems with how the Madrugar works both in fitting and on the field. As usual Pokey is right on this. I've always been an armour tanker from the start of Uprising and even before then when I would gun occasionally on our corps Sagaris. I've "field tested" as you put it every conceivable fit from the 6375 HP "Combat Madrugar" to the Lighter, faster, and harder hitting tanks. I changed to the Gunnlogi after 1.7 simply because its on field and on paper statistics are significantly better than those of the Madrugar. The Madrugar on and off paper does not excel at anything, it does not regenerate fast, it does not resist damage, it does not reach high eHP values, it does not handle well, it does not fit higher tier on rack modules well, it does not it off rack utility modules, it take more damage from most AV forms, and simply does not stack up in any way shape or form. The Shield HAV simply does everything the armour tank once did better than it does now and has all the benefits shield tanks had before.....but better. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 280	Posted - 2015.01.04 02:25:00 - [32] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? A gunlogi can not fit all proto defences, by your logic a madrugar can also fit all proto defenses with pg cpu chips. Madrugars require a different play style. Madrugars can run a scanner and rep armor for over 300 hps immediately, gunlogis can not. Madrugars can run a nitro and rep armor for over 300 hps immediately, gunlogis can not. Madrugars also have a 1200 point shield buffer than regen automatically before thier main defenses are even impacted. If a Gunlogis gets into armor chances are it's goin to pop. Madrugars have a higher top speed A triple rep madrugar can absorb and outrep a single proto av infantry player indefinately, a Gun logi cannot. It is more about playing the game than making lists on paper and crying for buffs when your build keeps getting popped and you refuse to change your play style. AV is overpowered right now. There is no refuting this. No amount of logical discussions on the forums will amount to anything because 90% of the people that post on the forums prefer av over running a vehicle. In my opinion the next level vehicles should have 5 percent reduction to all av damage per level on top of race specific turret bonuses. But it will never happen because the garbage players want to spec minmitar commando and threeshot every vehicle that tries to come out of the redline. The garbage players want the game to get easier, not face a challenge and adapt. Don'tcall in a madrugar and drive around like you are in a gunlogi.
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 238	Posted - 2015.01.04 02:30:00 - [33] - Quote Their role is to get shot at by AV. I would know .-. Amarrian In Disguise.. Pain is weakness leaving the body. Proto : ADS Pilot, Tanker, Heavy, Scout, Assault
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16401	Posted - 2015.01.04 03:22:00 - [34] - Quote Have you played this game recently? You stated that Gunnlogi cannot fit proto defences. This is wholly untrue. A Gunnlogi has the natural ability to fit a prototype module in each one of its primary racial tank slots, aka High Slots for Shield Modules, while the Madrugar simply cannot even with maxed out fitting skills. This is a primary issue since the Gunnlogi can also make use of its naturally higher fitting allocations and boost them further by allocating one Low Slot to a fitting module (more often than not a PG boosters). This means that not only can the Gunnlogi Tank Shields but it also have the capability to fit an additionally Low Slot Module of ADV or higher tiering inclusive of Armour Plates, Armour Reppers, and Armour Hardeners. This is one of the primary reasons that Gunnlogi is so imbalanced right now as it can literally have a passive shield tank of roughly 7120 and Armour Values of around 2950 leaking to a fit that is over 10K eHP on a standard hull. By contrast the Madrugar cannot even come close the these eHP values with out having to fit a Hardener and a Prototype 120mm Armour Plate the eHP of the hull amounts to under ideal situations. (4000 + 1885) * 1.25 = 7356 + 1200 = 8556 eHP which is around 1500 less total eHP than Shield HAV. Not only this but armour is again more susceptible to all commonly used AV forms from the Swarm Launcher to the Large Railgun ( there are 9 Anti Armour forms off the top of my head vs 4 Anti Shield forms of AV). Moreover the Shield HAV under a circumstance like this will have greater regenerative power than the Madrugar @ 168 Shield restored per second vs the singular lower tier armour repper you will have fit. Even under the 3x Armour Repper model the Shield HAV still possesses and inherent shield repair capacity of 1/2 your modules efficiency without having to fit a single module and nearly twice your eHP. A Gunnlogi can effectually regenerate its shield through the DPS of lesser tank turrets and installations while its hardener is on(or so I have observed on several occasions) and in addition to the 15% more efficient Hardener modules it also comes with the additionally benefits of a 20% resist profile to explosive AV and 10-15% to Hybrid AV variants reducing the incoming damage even further effectually nullifying and aggressing players Proficiency values to some degree making incoming damage manageable while on Armour Tanks it's reduced 15% resist profile cannot even keep up with incoming damage. Furthermore if I really wish to rub salt into the wound the Shield Tank is a significantly better platform in terms of manoeuvrability and fitting capacity. In order to fit 3 Heavy Repairer units you must sacrifice Proto Turret or reduce the quality of your reppers below prototype in order to fit a better turret and utility modules. If you choose to use a CPU module you are directly weakening your racial armour tank. This is all while a Gunnlogi does not reduce its racial tank by making use of fitting modules. Additionally the Shield Tank's manoeuvrability profile is significantly better for the Missile (current GOD turret of tanks and the be all end all of tank battles) and Railguns (Primary Anti Tank weapons and significantly more common on the field) as it's hull tracking values compensates for those turrets lack of horizontal traversal making them significantly easier to use and more accurate when it comes to target acquisition. In summary - Yes you can have 375 reps per second however vs Railguns whose DPS is 1184 (no damage module) you are still suffering 800 DPS roughly per second. Vs Missiles you simply cannot survive as you may only get 2 seconds worth of regenerative power. - You can fit a scanner on your Madrugar however with the prevalence of infantry active scanners you really should have no need of such things as tanks will always appear on your mini map and infantry aggressing you will be obvious in terms of location. The most you would ever need a vehicle scanner for was if you were attacking a structure being internally defended and needed that extra half second to prefire an opening. - Armour Tanks in Dust do not have a playstyle. At one point they did have a lore appropriate, eve appropriate, logically though out style of slow, close combat brawlers, while shields were faster hit an run tanks. Looking at the mobility profiles of the HAV and their current capabilities these roles have been inverted except shield tanks still do what armour tanks should do except better in every way. - AV is not over powered. Vs armour vehicles it is no balanced because such vehicles suffer from an altered paradigm of functionality which has only served to make them so flimsy vs most AV that they have no place to function on the battlefield. Moreover the discovered of and prevalence of the JLAV (explosive AV) and its capacity to deal 10554 explosive damage has ensured that the affectionately called "Maddy" has no place on the field. - Ideally one should be able to take the HAV's to the field and function in a racially and logically appropriate manner and expect no less basic functionality from one tank vs another. However in the current climate the Madrugar offers pilots nothing that the Gunnlogi does not and is no longer able to function in a manner that I would associate with the Gallente or armour vehicles in general. It's 15% less efficient plates and the removal of the 180mm armour plate alongside fitting allocation changes and the removal of active armour reps has served to hamstring the vehicle. IT IS ON AND OFF PAPER WORSE THAN THE GUNNLOGI. DEAL WITH IT. ((Note pilot skill is always of consequence but two equally skilled pilots with one of either tank will almost always see the Gunnlogi win the fight)) *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4269	Posted - 2015.01.04 03:53:00 - [35] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? A gunlogi can not fit all proto defences, by your logic a madrugar can also fit all proto defenses with pg cpu chips. Pokey Dravon wrote: Madrugar http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10228 Gunnlogi http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10227 Look at the fits an educate yourself. Gunnlogi can easily fill its main rack with 3 proto modules with plenty of resources left over. Madrugar can also fit main rack proto modules but has significantly less resources left over. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 280	Posted - 2015.01.04 04:30:00 - [36] - Quote On paper the Madrugar has more base armor than the gunlogi had base shields so it must be better right? On paper the Madrugar had higher top speed so it must be better right? On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots to still have less sheld than the base amount of armor on a Madrugar making the Madrugar better right? On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots for nitro or a scanner or a damage mod so it is better right? Try playing the game, it's alot different now than it was 6 months ago, educate you self by joining a battle rather than sitting on proto fits theory crafting. Nothing shreds infantry like a madrugar with an ion canon and a good pilot. The fact you can shoot someone standing anywhere around the chassis makes it number one versus infantry. It can also rep through damage immediately after