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[Request]How Swarms should work

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Grimmiers 749	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:34:00 - [1] - Quote Make it have a clip size of 4 Each missile has it's own lock on time. Make the missiles less accurate if all 4 are launched at once. This means if they miss a vehicle they won't continuously spin around it until it gets a hit. You need a state where the missile loses it's lock and flies off course. Why? Having a 12 missiles that lock on doing up to 5500 damage before you have to reload is pretty messed up for a light weapon. You reload 3 more volleys when the plasma cannon only loads 1 shot that has a good chance to miss, and can't lock on at 150m and travel 400m. It could even have a faster lock on time with this change with the choice of firing a series of single missiles, or doing a burst of 4 at once at the cost of less accuracy. First option would be good for dropships and the second for tanks and anywhere inbetween for lavs.
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14540	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:36:00 - [2] - Quote The fun part about idiotic ideas is that I don't need to argue against them, as they won't be implemented. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5461	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:41:00 - [3] - Quote Atiim wrote: The fun part about idiotic ideas is that I don't need to argue against them, as they won't be implemented. Well the part about the longer you hold the lock the more more missiles are fired is sort of interesting, even if his understanding of what he is talking about is a little off base. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Grimmiers 749	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:46:00 - [4] - Quote Atiim wrote: The fun part about idiotic ideas is that I don't need to argue against them, as they won't be implemented. What's so idiotic about it?
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1141	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:47:00 - [5] - Quote He does have a valid point: Swarms never lose their lock,and that removes skill from the equation. I can never evade a missile in my DS unless I'm hovering right next to a building and even that is not reliable (for some unknown reason.) Having some way to 'dodge' a missile and cause it to lose lock, with a possibility to reacquire, would be good. Unlikely to happen, because lolAV... Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 20291	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:54:00 - [6] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: Atiim wrote: The fun part about idiotic ideas is that I don't need to argue against them, as they won't be implemented. What's so idiotic about it? It won't make swarms hideously OP, therefore it appears idiotic to some people. Sometimes, one just has an overwhelming urge to throw a potato at someone.
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 258	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:58:00 - [7] - Quote 1. Swarms should require a laser tag i think, which means you have to keep lock on to guide the missiles instead, if laser is broken you have 5 seconds to regain lock or the missiles blow 2. SL should not be able to lock onto targets through cover or terrain 3. SL should not be able to look in a different direction and keep lock on ie you can lock on, look up and fire - It should lose lock after you look up 4. SL missiles should not be able to do a 270deg spin on the spot and instantly move again at top speed 5. SL should not be able to lock on to targets which are not inside its lock box 6. SL user should not be allowed to jump while using the weapon 7. Crash Bandicoots Wumpa launcher requires more aim than the SL currently
XxBlazikenxX Y.A.M.A.H 0	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:00:00 - [8] - Quote I think swarms right now are pretty good, if you are a good pilot are a good driver, you don't need to worry much about a swarmer (unless there's more than one of them), but if you're stuck in a corner it's a matter of killing the guy before he kills you. What we really should be talking about is how to bring back forge guns, am I the only who's noticed that forge gunners are now virtually non-existent? How to stop a q-syncing team of 16 Fatal Absolutionists in FW: Step 1: Oh wait you're screwed
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1145	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:03:00 - [9] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: I think swarms right now are pretty good, if you are a good pilot are a good driver, you don't need to worry much about a swarmer (unless there's more than one of them), but if you're stuck in a corner it's a matter of killing the guy before he kills you. What we really should be talking about is how to bring back forge guns, am I the only who's noticed that forge gunners are now virtually non-existent? Why FGs are rare: because Swarms are vastly less difficult to operate and equally effective. Solution: make Swarma require effort to use such that they are no longer ridiculously easy point and click WP hoses. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
XxBlazikenxX Y.A.M.A.H 0	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:11:00 - [10] - Quote I see your point but you swarms are already balanced against vehicles, so the solution isn't to nerf swarms, it's to buff FGs How to stop a q-syncing team of 16 Fatal Absolutionists in FW: Step 1: Oh wait you're screwed

Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 476	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:15:00 - [11] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Grimmiers wrote: Atiim wrote: The fun part about idiotic ideas is that I don't need to argue against them, as they won't be implemented. What's so idiotic about it? It won't make swarms hideously OP, therefore it appears idiotic to some people. Lets look at the name shall we? SWARM Launchers. Meaning they have to fire in SWARMS and not one at a time while if you choose to shoot the SWARM of missiles you will loose track. Swarms only work against vehicles. So yeah, they should be the greatest thing at AV because that is its only functionality. And many of vehicle users seem to forget that we only have STD hull vehicles. Swarms have proto. So yeah, expect a proto swarm to put a dent in your STD vehicle. We should keep AV vs V like it is now until the proto tanks arrive. Then the real dicussion will start. PS: I am also a tanker and ADS pilot. Side effects of playing Dust: Emotional trauma, Anger Management issues, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and Depression
La Lore Sleipnier Grupo de Asalto Chacal RISE of LEGION 255	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:16:00 - [12] - Quote Grimmier i love your idea Soy una hoja al viento a merced de los elementos...
