DUST Search - To Rattati: HMG balance.

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Quote:

How to balance it in that range.

You can't. This has been proven time and time again.

Quote:

Changing it to a ranged weapon only adds problems, it doesn't solve any, because we would have to completely strip away all the previous changes that were made to the weapon to refine it as it was designed in the first place. I don't see any point in grabbing a new sheet of paper when we've already erased and fixed the wobbly lines.

the wobbly lines are still there, the damn thing resists balancing in CQC.

Quote:

Citing the Closed Beta HMG is also somewhat flawed because as I mentioned in a previous post the HMG was laser accurate

Incorrect, the laser HMG was a product of UPRISING, not Closed Beta. In Uprising the Dispersion characteristic got knocked back to the laser beam.

Quote:

I don't see any logical or rational evidence provided as to why it should be a longer ranged weapon other than entitlement and anecdotal evidence. There are much more simple solutions that exist to finish fine-tuning the weapon into balance than throwing all of that away and starting that from scratch because a handful of people said "I'm right and no-one wants to admit it" or "I've been playing heavy longer".

There is no more Evidence that it SHOULD be a CQC weapon than anecdote and opinion either. And without a drawback in CQC, adding range would be the idiot ball anyway, so quit cherry picking parts of peoples' ideas to point out why it's bad.

