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[Suggestion] How to increase the quality of gameplay in pubs

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B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:06:00 - [1] - Quote Remove proto from pubs, because it is by definition OP; because everyone hates being protostomped; and because that high-end gear belongs only in FW and PC. The reality of players running proto (and especially, squads of proto) in pub matches is just an incredibly poor experience for both sides. The winning side has an utterly hollow victory (of course you won, even at great cost). The losing side faces a blob of almost indestructible strafe-machines and are forced to decide between: Bring out your own expensive gear and settle in for an expensive, PC-like battle Stay in the same gear and take the beating Who wants to lose around a million ISK in a pub because they just didn't want to throw in the towel again? It would be like a multiplayer racing game where every 3rd or 4th match your team of Prius, Mini and Camry drivers went up against Team Ferrari and were expected to compete. We can all agree that would be a stupid, unbalanced and ultimately pointless event. So why does Dust allow the exact same thing? We talk about balance - CCP, CPM and the community pore over the numbers in minute detail, comparing like for like (i.e., basic CR vs basic AR) which is reasonable - except what about basic AR vs Kaalikiota RR? Is that balanced? Because that is the scenario that actually happens, very often, in pubs. Proposal* Use meta level to restrict proto suits, weapons and equipment to FW and PC, where they belong. Is there a strong reason why this would be a bad idea? There are countless "Protostomping is bullshit" threads on here, this seems like an reasonable solution. *Well, with the exception of hardcore scrubs who actually enjoy winning with a grossly unfair advantage - but we should ignore those guys because they shouldn't be the customers who are primarily catered to, however vocal they may be. GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
Bax Zanith Sinfonia1898 219	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:25:00 - [2] - Quote My signature explains public matches perfectly well. Unless your protostomping, then the only useful thing you really can do is put on a starter fit, run out in the middle of the map and wait for someone to one shot you. Then do it over and over again until the end of the "match", because unless you have a full proto suit, your worthless. Your only there to pad the KDRs of vetteren players, that's the only role you serve in this game if you don't protostomp. That's how it is, and I sadly don't ever see it changing. Your either the cow or the butcher. "You're either the cow or the butcher."
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:33:00 - [3] - Quote Bax Zanith wrote: My signature explains public matches perfectly well. Unless your protostomping, then the only useful thing you really can do is put on a starter fit, run out in the middle of the map and wait for someone to one shot you. Then do it over and over again until the end of the "match", because unless you have a full proto suit, your worthless. Your only there to pad the KDRs of vetteren players, that's the only role you serve in this game if you don't protostomp. That's how it is, and I sadly don't ever see it changing. Your either the cow or the butcher. Sure, but one way for that to change would be the above proposal, do see any problems with it as a solution? GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
Fibo Gjenn UNIVERSAL BANDAGE 19	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:39:00 - [4] - Quote Run with a BAR and Bolt in tanked Gal Scout Basic and repper. Team up with a Cal Assult and a RR. Find high grund, pref with an object for cover. Kill loners or pairs of red berries, any more, run n' regroup. Makes for reasonably priced fun.
CharacterNameWasTaken 246	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:03:00 - [5] - Quote ivd said there needs to be a solo only mode added because people are more likelt to run cheap stuff while soloing. "Stop it the bouncing is making me uncomfortable" - Senji/Crow
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 992	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:05:00 - [6] - Quote Small change. Only proto suits, not proto everything. SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:07:00 - [7] - Quote Syeven Reed wrote: Small change. Only proto suits, not proto everything. Not weapons? GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
loumanchew Ametat Security Amarr Empire 174	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:09:00 - [8] - Quote The problem is not the protosuits, it is the squads in pub matches. It should be solo queue only.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Capital Punishment. 570	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:13:00 - [9] - Quote There should be a system like there is in FW in EVE. Certain ships are only allowed in certain plexes. Frigates can enter any complex but battleships can only enter large complexes. If something similar could be done with gear i'd be all for it.
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:20:00 - [10] - Quote loumanchew wrote: The problem is not the protosuits, it is the squads in pub matches. It should be solo queue only. That'd be a nice addition, and hopefully we'll see that one day. Given the current, team-oriented pub matches we have today, don't you think that removing proto so that squads can only run at best Advanced suits would be less bad than the current proto stomps we get - which everyone seems to hate? GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ