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5467	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:17:00 - [13] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: He does have a valid point: Swarms never lose their lock,and that removes skill from the equation. I can never evade a missile in my DS unless I'm hovering right next to a building and even that is not reliable (for some unknown reason.) Having some way to 'dodge' a missile and cause it to lose lock, with a possibility to reacquire, would be good. Unlikely to happen, because lolAV... Actually if there was some player skill based way of causing Swarms to lose lock during flight, that would be an interesting AV dynamic. It would have to rely on good timing or some other player skill based action though. Maybe a disruptive pules with a 50m range and a reasonably long recharge time, that would disrupt the lock on any missile inside of the 50m range. The pilot would have to time the pules for when the missiles are close enough. Of course this would require that the pilot actually know when the missiles are getting close. If the rendering issue can't be solved, maybe add a beep in the Pilot's HUD when there is an enemy Swarm Missile in the air, and have the beeping get faster as the missile gets closer. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
XxBlazikenxX Y.A.M.A.H 1	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:29:00 - [14] - Quote OMG, Fox is here! *Proceeds to put hand on head and faints How to stop a q-syncing team of 16 Fatal Absolutionists in FW: Step 1: Oh wait you're screwed
Grimmiers 752	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:36:00 - [15] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Actually if there was some player skill based way of causing Swarms to lose lock during flight, that would be an interesting AV dynamic. It would have to rely on good timing or some other player skill based action though. Perhaps an active profile dampener for vehicles? Then we can make our own black ops vehicles; if only our headlights weren't always on.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2577	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:42:00 - [16] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: I think swarms right now are pretty good, if you are a good pilot are a good driver, you don't need to worry much about a swarmer (unless there's more than one of them), but if you're stuck in a corner it's a matter of killing the guy before he kills you. What we really should be talking about is how to bring back forge guns, am I the only who's noticed that forge gunners are now virtually non-existent? lol ok You obviously don't know what it's like in a tank. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4027	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:50:00 - [17] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Actually if there was some player skill based way of causing Swarms to lose lock during flight, that would be an interesting AV dynamic. It would have to rely on good timing or some other player skill based action though. Perhaps an active profile dampener for vehicles? Then we can make our own black ops vehicles; if only our headlights weren't always on. ECM Burst is what you're looking for. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Vesta Opalus Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 256	Posted - 2014.12.17 19:45:00 - [18] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: I think swarms right now are pretty good, if you are a good pilot are a good driver, you don't need to worry much about a swarmer (unless there's more than one of them), but if you're stuck in a corner it's a matter of killing the guy before he kills you. What we really should be talking about is how to bring back forge guns, am I the only who's noticed that forge gunners are now virtually non-existent? I see forge gunners all the time, about equal to swarms as far as I can tell. Im sure ccp has data on it though thats more accurate than either of our anecdotal experiences.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16051	Posted - 2014.12.17 20:35:00 - [19] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: Make it have a clip size of 4 Each missile has it's own lock on time and consumes 1 shot of the clip. Make the missiles less accurate if all 4 are launched at once. This means if they miss a vehicle they won't continuously spin around it until it gets a hit. You need a state where the missile loses it's lock and flies off course. Why? Having a 12 missiles that lock on doing up to 5500 damage before you have to reload is pretty messed up for a light weapon. You reload 3 more volleys when the plasma cannon only loads 1 shot that has a good chance to miss, and can't lock on at 150m and travel 400m. It could even have a faster lock on time with this change with the choice of firing a series of single missiles, or doing a burst of 4 at once at the cost of less accuracy. First option would be good for dropships and the second for ground vehicles. Examples of missiles in EVE are Alpha weapons...... *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16051	Posted - 2014.12.17 20:37:00 - [20] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: I think swarms right now are pretty good, if you are a good pilot are a good driver, you don't need to worry much about a swarmer (unless there's more than one of them), but if you're stuck in a corner it's a matter of killing the guy before he kills you. What we really should be talking about is how to bring back forge guns, am I the only who's noticed that forge gunners are now virtually non-existent? lol ok You obviously don't know what it's like in a tank. In Shield HAV you can ignore swarms...... In Armour HAV you have no chance. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.

Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 161	Posted - 2014.12.17 22:16:00 - [21] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Swarms should require a laser tag i think, which means you have to keep lock on to guide the missiles instead, if laser is broken you have 5 seconds to regain lock or the missiles blow 2. SL should not be able to lock onto targets through cover or terrain 3. SL should not be able to look in a different direction and keep lock on ie you can lock on, look up and fire - It should lose lock after you look up 4. SL missiles should not be able to do a 270deg spin on the spot and instantly move again at top speed 5. SL should not be able to lock on to targets which are not inside its lock box 6. SL user should not be allowed to jump while using the weapon 7. Crash Bandicoots Wumpa launcher requires more aim than the SL currently Its i interisting list but 1 how long would the lazer go? 400m? or the lock on range of 175? or some where in between? 2 its not that they lock on through terrian, its that the box dosent fully cover said grahpic i ahve seen may weapons shoot hills boxes, i have even seen tanks shoot through railings and swarms cant lock on through the gaps of the railing even though i can see the tank fully. 3 you loose lock after 1 second if not fired. 4 missiles do the circle of doom when a swamrer is close to a vehicle its annoying becaue at least 2 of the missiles will hit and the other 2 just explode randomly 5 i have never seen anything lock on that wasnt in a lock box that wasnt in range 6 why not? well what if tanks wernt allowed to shoot while moving? or at 1/2 armor, tanks are reduced to 1/2 base speed and injectors are off line 7 i guess but i think there crash got fined by osha or someting There is one thing that i have noticed that no one seems to point out proto AV=/= Tank hull Proto Av = Proto turret though comparing proto AV to a tank hull makes no sense its like saying there is no Proto AVsuit so nerf all tank turrets its amusing how some tankers are complaining about how AV players are demanding a nerf to tanks when all ive seen are tankers sayin that AV need the nerf. NO i dont tank alot and yes i do pilot DS and ADS and when i do get shot down it because i was being a terrible pilot other than that its usualy because the myron and python cant touch anything with out loosing most of its shield but the incubus and grimeses can slam into the MCC and not loose any thing The Little Girl with the HMG
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5473	Posted - 2014.12.18 00:29:00 - [22] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Grimmiers wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Actually if there was some player skill based way of causing Swarms to lose lock during flight, that would be an interesting AV dynamic. It would have to rely on good timing or some other player skill based action though. Perhaps an active profile dampener for vehicles? Then we can make our own black ops vehicles; if only our headlights weren't always on. ECM Burst is what you're looking for. Only reason I did not call it that was that ECM Burst suggests it would also take out Uplinks, and something that could take out every Uplink within a 50m radius would be OP. So, better if it is just a signal that throws off the targeting lock. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7480	Posted - 2014.12.18 08:34:00 - [23] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: I think swarms right now are pretty good, if you are a good pilot are a good driver, you don't need to worry much about a swarmer (unless there's more than one of them), but if you're stuck in a corner it's a matter of killing the guy before he kills you. What we really should be talking about is how to bring back forge guns, am I the only who's noticed that forge gunners are now virtually non-existent? lol ok You obviously don't know what it's like in a tank. In Shield HAV you can ignore swarms...... In Armour HAV you have no chance. For real. Those dual hardeners are damn near invincible. Long-Term Roadmap More Hard Questions
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5833	Posted - 2014.12.18 10:40:00 - [24] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Swarms should require a laser tag i think, which means you have to keep lock on to guide the missiles instead, if laser is broken you have 5 seconds to regain lock or the missiles blow 2. SL should not be able to lock onto targets through cover or terrain 3. SL should not be able to look in a different direction and keep lock on ie you can lock on, look up and fire - It should lose lock after you look up 4. SL missiles should not be able to do a 270deg spin on the spot and instantly move again at top speed 5. SL should not be able to lock on to targets which are not inside its lock box 6. SL user should not be allowed to jump while using the weapon Oddly enough I agree with this post on all points. I have never fired the wumpa launcher so I cannot comment on that. This post is remarkably in line with how I have suggested that the swarm launcher operate in the past. Getting a lock through a hill is particularly stupid. May I add that swarms should actually beeline toward the target rather than match it's trajectory so that putting a wall between you and the missiles becomes valid tactic? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1421	Posted - 2014.12.18 12:21:00 - [25] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Grimmiers wrote: Atiim wrote: The fun part about idiotic ideas is that I don't need to argue against them, as they won't be implemented. What's so idiotic about it? It won't make swarms hideously OP, therefore it appears idiotic to some people. looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool get served Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1150	Posted - 2014.12.18 12:40:00 - [26] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: For real. Those dual hardeners are damn near invincible. It's almost as if a weapon designed to destroy armour that's weak against shields suffers immensely when someone fits two limited duration modules and then runs them simultaneously! It would be crazy to think that an armour biased weapon should be like a wet noodle against fully tanked shields [Not that I think you were complaining necessarily, but that kind of thinking seems to be endemic to the forums.] Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 261	Posted - 2014.12.18 15:47:00 - [27] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Swarms should require a laser tag i think, which means you have to keep lock on to guide the missiles instead, if laser is broken you have 5 seconds to regain lock or the missiles blow 2. SL should not be able to lock onto targets through cover or terrain 3. SL should not be able to look in a different direction and keep lock on ie you can lock on, look up and fire - It should lose lock after you look up 4. SL missiles should not be able to do a 270deg spin on the spot and instantly move again at top speed 5. SL should not be able to lock on to targets which are not inside its lock box 6. SL user should not be allowed to jump while using the weapon 7. Crash Bandicoots Wumpa launcher requires more aim than the SL currently Its i interisting list but 1 how long would the lazer go? 400m? or the lock on range of 175? or some where in between? 2 its not that they lock on through terrian, its that the box dosent fully cover said grahpic i ahve seen may weapons shoot hills boxes, i have even seen tanks shoot through railings and swarms cant lock on through the gaps of the railing even though i can see the tank fully. 3 you loose lock after 1 second if not fired. 4 missiles do the circle of doom when a swamrer is close to a vehicle its annoying becaue at least 2 of the missiles will hit and the other 2 just explode randomly 5 i have never seen anything lock on that wasnt in a lock box that wasnt in range 6 why not? well what if tanks wernt allowed to shoot while moving? or at 1/2 armor, tanks are reduced to 1/2 base speed and injectors are off line 7 i guess but i think there crash got fined by osha or someting There is one thing that i have noticed that no one seems to point out proto AV=/= Tank hull Proto Av = Proto turret though comparing proto AV to a tank hull makes no sense its like saying there is no Proto AVsuit so nerf all tank turrets its amusing how some tankers are complaining about how AV players are demanding a nerf to tanks when all ive seen are tankers sayin that AV need the nerf. NO i dont tank alot and yes i do pilot DS and ADS and when i do get shot down it because i was being a terrible pilot other than that its usualy because the myron and python cant touch anything with out loosing most of its shield but the incubus and grimeses can slam into the MCC and not loose any thing 1. With laser tagging it could be upto 400m but the problem is keeping the lock but with current scale of the maps 400m is in Domination is the majority of the map and same again with Skirmish 2. In my experience i can lock on aslong as the box is there to lock on to 3. Enough time to look up and fire, you should lose lock automatically if you look away from your target 4. Missiles shouldnt do that anyways 5. Its defo a bug but can be used to the SL users advantage 6. HAVs are made to fire while on the move but you dont see ISIS jump up and down when firing an RPG at something 7. I stopped after Crash 3, they actually made 6 or 7 in total 8. Its been said before - Basic hull plus PROTO modules and turrets but sometimes you cannot fit all proto on yet on the vast majority of my infantry suits i can have PROTO everything - Generally opponents will say 'Tiercide' but notice how the vast majority of infantry do not want tiercide for infantry but want it for vehicles - Either its tiercide for all or pilots get adv/proto vehicles
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 420	Posted - 2014.12.18 16:40:00 - [28] - Quote The SL needs to be left allone, for a simple reason. It's the only valid infantry medium range weapon for light frames. It's pretty strong against armour, and it's pretty weak against shields. Until we have a light anti shield weapon, that does similar damage in similar ranges, the SL is fine as is. It's not perfect, but we can't balance it without a anti shield alternative. The PLC is no such alternative, since it's too situational. The other thing is the upcoming changes with proto vehicles coming back. These will leave infantry in the dust again, if there is no counter to them, that can be easily fielded. Finally, the lock on vehicles, is broken fast if you go for cover, this means, that you have to fly low, instead of high, to evade swarms, and it means you are dead, if your tank gets stuck in the terrain. If this is your problem as a vehicle guy, you might go back to driving school. The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now.
