DUST Search - [Request]How Swarms should work

Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

Mad Syringe wrote:

Finally, the lock on vehicles, is broken fast if you go for cover, this means, that you have to fly low, instead of high, to evade swarms, and it means you are dead, if your tank gets stuck in the terrain. If this is your problem as a vehicle guy, you might go back to driving school.

For HAVs this is almost good advice, but for dropships it's dumb advice. Flying close to buildings is almost a death sentence because swarms don't obey physics: anecdotally, I have been using a building for cover to pop up-shoot-drop down but the enemy swarms just loop up and over the building.

Being near a building carries the very extant risk of being slammed into it, which will often either just kill you outright or magnetise you to it, making you dead meat for the swarmer. Frankly, swarms are so easy to operate and the only way for a DS to evade is to just run immediately before they can fire the fourth volley. A DS can survive a full clip of swarms, but it requires certain fits and still relies on an immediate neutralisation of the Swarmer or else you're forced to flee.

Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

Mad Syringe wrote:

The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now.

Or, y'know, they have the coordinated support of a full team and that PC battles are entirely different boxes of frogs.

Simply, swarms are more effective than a forge gun because of the ease of operation and near perfect application of damage.


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Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 420	Posted - 2014.12.18 16:40:00 - [1] - Quote The SL needs to be left allone, for a simple reason. It's the only valid infantry medium range weapon for light frames. It's pretty strong against armour, and it's pretty weak against shields. Until we have a light anti shield weapon, that does similar damage in similar ranges, the SL is fine as is. It's not perfect, but we can't balance it without a anti shield alternative. The PLC is no such alternative, since it's too situational. The other thing is the upcoming changes with proto vehicles coming back. These will leave infantry in the dust again, if there is no counter to them, that can be easily fielded. Finally, the lock on vehicles, is broken fast if you go for cover, this means, that you have to fly low, instead of high, to evade swarms, and it means you are dead, if your tank gets stuck in the terrain. If this is your problem as a vehicle guy, you might go back to driving school. The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 423	Posted - 2014.12.18 19:12:00 - [2] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Finally, the lock on vehicles, is broken fast if you go for cover, this means, that you have to fly low, instead of high, to evade swarms, and it means you are dead, if your tank gets stuck in the terrain. If this is your problem as a vehicle guy, you might go back to driving school. For HAVs this is almost good advice, but for dropships it's dumb advice. Flying close to buildings is almost a death sentence because swarms don't obey physics: anecdotally, I have been using a building for cover to pop up-shoot-drop down but the enemy swarms just loop up and over the building. Being near a building carries the very extant risk of being slammed into it, which will often either just kill you outright or magnetise you to it, making you dead meat for the swarmer. Frankly, swarms are so easy to operate and the only way for a DS to evade is to just run immediately before they can fire the fourth volley. A DS can survive a full clip of swarms, but it requires certain fits and still relies on an immediate neutralisation of the Swarmer or else you're forced to flee. You obviously got the impression, that your DS is supposed to be sitting in one spot and going in and out of cover, that is not the case. The DS as we have it now, and as it was intended by CCP's new vehicle doctrine is more something that goes in fast, shells out some damage, and when the modules cool down, it has to retreat. This does not mean, that you can take your time to take out the swarmer, or sit in a place mowing down infantry like a scrub and not being challanged by AV. When the first swarm hits you, you better check if the damage it made was proto grade. If it does, get the EFF out of there, or be taken down. If you go up and hit your afterburners, you might get away, but if you go down, and break the lockon with whatever obstacle is around, you will have a better chance. If you can't do that, then you are not good enough, and should not complain anyway. If you are not able to run through city structures at high speeds, you have to train. Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now. Or, y'know, they have the coordinated support of a full team and that PC battles are entirely different boxes of frogs. Simply, swarms are more effective than a forge gun because of the ease of operation and near perfect application of damage. I'm not talking about PC here, I'm talking about the best pilots in game, who know that they can't linger and play around, these guys get the swarmer fast, and if they don't they get the hell out, and come back 10-20 seconds later with full health. I take down a lot of derps, but it's usually the badly fittet or to stubborn to get out ones who get killed. The pros are not easy to get, you have to lure them in, and let a lesser AV guy do the first hits, and if they feel they can stay for another 5 seconds, you have to hit them with maxed swarms or forges to take them down. But then it's earned, because usually they kill any swarmer in range within seconds.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 423	Posted - 2014.12.18 19:26:00 - [3] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The Vehicle specialists of the top corps usually do not complain, since they know, with the right fit, and maxed vehicle skills, SL's are not a problem right now. Hate to sound like a pompous ass, but I'm one of the top ADS pilots in the game, and I complain about swarms all the time. It's the only AV weapon in the game I can count on seeing at least one of in any given match. I even saw a swarmer in an ambush. The amount of thought that goes into this weapon, and the freedom of movement you have with it is pathetically easy. The swarm is literally the only infantry AV weapon that allows you to lock on bunny hop while locking strafe effectively while locking achieve a lock while outside the lock box have shots that are guided for you All at the price of a little less damage that would never have mattered in an ADS vs AV fight. The part that pisses me off the most is that the only move I know of that can effectively outrun a swarm is something only a master would be able to pull off, while a swarm only has to maintain a lock for 1.05 seconds and let go. Well Derrith, you are one of the guys, who I have high regards towards, because you get me very often before I can take you down (if at all) and you do that in a swift effective way. If you are on an open map, you will probably die sooner or later. But on the maps with higher structures, you will break my lockon fairly often, or just take me out before i get my third swarm away. In those matches, I usually loose a lot of isk in suits. And btw, if it's an 80 clone Ambush, I spawn AV before I see Vehicles on the field, because if I don't, chances are that my team get's picked of by Vehicles pretty badly. But rememeber, that Minmando with Wiyrkomis is not cheap, and I usually loose more than I gain in those matches. But I invest in AV because I don't want to be a sitting duck! Considering you are using a area of effect weapon against infantry (missiles) it would be rediculous, if we could not move while aiming, like a heavy with a breach FG.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 423	Posted - 2014.12.18 20:31:00 - [4] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Why should we be entirely impotent against AV? Seriously, why? Currently, the situation is that you register the first first shot and have roughly two/three seconds max to kill the Swarmer; if you do then you're fine but if you don't you either die or must run at full speed. I think that's the most important point, you have to get the swarmer fast, or retreat and try again. The good guys get me on a regular basis, the bad ones don't. I will not say, that using swarms is particularly difficult, but it's not skill free either. The top dawgs can handle it and the rest just has to avoid the swarmers position. If you have a stubborn swarmer (like me) I might waste several suits just to get you but what I'm saying is, the good pilots will not be easy prey for one swarmer on his own, be it proto or not. If you nerf swarms, we will have Vehicle 514 all over again. So you have two options, kill the guy, or go somewhere else to get easier prey. And if you have a squad, one sniper is enough to keep a swarmer in check...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 423	Posted - 2014.12.18 21:53:00 - [5] - Quote The problem with all these proposed SL nerfs, are that they would bring back vehicle 514 as we had it a while ago. And to be honest, the only ones who want that, are vehicle only players. This balance very easily goes to far into each direction, right now, we might be a little into infantrys favour, but it doesn't need much to make vehicles good mode again...