DUST Search - To Rattati: HMG balance.

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

+1 to the high heat = lower ROF idea. Sounds like a reasonable way to make HMGs more skill dependent.

Could also introduce it earlier (ie, lower heat) with a lower penalty and build up as the heat does. So at 65% heat, you get a 5% ROF reduction and builds up to a 25% ROF reduction at 85% heat (or something, numbers are entirely spitballed.) Essentially a heat build-up version of damage fall off.

while I agree this CAN work, it'll completely jack up the balance of the burst HMG, which I must admit rattati did beautiful work with. But with sustained fire weapons like the HMG and assault I honestly think that the better solution is to code the anti-infantry guns to cause a turn speed penalty (preferrably one that overrides mouse DPI input) so that the Point defense role changes to keeping the enemy AWAY from the point, rather than killing them when they're already there.

If we made it so the Assault and Standard HMGs operated at longer range but were vulnerable to assaults and scouts in close I think we would see the Sentinel properly fall into a supporting role rather than the go-to suit for killing. Right now this is the problem because the way the gun is designed it's too potent in close, but nerfing it to rifle levels just... makes it bad.

I think moving it out will change the game sharply. Define weapons that are meant for primary anti-infantry at range unwieldy and clunky in close combat (like the oft-used analogy of devastator squads being crap in CQC) and make the close range anti-infantry weapons balanced like the Burst. Powerful with clear drawbacks that REQUIRE high levels of aggression to succeed deploying as well as requiring a high level of discipline and control to keep from overextending and killing yourself.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.


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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5560	Posted - 2014.12.23 15:42:00 - [1] - Quote Alena, your first solution is problematic. Increasing dispersion will shorten the range at which the HMG is effective while making it even easier to hit your target in close quarters. Since the current Heavy 514 meta is primarily a problem in confined spaces, this would exacerbate the problem by making HMG Sentinels stronger in close quarters where they are already too strong, while making them weaker in mid rang where they are already weak. I find your second proposal very interesting however. It puts reduced DPS on the back end, with a good explanation of the mechanics that cause it. It would reward player skill in heat management, while not penalizing the Spray & Prey crowd as drastically as a seize up. It still leaves the overheat seize up mechanic in place though for anyone who goes completely overboard. I would suggest: -At 75% heat the Rate of fire drops. -At 75% heat the dispersion increases, because the barrels are expanding slightly. -At 75% heat, due to the rate of fire dropping, the heat buildup drops too, so that the last 25% heat buildup takes a bit longer. With the heat reduction due to the rate of fire decreasing, the HMG would remain in this lower damage state longer before overheating. People who used HMG as a Spray & Prey weapon would spend a great deal of time in this lower damage state. While dedicated Sentinels would learn to control their heat in order to maintain higher on target DPS. It would be less frustrating than is initial rev up mechanic. It would also be add an additional element of player skill to the effective use of the weapon. Edit: Although hot barrels makes me think of increased desperation, it would probably be best to try it with only the reduced Rate of Fire, and reduced Heat to start, as adding a desperation change would be an additional variable which would make it more difficult to isolate the effect of the Rate of Fire change. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5594	Posted - 2014.12.24 12:57:00 - [2] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: Simple solution: Cut its range in half. Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced Scouts can be successful with short ranged weapons because they are fast and stealthy. A Sentinel is neither. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5595	Posted - 2014.12.24 13:08:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: +1 to the high heat = lower ROF idea. Sounds like a reasonable way to make HMGs more skill dependent. Could also introduce it earlier (ie, lower heat) with a lower penalty and build up as the heat does. So at 65% heat, you get a 5% ROF reduction and builds up to a 25% ROF reduction at 85% heat (or something, numbers are entirely spitballed.) Essentially a heat build-up version of damage fall off. while I agree this CAN work, it'll completely jack up the balance of the burst HMG, which I must admit rattati did beautiful work with. But with sustained fire weapons like the HMG and assault I honestly think that the better solution is to code the anti-infantry guns to cause a turn speed penalty (preferrably one that overrides mouse DPI input) so that the Point defense role changes to keeping the enemy AWAY from the point, rather than killing them when they're already there. If we made it so the Assault and Standard HMGs operated at longer range but were vulnerable to assaults and scouts in close I think we would see the Sentinel properly fall into a supporting role rather than the go-to suit for killing. Right now this is the problem because the way the gun is designed it's too potent in close, but nerfing it to rifle levels just... makes it bad. I think moving it out will change the game sharply. Define weapons that are meant for primary anti-infantry at range unwieldy and clunky in close combat (like the oft-used analogy of devastator squads being crap in CQC) and make the close range anti-infantry weapons balanced like the Burst. Powerful with clear drawbacks that REQUIRE high levels of aggression to succeed deploying as well as requiring a high level of discipline and control to keep from overextending and killing yourself. I think we should focus on the base model HMG only. As Breakin says, the Burst is fairly well balanced as is. Also the Assault HMG has lower DPS which makes it less effective in CQC already. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5597	Posted - 2014.12.24 16:36:00 - [4] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Nothing about heavies changed in the last few months besides a heat build-up nerf. Why the nerf threads now? Nothing better to nerf? Strongboxes could only distract the QQ'ers for so long. A nerf is coming. It is important the the Sentinel community is involved in figuring out what that nerf will be. Go ask the ADS pilots what happens when you stick your head in the sand. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5600	Posted - 2014.12.24 16:50:00 - [5] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Range is actually way too high and most of you guys don't want to admit it either. I'm not saying that the range should be down to the shotgun's one, but 20-25m should be the maximum range of such a powerful weapon. Cutting the range in half would actually put it down to 20-25m. This is NEEDED. Or half the damages. But I'm sure you don't want that so.. The HMG is already nearly down to half the damage beyond 25m. What are you talking about? Did you look at the range stats for the HMG and think those actually meant anything? Range on the HMG is 100% dictated by dispersion. You can't kill anyone even close to the supposed max range of the HMG on paper. You could give the HMG a 1000m range, and it would not change anything. You still would not do damage beyond 40m and you would not be able to solo someone beyond 30m. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.