Grimmiers 752	Posted - 2014.12.18 17:02:00 - [29] - Quote @Mad Syringe The new vehicle variants coming out are not proto. I get what you're saying, but the problem with vehicles right now are how broken regen is. There's the shields repairing through damage because each missile didn't break the threshold. The shield regen needs to stop if the damaged received in 1 second is above the threshold. Then there's armor tanks which should only be able to do what their currently doing with a repair logi. Warpoint repair and maybe even a module/plate that boost remote repair rates would make armor rep tanking more interesting. Passive reps should only be viable on things fast enough to get away, not something you can use to stand and deliver. If vehicle based ttk was ironed out alpha type av wouldn't be the only viable option.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1155	Posted - 2014.12.18 17:03:00 - [30] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The other thing is the upcoming changes with proto vehicles coming back. These will leave infantry in the dust again, if there is no counter to them, that can be easily fielded. PRO vehicles aren't coming back. If you paid any attention to the feedback thread Rattati put up, the intention is for Marauders/Enforcers to be side grades, not higher tiers such that your statement is essentially void. Mad Syringe wrote: Finally, the lock on vehicles, is broken fast if you go for cover, this means, that you have to fly low, instead of high, to evade swarms, and it means you are dead, if your tank gets stuck in the terrain. If this is your problem as a vehicle guy, you might go back to driving school. For HAVs this is almost good advice, but for dropships it's dumb advice. Flying close to buildings is almost a death sentence because swarms don't obey physics: anecdotally, I have been using a building for cover to pop up-shoot-drop down but the enemy swarms just loop up and over the building. Being near a building carries the very extant risk of being slammed into it, which will often either just kill you outright or magnetise you to it, making you dead meat for the swarmer. Frankly, swarms are so easy to operate and the only way for a DS to evade is to just run immediately before they can fire the fourth volley. A DS can survive a full clip of swarms, but it requires certain fits and still relies on an immediate neutralisation of the Swarmer or else you're forced to flee. Mad Syringe wrote: The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now. Or, y'know, they have the coordinated support of a full team and that PC battles are entirely different boxes of frogs. Simply, swarms are more effective than a forge gun because of the ease of operation and near perfect application of damage. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.

Django UN-AIMED State In Control Top Men. 5	Posted - 2014.12.18 17:42:00 - [31] - Quote my two pennies... let's break things down a bit, logically... and of course, I'm not the end-all be-all say-so on zeh swarms... swarms are AV exclusive... besides the commando, you equip a suit with swarms, expect to be shot from far away, by infantry... ...this is fine. the plaz can, however, isn't restricted to AV, in fact.. a few scouts have melted my face off @ point blank with a plaz.. (kudos to them... they tasted a single blade, nice trade.) that being said.. swarms are its own niche... for your team, you're sacrificing a light weapon spot, in hopes of taking out a vehicle... once you fire said weapon, everyone hears it... and a trail back to you is present... more sacrifice, more dependency on infantry for protection... from the OP's ideas, what I picked out that was nice: the variable shot... it would be nice to have a quicker lock sequence, in favor of less missles fired, for those instances where the tank is chopping ya down after spawning in... and you just wanna hit back, lol... otherwise, I think the swarms as they are now, are peachy keen... ..for the lulz and for the Win.
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 263	Posted - 2014.12.18 17:51:00 - [32] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Swarms should require a laser tag i think, which means you have to keep lock on to guide the missiles instead, if laser is broken you have 5 seconds to regain lock or the missiles blow 2. SL should not be able to lock onto targets through cover or terrain 3. SL should not be able to look in a different direction and keep lock on ie you can lock on, look up and fire - It should lose lock after you look up 4. SL missiles should not be able to do a 270deg spin on the spot and instantly move again at top speed 5. SL should not be able to lock on to targets which are not inside its lock box 6. SL user should not be allowed to jump while using the weapon Oddly enough I agree with this post on all points. I have never fired the wumpa launcher so I cannot comment on that. This post is remarkably in line with how I have suggested that the swarm launcher operate in the past. Getting a lock through a hill is particularly stupid. May I add that swarms should actually beeline toward the target rather than match it's trajectory so that putting a wall between you and the missiles becomes valid tactic? 1. Current trajectory is follow where the target used to be when 1st locked on then join the dots which can lead around corners and cover if target moves - If swarms head straight for target then need to constantly move to adjust trajectory if target moves say to the left so they can follow the straightest path - No reason why it shouldnt work
