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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8647
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Posted - 2014.11.30 06:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Victor Moody Stahl wrote:
Which is nearly as fast as the Amarr Scout... so I really don't see any reason you should be complaining about "shields not having enough HP", when they get way better regen, and superior mobility.
Until such time as we get an infantry portable Remote Shield Booster, Armor still technically has the better regen as it can be increased by logi's assisting a teammate. Additionally, shields do not recharge at all while under-fire, Armor does, so while shields have superior regen rates they have to either have to stay next to cover, or eliminate the enemy before the shield buffer fails. This leads to damage modifiers still being a largely better choice than shield extenders. Now, if shield recharge was changed to be a recharge time to full, with the rate decaying on a curve the closer you get to 100% shield capacity, (with current shield regen rates being the peak recharge rate) I could see there being no real problem with extenders' current HP values, and as stated earlier an infantry portable remote shield booster would be useful for determining overall armor vs shield balance. Advantages to being a shield suit: -quick/consistent regen -no movement penalty to primary tank -can use both armor and shield modules efficiently -does not rely on other suits for health when tanking -projectile/explosive resistance resistance(the type of weapons that are most prevalent in the game) Advantages to being in an armor suit -constant regeneration -larger values in tank modules -can use shield extenders relatively efficiently -can be repaired by external means -uh is resistant to certain specific weapons Seems pretty balance to me, if not it looks like the shield tankers have the advantage... Its also noteworthy that there are more anti-armor damage types in this game than Anti-shield types. Good thing I made a note of that in the post that I posted...
lol whoops.
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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THUNDERGROOVE
Fatal Absolution
1207
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Posted - 2014.11.30 06:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Bahirae Serugiusu wrote:two Enhanced Reactive Plates, one Complex Armor Plate, and one Enhanced Armor Plate
Enjoy barely winning one gunfight, just to die shortly after to a frontline suit.
While stacking plates is viable, it has nowhere near the same ability a well fit shield suit to take people on one after another.
If you want buffer, you're using the wrong tank type.
#BurnHuola
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8647
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Posted - 2014.11.30 07:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
I love shield tankers arguments against armor.
The fact that they think stacking complex armor plates is a viable thing on a Gallente Assault suits just gives you an understanding of how ignorant they are about armor tanking.
What's sad is that the same people do not know how to make a proper shield suit.
Just saying, The Caldari Assault is by far one of the better Assault Suits if you dont count the lame ass bonus.
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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jace silencerww
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
99
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Posted - 2014.11.30 09:11:00 -
[34] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Then buff Armour suits base shields.
Since a shield suit can get nearly as much armour a armour based suit, but not vise versa.
really? lol I have seem amarr & gal assault with over 1000 armor and high slots damage mods so I have yet to see a shield over 700. even then that is on the caldari sentinel also the max is 944 but with a shield rep of 30. lol |
jace silencerww
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
99
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Posted - 2014.11.30 09:25:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:I love shield tankers arguments against armor.
The fact that they think stacking complex armor plates is a viable thing on a Gallente Assault suits just gives you an understanding of how ignorant they are about armor tanking.
What's sad is that the same people do not know how to make a proper shield suit.
Just saying, The Caldari Assault is by far one of the better Assault Suits if you dont count the lame ass bonus.
amarr and gal assault can have 600 armor with 20+ reps or a logi to rep you while you can get up to over 1100 armor but there is no shield rep tool. yes caldari can have speed on there side. though there were the logi shield lav that could at one time rep shields. just remember both the ar and scr rifle get bonus to shields. though cr and rail rifle get armor bonus. if ccp were to come out with a shield rep tool but at less then half the armor rep per sec most shield guys would be quiet. |
Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
RISE of LEGION
2237
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Posted - 2014.11.30 09:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:working as intended. Shields have no movement penalty and regen much faster than armor.
Ahem.
Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
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Lloyd Orfay
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
239
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Posted - 2014.11.30 09:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Shields were designed NOT to have more or HP close to armour, but nearly all suits have a very pathetic shield delay time/ recharge value.
Besides this, one crucial reason shields are lacking is because the damage profiles for weaponry.
The two unique differences for armour and shielding would be excellent if it were that shielding had the most resistence to weaponry(even to ones meant to fight against it, do you really freaking think a 60 point damage weapon needs 30% more damage to shielding? No.... If anything it should only need 5%, or not be so steroided up on damage in the first place)
and armour the most HP.
Currently the two defenses don't even follow their own layout.
Shield delay time on a majority of suits is more than enough for someone to kill you 2-3 times in the time it takes for the shield to start regenerating.
