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Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2318	Posted - 2014.12.23 11:29:00 - [1] - Quote So this is the third time I believe that heat has been nerfed on HMGs, and Heavy 514 is still going strong. I think it's time to admit that heat isn't the issue here. I believe I have found a few possible solutions (would like Fox Gaden to chime in.) So the HMG doesn't do damage through high shot damage. In fact, it has one of the lowest per-shot values of any weapon in the game (SMG does more damage per shot even!) The HMG is feared because of how fast it can shoot. It kills by volume of fire, not accuracy of fire. I believe the high DPS is a good thing, but the issue IMO is damage application. To put it simply, too many bullets are impacting a target from too great a distance. Now we could reduce the optimal range of the HMG, But I believe this is a draconian solution. It isn't exactly competing with the RR at range. So instead, let's tune its dispersion. The mechanic of it getting more accurate as you fire is interesting, so let's keep up that behavior. Now, let's simply reduce the amount of max accuracy gain. This means that each bullet still does full damage at a given range, but less bullets will be hitting you since the dispersion is increased, meaning lower DPS at range. Keep the accuracy gain mechanic, but reduce the amount of total accuracy it can gain. Another solution is to negatively affect its performance as it approaches the overheat threshold. Let's say once you get to 75% total heat, the ROF starts going down as the heat causes the weapon to malfunction. This happens with modern firearms as the heat expands the action, making the weapon fire slower since the bolt is being pinched by the expanded metal. So from 75% to 100% heat (100% heat is where you seize) your ROF begins to fall to say 50% of normal. This makes heat management more of an issue since high heat negatively affects your HMGs performance. I would undo the most recent nerf to heat should you take this route. Two possible solutions, or a combination thereof. Would like to hear Fox Gaden's thoughts on this. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken Going for the gold 459	Posted - 2014.12.23 15:00:00 - [2] - Quote Needs a damage reduction. That is all. I may not have a mic, but trust me, you NEED me in your squad if you want to win. When I'm on a roll, I'm unstoppable.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5932	Posted - 2014.12.23 15:14:00 - [3] - Quote Increasing dispersion on the HMG makes it easier to hit you consistently. 30m optimal is hilarious. The other option is to kick the HMG out of CQC. But queue the "HMG BELONGS IN CQC!" Crowd. They are about due any second now. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5560	Posted - 2014.12.23 15:42:00 - [4] - Quote Alena, your first solution is problematic. Increasing dispersion will shorten the range at which the HMG is effective while making it even easier to hit your target in close quarters. Since the current Heavy 514 meta is primarily a problem in confined spaces, this would exacerbate the problem by making HMG Sentinels stronger in close quarters where they are already too strong, while making them weaker in mid rang where they are already weak. I find your second proposal very interesting however. It puts reduced DPS on the back end, with a good explanation of the mechanics that cause it. It would reward player skill in heat management, while not penalizing the Spray & Prey crowd as drastically as a seize up. It still leaves the overheat seize up mechanic in place though for anyone who goes completely overboard. I would suggest: -At 75% heat the Rate of fire drops. -At 75% heat the dispersion increases, because the barrels are expanding slightly. -At 75% heat, due to the rate of fire dropping, the heat buildup drops too, so that the last 25% heat buildup takes a bit longer. With the heat reduction due to the rate of fire decreasing, the HMG would remain in this lower damage state longer before overheating. People who used HMG as a Spray & Prey weapon would spend a great deal of time in this lower damage state. While dedicated Sentinels would learn to control their heat in order to maintain higher on target DPS. It would be less frustrating than is initial rev up mechanic. It would also be add an additional element of player skill to the effective use of the weapon. Edit: Although hot barrels makes me think of increased desperation, it would probably be best to try it with only the reduced Rate of Fire, and reduced Heat to start, as adding a desperation change would be an additional variable which would make it more difficult to isolate the effect of the Rate of Fire change. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5935	Posted - 2014.12.23 16:52:00 - [5] - Quote second proposal is interesting, I agree with Fox. However, it would probably take as long to code that solution as it would my solution. Bluntly I wish CCP would at least TEST some of the ideas we have proposed at various points for utility. Jimmying the heat isn't the answer by itself. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2324	Posted - 2014.12.23 19:16:00 - [6] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Alena, your first solution is problematic. Increasing dispersion will shorten the range at which the HMG is effective while making it even easier to hit your target in close quarters. Since the current Heavy 514 meta is primarily a problem in confined spaces, this would exacerbate the problem by making HMG Sentinels stronger in close quarters where they are already too strong, while making them weaker in mid rang where they are already weak. I find your second proposal very interesting however. It puts reduced DPS on the back end, with a good explanation of the mechanics that cause it. It would reward player skill in heat management, while not penalizing the Spray & Prey crowd as drastically as a seize up. It still leaves the overheat seize up mechanic in place though for anyone who goes completely overboard. I would suggest: -At 75% heat the Rate of fire drops. -At 75% heat, due to the rate of fire dropping, the heat buildup drops too, so that the last 25% heat buildup takes a bit longer. With the heat reduction due to the rate of fire decreasing, the HMG would remain in this lower damage state longer before overheating. People who used HMG as a Spray & Prey weapon would spend a great deal of time in this lower damage state. While dedicated Sentinels would learn to control their heat in order to maintain higher on target DPS. It would be less frustrating than is initial rev up mechanic. It would also be add an additional element of player skill to the effective use of the weapon. Edit: I removed the suggestion I had for increasing dispersion at 75% heat as well. Although hot barrels makes me think of dispersion, it would be best to only change the variables of rate of fire and heat buildup at first so we can clearly see the effect, before considering adding another variable. There is also a malfunction called a runaway gun, where the heat buildup is so high that it sets off the ammo as it enters the chamber and the gun basically fires by itself until it runs out of ammo. This is also something we could do. As for reducing heat buildup on the tail end during the "malfunction stage" I would disagree on lowering heat buildup. The idea is to punish the heavy for letting heat build up, while being not as severe as a total seize up. In addition, I would decrease heat buildup across the board by 75%, giving skilled heavies who manage their heat more wiggle-room. In addition, the sound of the HMG slowing down could act as a warning to a heavy that he's about to overheat, allowing him to back off and cool down/switch to a sidearm. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5936	Posted - 2014.12.23 20:04:00 - [7] - Quote Runaway gun, AKA a "Casper" As in "A ghost is holding down the trigger." Runaway Guns would mean more if friendly fire is in place. For the unenlightened it means that the gun keeps firing until it jams or until it runs out of ammo regardless of the fact that you have released the trigger. It is not exactly a fun thing to have happen, especially when the confused dumbass behind the gun lets go of it instead of holding it down so it doesn't jump around and kill anyone nearby. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2324	Posted - 2014.12.23 20:29:00 - [8] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Runaway gun, AKA a "Casper" As in "A ghost is holding down the trigger." Runaway Guns would mean more if friendly fire is in place. For the unenlightened it means that the gun keeps firing until it jams or until it runs out of ammo regardless of the fact that you have released the trigger. It is not exactly a fun thing to have happen, especially when the confused dumbass behind the gun lets go of it instead of holding it down so it doesn't jump around and kill anyone nearby. Or when you have some boot that wants to drop the SAW during a training exercise when it decides to runaway on him mid-movement. You make a good point about friendly fire, but I feel like it is a solid idea to have the weapon begin to malfunction as it overheats. Fox made a good point about my first solution, although I still think it could help, but the second one is unique and could present some interesting scenarios; like an HMG whose about to overheat, his weapon screaming in protest as it begins to slow down from the excess friction of the expanding metal, and the heavy must make a snap decision whether to finish off his target and risk a full seize up, or back off and cool down while letting his target escape by the skin of his armor. Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5940	Posted - 2014.12.23 22:03:00 - [9] - Quote Runaway guns would be more meaningful at longer ranges honestly. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Her Chosen Grade No.2 157	Posted - 2014.12.23 22:26:00 - [10] - Quote Simple solution: Cut its range in half. Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced STRONG BOX ROLE CALL

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5942	Posted - 2014.12.23 22:43:00 - [11] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: Simple solution: Cut its range in half. Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced And you're still wrong. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2329	Posted - 2014.12.23 23:26:00 - [12] - Quote What ever happened to the HMG getting more accurate the long it was fired? Isn't the whole rig supposed to be mostly self-stabilizing gyros? Maybe make heat build up much slower until it is firing pinpoint accurate and then it spikes. Make the gyros not really kick in until you're 100+ rounds into dumping shells and have it be terribly inaccurate (which would be fine for CQC and not so much for distance shooting) until then. IDK, HMG isn't how I remember it being when I first got into it (as well as not being anything like I remember it being described to be back in beta). Granted, I am not an HMG oldhead, though I have started using it a lot more since we got our pissed off ogre suit. Dust514/Legion should be a(n): [_] Arcade Lobby Shooter [X] Sci-fi Military Sim
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3262	Posted - 2014.12.24 05:51:00 - [13] - Quote Spool time. "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Sequal's Back Les Desanusseurs 25	Posted - 2014.12.24 10:24:00 - [14] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Her Chosen wrote: Simple solution: Cut its range in half. Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced And you're still wrong. Perfectly right to me ^^ This and a charge up time could balance the HUGE dps of the weapon. I'd say 0.6s. Then it can fire from 1800RPM to 3000RPM until it overheats. At least it would require a bit of aiming, strategy, and heat management (that should be brought back to what it used to be pre 1.10.2 in this case).
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5945	Posted - 2014.12.24 11:38:00 - [15] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Her Chosen wrote: Simple solution: Cut its range in half. Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced And you're still wrong. Perfectly right to me ^^ This and a charge up time could balance the HUGE dps of the weapon. I'd say 0.6s. Then it can fire from 1800RPM to 3000RPM until it overheats. At least it would require a bit of aiming, strategy, and heat management (that should be brought back to what it used to be pre 1.10.2 in this case). Rattati said spool time is off the table. Reducing the range much more and you're in danger of the sentinel class swapping wholesale to shotguns mass drivers and rifles. It's not a solution. No one wants to admit that I'm right and sentinels need their asses booted from CQC but I'm right. CQC should be the domain of the armor brawling assault. Not the fatty fortress. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1198	Posted - 2014.12.24 12:03:00 - [16] - Quote +1 to the high heat = lower ROF idea. Sounds like a reasonable way to make HMGs more skill dependent. Could also introduce it earlier (ie, lower heat) with a lower penalty and build up as the heat does. So at 65% heat, you get a 5% ROF reduction and builds up to a 25% ROF reduction at 85% heat (or something, numbers are entirely spitballed.) Essentially a heat build-up version of damage fall off. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5949	Posted - 2014.12.24 12:10:00 - [17] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: +1 to the high heat = lower ROF idea. Sounds like a reasonable way to make HMGs more skill dependent. Could also introduce it earlier (ie, lower heat) with a lower penalty and build up as the heat does. So at 65% heat, you get a 5% ROF reduction and builds up to a 25% ROF reduction at 85% heat (or something, numbers are entirely spitballed.) Essentially a heat build-up version of damage fall off. while I agree this CAN work, it'll completely jack up the balance of the burst HMG, which I must admit rattati did beautiful work with. But with sustained fire weapons like the HMG and assault I honestly think that the better solution is to code the anti-infantry guns to cause a turn speed penalty (preferrably one that overrides mouse DPI input) so that the Point defense role changes to keeping the enemy AWAY from the point, rather than killing them when they're already there. If we made it so the Assault and Standard HMGs operated at longer range but were vulnerable to assaults and scouts in close I think we would see the Sentinel properly fall into a supporting role rather than the go-to suit for killing. Right now this is the problem because the way the gun is designed it's too potent in close, but nerfing it to rifle levels just... makes it bad. I think moving it out will change the game sharply. Define weapons that are meant for primary anti-infantry at range unwieldy and clunky in close combat (like the oft-used analogy of devastator squads being crap in CQC) and make the close range anti-infantry weapons balanced like the Burst. Powerful with clear drawbacks that REQUIRE high levels of aggression to succeed deploying as well as requiring a high level of discipline and control to keep from overextending and killing yourself. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5594	Posted - 2014.12.24 12:57:00 - [18] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: Simple solution: Cut its range in half. Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced Scouts can be successful with short ranged weapons because they are fast and stealthy. A Sentinel is neither. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5595	Posted - 2014.12.24 13:08:00 - [19] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: +1 to the high heat = lower ROF idea. Sounds like a reasonable way to make HMGs more skill dependent. Could also introduce it earlier (ie, lower heat) with a lower penalty and build up as the heat does. So at 65% heat, you get a 5% ROF reduction and builds up to a 25% ROF reduction at 85% heat (or something, numbers are entirely spitballed.) Essentially a heat build-up version of damage fall off. while I agree this CAN work, it'll completely jack up the balance of the burst HMG, which I must admit rattati did beautiful work with. But with sustained fire weapons like the HMG and assault I honestly think that the better solution is to code the anti-infantry guns to cause a turn speed penalty (preferrably one that overrides mouse DPI input) so that the Point defense role changes to keeping the enemy AWAY from the point, rather than killing them when they're already there. If we made it so the Assault and Standard HMGs operated at longer range but were vulnerable to assaults and scouts in close I think we would see the Sentinel properly fall into a supporting role rather than the go-to suit for killing. Right now this is the problem because the way the gun is designed it's too potent in close, but nerfing it to rifle levels just... makes it bad. I think moving it out will change the game sharply. Define weapons that are meant for primary anti-infantry at range unwieldy and clunky in close combat (like the oft-used analogy of devastator squads being crap in CQC) and make the close range anti-infantry weapons balanced like the Burst. Powerful with clear drawbacks that REQUIRE high levels of aggression to succeed deploying as well as requiring a high level of discipline and control to keep from overextending and killing yourself. I think we should focus on the base model HMG only. As Breakin says, the Burst is fairly well balanced as is. Also the Assault HMG has lower DPS which makes it less effective in CQC already. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 324	Posted - 2014.12.24 13:10:00 - [20] - Quote Nothing about heavies changed in the last few months besides a heat build-up nerf. Why the nerf threads now? Nothing better to nerf?

Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7582	Posted - 2014.12.24 13:16:00 - [21] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Alena, your first solution is problematic. Increasing dispersion will shorten the range at which the HMG is effective while making it even easier to hit your target in close quarters. Since the current Heavy 514 meta is primarily a problem in confined spaces, this would exacerbate the problem by making HMG Sentinels stronger in close quarters where they are already too strong, while making them weaker in mid rang where they are already weak. I find your second proposal very interesting however. It puts reduced DPS on the back end, with a good explanation of the mechanics that cause it. It would reward player skill in heat management, while not penalizing the Spray & Prey crowd as drastically as a seize up. It still leaves the overheat seize up mechanic in place though for anyone who goes completely overboard. I would suggest: -At 75% heat the Rate of fire drops. -At 75% heat, due to the rate of fire dropping, the heat buildup drops too, so that the last 25% heat buildup takes a bit longer. With the heat reduction due to the rate of fire decreasing, the HMG would remain in this lower damage state longer before overheating. People who used HMG as a Spray & Prey weapon would spend a great deal of time in this lower damage state. While dedicated Sentinels would learn to control their heat in order to maintain higher on target DPS. It would be less frustrating than is initial rev up mechanic. It would also be add an additional element of player skill to the effective use of the weapon. Edit: I removed the suggestion I had for increasing dispersion at 75% heat as well. Although hot barrels makes me think of dispersion, it would be best to only change the variables of rate of fire and heat buildup at first so we can clearly see the effect, before considering adding another variable. It's an interesting proposal. I kinda of like the RoF drop as high heat builds up but I dislike the HMG for a different reason. My issue with the HMG, personally, isn't that it doesn't overheat too quickly. It's that I die too quickly. Once a Heavy has his sights on you he only has to hit the trigger for maybe a second before you die if you're in a lighter suit (Min Assault) and two seconds for a heavier suit (Amarr Assault). That isn't enough time to react accordingly. If I'm walking up on a Heavy trying to do hit-and-run style mechanics, such being the signature of the Minmatar Assault and the only way you can really deal with an HMG Heavy, I have to consider a few factors: A) He has the same turn speed as anyone else. This means that I have to engage him, and disengage as soon as he starts turning because he will be facing me by the time I point myself in the direction I want to retreat to. B) Speed is nothing with a 30m optimal. If I round the corner going 8m/sec, it's going to take me 4 seconds until I'm out of his optimal range, longer to get out of killing distance. That gives him plenty of time to just turn the corner and start firing. C) Damage application is insanely high, meaning there is absolutely no room for mistakes. You don't get the option to make a split-second decision, the decision has to have been made prior to engagement. D) In some instances (particular in Gallente Research Facility sockets) there will not be any opportunity for hit-and-run, long range, or orbitals. This is where the Heavy thrives, which wouldn't be a problem if there were some other way to counter them once six of them are dug into the same spot. All this amounts to two things: 1) Heavies are far too mobile in their own sector, not providing enough opportunity to flank them. 2) Their damage application is so high that they have time to not only react to a flanking maneuver but also neutralize the threat and still survive. IMO, the Heavies got what they wanted back in 1.8. They wanted the "Irrefutable King of CQC" and that's exactly what they got, but the problem is that without a counter there is no reason to use anything else. Cloaky scouts did a good job but when the meta shifted to CQC, Cloaky Scouts and HMG Heavies were the only viable options for objective-based gameplay (I.E: Everything). The reason HMGs became so powerful is because: In 1.7 they received proper dispersion as they used to be Laser Rifle Accurate, not filling up their circle reticle. They also received a healthy RoF buff and they were amazingly well balanced. News of a 10% damage reduction in all weapons -except- the HMG dropped and many of us saw a glaring issue on the horizon. I've been of the volition that the HMG needed to receive the same damage reduction ever since. EDIT: Forgot to mention that they (Sentinels) received some hefty damage reduction as well. So while TTK dropped in all other weapons, the HMG stayed the same, while also receiving a TTK increase on the only suit that can use them. My proposed solutions are: Keep the damage, nerf the turn speed... or nerf the damage to allow for better reaction times while still being powerful for point defense. Aeon's Links I often sound negative because I ask questions no-one else will.
Sequal's Back Les Desanusseurs 25	Posted - 2014.12.24 13:21:00 - [22] - Quote Range is actually way too high and most of you guys don't want to admit it either. I'm not saying that the range should be down to the shotgun's one, but 20-25m should be the maximum range of such a powerful weapon. Cutting the range in half would actually put it down to 20-25m. This is NEEDED. Or half the damages. But I'm sure you don't want that so..
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 707	Posted - 2014.12.24 13:36:00 - [23] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: +1 to the high heat = lower ROF idea. Sounds like a reasonable way to make HMGs more skill dependent. Could also introduce it earlier (ie, lower heat) with a lower penalty and build up as the heat does. So at 65% heat, you get a 5% ROF reduction and builds up to a 25% ROF reduction at 85% heat (or something, numbers are entirely spitballed.) Essentially a heat build-up version of damage fall off. while I agree this CAN work, it'll completely jack up the balance of the burst HMG, which I must admit rattati did beautiful work with. But with sustained fire weapons like the HMG and assault I honestly think that the better solution is to code the anti-infantry guns to cause a turn speed penalty (preferrably one that overrides mouse DPI input) so that the Point defense role changes to keeping the enemy AWAY from the point, rather than killing them when they're already there. If we made it so the Assault and Standard HMGs operated at longer range but were vulnerable to assaults and scouts in close I think we would see the Sentinel properly fall into a supporting role rather than the go-to suit for killing. Right now this is the problem because the way the gun is designed it's too potent in close, but nerfing it to rifle levels just... makes it bad. I think moving it out will change the game sharply. Define weapons that are meant for primary anti-infantry at range unwieldy and clunky in close combat (like the oft-used analogy of devastator squads being crap in CQC) and make the close range anti-infantry weapons balanced like the Burst. Powerful with clear drawbacks that REQUIRE high levels of aggression to succeed deploying as well as requiring a high level of discipline and control to keep from overextending and killing yourself. I've noticed you have been pushing his idea for a long time and I got to say "I like it" I think this would be awesome but worry they won't do it cause it would change "everything" causing too much QQ Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2329	Posted - 2014.12.24 13:56:00 - [24] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Her Chosen wrote: Simple solution: Cut its range in half. Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced And you're still wrong. Perfectly right to me ^^ This and a charge up time could balance the HUGE dps of the weapon. I'd say 0.6s. Then it can fire from 1800RPM to 3000RPM until it overheats. At least it would require a bit of aiming, strategy, and heat management (that should be brought back to what it used to be pre 1.10.2 in this case). Rattati said spool time is off the table. Reducing the range much more and you're in danger of the sentinel class swapping wholesale to shotguns mass drivers and rifles. It's not a solution. No one wants to admit that I'm right and sentinels need their asses booted from CQC but I'm right. CQC should be the domain of the armor brawling assault. Not the fatty fortress. The more I play them, the more I am inclined to agree with you on that. It isn't that I think they shouldn't do well in CQC, though I do think that they need to be able to apply DPS at a longer range than they can reliably now. Which is why I posted what I did earlier in this thread. If the recoil was more pronounced in the aiming circle this would allow them to deal significant amounts of damage at close to mid range. If the recoil self-corrected after a short period, it would allow them to apply DPS more precisely and reliably at a longer range than current. The tradeoffs would be wait time (since they would need to dump 100+ shells before approaching precision), how ammo intensive this practice was and the spike in heat build once the barrels were self-correcting (thus not allowing them to apply sustained DPS at ~75m while still allowing them maintain some appreciable effect with practice). Dust514/Legion should be a(n): [_] Arcade Lobby Shooter [X] Sci-fi Military Sim
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7584	Posted - 2014.12.24 14:13:00 - [25] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Her Chosen wrote: Simple solution: Cut its range in half. Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced And you're still wrong. Perfectly right to me ^^ This and a charge up time could balance the HUGE dps of the weapon. I'd say 0.6s. Then it can fire from 1800RPM to 3000RPM until it overheats. At least it would require a bit of aiming, strategy, and heat management (that should be brought back to what it used to be pre 1.10.2 in this case). Rattati said spool time is off the table. Reducing the range much more and you're in danger of the sentinel class swapping wholesale to shotguns mass drivers and rifles. It's not a solution. No one wants to admit that I'm right and sentinels need their asses booted from CQC but I'm right. CQC should be the domain of the armor brawling assault. Not the fatty fortress. The more I play them, the more I am inclined to agree with you on that. It isn't that I think they shouldn't do well in CQC, though I do think that they need to be able to apply DPS at a