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5851	Posted - 2014.12.18 18:18:00 - [33] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Swarms should require a laser tag i think, which means you have to keep lock on to guide the missiles instead, if laser is broken you have 5 seconds to regain lock or the missiles blow 2. SL should not be able to lock onto targets through cover or terrain 3. SL should not be able to look in a different direction and keep lock on ie you can lock on, look up and fire - It should lose lock after you look up 4. SL missiles should not be able to do a 270deg spin on the spot and instantly move again at top speed 5. SL should not be able to lock on to targets which are not inside its lock box 6. SL user should not be allowed to jump while using the weapon Oddly enough I agree with this post on all points. I have never fired the wumpa launcher so I cannot comment on that. This post is remarkably in line with how I have suggested that the swarm launcher operate in the past. Getting a lock through a hill is particularly stupid. May I add that swarms should actually beeline toward the target rather than match it's trajectory so that putting a wall between you and the missiles becomes valid tactic? 1. Current trajectory is follow where the target used to be when 1st locked on then join the dots which can lead around corners and cover if target moves - If swarms head straight for target then need to constantly move to adjust trajectory if target moves say to the left so they can follow the straightest path - No reason why it shouldnt work that's what I meant when I said "following the trajectory" it's a really bad mechanic and precludes the dodge behind buildings defense. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Vesta Opalus Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 261	Posted - 2014.12.18 19:04:00 - [34] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Simply, swarms are more effective than a forge gun because of the ease of operation and near perfect application of damage. Wut? Its much easier to apply forge damage than swarms. Swarm travel time sucks and they tend to hit stuff if the target moves behind anything or just not hit anything at all if the target outranges them. But yes if your aim sucks Im sure swarms are way better, but thats not the forge gun's fault.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 3206	Posted - 2014.12.18 19:06:00 - [35] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now. Hate to sound like a pompous ass, but I'm one of the top ADS pilots in the game, and I complain about swarms all the time. It's the only AV weapon in the game I can count on seeing at least one of in any given match. I even saw a swarmer in an ambush. The amount of thought that goes into this weapon, and the freedom of movement you have with it is pathetically easy. The swarm is literally the only infantry AV weapon that allows you to lock on bunny hop while locking strafe effectively while locking achieve a lock while outside the lock box have shots that are guided for you All at the price of a little less damage that would never have mattered in an ADS vs AV fight. The part that pisses me off the most is that the only move I know of that can effectively outrun a swarm is something only a master would be able to pull off, while a swarm only has to maintain a lock for 1.05 seconds and let go. 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Oh yeah?! Well, I love redheads.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 423	Posted - 2014.12.18 19:12:00 - [36] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Finally, the lock on vehicles, is broken fast if you go for cover, this means, that you have to fly low, instead of high, to evade swarms, and it means you are dead, if your tank gets stuck in the terrain. If this is your problem as a vehicle guy, you might go back to driving school. For HAVs this is almost good advice, but for dropships it's dumb advice. Flying close to buildings is almost a death sentence because swarms don't obey physics: anecdotally, I have been using a building for cover to pop up-shoot-drop down but the enemy swarms just loop up and over the building. Being near a building carries the very extant risk of being slammed into it, which will often either just kill you outright or magnetise you to it, making you dead meat for the swarmer. Frankly, swarms are so easy to operate and the only way for a DS to evade is to just run immediately before they can fire the fourth volley. A DS can survive a full clip of swarms, but it requires certain fits and still relies on an immediate neutralisation of the Swarmer or else you're forced to flee. You obviously got the impression, that your DS is supposed to be sitting in one spot and going in and out of cover, that is not the case. The DS as we have it now, and as it was intended by CCP's new vehicle doctrine is more something that goes in fast, shells out some damage, and when the modules cool down, it has to retreat. This does not mean, that you can take your time to take out the swarmer, or sit in a place mowing down infantry like a scrub and not being challanged by AV. When the first swarm hits you, you better check if the damage it made was proto grade. If it does, get the EFF out of there, or be taken down. If you go up and hit your afterburners, you might get away, but if you go down, and break the lockon with whatever obstacle is around, you will have a better chance. If you can't do that, then you are not good enough, and should not complain anyway. If you are not able to run through city structures at high speeds, you have to train. Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now. Or, y'know, they have the coordinated support of a full team and that PC battles are entirely different boxes of frogs. Simply, swarms are more effective than a forge gun because of the ease of operation and near perfect application of damage. I'm not talking about PC here, I'm talking about the best pilots in game, who know that they can't linger and play around, these guys get the swarmer fast, and if they don't they get the hell out, and come back 10-20 seconds later with full health. I take down a lot of derps, but it's usually the badly fittet or to stubborn to get out ones who get killed. The pros are not easy to get, you have to lure them in, and let a lesser AV guy do the first hits, and if they feel they can stay for another 5 seconds, you have to hit them with maxed swarms or forges to take them down. But then it's earned, because usually they kill any swarmer in range within seconds.