If I may ask, was he using a Madrugar or a Gunnlogi?

The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248).

Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2).

(1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms
(2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out.

...you're joking right?

I won't totally derail your thread but lets just take a look at a few things

Difference Between the fitting Potential of a Madrugar and Gunnlogi

Madrugar
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10228
Raw Total HP = 7085 HP
Average Armor eHP = 7887 Armor eHP (Calcs: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2519975#post2519975)
Average Shield eHP = 1200 Shield eHP
Total Average eHP = 9087 Total eHP

Average Time to Regen 100% of Armor eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing)
Complex Armor Repair: 43 seconds
Enhanced Armor Repair: 53 seconds
Basic Armor Repair: 59 seconds


http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10227
Raw Total HP = 6925 HP
Average Shield eHP = 6877 Shield eHP
Average Armor eHP = 2950 Armor eHP
Total Average eHP = 9827 Total eHP

Average time to Regen 100% of Shield eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing)
Natural Shield Regen (No Modules): 28 seconds


In short, you can similar levels of raw HP between a shield and armor HAV. When hardeners are taken into account the shield vehicle ends up with around 800 more eHP overall. Additionally the Gunnlogi's natural shield recharge rate, which requires no modules, regens faster than the best heavy armor repairer with maxed out skills. Also because shield hardeners are more effective (15% better) than armor hardeners, this means that most of its eHP is because of high resistance and not raw HP. However since regen effects only the raw HP, the effective regen rate is actually significantly higher than the listed value. So in short the Gunnlogi is capable of more eHp than the Madrugar as well as a significantly higher regen rate.

While it is true that a Gunnlogi can forgo the armor plate in place of more utility and better turrets, the Madrugar I linked above is the best defenses it can muster, leaving it with nothing in the high slots and a standard large blaster (It is incapable of fitting a Railgun or Missile turret due to CPU restrictions). So with the current balance of resources, the Gunnlogi is guaranteed to have either better defenses, offense, or utility over the Madrugar in essentially every case. This is far from "an amazing place" in terms of balance.

This is pretty interesting read though it is only from a HAV's point of view and not the other vehicles. There are a lot more issues with vehicles that have not been addressed and it seems however further Dust stays around vehicles will remain exactly how they are based on how everything has gone quiet after the talk of improving vehicles hasn't been much or said much after the promise of rapid adjustments.

...........so you're saying because its turret has a little more depression, that it's ok to have less utility, less damage output, less HP, and slower regen than the Gunnlogi?

Do you understand what the term utility means in the context of the game?

Did you even look at the stats I listed? You can health stack more HP on a Gunnlogi and still have superior regen. What are you talking about?

Also, for damage output. Go to Protofits and make a Gunnlogi with all proto defenses in its high slots, and fit the best turret you can. Now do the same for a Madrugar. You'll find that the best turret you can fit on a Madrugar is a Standard. The Gunnlogi can fit a higher tier, even without resource upgrade modules in the lows. Therefor the Gunnlogi maintains superior defenses but can also fit a better, more damaging turret at the same time.

So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying?

Then I guess this conversation is over, I have no interest in talking if you really call that "balanced".

both slower Regen and less eHP does not properly balanced no matter what you say.

I had this very long post typed out detailing responses to each point here but I decided that the logic you used.....the one I was attempting to address was so shoddy it didn't merit the time.

Instead I have to ask...... What dream world are you guys living in. By you guys I mean the tankers in Dust who actually think they are driving tanks. The ones who think that having all the power in the world and no limits actually made you good?

Seriously.

You cannot argue with statistics. They are transparent, unbiased, and indicative.

When you see that a Gunlogi can have 10,000 eHP and a 168 rep per second regen for fitting no module, the best turret in the game, and two small turrets vs the Maddy only might fit maybe 8,500 eHP that can't fit half the meta level in terms of modules why do you not say "oh something must be really wrong there".

How can you ignore this obvious imbalance and then blame it on AV?

Classic.

The point is I can cite all day and night about how I've run shield HAV and beaten armour HAV in fights, etc and how it was all thanks to my superior ability to fit 10K eHP or handle around their turrets.

This means nothing as it is not only a biased example but also one that has no sound bearing to prop it up as neither you or I can actually verify it as truth.

Sounds great you and Doc DDD who have the same opinions and obviously run together in squads ( two tankers apparently in organised and concerted squads vs those who probably aren't) but that means nothing to me and certainly is not data that would or could convince the only person who matters CCP Rattati of your stand point.