The amount of recharge for the shield is the second crutch.
Armour, in some cases doesn't even have more HP than shielding.
The use of plates, like reactive and ferroscale are far more practical than the ordinary plates, yet in some cases the shield modules have more HP than the armour modules when compared at the same level (basic/proto/advance)
Stats are basically all over the place still.
My Isk payout gets lower and lower the more I play, even though I'm getting better. Smells like success.
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1252
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Posted - 2014.11.30 13:20:00 -
[38] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:working as intended. Shields have no movement penalty and regen much faster than armor. Ahem.
1.)That isn't even official yet.
2.)It will affect both tank types. If it happens at all...
3.)It is based on total HP, so armor modules will incur a larger penalty. Again, if it even happens...
Please, make my Opus pretty...
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8648
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Posted - 2014.11.30 14:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Maybe I should now result in exaggerating numbers and flinging around **** that's impractical since that's what this thread has boiler down to.
IT'S UNFAIR THAT CALDARI SUITS CAN ABUSE DAMAGE MODIFIERS AND INSTA BLAP ME!? NEVERMIND THERE IS A PENALTY TO STACKING THEM, ONLY PAY ATTENTION TO THE PREMISE!
I dont see the point in explaining anymore. If shield users think rolling around with complex plates out the ass is viable outside of very specific situations then I can't really help them.
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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Valor Goat
0
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Posted - 2014.11.30 15:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
lolshieldtanking
lolhighslots
lolpeoplesayingshieldtankinghasafarbetterregenthanarmortankerswhenthelattercanreach20hp/swithanunexistentdelay
loltheonlypeoplesayingshieldtankingisbeastlyarearmortankers
lolpeopleemphasizingmovementpenaltieswhenalmostnoneputsplatesanymoreasferroscalesandreactivesarewhereit'sat |
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Banjo Robertson
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
338
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Posted - 2014.11.30 15:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
If we look at an individual armor tank suit vs an individual shield tank suit:
There are only armor modules in low slots, no high slot armor modules.
There are shield modules for low and high slots.
Armor and Shield both have modules that increase their HP buffer. Armor gets more HP per module.
Armor and Shield both have moduls that increase the rate of HP per second. Shield gets more HP per second on suits that have a higher HP/second because of the percentage based system, while Armor modules increase everyone equally because of a set value.
Because of the way shields work, they also have modules that decrease the delay between the time your shields will start to regenerate, these again are percentage based off the base stats of your suit.
They are two different playstyles to be sure, and I dont think they need to be 'equal' in how they work. |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
447
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Posted - 2014.11.30 15:24:00 -
[42] - Quote
Bahirae Serugiusu wrote:The top Shield Extender in this game gives less HP then a Militia Armor Plate that does not seem right. Please buff shields I can't get my Caldari Assault to even come close in HP to a Gallente Assault. Please love shields <3
Base dropsuit recharge without any modules is worth at least 2 complex armor repair modules... yes, something is not right over here, your right.. 
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1253
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Posted - 2014.11.30 16:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
Y'all shieldfggts need to stop your whining.
Look at this fit!
Look at it!
This fit can go from 0 shields to 634 shields in a mere 17 seconds. The most perfectly fitted Gallassault ever can only dream of something like this.
It has 827 EHP and an insane regeneration rate. 45 HP/s with 634 sHP is REALLY REALLY good!
It can even avoid some scanners AND it moves faster than my Amassault can ever get if I want to have more than 550 HP. And I didn't even put any kin cats on there.
You guys have access to this trifecta of amazeballs HP, Regen, and Dampening, but you still complain? Get real!
I even put the "sooper dooper OP" Scrambler Rifle on it. Apparently it is so insanely OP, I figured you guys would like to use it too. I don't understand why you don't already... Its not like it has to be on an Amarr Assault in order to be a viable weapon or anything...
Please, make my Opus pretty...
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Lightning35 Delta514
48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE
109
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Posted - 2014.11.30 19:17:00 -
[44] - Quote
I have skilled into EVERY dropsuit in this game. (Std some adv and 1 proto). Of all, this is the reason I don't like cardari. Their shields are just to low. When we talk about a buff, I mean that caldari/shields need a BIG buff. Shields in total should be more than armor as they are the first one of defense and can't be repaired. If an amarr has lets 500 armor and 100 shield, calamari should have 100 armor and 550-600 shields. The more shields make up for the fact that shields can't be repaired and they do not recharge while taking damage. This actually could balance out the assault scrambler rifle.
Minmatar-assault combat rifle, flaylock pistol, tanked, quick. Before you know it..........your dead.......