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 423	Posted - 2014.12.18 19:26:00 - [37] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now. Hate to sound like a pompous ass, but I'm one of the top ADS pilots in the game, and I complain about swarms all the time. It's the only AV weapon in the game I can count on seeing at least one of in any given match. I even saw a swarmer in an ambush. The amount of thought that goes into this weapon, and the freedom of movement you have with it is pathetically easy. The swarm is literally the only infantry AV weapon that allows you to lock on bunny hop while locking strafe effectively while locking achieve a lock while outside the lock box have shots that are guided for you All at the price of a little less damage that would never have mattered in an ADS vs AV fight. The part that pisses me off the most is that the only move I know of that can effectively outrun a swarm is something only a master would be able to pull off, while a swarm only has to maintain a lock for 1.05 seconds and let go. Well Derrith, you are one of the guys, who I have high regards towards, because you get me very often before I can take you down (if at all) and you do that in a swift effective way. If you are on an open map, you will probably die sooner or later. But on the maps with higher structures, you will break my lockon fairly often, or just take me out before i get my third swarm away. In those matches, I usually loose a lot of isk in suits. And btw, if it's an 80 clone Ambush, I spawn AV before I see Vehicles on the field, because if I don't, chances are that my team get's picked of by Vehicles pretty badly. But rememeber, that Minmando with Wiyrkomis is not cheap, and I usually loose more than I gain in those matches. But I invest in AV because I don't want to be a sitting duck! Considering you are using a area of effect weapon against infantry (missiles) it would be rediculous, if we could not move while aiming, like a heavy with a breach FG.
Fizzer XCIV Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 1410	Posted - 2014.12.18 19:30:00 - [38] - Quote Its not a bad idea. It just that this shouldn't really be the sudden new standard for swarms. Maybe the Assault Swarms could be changed to work in this manner? Please, make my Opus pretty...
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1160	Posted - 2014.12.18 20:00:00 - [39] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: You obviously got the impression, that your DS is supposed to be sitting in one spot and going in and out of cover, that is not the case. The DS as we have it now, and as it was intended by CCP's new vehicle doctrine is more something that goes in fast, shells out some damage, and when the modules cool down, it has to retreat. You're talking about strafing runs. Strafing runs are impossible using the current small turrets: railguns, mildly possible versus vehicles; blasters are laughable; missiles are far too slow firing. If you honestly think that the small turrets we have are sufficient to perform strafing runs, you live in a very different world to the rest of us. Mad Syringe wrote: This does not mean, that you can take your time to take out the swarmer, or sit in a place mowing down infantry like a scrub and not being challanged by AV. Sigh... Yes, all I want is to sit in my skytank murdering everything [/sarcasm] Why should we be entirely impotent against AV? Seriously, why? Currently, the situation is that you register the first first shot and have roughly two/three seconds max to kill the Swarmer; if you do then you're fine but if you don't you either die or must run at full speed. The swarm has almost every advantage: they attack first almost every time; they need not aim (there is a limited amount of actual aiming/positioning involved); they have comparatively abundant cover; they are free to bounce about like nutters when under fire; and they are rewarded handsomely for very little input. Mad Syringe wrote: When the first swarm hits you, you better check if the damage it made was proto grade. If it does, get the EFF out of there, or be taken down. If you go up and hit your afterburners, you might get away, but if you go down, and break the lockon with whatever obstacle is around, you will have a better chance. If you can't do that, then you are not good enough, and should not complain anyway. Checking the damage taken is inaccurate, due to...I dunno, a bajillion factors, primarily because of weak spot damage and potential swarm missiles hitting other things or hitting separately. Honestly, your posts smack of unfounded superiority: unless your Python is getting hit by MLT swarms, your best bet to is to just burn away immediately regardless and come back again more prepared. As a pilot you get no warning against auto hitting, auto tracking enemies while you have to worry about the nearby structures in case of immediate/sudden impacts throwing you into them: but you want to run closer to them just to not be able to avoid the swarm shots because of dodgy mechanics. Frankly, swarms hump DSs because they track stupidly: they follow the path, not the location. Dodging behind a building does next to nothing. Actually getting behind the building before the swarms hit you is next to impossible due to human reaction time, missile speed and DS responsiveness. Dodging swarms doesn't happen unless you are hugging a building and waiting for swarms to come at you, and even then it's unreliable. Mad Syringe wrote: If you are not able to run through city structures at high speeds, you have to train. Sigh, I'm a perfectly capable pilot thanks. The thing is that flying at high speed (ie, anything faster than 10mph) is not conducive to shelling out damage. Quite frankly, anyone who claims that a DS can go through at high speed and do anything more than fire one or two shots does not understand the game. Sitting in one spot is not what I was talking about: using cover at all is barely useable by a DS, no matter if you're moving at high speed or low. In fact, flying incredibly low at high speed when getting hit by AV is asking to have your nose/tail knocked up/down at some random moment and then getting smashed into a building. If you don't understand this, you are not a dedicated enough pilot to comment. As for causing some damage: small missiles are low ROF, such that high speed attacks will yield next to no results - in fact they'll pretty much only give you equipment destruction; the are also low radius, such that actually hitting targets is unlikely, especially when in tandem with the low ROF. The small missiles we have are incapable of performing the strafing runs that you and Rattati talk of. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Hector Carson Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 108	Posted - 2014.12.18 20:06:00 - [40] - Quote Atiim wrote: The fun part about idiotic ideas is that I don't need to argue against them, as they won't be implemented. Only true assholes like this person would stifle a decent idea even if no one else sees it, then again he is probably butt hurt cause swarms kick his ass lol My Corp fights for whoever has money, Primarily PC battles

Fizzer XCIV Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 1412	Posted - 2014.12.18 20:22:00 - [41] - Quote Hector Carson wrote: Atiim wrote: The fun part about idiotic ideas is that I don't need to argue against them, as they won't be implemented. Only true assholes like this person would stifle a decent idea even if no one else sees it, then again he is probably butt hurt cause swarms kick his ass lol Lulz. Please, make my Opus pretty...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 423	Posted - 2014.12.18 20:31:00 - [42] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Why should we be entirely impotent against AV? Seriously, why? Currently, the situation is that you register the first first shot and have roughly two/three seconds max to kill the Swarmer; if you do then you're fine but if you don't you either die or must run at full speed. I think that's the most important point, you have to get the swarmer fast, or retreat and try again. The good guys get me on a regular basis, the bad ones don't. I will not say, that using swarms is particularly difficult, but it's not skill free either. The top dawgs can handle it and the rest just has to avoid the swarmers position. If you have a stubborn swarmer (like me) I might waste several suits just to get you but what I'm saying is, the good pilots will not be easy prey for one swarmer on his own, be it proto or not. If you nerf swarms, we will have Vehicle 514 all over again. So you have two options, kill the guy, or go somewhere else to get easier prey. And if you have a squad, one sniper is enough to keep a swarmer in check...
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1161	Posted - 2014.12.18 21:09:00 - [43] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: I think that's the most important point, you have to get the swarmer fast, or retreat and try again. The good guys get me on a regular basis, the bad ones don't. I will not say, that using swarms is particularly difficult, but it's not skill free either. The top dawgs can handle it and the rest just has to avoid the swarmers position. If you have a stubborn swarmer (like me) I might waste several suits just to get you but what I'm saying is, the good pilots will not be easy prey for one swarmer on his own, be it proto or not. If you nerf swarms, we will have Vehicle 514 all over again. So you have two options, kill the guy, or go somewhere else to get easier prey. And if you have a squad, one sniper is enough to keep a swarmer in check... I can see that. I do find it somewhat silly how well rewarded AV is comparatively: one Swarmer can reap a whole mess of WP from an ADS that's trying to help (considering they are ADSs and supposed to perform strafing runs, which inherently involves attacking) their team, while the ADS is constantly driven off and gains next to no reward for causing minor damage to enemies if at all, due to the terrible strafing potential of small missiles. As far as nerfing swarms, I'm not after nerfing them. This thread by Juno Tristan is the kind of change I'd advocate: something that introduces far more skill, on both sides, to the equation. If that requires a buff to swarm damage, that's fine by me, provided that swarms are not point and click and that vehicle operator skill (and not just DSs) can cause them issue just like with FGs. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 423	Posted - 2014.12.18 21:53:00 - [44] - Quote The problem with all these proposed SL nerfs, are that they would bring back vehicle 514 as we had it a while ago. And to be honest, the only ones who want that, are vehicle only players. This balance very easily goes to far into each direction, right now, we might be a little into infantrys favour, but it doesn't need much to make vehicles good mode again...
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1161	Posted - 2014.12.18 22:10:00 - [45] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The problem with all these proposed SL nerfs, are that they would bring back vehicle 514 as we had it a while ago. And to be honest, the only ones who want that, are vehicle only players. This balance very easily goes to far into each direction, right now, we might be a little into infantrys favour, but it doesn't need much to make vehicles good mode again... Out of curiosity, did you actually look at the link I posted? As I said in my last post, changing the operation may justify a damage buff, but changing the operation to skill being actually requisite like every other weapon in the game would make it less retardedly easy to use. Can you give me a good reason why swarms should remain so simple and effective to use? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.


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