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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5961	Posted - 2014.12.24 16:45:00 - [31] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing about heavies changed in the last few months besides a heat build-up nerf. Why the nerf threads now? Nothing better to nerf? Strongboxes could only distract the QQ'ers for so long. A nerf is coming. It is important the the Sentinel community is involved in figuring out what that nerf will be. Go ask the ADS pilots what happens when you stick your head in the sand. This. So much this. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5600	Posted - 2014.12.24 16:50:00 - [32] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Range is actually way too high and most of you guys don't want to admit it either. I'm not saying that the range should be down to the shotgun's one, but 20-25m should be the maximum range of such a powerful weapon. Cutting the range in half would actually put it down to 20-25m. This is NEEDED. Or half the damages. But I'm sure you don't want that so.. The HMG is already nearly down to half the damage beyond 25m. What are you talking about? Did you look at the range stats for the HMG and think those actually meant anything? Range on the HMG is 100% dictated by dispersion. You can't kill anyone even close to the supposed max range of the HMG on paper. You could give the HMG a 1000m range, and it would not change anything. You still would not do damage beyond 40m and you would not be able to solo someone beyond 30m. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 317	Posted - 2014.12.24 20:28:00 - [33] - Quote HMG is fine, it is the suits that wields it resistances that are the problem. Within 30m the HMG should murder face. The problem is that at light weapon ranges even the heavy suit can waddle away because dps can not be applied fast enough to drop them. This is the problem. At range heavies should be cannon fodder, and just currently are not. This is partially due to kincats being too effective on heavies. My mlt bpo can get close to 7m sprint (thats close to assault speeds), have high hp, an murder (as intended) in cqc. TL;DR The hmg has plenty of drawbacks. The heavy suit has no drawbacks when fitted right. Sage /thread
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5969	Posted - 2014.12.24 20:31:00 - [34] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: HMG is fine, it is the suits that wields it resistances that are the problem. Within 30m the HMG should murder face. The problem is that at light weapon ranges even the heavy suit can waddle away because dps can not be applied fast enough to drop them. This is the problem. At range heavies should be cannon fodder, and just currently are not. This is partially due to kincats being too effective on heavies. My mlt bpo can get close to 7m sprint (thats close to assault speeds), have high hp, an murder (as intended) in cqc. TL;DR The hmg has plenty of drawbacks. The heavy suit has no drawbacks when fitted right. spoken like someone who's never used the sentinel before. Well done. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 317	Posted - 2014.12.24 20:48:00 - [35] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Doshneil Antaro wrote: HMG is fine, it is the suits that wields it resistances that are the problem. Within 30m the HMG should murder face. The problem is that at light weapon ranges even the heavy suit can waddle away because dps can not be applied fast enough to drop them. This is the problem. At range heavies should be cannon fodder, and just currently are not. This is partially due to kincats being too effective on heavies. My mlt bpo can get close to 7m sprint (thats close to assault speeds), have high hp, an murder (as intended) in cqc. TL;DR The hmg has plenty of drawbacks. The heavy suit has no drawbacks when fitted right. spoken like someone who's never used the sentinel before. Well done. Yeah because it is not like I have at least 5 alts with 30+ million sp and have not analized this entire game from every suit and vehicle possible. Oh wait, but I have done that. Sage /thread
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5970	Posted - 2014.12.24 20:54:00 - [36] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: Words Words Words Words The HMG is overperforming. You don't have time under normal circumstances to worry about the resists because you get mulched. And no one cares how much of a no-lifer you are. this doesn't make your opinion "More valid." 15% resists to one weapon profile and 10% to another isn't gamebreaking. But your assertion that it's only the resists on the suits ignores EVERY OTHER FACTOR behind why Sentinels are so successful and thus spammed. It's not just one reason. It's NEVER just one reason. Anyone who tells you otherwise has tunnel vision. My qualifications to make this statement? Galsent 5 Calsent 5 Minsent 5 Amsent 5 Forge gun 5 + prof HMG 5 + prof Been running sentinels almost exclusively since chromosome. Your assessment is dead wrong and attacks a symptom, not the cause EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 317	Posted - 2014.12.24 21:00:00 - [37] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Doshneil Antaro wrote: Words Words Words Words The HMG is overperforming. You don't have time under normal circumstances to worry about the resists because you get mulched. And no one cares how much of a no-lifer you are. this doesn't make your opinion "More valid." 15% resists to one weapon profile and 10% to another isn't gamebreaking. But your assertion that it's only the resists on the suits ignores EVERY OTHER FACTOR behind why Sentinels are so successful and thus spammed. It's not just one reason. It's NEVER just one reason. Anyone who tells you otherwise has tunnel vision. I noted it was the suit and talked about resistances and hinted at speeds with kincats. There are other issues with the suit as well, but I did not go into deep details about it. Instead I spoke from my experience and pointed out that perhaps this thread is looking into heavies OPness from the wrong angle. I did not attack or put anything you said down, but I was met with venom instead of a well thought out counter argument. Sorry if my 2nd response just fed your troll attempt against my persons. Good day sir. Sage /thread
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 335	Posted - 2014.12.24 21:02:00 - [38] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing about heavies changed in the last few months besides a heat build-up nerf. Why the nerf threads now? Nothing better to nerf? Strongboxes could only distract the QQ'ers for so long. A nerf is coming. It is important the the Sentinel community is involved in figuring out what that nerf will be. Go ask the ADS pilots what happens when you stick your head in the sand. I am an ads pilot, I was around for that horrible Nerf, never flew again. Heavies, screw you guys, don't need to be nerfed. All the suits are balanced right now just buff the logis.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5977	Posted - 2014.12.25 03:32:00 - [39] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing about heavies changed in the last few months besides a heat build-up nerf. Why the nerf threads now? Nothing better to nerf? Strongboxes could only distract the QQ'ers for so long. A nerf is coming. It is important the the Sentinel community is involved in figuring out what that nerf will be. Go ask the ADS pilots what happens when you stick your head in the sand. I am an ads pilot, I was around for that horrible Nerf, never flew again. Heavies, screw you guys, don't need to be nerfed. All the suits are balanced right now just buff the logis. nerfed is only one possible solution. My solution is to change the role of the HMG. My idea it'd still be lethel as hell, you just couldn't field it as mindlessly as most sentinels are nowadays. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2335	Posted - 2014.12.25 03:47:00 - [40] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing about heavies changed in the last few months besides a heat build-up nerf. Why the nerf threads now? Nothing better to nerf? Strongboxes could only distract the QQ'ers for so long. A nerf is coming. It is important the the Sentinel community is involved in figuring out what that nerf will be. Go ask the ADS pilots what happens when you stick your head in the sand. I am an ads pilot, I was around for that horrible Nerf, never flew again. Heavies, screw you guys, don't need to be nerfed. All the suits are balanced right now just buff the logis. nerfed is only one possible solution. My solution is to change the role of the HMG. My idea it'd still be lethel as hell, you just couldn't field it as mindlessly as most sentinels are nowadays. To? Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1441	Posted - 2014.12.25 04:27:00 - [41] - Quote Until the astounding hit detection issues are fixed the HMG does not need to be touched. Scouts are already allowed to stand in front of an HMG and survive. I think it is due to hit calculation not being able to keep up with the rate of fire. Of course once hit detection works properly a nerf will be very needed.
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7594	Posted - 2014.12.25 05:38:00 - [42] - Quote Can spend years debating on what everyone wants for the HMG, saying one side or the other is just QQing, it won't solve anything. Everyone has a different viewpoint on what it should be but at least by asserting that it is a CQC weapon (as it is currently) we can restrict our feedback to a more specific topic: How to balance it in that range. Changing it to a ranged weapon only adds problems, it doesn't solve any, because we would have to completely strip away all the previous changes that were made to the weapon to refine it as it was designed in the first place. I don't see any point in grabbing a new sheet of paper when we've already erased and fixed the wobbly lines. Citing the Closed Beta HMG is also somewhat flawed because as I mentioned in a previous post the HMG was laser accurate and more effective at longer ranges before the "Optimal range = maximum range" conundrum when Uprising was first released. The weapon became more accurate the longer you fired it and it had no dispersion, so it being a longer ranged weapon than intended was a bug and not be design... Something they fixed in 1.7. I don't see any logical or rational evidence provided as to why it should be a longer ranged weapon other than entitlement and anecdotal evidence. There are much more simple solutions that exist to finish fine-tuning the weapon into balance than throwing all of that away and starting that from scratch because a handful of people said "I'm right and no-one wants to admit it" or "I've been playing heavy longer". EDIT: As a reminder, this is what the HMG was like before it actually got dispersion and an RoF increase: http://youtu.be/DPBRYgUGBbw Aeon's Links I often sound negative because I ask questions no-one else will.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5987	Posted - 2014.12.25 08:19:00 - [43] - Quote Quote: How to balance it in that range. You can't. This has been proven time and time again. Quote: Changing it to a ranged weapon only adds problems, it doesn't solve any, because we would have to completely strip away all the previous changes that were made to the weapon to refine it as it was designed in the first place. I don't see any point in grabbing a new sheet of paper when we've already erased and fixed the wobbly lines. the wobbly lines are still there, the damn thing resists balancing in CQC. Quote: Citing the Closed Beta HMG is also somewhat flawed because as I mentioned in a previous post the HMG was laser accurate Incorrect, the laser HMG was a product of UPRISING, not Closed Beta. In Uprising the Dispersion characteristic got knocked back to the laser beam. Quote: I don't see any logical or rational evidence provided as to why it should be a longer ranged weapon other than entitlement and anecdotal evidence. There are much more simple solutions that exist to finish fine-tuning the weapon into balance than throwing all of that away and starting that from scratch because a handful of people said "I'm right and no-one wants to admit it" or "I've been playing heavy longer". There is no more Evidence that it SHOULD be a CQC weapon than anecdote and opinion either. And without a drawback in CQC, adding range would be the idiot ball anyway, so quit cherry picking parts of peoples' ideas to point out why it's bad. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 115	Posted - 2014.12.25 09:33:00 - [44] - Quote In the RL when you want to decrease a behavior increase it's cost. The HMG is fine just make heavy weapons more expensive. A Dillon M134 cost a lot more than H&K G36.
Her Chosen Grade No.2 163	Posted - 2014.12.25 09:38:00 - [45] - Quote GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: In the RL when you want to decrease a behavior increase it's cost. The HMG is fine just make heavy weapons more expensive. A Dillon M134 cost a lot more than H&K G36. You're new here. A heavy setup used to cost about 1,000,000 ISK. It was the most OP thing(more than now) in the game at the time. Cost didn't stop people from using it. STRONG BOX ROLE CALL
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7610	Posted - 2014.12.26 00:17:00 - [46] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Quote: How to balance it in that range. You can't. This has been proven time and time again. Quote: Changing it to a ranged weapon only adds problems, it doesn't solve any, because we would have to completely strip away all the previous changes that were made to the weapon to refine it as it was designed in the first place. I don't see any point in grabbing a new sheet of paper when we've already erased and fixed the wobbly lines. the wobbly lines are still there, the damn thing resists balancing in CQC. Quote: Citing the Closed Beta HMG is also somewhat flawed because as I mentioned in a previous post the HMG was laser accurate Incorrect, the laser HMG was a product of UPRISING, not Closed Beta. In Uprising the Dispersion characteristic got knocked back to the laser beam. Quote: I don't see any logical or rational evidence provided as to why it should be a longer ranged weapon other than entitlement and anecdotal evidence. There are much more simple solutions that exist to finish fine-tuning the weapon into balance than throwing all of that away and starting that from scratch because a handful of people said "I'm right and no-one wants to admit it" or "I've been playing heavy longer". There is no more Evidence that it SHOULD be a CQC weapon than anecdote and opinion either. And without a drawback in CQC, adding range would be the idiot ball anyway, so quit cherry picking parts of peoples' ideas to point out why it's bad. Even though that's exactly what you're doing to support why it -shouldn't- be a CQC weapon..? Fair enough, if you're not going to budge on your opinion than neither will I. It's a CQC weapon. Deal with it. See, the difference here is I actually have an in-game current argument to support my opinion whereas you have hopes and dreams. We all know how well hopes and dreams work out in this game. But yanno feel free to continue saying it shouldn't be what it already is. Aeon's Links In an effort to be "positive" I will agree to everything CCP does.


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