DUST Search - [Question] Why haven't ISK payouts been buffed in Pubs?

Meeko Fent wrote:

KA24DERT wrote:

An STD Gear mode was proposed by Micheal Epic as a solution to new players getting stomped, as a counter-proposal to Stevez just wanting a longer battle academy.

Micheal's proposal won't solve anything, because "proto stomping" is less about the "proto" and more about skilled organized squads stomping the crap out of newberries and bad players.

I never said I didn't want a standard mode for fear of stomping, I said that a standard mode won't stop stomping, and that segregating players according to battlefield effectiveness and battlefield experience is the correct solution to stomping of any sort.

You're conflating the "issue" of proto in pubs with the issue of stomping in pubs, like many other people in this game.

But none of that has anything to do with making a living in this game, for Veteran and Newberry alike.

If Newberry can be a competent logi in a pub and help their team by dropping equipment and healing, Newberry should get paid.

If Newberry gets paid enough to run PROTO, Newberry gets to run PROTO.

Problem now is that Newberry can barely make enough to run ADV because payouts DO NOT incentivize victory.

So Newberry idles in the MCC, and earns more ISK than if Newberry actually fought to win.

"Proto-Stomping not about proto"

*Looks at 1100eHP ProtoGalSalt, w/ 600 DPS Proto AR*

*Looks at 500 eHP Starter Fit w/ 450 DPS*

Yup ZERO CORRELATION.

Even If Proto gear isn't the main cause of "The Stomps" its a huge cause in both the exacerbation of it, and of making it a great deal easier to do.


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KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 870	Posted - 2014.12.02 10:59:00 - [1] - Quote There's been enough threads already asking for higher payouts, and it makes sense. If you actually play to win in a pub match, it's hard to make a living. Die 10 times in an Advanced suit and you're in the red, even if you get 30 kills and top war points. I can't imagine what the newberries are going through. So, why hasn't CCP buffed payouts yet? This is easily fixed, as was made apparent during the last emergency hotfix to reduce payouts. Is this just a ploy to sell more BPOs and AUR gear? BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 871	Posted - 2014.12.02 22:45:00 - [2] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. That's silly. What happens when we get PvE? People will be grinding for their ISK in efficient organized raids, and then hit the pubs with all their prototype gear and officer/pirate drops. Saying "we don't want people running proto in pubs" is the same as saying "we don't want people having ISK". BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 871	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:21:00 - [3] - Quote Atiim wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. That's silly. What happens when we get PvE? People will be grinding for their ISK in efficient organized raids, and then hit the pubs with all their prototype gear and officer/pirate drops. Saying "we don't want people running proto in pubs" is the same as saying "we don't want people having ISK". He didn't say that they don't want people running PRO in PUBs, he simply said that he doesn't want people who only play PUBs to be able to run PRO gear 24/7. Which makes sense as you aren't engaging in anything of high-risk or long term importance. Not to mention that it would make ISK meaningless as everyone would have a theoretically infinite supply. Infinite ISK isn't a problem, it's what this game is based on. Pub contract payouts generate ISK out of thin air, and BPOs let you run infinite amounts of free gear. Now, in regards to pubs being a non "high-risk" activity, that's the self-fulfilling prophecy i'm talking about. It isn't high-risk because risk is not incentivized. The payouts aren't much better if you win than if you lose, and the payouts aren't much better if you're at the top or the bottom of the leaderboard. A decent ADV fit costs about 40-50k, die 10 times hacking/protecting a point and you're barely breaking even if you win, nevermind if you lose. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 874	Posted - 2014.12.03 10:23:00 - [4] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: ISK payouts should be more proportional to contribution. 30-10 and top of the board in advanced should generally break even. I don't know if we necessarily need to increase the size of the 'pie' so much as slice it differently (e.g. no payout for AFKers and others that don't leave the redline, give their ISK to high WP players instead). My issue is that "breaking even" isn't good enough. I don't know what the pot looks like for pubs, but yes, I agree with the idea that top Logis and Slayers should come away with the lion's share. Perhaps there could also be increased ISK rewards for time spent near an objective. Anything to put ISK into the wallets of the competitive player. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 875	Posted - 2014.12.04 22:15:00 - [5] - Quote ITT: People who want everyone to be poor because ISK is bad. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 877	Posted - 2014.12.04 23:02:00 - [6] - Quote Michael Epic wrote: Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. There needs to be a standard gear mode where we can play when we're pissed off to blow off some steam or for the new players to get used to the maps and try out tactics. No, there doesn't. What's to stop bored "PROTO" stompers from "STD" stomping? The longer battle academy is the right solution for that. But also, all that BS is off topic. This thread is for addressing the pitiful PUB payouts that put this game on the verge of Pay2Win, or more aptly, pay to play. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 877	Posted - 2014.12.04 23:41:00 - [7] - Quote Eruditus 920 wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Michael Epic wrote: Stevez Wingyip wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. This. I am sick of trying to get my friends into this game to have them get proto stomped after the battle academy and they never want to play again. There needs to be a MUCH longer battle academy so new players can get the SP they need to get the most basic HP skills. There needs to be a standard gear mode where we can play when we're pissed off to blow off some steam or for the new players to get used to the maps and try out tactics. No, there doesn't. What's to stop bored "PROTO" stompers from "STD" stomping? The longer battle academy is the right solution for that. But also, all that BS is off topic. This thread is for addressing the pitiful PUB payouts that put this game on the verge of Pay2Win, or more aptly, pay to play. So your against a standard mode for fear of stomping. But larger ISK payouts makes it easier for players to run proto for stomping. I'm afraid I don't follow your inconsistent logic. An STD Gear mode was proposed by Micheal Epic as a solution to new players getting stomped, as a counter-proposal to Stevez just wanting a longer battle academy. Micheal's proposal won't solve anything, because "proto stomping" is less about the "proto" and more about skilled organized squads stomping the crap out of newberries and bad players. I never said I didn't want a standard mode for fear of stomping, I said that a standard mode won't stop stomping, and that segregating players according to battlefield effectiveness and battlefield experience is the correct solution to stomping of any sort. You're conflating the "issue" of proto in pubs with the issue of stomping in pubs, like many other people in this game. But none of that has anything to do with making a living in this game, for Veteran and Newberry alike. If Newberry can be a competent logi in a pub and help their team by dropping equipment and healing, Newberry should get paid. If Newberry gets paid enough to run PROTO, Newberry gets to run PROTO. Problem now is that Newberry can barely make enough to run ADV because payouts DO NOT incentivize victory. So Newberry idles in the MCC, and earns more ISK than if Newberry actually fought to win. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 897	Posted - 2014.12.06 02:24:00 - [8] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: KA24DERT wrote: An STD Gear mode was proposed by Micheal Epic as a solution to new players getting stomped, as a counter-proposal to Stevez just wanting a longer battle academy. Micheal's proposal won't solve anything, because "proto stomping" is less about the "proto" and more about skilled organized squads stomping the crap out of newberries and bad players. I never said I didn't want a standard mode for fear of stomping, I said that a standard mode won't stop stomping, and that segregating players according to battlefield effectiveness and battlefield experience is the correct solution to stomping of any sort. You're conflating the "issue" of proto in pubs with the issue of stomping in pubs, like many other people in this game. But none of that has anything to do with making a living in this game, for Veteran and Newberry alike. If Newberry can be a competent logi in a pub and help their team by dropping equipment and healing, Newberry should get paid. If Newberry gets paid enough to run PROTO, Newberry gets to run PROTO. Problem now is that Newberry can barely make enough to run ADV because payouts DO NOT incentivize victory. So Newberry idles in the MCC, and earns more ISK than if Newberry actually fought to win. "Proto-Stomping not about proto" Looks at 1100eHP ProtoGalSalt, w/ 600 DPS Proto AR Looks at 500 eHP Starter Fit w/ 450 DPS Yup ZERO CORRELATION. Even If Proto gear isn't the main cause of "The Stomps" its a huge cause in both the exacerbation of it, and of making it a great deal easier to do. Correlation is not causation. Yes, the top players in this game were the ones who butted heads constantly during the wars and made a **** ton of ISK. Yes, most of those top players have effectively infinite ISK and will run Proto in pubs all day every day. However almost any squad from OH, TEAM, IMPS, AE, WTF, CAP ACQ, or NYAN could run ADV or STD gear and STILL stomp the ever-living crap out of a bad team running PROTO. Does the Proto gear make the stomping worse? Yes, marginally. But losing is losing whether it's by 10 clones, 20 clones, 5 ticks or 10 ticks. Bad players will always lose against those players and the gear won't make an appreciable difference. An NBA team wearing sandals will always stomp a High School team wearing $500 sneakers, and that's that. But let's say you wanted to run Proto gear, or even ADV gear, and you weren't one of those top players, and you never got in on the ISK? The current situation is this: TOO BAD. And that's a problem that needs immediate attention. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2014.12.06 11:19:00 - [9] - Quote STABBEY wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Direct isk payouts is something that is a question that needs to be answered carefully. For example we don't want people permanently running prototypes. People are already permanently running proto suits LOL. It's the new players getting screwed the hardest by the lower payouts, Vets have isk stacked a mile high from PC paychecks and farming. Your excuse for said payouts is a poor 1 can we have Some1 that matters respond? (That was rude) I ment that as in som1 that works for CCP Yep. People who aren't rich are the ones hit hardest by this. There's no excuse for the current payouts and they need to be buffed. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 907	Posted - 2014.12.07 22:04:00 - [10] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: It doesn't need to be changed. It has worked fine for more than two years. Why should we change a system that is not broken? I am right there with you as one of the people saying its been fine BUT after the glitch with 1.9 deployment got fixed payouts have been terrible for people. I believe in making it tough to make a profit but the new payouts have made it near impossible for most people unless they are running BPOs. Been playing too much FW to notice, but people seem to be reporting that the payouts have been worse lately. However the payouts historically were not really great at all. It was still easy to play and lose ISK if you were actually playing to win. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 907	Posted - 2014.12.08 22:47:00 - [11] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: I agree with the OP. At least I believe that the distribution if isk should be looked at. It's very annoying to have a hard fought battle where you spend isk and effort, and only make 3 times the isk and be overall less isk efficient than an afk loser. I think we need to push more money towards the top of the leaderboards and give the winning team some sort of large winning bonus. I think this along with good matchmaking would be the recipe for revitalizing pubs. I think that'd do it. Something like 50-100% more ISK in the pot for the winning team, and tune the hypothetical payout curve more aggressively towards the top of the leaderboards. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 927	Posted - 2014.12.14 23:59:00 - [12] - Quote So the missions are out, and it's a roll of the dice whether or not the ISK rewards are worthwhile. The chance of extra ISK is nice, but I don't want income based on Chance. Pub payouts have to be modified to give top performers top payouts. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate