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[Question] Why haven't ISK payouts been buffed in Pubs?

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KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 870	Posted - 2014.12.02 10:59:00 - [1] - Quote There's been enough threads already asking for higher payouts, and it makes sense. If you actually play to win in a pub match, it's hard to make a living. Die 10 times in an Advanced suit and you're in the red, even if you get 30 kills and top war points. I can't imagine what the newberries are going through. So, why hasn't CCP buffed payouts yet? This is easily fixed, as was made apparent during the last emergency hotfix to reduce payouts. Is this just a ploy to sell more BPOs and AUR gear? BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17930	Posted - 2014.12.02 11:27:00 - [2] - Quote Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Stevez Wingyip Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic 13	Posted - 2014.12.02 11:30:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2233	Posted - 2014.12.02 11:32:00 - [4] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: There's been enough threads already asking for higher payouts, and it makes sense. If you actually play to win in a pub match, it's hard to make a living. Die 10 times in an Advanced suit and you're in the red, even if you get 30 kills and top war points. I can't imagine what the newberries are going through. So, why hasn't CCP buffed payouts yet? This is easily fixed, as was made apparent during the last emergency hotfix to reduce payouts. Is this just a ploy to sell more BPOs and AUR gear? well lower end of the spectrum seem to be worse but higher end if you actually get like 1500wp+ you get a decent payout.. and for 2500+ its like 400k+ #[[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 6262	Posted - 2014.12.02 11:34:00 - [5] - Quote It doesn't need to be changed. It has worked fine for more than two years. Why should we change a system that is not broken? Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 6262	Posted - 2014.12.02 11:36:00 - [6] - Quote Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. I believe that video tutorials. Are the answer. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 871	Posted - 2014.12.02 22:45:00 - [7] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. That's silly. What happens when we get PvE? People will be grinding for their ISK in efficient organized raids, and then hit the pubs with all their prototype gear and officer/pirate drops. Saying "we don't want people running proto in pubs" is the same as saying "we don't want people having ISK". BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
hfderrtgvcd 1417	Posted - 2014.12.02 22:51:00 - [8] - Quote Battle rewards are on the roadmap You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Moorian Flav 277	Posted - 2014.12.02 22:53:00 - [9] - Quote I like it the way it is. There is already an abundance of ISK out there due to PC being previously exploited. Besides, if you are running out of ISK, use basic/militia/BPO stuff a while to build back up your ISK bank like everyone else. If anything, CCP should be running special events and tournaments with huge ISK payouts for those willing to participate and take the time to fulfill the specified tasks. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14080	Posted - 2014.12.02 22:53:00 - [10] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. That's silly. What happens when we get PvE? People will be grinding for their ISK in efficient organized raids, and then hit the pubs with all their prototype gear and officer/pirate drops. Saying "we don't want people running proto in pubs" is the same as saying "we don't want people having ISK". He didn't say that they don't want people running PRO in PUBs, he simply said that he doesn't want people who only play PUBs to be able to run PRO gear 24/7. Which makes sense as you aren't engaging in anything of high-risk or long term importance. Not to mention that it would make ISK meaningless as everyone would have a theoretically infinite supply. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND

Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 451	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:04:00 - [11] - Quote Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. Problem with "proto stomped" is not that they running proto suits itself but that they stack tons of HP and are like a little tanks for someone that have just basic HP. KA24DERT wrote: There's been enough threads already asking for higher payouts, and it makes sense. If you actually play to win in a pub match, it's hard to make a living. Die 10 times in an Advanced suit and you're in the red, even if you get 30 kills and top war points. I can't imagine what the newberries are going through. So, why hasn't CCP buffed payouts yet? This is easily fixed, as was made apparent during the last emergency hotfix to reduce payouts. Is this just a ploy to sell more BPOs and AUR gear? You don't have to die that often, try not to break your team front-line and when you drop you may be pickup by Logibro, just try to do it behind some cover - it is easier then to rescue someone.. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 871	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:21:00 - [12] - Quote Atiim wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. That's silly. What happens when we get PvE? People will be grinding for their ISK in efficient organized raids, and then hit the pubs with all their prototype gear and officer/pirate drops. Saying "we don't want people running proto in pubs" is the same as saying "we don't want people having ISK". He didn't say that they don't want people running PRO in PUBs, he simply said that he doesn't want people who only play PUBs to be able to run PRO gear 24/7. Which makes sense as you aren't engaging in anything of high-risk or long term importance. Not to mention that it would make ISK meaningless as everyone would have a theoretically infinite supply. Infinite ISK isn't a problem, it's what this game is based on. Pub contract payouts generate ISK out of thin air, and BPOs let you run infinite amounts of free gear. Now, in regards to pubs being a non "high-risk" activity, that's the self-fulfilling prophecy i'm talking about. It isn't high-risk because risk is not incentivized. The payouts aren't much better if you win than if you lose, and the payouts aren't much better if you're at the top or the bottom of the leaderboard. A decent ADV fit costs about 40-50k, die 10 times hacking/protecting a point and you're barely breaking even if you win, nevermind if you lose. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2174	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:43:00 - [13] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. That's silly. What happens when we get PvE? People will be grinding for their ISK in efficient organized raids, and then hit the pubs with all their prototype gear and officer/pirate drops. Saying "we don't want people running proto in pubs" is the same as saying "we don't want people having ISK". And people will die in PVE. And that will "put money in the pot", reducing the money the players get per match to a reasonable profit. Increasing the profit from pubs, which already provides a fine profit if you play well, or w/ cheap suits, will increase the abundance of ISK, making it easier to afford protostomp 24:7 I Live for Tears
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4935	Posted - 2014.12.03 00:05:00 - [14] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. That's silly. What happens when we get PvE? People will be grinding for their ISK in efficient organized raids, and then hit the pubs with all their prototype gear and officer/pirate drops. Saying "we don't want people running proto in pubs" is the same as saying "we don't want people having ISK". Founder & CEO Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought Strive. No mattter what
Ryme Intrinseca Dead Man's Game RUST415 2159	Posted - 2014.12.03 08:07:00 - [15] - Quote ISK payouts should be more proportional to contribution. 30-10 and top of the board in advanced should generally break even. I don't know if we necessarily need to increase the size of the 'pie' so much as slice it differently (e.g. no payout for AFKers and others that don't leave the redline, give their ISK to high WP players instead).