B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:24:00 - [11] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: There should be a system like there is in FW in EVE. Certain ships are only allowed in certain plexes. Frigates can enter any complex but battleships can only enter large complexes. If something similar could be done with gear i'd be all for it. Well we have meta levels, surely that could be used.. Either a hard restriction, e.g. No items over meta 6 or whatever, or a sum of your fitted suit's meta level.. So you could in theory run a proto suit or weapon or piece of equipment, but just not the absolutely maxed out, full proto fit. GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
KING CHECKMATE Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 5909	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:30:00 - [12] - Quote Whats OP is teamwork. For pubs, restrict a squad to 3. Solved /end thread The best Damage mod is a HEADSHOT....
loumanchew Ametat Security Amarr Empire 174	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:31:00 - [13] - Quote B-F M wrote: loumanchew wrote: The problem is not the protosuits, it is the squads in pub matches. It should be solo queue only. That'd be a nice addition, and hopefully we'll see that one day. Given the current, team-oriented pub matches we have today, don't you think that removing proto so that squads can only run at best Advanced suits would be less bad than the current proto stomps we get - which everyone seems to hate? I think it would be like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound. Even if everyone is given the same suits, organized squads will always farm redberries out of any meaningful interest for this game, diminishing player base, and then saying that there is not enough of a player base to add more joining options. P.S. However, I would pay dearly to see a mode where solo joiners use proto suits on militia-only squads. A guy can dream right?
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2093	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:39:00 - [14] - Quote I feel the most aggravating thing to me is those asshats running boundlesses in militia heavies. Unless proto is removed from pubs wholesale, that will still be an issue. I think that more then this must be done however. Squads must be matched in matches with equal numbers of squads. SP should be roughly matched so me and my maxed core skills aren't going to throttle the newbs in my starter fit. The current system should stay in place to also help match bad and bad, good and good players. Because you wanted to be something you're not. A hero. Do you feel like one now?
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:39:00 - [15] - Quote Updated OP to more clearly define problem. GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
loumanchew Ametat Security Amarr Empire 174	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:48:00 - [16] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Whats OP is teamwork. For pubs, restrict a squad to 3. Solved /end thread Hardly solves anything, case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzxJL6UxeXo
Charli Chaplin jr F0RSAKEN EMPIRE. 17	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:21:00 - [17] - Quote Even ADV sqds are deadly if they know how to play. i agree with you that proto sqds are hard to beat but everyting has a counter. if you know that theyre together bring up REs, if they're spread out get a gal scout and put damps and a shotgun on it and you will be alright even if you're solo using ADV or STD it can easily be done. you might not win but its typical. tbh if i'm soloing vs Nyain or 1.U.P and i know theyre gonna bring out Cal assaults i'm gonna get a STD SR and REs on my cal scout and theyre dead. those dudes stick together too much in ambush thats why i get so much RE kills on em when i solo. I think that STD n MLT users shoold play together and ADV shoold play with proto. it might be hard to use an ADV suit n go after proto but if the guy is using a cal scout don't try to take him down with a CR, if he's using a gal assault up close don't go try to kill him w/ a tac AR or a SR. go there with an assault CR. simple as that. ACCEPT YOUR FATE LIKE I ACCEPTED MINE.
Chris Adrell Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:24:00 - [18] - Quote loumanchew wrote: The problem is not the protosuits, it is the squads in pub matches. It should be solo queue only. That's an idea. Mix and match squads in their own match ups..or make squads only valid for FW..
Aidualc LATINOS KILLERS CORP Dark Taboo 3	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:25:00 - [19] - Quote IF you need a "proto suit" to win in a public match... you are a bad player, that-¦s all ! loose 2 proto suit = - $400,000 ISK winning reward = 330,000 IKS Profit = -70,000k. "bad bussines". Play Planetary Conquest. Loose 7 proto suit = -1,400,000 ISK winning reward = 3,500,000 ISK Profit = 2,100,000 ISK "nice work" Just numbers.
Chris Adrell Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:30:00 - [20] - Quote Aidualc wrote: Play Planetary Conquest. Not everyone is "gewd" or fortunate enough to play, or be able to play, Planetary Conquest(Which I am guessing is what people mean when they say "PC", rather than Public Contracts)..

B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:45:00 - [21] - Quote Charli Chaplin jr wrote: Even ADV sqds are deadly if they know how to play. Absolutely, even basic sqds are - and so they should be, otherwise we're saying "no one should be allowed to be skilled and/or work together". All I'm saying is that restricting proto usage in pubs would bring the situation into a more reasonable state. It wouldn't make pub life easy, just alleviate the problem somewhat. Good players will still be good, good squads will still be good, just without ALSO having maxed out gear on top of all that. GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
TritusX PH4NT0M5 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 20:57:00 - [22] - Quote Ok, let me combine everything for you. What you guys seem to want is to nerf squads and q-sync. That is OP. Three squads of Nyain San, Fatal Absolution, and Molon Labe Q-Syncing together is a nightmare. They just use proto to show they can. The whole coordination of it allows them to stomp in anything, even militia gear. A reasonable OP squad is two logi, two sentinels, one scout and one assault. Three of these that all work together against one team that has solo players and a squad will be horribly uneven. The OP squads just rep the sentinels and assaults, farm the WP for orbitals, and the kills in CQC and the kills from the assault will be enough. An extra proto scout will just ruin the day. He might run in with a SG and send passives left and right to ultimately destroy the whole other team. If only you could attach RE to yourself and kamikaze a tank
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:06:00 - [23] - Quote TritusX wrote: Ok, let me combine everything for you. What you guys seem to want is to nerf squads and q-sync. That is OP. