DUST Search - Vehicle Specialists!?

Doc DDD wrote:

On paper the Madrugar has more base armor than the gunlogi had base shields so it must be better right?

On paper the Madrugar had higher top speed so it must be better right?

On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots to still have less sheld than the base amount of armor on a Madrugar making the Madrugar better right?

On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots for nitro or a scanner or a damage mod so it is better right?

Try playing the game, it's alot different now than it was 6 months ago, educate you self by joining a battle rather than sitting on proto fits theory crafting.

Nothing shreds infantry like a madrugar with an ion canon and a good pilot. The fact you can shoot someone standing anywhere around the chassis makes it number one versus infantry. It can also rep through damage immediately after it is applied with no downtime. Nitro to safety when 2 militia forges start firing on you. If a madrugar fits a rail and goes toe to toe with a properly fit gunlogi with a rail, then the Madrugar is doing it wrong. The madrugars Forte is its constant reps so it needs cover versus alpha damage.

It seems more like 2 people that don't even play this game are trying to hijack this thread to try and get madrugars buffed.

Shield infantry play styles are different than armor infantry, learn from this.

Oh and funny thing, one of my Madrugar fits has three proto modules in its low slots, educate yourself.

I'm not really interested in responding to broken English Stat spewing of fits no one ever use or someone crying that they can't fit 3 heavy armor reps and nitro on a rail madrugar. I'm going to play the game.

*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.