it is applied with no downtime. Nitro to safety when 2 militia forges start firing on you. If a madrugar fits a rail and goes toe to toe with a properly fit gunlogi with a rail, then the Madrugar is doing it wrong. The madrugars Forte is its constant reps so it needs cover versus alpha damage. It seems more like 2 people that don't even play this game are trying to hijack this thread to try and get madrugars buffed. Shield infantry play styles are different than armor infantry, learn from this. Oh and funny thing, one of my Madrugar fits has three proto modules in its low slots, educate yourself. I'm not really interested in responding to broken English Stat spewing of fits no one ever use or someone crying that they can't fit 3 heavy armor reps and nitro on a rail madrugar. I'm going to play the game.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4269	Posted - 2015.01.04 04:43:00 - [37] - Quote facepalm higher raw HP is not as good as higher resists if eHP is the same, mostly due the fact that high resists offer a higher effective recharge rate. So in reality, its better to have less base HP with better resists than it is to have lots of base HP and lesser resists. Also this conversation was about the fitting potential between a Madrugar and a Gunnlogi, specifically about tank vs tank. So sure, you can comment on the Ion Cannon shredding infantry but that's not what I'm talking about. But hey, you're just going to assume I don't even play the game right? You know what they say when you assume... I guess my point is, if a Gunnlogi can fit full proto shield modules and still put utility modules in its lows, why is a Madrugar who fits full proto armor modules in its lows, not allowed to fit utility modules in its highs? It's not theory crafting, it's not a matter of field testing, I just want to be able to fit the same Meta Level on my Madrugar as I can my Gunnlogi. Or is that asking for too much? Oh also funny thing is I have a Madrugar fit with 3 proto modules in low as well, I've been saying that for quite a while now. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
jane stalin Ametat Security Amarr Empire 79	Posted - 2015.01.04 04:47:00 - [38] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: one thing that is for sure is that vehicle specialists do not stand a chance when going up against a single competent and proficient AV personnel.. What do you mean a single person dedicated to AV can take out a proto tank? Can you give an example of a proto tanks HP and regeneration and the damage per second of the single person that easily kills it.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16405	Posted - 2015.01.04 05:27:00 - [39] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: On paper the Madrugar has more base armor than the gunlogi had base shields so it must be better right? On paper the Madrugar had higher top speed so it must be better right? On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots to still have less sheld than the base amount of armor on a Madrugar making the Madrugar better right? On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots for nitro or a scanner or a damage mod so it is better right? Try playing the game, it's alot different now than it was 6 months ago, educate you self by joining a battle rather than sitting on proto fits theory crafting. Nothing shreds infantry like a madrugar with an ion canon and a good pilot. The fact you can shoot someone standing anywhere around the chassis makes it number one versus infantry. It can also rep through damage immediately after it is applied with no downtime. Nitro to safety when 2 militia forges start firing on you. If a madrugar fits a rail and goes toe to toe with a properly fit gunlogi with a rail, then the Madrugar is doing it wrong. The madrugars Forte is its constant reps so it needs cover versus alpha damage. It seems more like 2 people that don't even play this game are trying to hijack this thread to try and get madrugars buffed. Shield infantry play styles are different than armor infantry, learn from this. Oh and funny thing, one of my Madrugar fits has three proto modules in its low slots, educate yourself. I'm not really interested in responding to broken English Stat spewing of fits no one ever use or someone crying that they can't fit 3 heavy armor reps and nitro on a rail madrugar. I'm going to play the game. I had this very long post typed out detailing responses to each point here but I decided that the logic you used.....the one I was attempting to address was so shoddy it didn't merit the time. Instead I have to ask...... What dream world are you guys living in. By you guys I mean the tankers in Dust who actually think they are driving tanks. The ones who think that having all the power in the world and no limits actually made you good? Seriously. You cannot argue with statistics. They are transparent, unbiased, and indicative. When you see that a Gunlogi can have 10,000 eHP and a 168 rep per second regen for fitting no module, the best turret in the game, and two small turrets vs the Maddy only might fit maybe 8,500 eHP that can't fit half the meta level in terms of