Her Chosen Grade No.2 90	Posted - 2014.12.03 09:11:00 - [16] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. Why not? It's not the player's fault that CCP throws new players to slaughter because of a laughable NPE. Public contracts are low risk, high reward. AFKing can net more ISK because of the zero liability it has. Stop punishing players for playing hard.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 874	Posted - 2014.12.03 10:23:00 - [17] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: ISK payouts should be more proportional to contribution. 30-10 and top of the board in advanced should generally break even. I don't know if we necessarily need to increase the size of the 'pie' so much as slice it differently (e.g. no payout for AFKers and others that don't leave the redline, give their ISK to high WP players instead). My issue is that "breaking even" isn't good enough. I don't know what the pot looks like for pubs, but yes, I agree with the idea that top Logis and Slayers should come away with the lion's share. Perhaps there could also be increased ISK rewards for time spent near an objective. Anything to put ISK into the wallets of the competitive player. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
jade gamester B.A.L.A.M.O.R.Y. G.L.O.R.Y. 43	Posted - 2014.12.03 12:40:00 - [18] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. Haven't we gone past that? I mean with past isk exploits people in certain corps will run proto till the end, I do get enjoyment with you reduce a proto to basic as he keeps losing the proto suit but I have been in games where people will happily burn 5mil isk and not flinch? Maybe an isk wipe :D King of contradiction all hail kingthunderbolt o7
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 98	Posted - 2014.12.03 12:53:00 - [19] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: KA24DERT wrote: There's been enough threads already asking for higher payouts, and it makes sense. If you actually play to win in a pub match, it's hard to make a living. Die 10 times in an Advanced suit and you're in the red, even if you get 30 kills and top war points. I can't imagine what the newberries are going through. So, why hasn't CCP buffed payouts yet? This is easily fixed, as was made apparent during the last emergency hotfix to reduce payouts. Is this just a ploy to sell more BPOs and AUR gear? well lower end of the spectrum seem to be worse but higher end if you actually get like 1500wp+ you get a decent payout.. and for 2500+ its like 400k+ Since the fix to payouts after 1.9 dropped, I've never got more than about 300k ISK. Top of the leaderboard with 2975wp last week gave me under 300k ISK (I think it was 280k). Someone told me that the more BPOs played, the lower the payout.
Everything Dies Santa is coming...FOR BLOOD 1093	Posted - 2014.12.03 13:28:00 - [20] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: Someone told me that the more BPOs played, the lower the payout. That could definitely be an issue if the "cost" of gear lost in battle plays a big role in determining payouts. My suggestion --instead of a flat increase to payouts-- would be to increase the amount of salvage from each battle. A player should expect to come away with at least 9 items of basic gear and 3 advanced, with the occasional proto item dropping as well. On its own the non-proto gear wouldn't be worth much, but it would allow players to stockpile some weapons/modules/etc. that they otherwise wouldn't have tried out. Mike Patton is the greatest singer in music. Proof

Ryme Intrinseca Dead Man's Game RUST415 2163	Posted - 2014.12.03 13:43:00 - [21] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: ISK payouts should be more proportional to contribution. 30-10 and top of the board in advanced should generally break even. I don't know if we necessarily need to increase the size of the 'pie' so much as slice it differently (e.g. no payout for AFKers and others that don't leave the redline, give their ISK to high WP players instead). My issue is that "breaking even" isn't good enough. I don't know what the pot looks like for pubs, but yes, I agree with the idea that top Logis and Slayers should come away with the lion's share. Perhaps there could also be increased ISK rewards for time spent near an objective. Anything to put ISK into the wallets of the competitive player. I would guess that in an average game the pot for the winners is something like: 350k 300 280 270 250 230 220 210 200 190 180 170 160 130 (AFK) 130 (AFK) 130 (AFK) In that example there is 3.40mil ISK to be distributed, which seems enough to me. The problem is that some of it is getting eaten up by AFKers and other people who are barely playing. If you took the 390k away from the AFKers and distributed it among the top three players, their payouts would be more like 400-500k, which seems more reasonable. PS - In 1.10 there will be +25% WP (and therefore extra ISK) for actions within 50m of objectives, which is a step in the right direction.
Ryme Intrinseca Dead Man's Game RUST415 2163	Posted - 2014.12.03 13:45:00 - [22] - Quote Everything Dies wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: Someone told me that the more BPOs played, the lower the payout. That could definitely be an issue if the "cost" of gear lost in battle plays a big role in determining payouts. It is a major influence on the overall payout.
Ryme Intrinseca Dead Man's Game RUST415 2163	Posted - 2014.12.03 13:50:00 - [23] - Quote jade gamester wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. Haven't we gone past that? I mean with past isk exploits... Still plenty of ISK exploits, e.g. people who leave their PS3 on when they go to work so they can farm ISK and SP via AFK macros. That's why, on the maps where the ground spawn is outside the redline, you see people repeatedly spawn into the line of fire.
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 98	Posted - 2014.12.03 14:04:00 - [24] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: ISK payouts should be more proportional to contribution. 30-10 and top of the board in advanced should generally break even. I don't know if we necessarily need to increase the size of the 'pie' so much as slice it differently (e.g. no payout for AFKers and others that don't leave the redline, give their ISK to high WP players instead). My issue is that "breaking even" isn't good enough. I don't know what the pot looks like for pubs, but yes, I agree with the idea that top Logis and Slayers should come away with the lion's share. Perhaps there could also be increased ISK rewards for time spent near an objective. Anything to put ISK into the wallets of the competitive player. I would guess that in an average game the pot for the winners is something like: 350k 300 280 270 250 230 220 210 200 190 180 170 160 130 (AFK) 130 (AFK) 130 (AFK) In that example there is 3.40mil ISK to be distributed, which seems enough to me. The problem is that some of it is getting eaten up by AFKers and other people who are barely playing. If you took the 390k away from the AFKers and distributed it among the top three players, their payouts would be more like 400-500k, which seems more reasonable. PS - In 1.10 there will be +25% WP (and therefore extra ISK) for actions within 50m of objectives, which is a step in the right direction. I'm regularly top 3 and rarely get 300k. 280k is what I expect when I make 1k more WP than the person in second. And I've frequently gotten less than 100k in 11th before (with 5-0 and about 450-500wp)
Mobius Wyvern Sky-FIRE 5480	Posted - 2014.12.03 15:28:00 - [25] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: There's been enough threads already asking for higher payouts, and it makes sense. If you actually play to win in a pub match, it's hard to make a living. Die 10 times in an Advanced suit and you're in the red, even if you get 30 kills and top war points. I can't imagine what the newberries are going through. So, why hasn't CCP buffed payouts yet? This is easily fixed, as was made apparent during the last emergency hotfix to reduce payouts. Is this just a ploy to sell more BPOs and AUR gear? Run Minmatar Logi. Have everyone love you and get 5000+ WP in a match. Shayz shows how it's done. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 875	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:15:00 - [26] - Quote ITT: People who want everyone to be poor because ISK is bad. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Michael Epic Bragian Order Amarr Empire 348	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:18:00 - [27] - Quote Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. There needs to be a standard gear mode where we can play when we're pissed off to blow off some steam or for the new players to get used to the maps and try out tactics.
Eruditus 920 Nemo Malus Felix 944	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:52:00 - [28] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. There needs to be a standard gear mode where we can play when we're pissed off to blow off some steam or for the new players to get used to the maps and try out tactics. Suggestions such as this have been thrown around for as long as I've been here and the argument against it has always been the player count is too low to dilute it even further by adding additional modes. But I think we would grow the player count by retaining more players with a mode in between academy and anything goes pubs. FW is play to win. Pubs are play for WP since there is no material reward for winning. That is the sad truth. "Stay gold, Ponyboy..."
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 877	Posted - 2014.12.04 23:02:00 - [29] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. There needs to be a standard gear mode where we can play when we're pissed off to blow off some steam or for the new players to get used to the maps and try out tactics. No, there doesn't. What's to stop bored "PROTO" stompers from "STD" stomping? The longer battle academy is the right solution for that. But also, all that BS is off topic. This thread is for addressing the pitiful PUB payouts that put this game on the verge of Pay2Win, or more aptly, pay to play. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Eruditus 920 Nemo Malus Felix 944	Posted - 2014.12.04 23:22:00 - [30] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Michael Epic wrote: Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. There needs to be a standard gear mode where we can play when we're pissed off to blow off some steam or for the new players to get used to the maps and try out tactics. No, there doesn't. What's to stop bored "PROTO" stompers from "STD" stomping? The longer battle academy is the right solution for that. But also, all that BS is off topic. This thread is for addressing the pitiful PUB payouts that put this game on the verge of Pay2Win, or more aptly, pay to play. So your against a standard mode for fear of stomping. But larger ISK payouts makes it easier for players to run proto for stomping. I'm afraid I don't follow your inconsistent logic. "Stay gold, Ponyboy..."

