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[Request]How Swarms should work

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Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1141	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:47:00 - [1] - Quote He does have a valid point: Swarms never lose their lock,and that removes skill from the equation. I can never evade a missile in my DS unless I'm hovering right next to a building and even that is not reliable (for some unknown reason.) Having some way to 'dodge' a missile and cause it to lose lock, with a possibility to reacquire, would be good. Unlikely to happen, because lolAV... Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1145	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:03:00 - [2] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: I think swarms right now are pretty good, if you are a good pilot are a good driver, you don't need to worry much about a swarmer (unless there's more than one of them), but if you're stuck in a corner it's a matter of killing the guy before he kills you. What we really should be talking about is how to bring back forge guns, am I the only who's noticed that forge gunners are now virtually non-existent? Why FGs are rare: because Swarms are vastly less difficult to operate and equally effective. Solution: make Swarma require effort to use such that they are no longer ridiculously easy point and click WP hoses. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1150	Posted - 2014.12.18 12:40:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: For real. Those dual hardeners are damn near invincible. It's almost as if a weapon designed to destroy armour that's weak against shields suffers immensely when someone fits two limited duration modules and then runs them simultaneously! It would be crazy to think that an armour biased weapon should be like a wet noodle against fully tanked shields [Not that I think you were complaining necessarily, but that kind of thinking seems to be endemic to the forums.] Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1155	Posted - 2014.12.18 17:03:00 - [4] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The other thing is the upcoming changes with proto vehicles coming back. These will leave infantry in the dust again, if there is no counter to them, that can be easily fielded. PRO vehicles aren't coming back. If you paid any attention to the feedback thread Rattati put up, the intention is for Marauders/Enforcers to be side grades, not higher tiers such that your statement is essentially void. Mad Syringe wrote: Finally, the lock on vehicles, is broken fast if you go for cover, this means, that you have to fly low, instead of high, to evade swarms, and it means you are dead, if your tank gets stuck in the terrain. If this is your problem as a vehicle guy, you might go back to driving school. For HAVs this is almost good advice, but for dropships it's dumb advice. Flying close to buildings is almost a death sentence because swarms don't obey physics: anecdotally, I have been using a building for cover to pop up-shoot-drop down but the enemy swarms just loop up and over the building. Being near a building carries the very extant risk of being slammed into it, which will often either just kill you outright or magnetise you to it, making you dead meat for the swarmer. Frankly, swarms are so easy to operate and the only way for a DS to evade is to just run immediately before they can fire the fourth volley. A DS can survive a full clip of swarms, but it requires certain fits and still relies on an immediate neutralisation of the Swarmer or else you're forced to flee. Mad Syringe wrote: The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now. Or, y'know, they have the coordinated support of a full team and that PC battles are entirely different boxes of frogs. Simply, swarms are more effective than a forge gun because of the ease of operation and near perfect application of damage. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1160	Posted - 2014.12.18 20:00:00 - [5] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: You obviously got the impression, that your DS is supposed to be sitting in one spot and going in and out of cover, that is not the case. The DS as we have it now, and as it was intended by CCP's new vehicle doctrine is more something that goes in fast, shells out some damage, and when the modules cool down, it has to retreat. You're talking about strafing runs. Strafing runs are impossible using the current small turrets: railguns, mildly possible versus vehicles; blasters are laughable; missiles are far too slow firing. If you honestly think that the small turrets we have are sufficient to perform strafing runs, you live in a very different world to the rest of us. Mad Syringe wrote: This does not mean, that you can take your time to take out the swarmer, or sit in a place mowing down infantry like a scrub and not being challanged by AV. Sigh... Yes, all I want is to sit in my skytank murdering everything [/sarcasm] Why should we be entirely impotent against AV? Seriously, why? Currently, the situation is that you register the first first shot and have roughly two/three seconds max to kill the Swarmer; if you do then you're fine but if you don't you either die or must run at full speed. The swarm has almost every advantage: they attack first almost every time; they need not aim (there is a limited amount of actual aiming/positioning involved); they have comparatively abundant cover; they