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1254
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Posted - 2014.11.30 20:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:I have skilled into EVERY dropsuit in this game. (Std some adv and 1 proto). Of all, this is the reason I don't like cardari. Their shields are just to low. When we talk about a buff, I mean that caldari/shields need a BIG buff. Shields in total should be more than armor as they are the first one of defense and can't be repaired. If an amarr has lets 500 armor and 100 shield, calamari should have 100 armor and 550-600 shields. The more shields make up for the fact that shields can't be repaired and they do not recharge while taking damage. This actually could balance out the assault scrambler rifle.
I... don't even know how to react to this... I mean, words can't adequately desribe how moronic you are.
You know, I sometimes fool myself into thinking that this game has a somewhat intelligent playerbase, but then people like you come along, and shatter my delusions. Half the people that play this game are in a borderline vegetative state. All I can do... is thank you, I guess.
Please, make my Opus pretty...
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BL4CKST4R
La Muerte Eterna
Dark Taboo
3375
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Posted - 2014.11.30 21:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:I have skilled into EVERY dropsuit in this game. (Std some adv and 1 proto). Of all, this is the reason I don't like cardari. Their shields are just to low. When we talk about a buff, I mean that caldari/shields need a BIG buff. Shields in total should be more than armor as they are the first one of defense and can't be repaired. If an amarr has lets 500 armor and 100 shield, calamari should have 100 armor and 550-600 shields. The more shields make up for the fact that shields can't be repaired and they do not recharge while taking damage. This actually could balance out the assault scrambler rifle.
You obviously do not know how to shield tank, and although you have specced into every suit by the looks of it you have not specced far enough to truly understand how each works, you said you have only one proto suit and the rest standard or adv. So you should definitely finish your core skills and proto a shield and armor suit then compare. Each suit fits a different playstyle or have the same playstyle but do it differently. For example a shield cqc brawler suit would have fast repairs and delays and low hp, while a cqc brawler armor suit would have medium up, slightly lower speed and medium repairs.
Most shield tanks do not know how to fit shields due to how complex they are to get a good balance, although a armor rep tank is equally if not more complex to fit. The difference is the simplest way to armor tank is to stack a ton of armor plates, but unless you never armor tanked you would not understand how terrible this is of a fit, and although it has a ton of hp unless it's a scout it is a terrible way to fit any suit, specially an armor suit. Once you start properly fitting armor suits the hp difference between armor and shields is rarely over 100 (it's usually about the same hp), although an armor suit will tend to have more damage, and slower speed and repairs.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
188
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Posted - 2014.11.30 22:16:00 -
[47] - Quote
*Looks at fit*
DAAYUUUM
/walks away jelly of shield tanking
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Jack 3enimble
Titans of Phoenix
492
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Posted - 2014.11.30 22:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Only problem with it is that armor suits can stack dmg mods without sacrificing tank, something a shield user can't do. This is the only broken thing in the shield vs armor debate.
Shield suits need both the high and low slots to have an effective setup while armor suits only need their lows.
@ OP, if you don't know how to run shield suits don't run them. I'll still take shields over armor though |
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
95
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Except that an armor suit doesn't have to fit for regen to get regen thanks to the Repair Tool equipment, This is a tactic that requires two or more players to actually take advantage of. If you do not have at least two players (IE, the MAXIMUM BRICK and the dork with the repair tool), then this is impossible to actually take advantage of. Not only that, but fitting for MAXIMUM BRICK is generally assumed to involve Complex Armor Plates. Fitting multiple Complex Plates results in your speed going from "a little bit slower" to "slower than that fat ass you're trying to rep". Seriously, throw four Complex Plates onto anything, and watch your speed go down the drain. Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:as long as there remains no shield option there is no way to correctly compare them. False; there's a way to appropriately compare each method. That method is to compare them in isolation; IE, using only what modules can be fitted to a singular suit, without outside assistance- like repair tools.
MY actual point is that Logistics strength is what makes the difference here, you cannot compare the two systems in isolation as this isn't a 1v1 game, it is a team game. Comparing them both in isolation will not account for the fact that all matches are 16v16, not 1v1. You can't ignore potential effects of force multipliers when considering overall game balance, nor can you ignore potential gameplay styles.
Also my point with the Amarr logistics suit is this: remember when logistics had defensive bonuses, and the Amarr Logistics suit had the bonus to the Efficacy of Armor Repair Modules? When an Amarr Logi could stand there and deliver punishment back at enemies while shaking off minimal damage coming in? That's what I was referencing, but you either missed it, or dismissed old functionality as a reference for how base mechanics work.
At no point did I mean to suggest that base shield regen stats should be directly compared to armor regen through modules, and while I do admit my own experience is anecdotal, the fact that armor regen works under fire (and most importantly doesn't have an associated delay) still remains as a thorn in my side.
I am just suggesting changing the shield tanking mechanics to be more similar to how they work space-side, where they have worked with relatively few changes in quite some time. (I am not suggesting shield extenders provide the same buffer as armor plates, I'm suggesting that shield extenders provide the same buffer, but provide more regen (but less than actual regen modules)).
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3486
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:working as intended. Shields have no movement penalty and regen much faster than armor.
Complex ferroscarle plate has 75hp of armor, complex shield extender has 66hp.
> Check RND out here
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1255
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:44:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:working as intended. Shields have no movement penalty and regen much faster than armor. Complex ferroscarle plate has 75hp of armor, complex shield extender has 66hp.
G¥ä=ƒôû=ƒÿÄ
Your point being? Shields still regenerate faster.
Please, make my Opus pretty...
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Valor Goat
0
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:working as intended. Shields have no movement penalty and regen much faster than armor. Complex ferroscarle plate has 75hp of armor, complex shield extender has 66hp. G¥ä=ƒôû=ƒÿÄ Your point being? Shields still regenerate faster. A complex extender is far better than a complex ferroscale simply because base shield regen is so high.
Yeah, too bad it's almost twice its CPU and 1/3 plus its PG, and it has a 7% delay penalty, and of course the nonexistent delay of armor repping. |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
551
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Valor Goat wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:working as intended. Shields have no movement penalty and regen much faster than armor. Complex ferroscarle plate has 75hp of armor, complex shield extender has 66hp. G¥ä=ƒôû=ƒÿÄ Your point being? Shields still regenerate faster. A complex extender is far better than a complex ferroscale simply because base shield regen is so high. Yeah, too bad it's almost twice its CPU and 1/3 plus its PG, and it has a 7% delay penalty, and of course the nonexistent delay of armor repping.
3 complex 7% of added delay doesn't even equate to a second longer. Besides you have all those lows to use cpu and pg mods...
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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Valor Goat
0
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Valor Goat wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:working as intended. Shields have no movement penalty and regen much faster than armor. Complex ferroscarle plate has 75hp of armor, complex shield extender has 66hp. G¥ä=ƒôû=ƒÿÄ Your point being? Shields still regenerate faster. A complex extender is far better than a complex ferroscale simply because base shield regen is so high. Yeah, too bad it's almost twice its CPU and 1/3 plus its PG, and it has a 7% delay penalty, and of course the nonexistent delay of armor repping. 3 complex 7% of added delay doesn't even equate to a second longer. Besides you have all those lows to use cpu and pg mods...
Whereas you have highs for damage mods. |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
551
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:54:00 -
[55] - Quote
Valor Goat wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:
3 complex 7% of added delay doesn't even equate to a second longer. Besides you have all those lows to use cpu and pg mods...
Whereas you have highs for damage mods.
Wheras you have lows for speed, regulation, armor, reps, stamina, dampening, cpu, pg...Seems pretty fair.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
442
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:56:00 -
[56] - Quote
I think that if they were to remove the delay penalty to Shield Extenders Shields and Armor would be balanced. Many reasons -- but Ya'll are probably tired of text walls so I'll leave it at that.
my 2 isk. |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
551
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:00:00 -
[57] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:I think that if they were to remove the delay penalty to Shield Extenders Shields and Armor would be balanced. Many reasons -- but Ya'll are probably tired of text walls so I'll leave it at that.
my 2 isk.
No one is ever tired of walls of texts, say why so I can poke holes in your idea.
In all honesty I want to know because from what I've made in profits it seems that the 7% does very little to the actual delays.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
806
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:18:00 -
[58] - Quote
More HP Creep?
If Armor is deemed superior to Shields, then nerfing Armor HP would probably be better for balance than buffing Shield HP. |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
551
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:52:00 -
[59] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:More HP Creep?
If Armor is deemed superior to Shields, then nerfing Armor HP would probably be better for balance than buffing Shield HP.
In terms of modules, kind of not really.
In terms of suits, not at all. Shield suits are way superior to armor suits.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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Jack 3enimble
Titans of Phoenix
492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:27:00 -
[60] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Vitantur Nothus wrote:More HP Creep?
If Armor is deemed superior to Shields, then nerfing Armor HP would probably be better for balance than buffing Shield HP. In terms of modules, kind of not really. In terms of suits, not at all. Shield suits are way superior to armor suits.
This made me lol... |
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