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True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16398	Posted - 2015.01.03 22:06:00 - [1] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Been running Gunnlogis and Madrugars since 2012, I know very well how each has performed through multiple iterations. Any HAV pilot worth his salt can point out severe problems with how the Madrugar works both in fitting and on the field. As usual Pokey is right on this. I've always been an armour tanker from the start of Uprising and even before then when I would gun occasionally on our corps Sagaris. I've "field tested" as you put it every conceivable fit from the 6375 HP "Combat Madrugar" to the Lighter, faster, and harder hitting tanks. I changed to the Gunnlogi after 1.7 simply because its on field and on paper statistics are significantly better than those of the Madrugar. The Madrugar on and off paper does not excel at anything, it does not regenerate fast, it does not resist damage, it does not reach high eHP values, it does not handle well, it does not fit higher tier on rack modules well, it does not it off rack utility modules, it take more damage from most AV forms, and simply does not stack up in any way shape or form. The Shield HAV simply does everything the armour tank once did better than it does now and has all the benefits shield tanks had before.....but better. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16401	Posted - 2015.01.04 03:22:00 - [2] - Quote Have you played this game recently? You stated that Gunnlogi cannot fit proto defences. This is wholly untrue. A Gunnlogi has the natural ability to fit a prototype module in each one of its primary racial tank slots, aka High Slots for Shield Modules, while the Madrugar simply cannot even with maxed out fitting skills. This is a primary issue since the Gunnlogi can also make use of its naturally higher fitting allocations and boost them further by allocating one Low Slot to a fitting module (more often than not a PG boosters). This means that not only can the Gunnlogi Tank Shields but it also have the capability to fit an additionally Low Slot Module of ADV or higher tiering inclusive of Armour Plates, Armour Reppers, and Armour Hardeners. This is one of the primary reasons that Gunnlogi is so imbalanced right now as it can literally have a passive shield tank of roughly 7120 and Armour Values of around 2950 leaking to a fit that is over 10K eHP on a standard hull. By contrast the Madrugar cannot even come close the these eHP values with out having to fit a Hardener and a Prototype 120mm Armour Plate the eHP of the hull amounts to under ideal situations. (4000 + 1885) * 1.25 = 7356 + 1200 = 8556 eHP which is around 1500 less total eHP than Shield HAV. Not only this but armour is again more susceptible to all commonly used AV forms from the Swarm Launcher to the Large Railgun ( there are 9 Anti Armour forms off the top of my head vs 4 Anti Shield forms of AV). Moreover the Shield HAV under a circumstance like this will have greater regenerative power than the Madrugar @ 168 Shield restored per second vs the singular lower tier armour repper you will have fit. Even under the 3x Armour Repper model the Shield HAV still possesses and inherent shield repair capacity of 1/2 your modules efficiency without having to fit a single module and nearly twice your eHP. A Gunnlogi can effectually regenerate its shield through the DPS of lesser tank turrets and installations while its hardener is on(or so I have observed on several occasions) and in addition to the 15% more efficient Hardener modules it also comes with the additionally benefits of a 20% resist profile to explosive AV and 10-15% to Hybrid AV variants reducing the incoming damage even further effectually nullifying and aggressing players Proficiency values to some degree making incoming damage manageable while on Armour Tanks it's reduced 15% resist profile cannot even keep up with incoming damage. Furthermore if I really wish to rub salt into the wound the Shield Tank is a significantly better platform in terms of manoeuvrability and fitting capacity. In order to fit 3 Heavy Repairer units you must sacrifice Proto Turret or reduce the quality of your reppers below prototype in order to fit a better turret and utility modules. If you choose to use a CPU module you are directly weakening your racial armour tank. This is all while a Gunnlogi does not reduce its racial tank by making use of fitting modules. Additionally the Shield Tank's manoeuvrability profile is significantly better for the Missile (current GOD turret of tanks and the be all end all of tank battles) and Railguns (Primary Anti Tank weapons and significantly more common on the field) as it's hull tracking values compensates for those turrets lack of horizontal traversal making them significantly easier to use and more accurate when it comes to target acquisition. In summary - Yes you can have 375 reps per second however vs Railguns whose DPS is 1184 (no damage module) you are still suffering 800 DPS roughly per second. Vs Missiles you simply cannot survive as you may only get 2 seconds worth of regenerative power. - You can fit a scanner on your Madrugar however with the prevalence of infantry active scanners you really should have no need of such things as tanks will always appear on your mini map and infantry aggressing you will be obvious in terms of location. The most you would ever need a vehicle scanner for was if you were attacking a structure being internally defended and needed that extra half second to prefire an opening. - Armour Tanks in Dust do not have a playstyle. At one point they did have a lore appropriate, eve appropriate, logically though out style of slow, close combat brawlers, while shields were faster hit an run tanks. Looking at the mobility profiles of the HAV and their current capabilities these roles have been inverted except shield tanks still do what armour tanks should do except better in every way. - AV is not over powered. Vs armour vehicles it is no balanced because such vehicles suffer from an altered paradigm of functionality which has only served to make them so flimsy vs most AV that they have no place to function on the battlefield. Moreover the discovered of and prevalence of the JLAV (explosive AV) and its capacity to deal 10554 explosive damage has ensured that the affectionately called "Maddy" has no place on the field. - Ideally one should be able to take the HAV's to the field and function in a racially and logically appropriate manner and expect no less basic functionality from one tank vs another. However in the current climate the Madrugar offers pilots nothing that the Gunnlogi does not and is no longer able to function in a manner that I would associate with the Gallente or armour vehicles in general. It's 15% less efficient plates and the removal of the 180mm armour plate alongside fitting allocation changes and the removal of active armour reps has served to hamstring the vehicle. IT IS ON AND OFF PAPER WORSE THAN THE GUNNLOGI. DEAL WITH IT. ((Note pilot skill is always of consequence but two equally skilled pilots with one of either tank will almost always see the Gunnlogi win the fight)) *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16405	Posted - 2015.01.04 05:27:00 - [3] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: On paper the Madrugar has more base armor than the gunlogi had base shields so it must be better right? On paper the Madrugar had higher top speed so it must be better right? On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots to still have less sheld than the base amount of armor on a Madrugar making the Madrugar better right? On paper the Madrugar doesn't have to sacrifice one of its main defensive slots for nitro or a scanner or a damage mod so it is better right? Try playing the game, it's alot different now than it was 6 months ago, educate you self by joining a battle rather than sitting on proto fits theory crafting. Nothing shreds infantry like a madrugar with an ion canon and a good pilot. The fact you can shoot someone standing anywhere around the chassis makes it number one versus infantry. It can also rep through damage immediately after it is applied with no downtime. Nitro to safety when 2 militia forges start firing on you. If a madrugar fits a rail and goes toe to toe with a properly fit gunlogi with a rail, then the Madrugar is doing it wrong. The madrugars Forte is its constant reps so it needs cover versus alpha damage. It seems more like 2 people that don't even play this game are trying to hijack this thread to try and get madrugars buffed. Shield infantry play styles are different than armor infantry, learn from this. Oh and funny thing, one of my Madrugar fits has three proto modules in its low slots, educate yourself. I'm not really interested in responding to broken English Stat spewing of fits no one ever use or someone crying that they can't fit 3 heavy armor reps and nitro on a rail madrugar. I'm going to play the game. I had this very long post typed out detailing responses to each point here but I decided that the logic you used.....the one I was attempting to address was so shoddy it didn't merit the time. Instead I have to ask...... What dream world are you guys living in. By you guys I mean the tankers in Dust who actually think they are driving tanks. The ones who think that having all the power in the world and no limits actually made you good? Seriously. You cannot argue with statistics. They are transparent, unbiased, and indicative. When you see that a Gunlogi can have 10,000 eHP and a 168 rep per second regen for fitting no module, the best turret in the game, and two small turrets vs the Maddy only might fit maybe 8,500 eHP that can't fit half the meta level in terms of modules why do you not say "oh something must be really wrong there". How can you ignore this obvious imbalance and then blame it on AV? *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16406	Posted - 2015.01.04 06:10:00 - [4] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal Classic. The point is I can cite all day and night about how I've run shield HAV and beaten armour HAV in fights, etc and how it was all thanks to my superior ability to fit 10K eHP or handle around their turrets. This means nothing as it is not only a biased example but also one that has no sound bearing to prop it up as neither you or I can actually verify it as truth. Sounds great you and Doc DDD who have the same opinions and obviously run together in squads ( two tankers apparently in organised and concerted squads vs those who probably aren't) but that means nothing to me and certainly is not data that would or could convince the only person who matters CCP Rattati of your stand point. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16423	Posted - 2015.01.05 03:03:00 - [5] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Atiim wrote: The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms (2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. The blaster turret is the last turret I turn to when I think Anti-Vehicle. Quite true, its pretty terrible at AV. I consider it the most AP-centric Large turret which is fine but its AV capabilities still fall too short. Which is why it should be a shotty turret, as we discussed, other vex mind. I'm more inclined to suggest something like a 25mm gun or the CZ75 from PS2 *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16423	Posted - 2015.01.05 03:11:00 - [6] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Any way you look at it, a triple PRO rep Maddy (412.5/s) cannot out rep a PRO Swarm (not got the FG numbers memorised, the IAFG is roughly the same; normal FG is worse and liable to be outrepped; the breach is an alpha weapon.) Actually it's impossible to fit 3 Heavy Complex Armor Repairers on a Madrugar, as much as many people will lead you to believe otherwise. There is insufficient CPU to fit 3 on there, so actually the most you can fit is 2 Complex and 1 Enhanced, which brings the max armor repair rate to 387.5 HP/s. Well, that makes that point further reinforced You haven't reinforced anything considering your turret under that fitting is garbage. That's 100 less DPS than an Ion Cannon, 200 less than the Particle Cannon and almost 1200 less than the Xt201. There's no point to fitting 3 reppers as your resilience to alpha damage is far too low at that point. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.