are free to bounce about like nutters when under fire; and they are rewarded handsomely for very little input. Mad Syringe wrote: When the first swarm hits you, you better check if the damage it made was proto grade. If it does, get the EFF out of there, or be taken down. If you go up and hit your afterburners, you might get away, but if you go down, and break the lockon with whatever obstacle is around, you will have a better chance. If you can't do that, then you are not good enough, and should not complain anyway. Checking the damage taken is inaccurate, due to...I dunno, a bajillion factors, primarily because of weak spot damage and potential swarm missiles hitting other things or hitting separately. Honestly, your posts smack of unfounded superiority: unless your Python is getting hit by MLT swarms, your best bet to is to just burn away immediately regardless and come back again more prepared. As a pilot you get no warning against auto hitting, auto tracking enemies while you have to worry about the nearby structures in case of immediate/sudden impacts throwing you into them: but you want to run closer to them just to not be able to avoid the swarm shots because of dodgy mechanics. Frankly, swarms hump DSs because they track stupidly: they follow the path, not the location. Dodging behind a building does next to nothing. Actually getting behind the building before the swarms hit you is next to impossible due to human reaction time, missile speed and DS responsiveness. Dodging swarms doesn't happen unless you are hugging a building and waiting for swarms to come at you, and even then it's unreliable. Mad Syringe wrote: If you are not able to run through city structures at high speeds, you have to train. Sigh, I'm a perfectly capable pilot thanks. The thing is that flying at high speed (ie, anything faster than 10mph) is not conducive to shelling out damage. Quite frankly, anyone who claims that a DS can go through at high speed and do anything more than fire one or two shots does not understand the game. Sitting in one spot is not what I was talking about: using cover at all is barely useable by a DS, no matter if you're moving at high speed or low. In fact, flying incredibly low at high speed when getting hit by AV is asking to have your nose/tail knocked up/down at some random moment and then getting smashed into a building. If you don't understand this, you are not a dedicated enough pilot to comment. As for causing some damage: small missiles are low ROF, such that high speed attacks will yield next to no results - in fact they'll pretty much only give you equipment destruction; the are also low radius, such that actually hitting targets is unlikely, especially when in tandem with the low ROF. The small missiles we have are incapable of performing the strafing runs that you and Rattati talk of. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1161	Posted - 2014.12.18 21:09:00 - [6] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: I think that's the most important point, you have to get the swarmer fast, or retreat and try again. The good guys get me on a regular basis, the bad ones don't. I will not say, that using swarms is particularly difficult, but it's not skill free either. The top dawgs can handle it and the rest just has to avoid the swarmers position. If you have a stubborn swarmer (like me) I might waste several suits just to get you but what I'm saying is, the good pilots will not be easy prey for one swarmer on his own, be it proto or not. If you nerf swarms, we will have Vehicle 514 all over again. So you have two options, kill the guy, or go somewhere else to get easier prey. And if you have a squad, one sniper is enough to keep a swarmer in check... I can see that. I do find it somewhat silly how well rewarded AV is comparatively: one Swarmer can reap a whole mess of WP from an ADS that's trying to help (considering they are ADSs and supposed to perform strafing runs, which inherently involves attacking) their team, while the ADS is constantly driven off and gains next to no reward for causing minor damage to enemies if at all, due to the terrible strafing potential of small missiles. As far as nerfing swarms, I'm not after nerfing them. This thread by Juno Tristan is the kind of change I'd advocate: something that introduces far more skill, on both sides, to the equation. If that requires a buff to swarm damage, that's fine by me, provided that swarms are not point and click and that vehicle operator skill (and not just DSs) can cause them issue just like with FGs. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1161	Posted - 2014.12.18 22:10:00 - [7] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The problem with all these proposed SL nerfs, are that they would bring back vehicle 514 as we had it a while ago. And to be honest, the only ones who want that, are vehicle only players. This balance very easily goes to far into each direction, right now, we might be a little into infantrys favour, but it doesn't need much to make vehicles good mode again... Out of curiosity, did you actually look at the link I posted? As I said in my last post, changing the operation may justify a damage buff, but changing the operation to skill being actually requisite like every other weapon in the game would make it less retardedly easy to use. Can you give me a good reason why swarms should remain so simple and effective to use? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.

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