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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4260
   |
Posted - 2015.01.03 04:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tread Loudly 2 wrote:
Yesterday I talked to a guy that's new to the game and he asked me if vehicles were worth the amount of SP needed to skill in them.... I almost immediately said yes but I stopped myself and said look I'll lend you a few of my tanks for a few matches and you tell me if they are or they are not... Within 2-3 minutes of the first game he gets taken out by what he called a wall of missiles and large blasts (I presume it was Swarms and forge guns) I told him no worries I loan him another tank it then 3-4 minutes later gets killed by a JLAV and says he doesn't even know what happened. Directly after that match he says "Vehicles are absolutely terrible and I feel bad for whoever has decided to invest in them"
If I may ask, was he using a Madrugar or a Gunnlogi?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4260
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 05:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tread Loudly 2 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Tread Loudly 2 wrote:
Yesterday I talked to a guy that's new to the game and he asked me if vehicles were worth the amount of SP needed to skill in them.... I almost immediately said yes but I stopped myself and said look I'll lend you a few of my tanks for a few matches and you tell me if they are or they are not... Within 2-3 minutes of the first game he gets taken out by what he called a wall of missiles and large blasts (I presume it was Swarms and forge guns) I told him no worries I loan him another tank it then 3-4 minutes later gets killed by a JLAV and says he doesn't even know what happened. Directly after that match he says "Vehicles are absolutely terrible and I feel bad for whoever has decided to invest in them"
If I may ask, was he using a Madrugar or a Gunnlogi? Gunlogi
Geeze, good thing he wasn't in a Madrugar then. Then Gunnlogi performs FAR better than the Madrugar does. How did you have yours fit?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4261
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 07:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:
I think the Gunnlogi is fine and it's the Madrugar that needs buffing. You say that the Gunnlogi can dual tank, which is true, but nerfing its fitting ability will also be a huge nerf for fits that max out PG and CPU through turrets and shield mods. I have several fittings that are tight on CPU and PG and have zero armor modules, so think twice before calling for a nerf. I'd just say buff the Madrugar and let it fit shield mods if it wants to.
I think in general any sort of armor tanking on a Caldari vehicle should be greatly discouraged. If anything I'd leave the Gunnlogi's resources as is (assuming no future change to slot layouts) and increase the PG needed for heavy armor modules. Then buff Madrugar accordingly so it can easily handle the increase PG requirements of the armor. Additionally the Madrugar is CPU starved and needs to be addressed as well.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4261
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 07:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tread Loudly 2 wrote:Tank vs tank an amazing place right now,
...you're joking right?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4261
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 08:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tread Loudly 2 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Tread Loudly 2 wrote:Tank vs tank an amazing place right now, ...you're joking right? I haven't had an issue in tank v tank fights, please tell me what makes them not in a great place.
I won't totally derail your thread but lets just take a look at a few things
Difference Between the fitting Potential of a Madrugar and Gunnlogi
Madrugar
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10228
Raw Total HP = 7085 HP
Average Armor eHP = 7887 Armor eHP (Calcs: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2519975#post2519975)
Average Shield eHP = 1200 Shield eHP
Total Average eHP = 9087 Total eHP
Average Time to Regen 100% of Armor eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing)
Complex Armor Repair: 43 seconds
Enhanced Armor Repair: 53 seconds
Basic Armor Repair: 59 seconds
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/10227
Raw Total HP = 6925 HP
Average Shield eHP = 6877 Shield eHP
Average Armor eHP = 2950 Armor eHP
Total Average eHP = 9827 Total eHP
Average time to Regen 100% of Shield eHP: (Calcs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing)
Natural Shield Regen (No Modules): 28 seconds
In short, you can similar levels of raw HP between a shield and armor HAV. When hardeners are taken into account the shield vehicle ends up with around 800 more eHP overall. Additionally the Gunnlogi's natural shield recharge rate, which requires no modules, regens faster than the best heavy armor repairer with maxed out skills. Also because shield hardeners are more effective (15% better) than armor hardeners, this means that most of its eHP is because of high resistance and not raw HP. However since regen effects only the raw HP, the effective regen rate is actually significantly higher than the listed value. So in short the Gunnlogi is capable of more eHp than the Madrugar as well as a significantly higher regen rate.
While it is true that a Gunnlogi can forgo the armor plate in place of more utility and better turrets, the Madrugar I linked above is the best defenses it can muster, leaving it with nothing in the high slots and a standard large blaster (It is incapable of fitting a Railgun or Missile turret due to CPU restrictions). So with the current balance of resources, the Gunnlogi is guaranteed to have either better defenses, offense, or utility over the Madrugar in essentially every case. This is far from "an amazing place" in terms of balance.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4266
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 18:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Atiim wrote:The Swarm Launcher's maximum damage ouput was not buffed, in fact it was slightly nefed in HF Charlie when the missiles per tier was normalized to 4 (1320 down to 1248). Bringing Hardeners back to where they used to be will never happen, as that would allow HAVs to become invincible to AV weapons (1). The 80GJ Blaster dispersion will remain as is, because the 80GJ Blaster is not (nor was it ever) supposed to be an AP weapon (2). (1) Judge Rhadamanthus - The Problem With Swarms(2) CCP Rattati - LOL, 2 weeks on Vacation and HotFix Bravo comes out. The blaster turret is the last turret I turn to when I think Anti-Vehicle.
Quite true, its pretty terrible at AV. I consider it the most AP-centric Large turret which is fine but its AV capabilities still fall too short.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4267
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 18:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tread Loudly 2 wrote:
There are major fitting differences but it's still not impossible nor is it hard to fit a solo madrugar (not a tri gunner) The ability for the madrugar to look through it's own hull and still be able to fire makes up for those fitting issues in my opinion as long as it is used correctly.
...........so you're saying because its turret has a little more depression, that it's ok to have less utility, less damage output, less HP, and slower regen than the Gunnlogi?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4267
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 19:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tread Loudly 2 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Tread Loudly 2 wrote:
There are major fitting differences but it's still not impossible nor is it hard to fit a solo madrugar (not a tri gunner) The ability for the madrugar to look through it's own hull and still be able to fire makes up for those fitting issues in my opinion as long as it is used correctly.
...........so you're saying because its turret has a little more depression, that it's ok to have less utility, less damage output, less HP, and slower regen than the Gunnlogi? If you want to get into the nitty gritty details the regen on the Gunlogi is uncertain this being said because it takes 1 hit from anything that causes damage besides small arms fire and it's regen stops, while the maddy's continues and it never stops (armor reps)... Explain how it has less utility? They have the exact same damage output, that simply varies on turret type, and when you say less HP, what are you going to do armor stack a madrugar for a one time large health pool or are you going to rep stack it for a longer life?
Do you understand what the term utility means in the context of the game?
Did you even look at the stats I listed? You can health stack more HP on a Gunnlogi and still have superior regen. What are you talking about?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4267
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 20:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4267
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 20:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tread Loudly 2 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? Basically as the Madrugar doesn't need it and I'm field testing it and it is doing just fine and even excelling in things that the gunlogi cannot do
Then I guess this conversation is over, I have no interest in talking if you really call that "balanced".
both slower Regen and less eHP does not properly balanced no matter what you say.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4268
|
Posted - 2015.01.03 20:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tread Loudly 2 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Tread Loudly 2 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? Basically as the Madrugar doesn't need it and I'm field testing it and it is doing just fine and even excelling in things that the gunlogi cannot do Then I guess this conversation is over, I have no interest in talking if you really call that "balanced". both slower Regen and less eHP does not properly balanced no matter what you say. Good as if you have no interest in properly field testing it then how can you call it unbalanced? Off of paper stats you can't always decide whether or not it is or is not balanced off of paper stats
Been running Gunnlogis and Madrugars since 2012, I know very well how each has performed through multiple iterations. Any HAV pilot worth his salt can point out severe problems with how the Madrugar works both in fitting and on the field.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4269
|
Posted - 2015.01.04 03:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:So you really think that its fine that a Gunnlogi can fit full proto defenses and fill its lows with utility modules and still have resources to spare, yet the Madrugar can't? Is that what you're saying? A gunlogi can not fit all proto defences, by your logic a madrugar can also fit all proto defenses with pg cpu chips.
Look at the fits an educate yourself. Gunnlogi can easily fill its main rack with 3 proto modules with plenty of resources left over. Madrugar can also fit main rack proto modules but has significantly less resources left over.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4269
|
Posted - 2015.01.04 04:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
*facepalm* higher raw HP is not as good as higher resists if eHP is the same, mostly due the fact that high resists offer a higher effective recharge rate. So in reality, its better to have less base HP with better resists than it is to have lots of base HP and lesser resists.
Also this conversation was about the fitting potential between a Madrugar and a Gunnlogi, specifically about tank vs tank. So sure, you can comment on the Ion Cannon shredding infantry but that's not what I'm talking about. But hey, you're just going to assume I don't even play the game right? You know what they say when you assume...
I guess my point is, if a Gunnlogi can fit full proto shield modules and still put utility modules in its lows, why is a Madrugar who fits full proto armor modules in its lows, not allowed to fit utility modules in its highs? It's not theory crafting, it's not a matter of field testing, I just want to be able to fit the same Meta Level on my Madrugar as I can my Gunnlogi. Or is that asking for too much?
Oh also funny thing is I have a Madrugar fit with 3 proto modules in low as well, I've been saying that for quite a while now.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4270
|
Posted - 2015.01.04 06:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4275
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 00:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:
Any way you look at it, a triple PRO rep Maddy (412.5/s) cannot out rep a PRO Swarm (not got the FG numbers memorised, the IAFG is roughly the same; normal FG is worse and liable to be outrepped; the breach is an alpha weapon.)
Actually it's impossible to fit 3 Heavy Complex Armor Repairers on a Madrugar, as much as many people will lead you to believe. There is insufficient CPU to fit 3 on there, so actually the most you can fit is 2 Complex and 1 Enhanced, which brings the max armor repair rate to 387.5 HP/s.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4277
|
Posted - 2015.01.05 07:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:
Any way you look at it, a triple PRO rep Maddy (412.5/s) cannot out rep a PRO Swarm (not got the FG numbers memorised, the IAFG is roughly the same; normal FG is worse and liable to be outrepped; the breach is an alpha weapon.)
Actually it's impossible to fit 3 Heavy Complex Armor Repairers on a Madrugar, as much as many people will lead you to believe otherwise. There is insufficient CPU to fit 3 on there, so actually the most you can fit is 2 Complex and 1 Enhanced, which brings the max armor repair rate to 387.5 HP/s. Well, that makes that point further reinforced  You haven't reinforced anything considering your turret under that fitting is garbage. That's 100 less DPS than an Ion Cannon, 200 less than the Particle Cannon and almost 1200 less than the Xt201. There's no point to fitting 3 reppers as your resilience to alpha damage is far too low at that point.
I think he's stating that the fact that you can't even fit 3 complex reps further shows that you can't outrep the DPS of a swarm launcher, since it's about a 25 DPS drop in repping power between a complex vs an enhanced repper. And yes you are correct, triple repped fits work well against Swarm Launchers but pretty much fails against everything else.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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