longer range than they can reliably now. Which is why I posted what I did earlier in this thread. If the recoil was more pronounced in the aiming circle this would allow them to deal significant amounts of damage at close to mid range. If the recoil self-corrected after a short period, it would allow them to apply DPS more precisely and reliably at a longer range than current. The tradeoffs would be wait time (since they would need to dump 100+ shells before approaching precision), how ammo intensive this practice was and the spike in heat build once the barrels were self-correcting (thus not allowing them to apply sustained DPS at ~75m while still allowing them to maintain some appreciable effect with practice). Naaah.... Kain Spero put it best in that the HMG is the only anti-infantry weapon available to Heavies and thereby, their entire playstyle is defined by the one gun. In the eventuality that there ever are any more heavy weapon, completely and drastically changing how the HMG performs is a bad option when we're so close to having it balanced just the way it is. IMO, we should wait before seriously considering using a hacksaw when we've been working so hard with a scalpel. Aeon's Links I often sound negative because I ask questions no-one else will.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5953	Posted - 2014.12.24 14:18:00 - [26] - Quote the scalpel is failing to do the job. It's time for the hacksaw. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 2751	Posted - 2014.12.24 15:05:00 - [27] - Quote The HMG only has one problem. Aim assist. Same as the shotgun. You have these giant generalized circles to aim with... Use them. You don't NEED a pinpoint aiming system that helps you land bullets with these weapons. Heavies NEED the health pool they have. they NEED the resistances they have. The HMG doesn't NEED Aim assist.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5953	Posted - 2014.12.24 15:07:00 - [28] - Quote Bethhy wrote: The HMG only has one problem. Aim assist. Same as the shotgun. You have these giant generalized circles to aim with... Use them. You don't NEED a pinpoint aiming system that helps you land bullets with these weapons. Heavies NEED the health pool they have. they NEED the resistances they have. The HMG doesn't NEED Aim assist. What in the rippling, never-ending hell are you getting on about? No one here is complaining that the HMG is underpowered. No. One. If anything we're in agreement that it's overperforming. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2329	Posted - 2014.12.24 16:12:00 - [29] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: The more I play them, the more I am inclined to agree with you on that. It isn't that I think they shouldn't do well in CQC, though I do think that they need to be able to apply DPS at a longer range than they can reliably now. Which is why I posted what I did earlier in this thread. If the recoil was more pronounced in the aiming circle this would allow them to deal significant amounts of damage at close to mid range. If the recoil self-corrected after a short period, it would allow them to apply DPS more precisely and reliably at a longer range than current. The tradeoffs would be wait time (since they would need to dump 100+ shells before approaching precision), how ammo intensive this practice was and the spike in heat build once the barrels were self-correcting (thus not allowing them to apply sustained DPS at ~75m while still allowing them to maintain some appreciable effect with practice). Naaah.... Kain Spero put it best in that the HMG is the only anti-infantry weapon available to Heavies and thereby, their entire playstyle is defined by the one gun. In the eventuality that there ever are any more heavy weapon, completely and drastically changing how the HMG performs is a bad option when we're so close to having it balanced just the way it is. IMO, we should wait before seriously considering using a hacksaw when we've been working so hard with a scalpel. I don't see the idea that I have proposed as being a hacksaw, I see it as returning to the original design in a way that is workable rather than the neutered way it currently is (neutered in comparison to how it was sold to us in Closed Beta). IMHO, they are drastically OP in some regards and drastically UP in others, I'd like to see them brought more into balance and functional in more ways than just "Put me on a G-series Sentinel and watch me destroy everything within 15m" Dust514/Legion should be a(n): [_] Arcade Lobby Shooter [X] Sci-fi Military Sim
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5597	Posted - 2014.12.24 16:36:00 - [30] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing about heavies changed in the last few months besides a heat build-up nerf. Why the nerf threads now? Nothing better to nerf? Strongboxes could only distract the QQ'ers for so long. A nerf is coming. It is important the the Sentinel community is involved in figuring out what that nerf will be. Go ask the ADS pilots what happens when you stick your head in the sand. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.



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