modules why do you not say "oh something must be really wrong there". How can you ignore this obvious imbalance and then blame it on AV? *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 57	Posted - 2015.01.04 05:45:00 - [40] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Doc DDD wrote: On paper the Madrugar has more base armor than the gunlogi had base shields so it must be better right? On paper the Madrugar had higher top speed so it must be better right? On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots to still have less sheld than the base amount of armor on a Madrugar making the Madrugar better right? On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots for nitro or a scanner or a damage mod so it is better right? Try playing the game, it's alot different now than it was 6 months ago, educate you self by joining a battle rather than sitting on proto fits theory crafting. Nothing shreds infantry like a madrugar with an ion canon and a good pilot. The fact you can shoot someone standing anywhere around the chassis makes it number one versus infantry. It can also rep through damage immediately after it is applied with no downtime. Nitro to safety when 2 militia forges start firing on you. If a madrugar fits a rail and goes toe to toe with a properly fit gunlogi with a rail, then the Madrugar is doing it wrong. The madrugars Forte is its constant reps so it needs cover versus alpha damage. It seems more like 2 people that don't even play this game are trying to hijack this thread to try and get madrugars buffed. Shield infantry play styles are different than armor infantry, learn from this. Oh and funny thing, one of my Madrugar fits has three proto modules in its low slots, educate yourself. I'm not really interested in responding to broken English Stat spewing of fits no one ever use or someone crying that they can't fit 3 heavy armor reps and nitro on a rail madrugar. I'm going to play the game. I had this very long post typed out detailing responses to each point here but I decided that the logic you used.....the one I was attempting to address was so shoddy it didn't merit the time. Instead I have to ask...... What dream world are you guys living in. By you guys I mean the tankers in Dust who actually think they are driving tanks. The ones who think that having all the power in the world and no limits actually made you good? Seriously. You cannot argue with statistics. They are transparent, unbiased, and indicative. When you see that a Gunlogi can have 10,000 eHP and a 168 rep per second regen for fitting no module, the best turret in the game, and two small turrets vs the Maddy only might fit maybe 8,500 eHP that can't fit half the meta level in terms of modules why do you not say "oh something must be really wrong there". How can you ignore this obvious imbalance and then blame it on AV? Earlier today for about four hours straight I ran nothing besides a madrugar with rail I only lost 1 tank Doc DDD was my witness as well as SeargentSavage as they were both there the entire time. During this time I faced multiple proto gunlogi's and madrugars some even having Missiles in fact one was a SICA with xt's (smh) however the maddy's speed won the day as turret rotation can't keep up... But the Madrugar needs a buff... Well screw it you know what I wouldn't mind having a God like tank to drive so go for it :D I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4270	Posted - 2015.01.04 06:00:00 - [41] - Quote https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16406	Posted - 2015.01.04 06:10:00 - [42] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal Classic. The point is I can cite all day and night about how I've run shield HAV and beaten armour HAV in fights, etc and how it was all thanks to my superior ability to fit 10K eHP or handle around their turrets. This means nothing as it is not only a biased example but also one that has no sound bearing to prop it up as neither you or I can actually verify it as truth. Sounds great you and Doc DDD who have the same opinions and obviously run together in squads ( two tankers apparently in organised and concerted squads vs those who probably aren't) but that means nothing to me and certainly is not data that would or could convince the only person who matters CCP Rattati of your stand point. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
Tread Loudly 2 0verstoned Inc. 57	Posted - 2015.01.04 18:05:00 - [43] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal Classic. The point is I can cite all day and night about how I've run shield HAV and beaten armour HAV in fights, etc and how it was all thanks to my superior ability to fit 10K eHP or handle around their turrets. This means nothing as it is not only a biased example but also one that has no sound bearing to prop it up as neither you or I can actually verify it as truth. Sounds great you and Doc DDD who have the same opinions and obviously run together in squads ( two tankers apparently in organised and concerted squads vs those who probably aren't) but that means nothing to me and certainly is not data that would or could convince the only person who matters CCP Rattati of your stand point. As I said before if you really think the Madrugar should be buffed I could care less as I would enjoy another OP tank especially seeing as the performance is all read great... However let's get back to the core issue instead of worrying about this. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1221	Posted - 2015.01.05 00:12:00 - [44] - Quote DarthJT5 wrote: when you drive or fly for a while you don't lose to 1 AV guy. This is true only if you are concerned with only not losing the vehicle: if you are actually helping your teammates, you are enormously more likely to lose a vehicle. Doc DDD wrote: A triple rep madrugar can absorb and outrep a single proto av infantry player indefinately, a Gun logi cannot. AV is overpowered right now. There is no refuting this. The first statement is blatantly untrue: Wiyrkomi Swarms: 312 damage per missile; 1248 per volley; 1435.2 per Prof 5 volley. Lock-on Time is 1.05s at Op 5; assuming a 0.2s refire delay (ie, user delay) that's 1.25s between volleys. Reload Time is 3.825s at RR 5; with 3 volleys, that's a magazine emptied then reloaded in 7.575s So that's a sustained DPS of 494; with Prof 5 that's 568. Profile applies too, making that 592/681 against Armour. If we remove the reload time, for the DPS of each magazine, that's 998.4/1148 Any way you look at it, a triple PRO rep Maddy (412.5/s) cannot out rep a PRO Swarm (not got the FG numbers memorised, the IAFG is roughly the same; normal FG is worse and liable to be outrepped; the breach is an alpha weapon.) As for your second statement, that is definitely refutable. There are issues with AV, and as an ADS pilot I tend to fixate on the swarm rendering, but they are not definably overpowered, but there are issues (primarily with the ease of use of the Swarm.) Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4275	Posted - 2015.01.05 00:52:00 - [45] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Any way you look at it, a triple PRO rep Maddy (412.5/s) cannot out rep a PRO Swarm (not got the FG numbers memorised, the IAFG is roughly the same; normal FG is worse and liable to be outrepped; the breach is an alpha weapon.) Actually it's impossible to fit 3 Heavy Complex Armor Repairers on a Madrugar, as much as many people will lead you to believe. There is insufficient CPU to fit 3 on there, so actually the most you can fit is 2 Complex and 1 Enhanced, which brings the max armor repair rate to 387.5 HP/s. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 178	Posted - 2015.01.05 02:01:00 - [46] - Quote I gave up on tanks maybe three months ago. I might slap together a crap tank and try once but I wont blow more than 200k a battle. Madrugars are slow as poop now, I cant even bring myself to run em. I don't want to just triple rep up and be one of those either. Gunnlogi has good maneuverability but meh tanking skill. Rail range is a joke. I keep saying it but nobody listens. We need our module/turret variety back. THEN worry about hulls. Bleh. Q-sync fanboys with 4 tanks and multiple ground troop support don't have a voice on this. 3 man pub squads stand no chance. Oh, a word on large blasters. Yup. AV.... uh huh.... whatever. RE tossers or forge snipers haven't been stopped but OH NO YOU CANT KILL PEOPLE WITH THAT TURRET NERFNERFNERF fml "Tossin uplinks and runnin fer my life" ~ Gunny blownapart "Lets group up and push an objective" ~ No blueberry ever
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1221	Posted - 2015.01.05 02:24:00 - [47] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Any way you look at it, a triple PRO rep Maddy (412.5/s) cannot out rep a PRO Swarm (not got the FG numbers memorised, the IAFG is roughly the same; normal FG is worse and liable to be outrepped; the breach is an alpha weapon.) Actually it's impossible to fit 3 Heavy Complex Armor Repairers on a Madrugar, as much as many people will lead you to believe otherwise. There is insufficient CPU to fit 3 on there, so actually the most you can fit is 2 Complex and 1 Enhanced, which brings the max armor repair rate to 387.5 HP/s. Well, that makes that point further reinforced Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2673	Posted - 2015.01.05 02:38:00 - [48] - Quote DarthJT5 wrote: As a tanker and ADS pilot, I can say that V/AV is pretty balanced atm, with the Gunnlogi being slightly OP and the Madrugar slightly UP, which is due to the fact that there is no anti shield AV barring the Plc, and the gunny having much better fitting capabilities. Not bragging, but if I'm facing a single AV'er, whether in a tank or ADS, I never lose the vehicle (except JLAV. F* those things).It's just a skill based thing, when you drive or fly for a while you don't lose to 1 AV guy. The only things that vehicles need right now is more variation(see Ratatti HAV bring back intitiative), nerf the ability of the Gunny to dual tank while buffing up Maddy PG/CPU to where it can fit proto tank and turret with skills maxed like the gunny can, and that's probably about it. Slight nerf to Shield regen while making it constant would be good too. What the **? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2673	Posted - 2015.01.05 02:40:00 - [49] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Tank vs tank and ds vs ds is an amazing place right now, my issue is with av vs vehicles. There is never just 1 av guy and I do agree it is a skill based thing and I've been taking for a while, not as long as others but I've seen my fair share of PC's and would like to think I've shown what I'm capable of there, however you can't do much against something that you can't run nor hide from.... I've talked/messaged a few people in game... Jammeh Mcjam told me this point and it's hands down the best arguement for vehicles v av in my opinion, it goes as follows: "How would AV players feel if all they had was standard AV vs Proto vehicles? As the Standard tanks have to deal with proto AV as of the moment with out an option." While the madrugar isn't 100% up to par with gunlogi's fitting capabilities it can still do one thing that gunlogi's cannot which still makes it a tad better in my opinion... Again, what the ****? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2673	Posted - 2015.01.05 02:43:00 - [50] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Tank vs tank an amazing place right now, ...you're joking right? I haven't had an issue in tank v tank fights, please tell me what makes them not in a great place. I won't totally derail your thread but lets just take a look at a few things Difference Between the fitting Potential of a Madrugar and Gunnlogi Madrugar http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10228 Raw Total HP = 7085 HP Average Armor eHP = 7887 Armor eHP (Calcs: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2519975#post2519975) Average Shield eHP = 1200 Shield eHP Total Average eHP = 9087 Total eHP Average Time to Regen 100% of Armor eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing) Complex Armor Repair: 43 seconds Enhanced Armor Repair: 53 seconds Basic Armor Repair: 59 seconds http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10227 Raw Total HP = 6925 HP Average Shield eHP = 6877 Shield eHP Average Armor eHP = 2950 Armor eHP Total Average eHP = 9827 Total eHP Average time to Regen 100% of Shield eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing) Natural Shield Regen (No Modules): 28 seconds In short, you can similar levels of raw HP between a shield and armor HAV. When hardeners are taken into account the shield vehicle ends up with around 800 more eHP overall. Additionally the Gunnlogi's natural shield recharge rate, which requires no modules, regens faster than the best heavy armor repairer with maxed out skills. Also because shield hardeners are more effective (15% better) than armor hardeners, this means that most of its eHP is because of high resistance and not raw HP. However since regen effects only the raw HP, the effective regen rate is actually significantly higher than the listed value. So in short the Gunnlogi is capable of more eHp than the Madrugar as well as a significantly higher regen rate. While it is true that a Gunnlogi can forgo the armor plate in place of more utility and better turrets, the Madrugar I linked above is the best defenses it can muster, leaving it with nothing in the high slots and a standard large blaster (It is incapable of fitting a Railgun or Missile turret due to CPU restrictions). So with the current balance of resources, the Gunnlogi is guaranteed to have either better defenses, offense, or utility over the Madrugar in essentially every case. This is far from "an amazing place" in terms of balance. Adding onto that, blaster < rockets or rails. You have to be a complete idiot to lose to a blaster pilot, unless you yourself has a blaster. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2673	Posted - 2015.01.05 02:44:00 - [51] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms (2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. The blaster turret is the last turret I turn to when I think Anti-Vehicle. Quite true, its pretty terrible at AV. I consider it the most AP-centric Large turret which is fine but its AV capabilities still fall too short. Which is why it should be a shotty turret, as we discussed, other vex mind. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2673	Posted - 2015.01.05 02:59:00 - [52] - Quote This thread tickled me, Pokey did good work. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16423	Posted - 2015.01.05 03:03:00 - [53] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms (2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. The blaster turret is the last turret I turn to when I think Anti-Vehicle. Quite true, its pretty terrible at AV. I consider it the most AP-centric Large turret which is fine but its AV capabilities still fall too short. Which is why it should be a shotty turret, as we discussed, other vex mind. I'm more inclined to suggest something like a 25mm gun or the CZ75 from PS2 *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16423	Posted - 2015.01.05 03:11:00 - [54] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Any way you look at it, a triple PRO rep Maddy (412.5/s) cannot out rep a PRO Swarm (not got the FG numbers memorised, the IAFG is roughly the same; normal FG is worse and liable to be outrepped; the breach is an alpha weapon.) Actually it's impossible to fit 3 Heavy Complex Armor Repairers on a Madrugar, as much as many people will lead you to believe otherwise. There is insufficient CPU to fit 3 on there, so actually the most you can fit is 2 Complex and 1 Enhanced, which brings the max armor repair rate to 387.5 HP/s. Well, that makes that point further reinforced You haven't reinforced anything considering your turret under that fitting is garbage. That's 100 less DPS than an Ion Cannon, 200 less than the Particle Cannon and almost 1200 less than the Xt201. There's no point to fitting 3 reppers as your resilience to alpha damage is far too low at that point. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2673	Posted - 2015.01.05 03:52:00 - [55] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms (2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. The blaster turret is the last turret I turn to when I think Anti-Vehicle. Quite true, its pretty terrible at AV. I consider it the most AP-centric Large turret which is fine but its AV capabilities still fall too short. Which is why it should be a shotty turret, as we discussed, other vex mind. I'm more inclined to suggest something like a 25mm gun or the CZ75 from PS2 linkz, and it would just work. Think about it: It wouldn't snipe anything, because shotgun. If it had good damage, it would be a solid run in, blast the hell out of something, get out. EDIT: Found what you were talking about, and I'm meh about that. That seems like a better choice for a medium turret imo. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 200	Posted - 2015.01.05 05:37:00 - [56] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Atiim wrote: The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms (2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. Maximum damage output was buffed as swarms now have much more ammo prior to the update Also I understand why you say what you do about the hardeners however there needs to be a happy medium it takes 2 shield hardeners minimum to notice a difference in damage coming at you as far as AV goes. As far as 80GJ blasters go while they aren't supposed to be an AP weapon. I can say the same thing about jlav's RE's weren't meant to be strapped to the hood of an LAV and driven into an HAV im sorry but thats wrong damage was nerfed( slightly) as well as going from 4 to a clip to 3. just because they changed the ammo from 5% per level to 1 per level ( i believe it stayed the same or it increased it to one extra volly) wont mean anything if by the time you reload the tank is gone or your dead. reload with minmando is roughly about 2-3 seconds and lock is 3 seconds with a 1 sec brake in between to reestablish another 3 second lock. ive done all 3 tank ads and AV. Sir Dukey- If one person is smart he should be able to keep vehicle at bay but not destroy it unless its a stupid driver
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4277	Posted - 2015.01.05 07:44:00 - [57] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Any way you look at it, a triple PRO rep Maddy (412.5/s) cannot out rep a PRO Swarm (not got the FG numbers memorised, the IAFG is roughly the same; normal FG is worse and liable to be outrepped; the breach is an alpha weapon.) Actually it's impossible to fit 3 Heavy Complex Armor Repairers on a Madrugar, as much as many people will lead you to believe otherwise. There is insufficient CPU to fit 3 on there, so actually the most you can fit is 2 Complex and 1 Enhanced, which brings the max armor repair rate to 387.5 HP/s. Well, that makes that point further reinforced You haven't reinforced anything considering your turret under that fitting is garbage. That's 100 less DPS than an Ion Cannon, 200 less than the Particle Cannon and almost 1200 less than the Xt201. There's no point to fitting 3 reppers as your resilience to alpha damage is far too low at that point. I think he's stating that the fact that you can't even fit 3 complex reps further shows that you can't outrep the DPS of a swarm launcher, since it's about a 25 DPS drop in repping power between a complex vs an enhanced repper. And yes you are correct, triple repped fits work well against Swarm Launchers but pretty much fails against everything else. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 141	Posted - 2015.01.05 16:18:00 - [58] - Quote Weapon wise, I feel we need a turret with slow rate of fire and high splash damage, high damage and high radius. We need a better turret against infantry. 48th Special Operations Force. "As a team or alone, I dominate the battlefield."
Hynox Xitio Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1904	Posted - 2015.01.06 05:31:00 - [59] - Quote Remove all vehicles. The horror! The horror! ( -íº -£-û -íº)
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2673	Posted - 2015.01.06 05:43:00 - [60] - Quote Hynox Xitio wrote: Remove all vehicles. I will end you. You have been warned. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-



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