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 877	Posted - 2014.12.04 23:41:00 - [31] - Quote Eruditus 920 wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Michael Epic wrote: Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. There needs to be a standard gear mode where we can play when we're pissed off to blow off some steam or for the new players to get used to the maps and try out tactics. No, there doesn't. What's to stop bored "PROTO" stompers from "STD" stomping? The longer battle academy is the right solution for that. But also, all that BS is off topic. This thread is for addressing the pitiful PUB payouts that put this game on the verge of Pay2Win, or more aptly, pay to play. So your against a standard mode for fear of stomping. But larger ISK payouts makes it easier for players to run proto for stomping. I'm afraid I don't follow your inconsistent logic. An STD Gear mode was proposed by Micheal Epic as a solution to new players getting stomped, as a counter-proposal to Stevez just wanting a longer battle academy. Micheal's proposal won't solve anything, because "proto stomping" is less about the "proto" and more about skilled organized squads stomping the crap out of newberries and bad players. I never said I didn't want a standard mode for fear of stomping, I said that a standard mode won't stop stomping, and that segregating players according to battlefield effectiveness and battlefield experience is the correct solution to stomping of any sort. You're conflating the "issue" of proto in pubs with the issue of stomping in pubs, like many other people in this game. But none of that has anything to do with making a living in this game, for Veteran and Newberry alike. If Newberry can be a competent logi in a pub and help their team by dropping equipment and healing, Newberry should get paid. If Newberry gets paid enough to run PROTO, Newberry gets to run PROTO. Problem now is that Newberry can barely make enough to run ADV because payouts DO NOT incentivize victory. So Newberry idles in the MCC, and earns more ISK than if Newberry actually fought to win. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Vlad Rostok SAM-MIK 27	Posted - 2014.12.05 00:03:00 - [32] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. Um, I'm already permanently running prototypes in pubs. Sure, they're sh!tty APEX prototypes, but they are prototypes.
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 73	Posted - 2014.12.05 00:06:00 - [33] - Quote Advanced fitting costs ~50K ISK, average winning payout (for me at least) is ~250K If I die 5 times I make 0 ISK. (Remember that we all want balanced matches - which would mean K/D that looks more like 12/10 than 29/2) Is this the Working As Intended? Is pub reward system designed around the idea that players should mostly run basic/militia - and if you run higher than basic you should expect to (over all, not per match) run at a loss/ or at best break even? Without knowing the intended design it's hard to suggest a 'fix'... GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance 269	Posted - 2014.12.05 00:10:00 - [34] - Quote The isk payout is just fine in my opinion. I do however believe newer players should be stuck in the academy for a much longer time. Or make a secondary class after they get out of academy. For both their sake and the vets! I know it's gotta suck getting stomped by players in another league and it's bad for the vets when they only have a single squad who can hold a point. But again as far as isk, kinda why there is militia grade and basic grade, and don't tell me you can't get kills in it. My cheap gear has stomped more then enough guys in their proto to prove you wrong c: G.L.O.R.Y Soldier, I'm that Amarr heavy you warn your team about <3 -Heavy/Logi/Assault/Scout-
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 75	Posted - 2014.12.05 00:16:00 - [35] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: ISK payouts should be more proportional to contribution. 30-10 and top of the board in advanced should generally break even. I don't know if we necessarily need to increase the size of the 'pie' so much as slice it differently (e.g. no payout for AFKers and others that don't leave the redline, give their ISK to high WP players instead). I strongly agree with this statement and think that this is the solution that needs to be investigated. The payout proportion should increase exponentially with end-of-game leaderboard standings. What if 1st place got 500K ISK and last place got 500 ISK? Would that motivate players to contribute? What kind of proportion would be ideal? Pros: contribution is rewarded AFKing will be waaaaay shittier (good) players who did a lot but died a lot in the process wont be financially punished (as much) Cons: Players who are trying, but still placing at the bottom will suffer (but tbh, those newberries will suffer regardless) uhh.. potentially, WP boosters will be rewarded? although the +25% if close to objective may negate this Please feel free to improve this pros/cons list, I'm just shooting from the hip here. GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10405	Posted - 2014.12.05 00:34:00 - [36] - Quote Let's wait and see how it all goes once 1.10 arrives in less than a week. With daily mission rewards and strongbox salvage, we might see a slight buff to payout. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2192	Posted - 2014.12.05 00:40:00 - [37] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: An STD Gear mode was proposed by Micheal Epic as a solution to new players getting stomped, as a counter-proposal to Stevez just wanting a longer battle academy. Micheal's proposal won't solve anything, because "proto stomping" is less about the "proto" and more about skilled organized squads stomping the crap out of newberries and bad players. I never said I didn't want a standard mode for fear of stomping, I said that a standard mode won't stop stomping, and that segregating players according to battlefield effectiveness and battlefield experience is the correct solution to stomping of any sort. You're conflating the "issue" of proto in pubs with the issue of stomping in pubs, like many other people in this game. But none of that has anything to do with making a living in this game, for Veteran and Newberry alike. If Newberry can be a competent logi in a pub and help their team by dropping equipment and healing, Newberry should get paid. If Newberry gets paid enough to run PROTO, Newberry gets to run PROTO. Problem now is that Newberry can barely make enough to run ADV because payouts DO NOT incentivize victory. So Newberry idles in the MCC, and earns more ISK than if Newberry actually fought to win. "Proto-Stomping not about proto" Looks at 1100eHP ProtoGalSalt, w/ 600 DPS Proto AR Looks at 500 eHP Starter Fit w/ 450 DPS Yup ZERO CORRELATION. Even If Proto gear isn't the main cause of "The Stomps" its a huge cause in both the exacerbation of it, and of making it a great deal easier to do. I Live for Tears
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2192	Posted - 2014.12.05 00:46:00 - [38] - Quote B-F M wrote: Advanced fitting costs ~50K ISK, average winning payout (for me at least) is ~250K If I die 5 times I make 0 ISK. (Remember that we all want balanced matches - which would mean K/D that looks more like 12/10 than 29/2) Is this the Working As Intended? Is pub reward system designed around the idea that players should mostly run basic/militia - and if you run higher than basic you should expect to (over all, not per match) run at a loss/ or at best break even? Without knowing the intended design it's hard to suggest a 'fix'... I Imagine that advanced gear is prolly designed to break even during pubs, so That dying 5 times is breaking even. Hmm. Perhaps some price cuts on the advanced gears, and just leave the protos alone for sakes of leaving a protofit out of the reach of most wannabe pub stompers. I Imagine a 30% cut on costs of ADV gear would make ADV gear viable to run in Pubs I Live for Tears
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 897	Posted - 2014.12.06 02:24:00 - [39] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: KA24DERT wrote: An STD Gear mode was proposed by Micheal Epic as a solution to new players getting stomped, as a counter-proposal to Stevez just wanting a longer battle academy. Micheal's proposal won't solve anything, because "proto stomping" is less about the "proto" and more about skilled organized squads stomping the crap out of newberries and bad players. I never said I didn't want a standard mode for fear of stomping, I said that a standard mode won't stop stomping, and that segregating players according to battlefield effectiveness and battlefield experience is the correct solution to stomping of any sort. You're conflating the "issue" of proto in pubs with the issue of stomping in pubs, like many other people in this game. But none of that has anything to do with making a living in this game, for Veteran and Newberry alike. If Newberry can be a competent logi in a pub and help their team by dropping equipment and healing, Newberry should get paid. If Newberry gets paid enough to run PROTO, Newberry gets to run PROTO. Problem now is that Newberry can barely make enough to run ADV because payouts DO NOT incentivize victory. So Newberry idles in the MCC, and earns more ISK than if Newberry actually fought to win. "Proto-Stomping not about proto" Looks at 1100eHP ProtoGalSalt, w/ 600 DPS Proto AR Looks at 500 eHP Starter Fit w/ 450 DPS Yup ZERO CORRELATION. Even If Proto gear isn't the main cause of "The Stomps" its a huge cause in both the exacerbation of it, and of making it a great deal easier to do. Correlation is not causation. Yes, the top players in this game were the ones who butted heads constantly during the wars and made a **** ton of ISK. Yes, most of those top players have effectively infinite ISK and will run Proto in pubs all day every day. However almost any squad from OH, TEAM, IMPS, AE, WTF, CAP ACQ, or NYAN could run ADV or STD gear and STILL stomp the ever-living crap out of a bad team running PROTO. Does the Proto gear make the stomping worse? Yes, marginally. But losing is losing whether it's by 10 clones, 20 clones, 5 ticks or 10 ticks. Bad players will always lose against those players and the gear won't make an appreciable difference. An NBA team wearing sandals will always stomp a High School team wearing $500 sneakers, and that's that. But let's say you wanted to run Proto gear, or even ADV gear, and you weren't one of those top players, and you never got in on the ISK? The current situation is this: TOO BAD. And that's a problem that needs immediate attention. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
STABBEY Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 539	Posted - 2014.12.06 02:29:00 - [40] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. People are already permanently running proto suits LOL. It's the new players getting screwed the hardest by the lower payouts, Vets have isk stacked a mile high from PC paychecks and farming. Your excuse for said payouts is a poor 1 can we have Some1 that matters respond? Gÿú GÖ¦ Gÿñ Gäó © sç+(¬GÇ+¬)sç+ (-éGîú¦Ç_Gîú¦ü)ßòñ Gû¼Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉ-Vet-GòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉGòÉ+¦Gû¼Gû¼ +¬(GùÅ¦«¦âGÇó)¦¦ (GùúGùó)GöîGê¬GöÉ (a+ç'¦Ç-'¦ü)a+ç GöîGê¬GöÉ(Gùú_Gùó)GöîGê¬GöÉ

Lloyd Orfay Kinsho Swords Caldari State 259	Posted - 2014.12.06 03:03:00 - [41] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. Then there is no point in making tiered items where only certain players gets the best things, and the best things have no limitations or balancing factors. My Isk payout gets lower and lower the more I play, even though I'm getting better. Smells like success.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5374	Posted - 2014.12.06 03:14:00 - [42] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: It doesn't need to be changed. It has worked fine for more than two years. Why should we change a system that is not broken? I'd prefer people putting up a fight and be willing to step up their gear and continue to push. They could double payouts and it would make matches 10x as fun. People run proto a lot anyway, certainly the best players do in great numbers. Increasing the payouts allows people currently only able to afford STD suits to continue pushing to increase their level of gear to ADV or possibly proto. Not having ISK leads to people giving up quickly and boring matches. The best players have lots of ISK. Do the ******* math! I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 4901	Posted - 2014.12.06 03:58:00 - [43] - Quote Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. I was talking to one of my friends that I have introduced to Dust around 1.5 years ago and even though he would probably have enough SP to be competitive now, he just won't join again, and frankly, I don't blame him.
Stevez Wingyip DUST University Ivy League 22	Posted - 2014.12.06 06:34:00 - [44] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. I believe that video tutorials. Are the answer. I believe new players not having a massive basic HP disadvantage is the answer.
Stevez Wingyip DUST University Ivy League 22	Posted - 2014.12.06 06:36:00 - [45] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Michael Epic wrote: Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. There needs to be a standard gear mode where we can play when we're pissed off to blow off some steam or for the new players to get used to the maps and try out tactics. No, there doesn't. What's to stop bored "PROTO" stompers from "STD" stomping? The longer battle academy is the right solution for that. But also, all that BS is off topic. This thread is for addressing the pitiful PUB payouts that put this game on the verge of Pay2Win, or more aptly, pay to play. The gear will be equal then and at least you are dieing to someone who is "actually" better than you in that case.
Starlight Burner ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 48	Posted - 2014.12.06 09:45:00 - [46] - Quote When I afk in matches I barely break 50k. ****, I'm lucky if I even break 100k. Thank god for CCP Rattati!! Rogue Relics is my home away from home.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5669	Posted - 2014.12.06 11:10:00 - [47] - Quote ISK payouts are a joke. They are entirely dependent upon how expensive the gear is that your enemy is fielding. It has nothing to do with your effort. There is no significant reward for really trying. All of the decent payouts in pubs come when the enemy loses rafts of proto suits, modules or they lose many tanks. Your individual effort and contribution to victory mean jack all. There is no significant difference in the top slot on the winning team versus the losing team unless someone got proto happy. The rewards system is the most poorly thought out, and unrewarding system I have ever seen in any game. The fact that your paycheck in match is dependent upon your enemy being less risk averse is absolutely daft. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2014.12.06 11:19:00 - [48] - Quote STABBEY wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. People are already permanently running proto suits LOL. It's the new players getting screwed the hardest by the lower payouts, Vets have isk stacked a mile high from PC paychecks and farming. Your excuse for said payouts is a poor 1 can we have Some1 that matters respond? (That was rude) I ment that as in som1 that works for CCP Yep. People who aren't rich are the ones hit hardest by this. There's no excuse for the current payouts and they need to be buffed. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5380	Posted - 2014.12.06 18:54:00 - [49] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: STABBEY wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. People are already permanently running proto suits LOL. It's the new players getting screwed the hardest by the lower payouts, Vets have isk stacked a mile high from PC paychecks and farming. Your excuse for said payouts is a poor 1 can we have Some1 that matters respond? (That was rude) I ment that as in som1 that works for CCP Yep. People who aren't rich are the ones hit hardest by this. There's no excuse for the current payouts and they need to be buffed. It's no different from people that make $15/hr in the states that are so incredibly stupid they don't support raising the minimum wage. It's really no different, you have a bunch of people not doing **** because they can do nothing and make similar income. People that PC would be pushing to keep payouts low if their stance was driven by competition. Veteran PC players can keep their thumb on the masses as long as the payouts stay low. If someone needs this explained to them I have Microsoft Paint, I'll try to make it look like it was made with crayons as much as possible. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5380	Posted - 2014.12.06 18:56:00 - [50] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: ISK payouts are a joke. They are entirely dependent upon how expensive the gear is that your enemy is fielding. It has nothing to do with your effort. There is no significant reward for really trying. All of the decent payouts in pubs come when the enemy loses rafts of proto suits, modules or they lose many tanks. Your individual effort and contribution to victory mean jack all. There is no significant difference in the top slot on the winning team versus the losing team unless someone got proto happy. The rewards system is the most poorly thought out, and unrewarding system I have ever seen in any game. The fact that your paycheck in match is dependent upon your enemy being less risk averse is absolutely daft. Has this even been confirmed to still be the case? The payouts don't seem to be tied to ISK destroyed to me. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5672	Posted - 2014.12.06 20:05:00 - [51] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: ISK payouts are a joke. They are entirely dependent upon how expensive the gear is that your enemy is fielding. It has nothing to do with your effort. There is no significant reward for really trying. All of the decent payouts in pubs come when the enemy loses rafts of proto suits, modules or they lose many tanks. Your individual effort and contribution to victory mean jack all. There is no significant difference in the top slot on the winning team versus the losing team unless someone got proto happy. The rewards system is the most poorly thought out, and unrewarding system I have ever seen in any game. The fact that your paycheck in match is dependent upon your enemy being less risk averse is absolutely daft. Has this even been confirmed to still be the case? The payouts don't seem to be tied to ISK destroyed to me. it has never been changed in patch notes. My highest payouts to date have come from matches where I reaped a bloody harvest of no less than 8 HAV and dropships over the course of the match. and I still have yet to break 500k payout people keep claiming. two years, more or less AV and sentinel maxed. Never hit 500k. I think I may have hit 430k once. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1212	Posted - 2014.12.07 03:03:00 - [52] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: It doesn't need to be changed. It has worked fine for more than two years. Why should we change a system that is not broken? I am right there with you as one of the people saying its been fine BUT after the glitch with 1.9 deployment got fixed payouts have been terrible for people. I believe in making it tough to make a profit but the new payouts have made it near impossible for most people unless they are running BPOs.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 907	Posted - 2014.12.07 22:04:00 - [53] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: It doesn't need to be changed. It has worked fine for more than two years. Why should we change a system that is not broken? I am right there with you as one of the people saying its been fine BUT after the glitch with 1.9 deployment got fixed payouts have been terrible for people. I believe in making it tough to make a profit but the new payouts have made it near impossible for most people unless they are running BPOs. Been playing too much FW to notice, but people seem to be reporting that the payouts have been worse lately. However the payouts historically were not really great at all. It was still easy to play and lose ISK if you were actually playing to win. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
STYLIE77 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 293	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:21:00 - [54] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: ISK payouts are a joke. They are entirely dependent upon how expensive the gear is that your enemy is fielding. It has nothing to do with your effort. There is no significant reward for really trying. All of the decent payouts in pubs come when the enemy loses rafts of proto suits, modules or they lose many tanks. Your individual effort and contribution to victory mean jack all. There is no significant difference in the top slot on the winning team versus the losing team unless someone got proto happy. The rewards system is the most poorly thought out, and unrewarding system I have ever seen in any game. The fact that your paycheck in match is dependent upon your enemy being less risk averse is absolutely daft. Has this even been confirmed to still be the case? The payouts don't seem to be tied to ISK destroyed to me. It has to do with the amount of clones killed by both sides and the gear used, we just get a percentage of the total isk destroyed. Every clone has a set value, as does their gear and vehicles. The final part is your War Point contribution. For example, I get 5k WP and 1rst place in an all out proto stomp by both teams, game ends with both sides having about 10 clones left. In this scenario it is not uncommon for me to get 800k + in isk and 10k SP for my 5k WP contribution. Second place WP on my team only put up 2800 WP, their pay out will be around 500K Last place with 600 WP will get something like 225k Rough numbers but there is a big fall off in pay if there is a huge discrepancy in the WP contribution of team mates. One guy gets 2-3k more than 2nd place his pay is often nearly double that of that of the 2nd or 3rd place player. Last place with 25wp can often pay only 50-90k isk and rightfully so... TL:DR Clones Killed Value + Total Gear Value divided by CCP "Concord" tax = Total Isk Payout Pool Payout Pool divided by War Point value % = Pay out per WP The math is much more complex than that, but that is the basics of it. A few other variables such as TIME in match also contribute a bit to your SP and ISK payout... http://caughtyouflinching.ytmnd.com/
Eruditus 920 Nemo Malus Felix 961	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:52:00 - [55] - Quote STYLIE77 wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: ISK payouts are a joke. They are entirely dependent upon how expensive the gear is that your enemy is fielding. It has nothing to do with your effort. There is no significant reward for really trying. All of the decent payouts in pubs come when the enemy loses rafts of proto suits, modules or they lose many tanks. Your individual effort and contribution to victory mean jack all. There is no significant difference in the top slot on the winning team versus the losing team unless someone got proto happy. The rewards system is the most poorly thought out, and unrewarding system I have ever seen in any game. The fact that your paycheck in match is dependent upon your enemy being less risk averse is absolutely daft. Has this even been confirmed to still be the case? The payouts don't seem to be tied to ISK destroyed to me. It has to do with the amount of clones killed by both sides and the gear used, we just get a percentage of the total isk destroyed. Every clone has a set value, as does their gear and vehicles. The final part is your War Point contribution. For example, I get 5k WP and 1rst place in an all out proto stomp by both teams, game ends with both sides having about 10 clones left. In this scenario it is not uncommon for me to get 800k + in isk and 10k SP for my 5k WP contribution. Second place WP on my team only put up 2800 WP, their pay out will be around 500K Last place with 600 WP will get something like 225k Rough numbers but there is a big fall off in pay if there is a huge discrepancy in the WP contribution of team mates. One guy gets 2-3k more than 2nd place his pay is often nearly double that of that of the 2nd or 3rd place player. Last place with 25wp can often pay only 50-90k isk and rightfully so... TL:DR Clones Killed Value + Total Gear Value divided by CCP "Concord" tax = Total Isk Payout Pool Payout Pool divided by War Point value % = Pay out per WP The math is much more complex than that, but that is the basics of it. A few other variables such as TIME in match also contribute a bit to your SP and ISK payout... Stylie, I don't know if you are right or wrong. I would like the link to this so everyone can see it. You read this from someone at CCP right? Or did you just hear it from someone who heard it from someone etc? Link please. Until someone links a thread from CCP confirming how ISK payouts are calculated everyone is just talking out of their ass. "Stay gold, Ponyboy..."
Everything Dies Santa is coming...FOR BLOOD 1110	Posted - 2014.12.08 02:42:00 - [56] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: It's no different from people that make $15/hr in the states that are so incredibly stupid they don't support raising the minimum wage. What? Seriously, what? A person making $15/hour should want to see an increase to minimum wage? That's incredibly ignorant of how economics works -- raising the minimum wage in theory would only help those that are currently making the minimum (even then, that's only if the increase can offset the increased cost of goods that would result, which is unlikely) whereas everyone making above minimum wage would see their spending income decrease due to the higher price of goods and services. Now, if you're arguing that they're stupid for actually working for their money and not relying on government assistance, funny that this article came out today. Mike Patton is the greatest singer in music. Proof
xavier zor Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 326	Posted - 2014.12.08 02:51:00 - [57] - Quote No one likes being put up against a proto-squad CCP should keep the ISK system where it is, but change salvage system. To run proto every match would require somebody to have a KD of >13 if they are playing against militia-standard enemies and a KD of >9 if playing against prototype-advanced enemies 1.10 will kill stealthy scouts time to respec into an assault :D
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5682	Posted - 2014.12.08 08:42:00 - [58] - Quote xavier zor wrote: No one likes being put up against a proto-squad CCP should keep the ISK system where it is, but change salvage system. To run proto every match would require somebody to have a KD of >13 if they are playing against militia-standard enemies and a KD of >9 if playing against prototype-advanced enemies Raise ISK increase price on proto. Donih wait no the stompers already have infinite proto. This keeps new players from wanting to play because even the illusion of parity is impossible in the current system EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Boot Booter Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 1049	Posted - 2014.12.08 09:15:00 - [59] - Quote I agree with the OP. At least I believe that the distribution if isk should be looked at. It's very annoying to have a hard fought battle where you spend isk and effort, and only make 3 times the isk and be overall less isk efficient than an afk loser. I think we need to push more money towards the top of the leaderboards and give the winning team some sort of large winning bonus. I think this along with good matchmaking would be the recipe for revitalizing pubs.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 907	Posted - 2014.12.08 22:47:00 - [60] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: I agree with the OP. At least I believe that the distribution if isk should be looked at. It's very annoying to have a hard fought battle where you spend isk and effort, and only make 3 times the isk and be overall less isk efficient than an afk loser. I think we need to push more money towards the top of the leaderboards and give the winning team some sort of large winning bonus. I think this along with good matchmaking would be the recipe for revitalizing pubs. I think that'd do it. Something like 50-100% more ISK in the pot for the winning team, and tune the hypothetical payout curve more aggressively towards the top of the leaderboards. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 927	Posted - 2014.12.14 23:59:00 - [61] - Quote So the missions are out, and it's a roll of the dice whether or not the ISK rewards are worthwhile. The chance of extra ISK is nice, but I don't want income based on Chance. Pub payouts have to be modified to give top performers top payouts. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5469	Posted - 2014.12.15 01:00:00 - [62] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: xavier zor wrote: No one likes being put up against a proto-squad CCP should keep the ISK system where it is, but change salvage system. To run proto every match would require somebody to have a KD of >13 if they are playing against militia-standard enemies and a KD of >9 if playing against prototype-advanced enemies Raise ISK increase price on proto. Donih wait no the stompers already have infinite proto. This keeps new players from wanting to play because even the illusion of parity is impossible in the current system I think raising the price of proto (not in LP store) is a good idea IF they buff the payouts similar to the 50-100% mentioned above. Only4-5KDRpubbiesCanRunADV24/7\|PCplyrsRunPRO&smashSTD/MLTplyrs24/7. ThisIsHowIt'sAlwaysBeen,ThereforeMustStayThisWay.


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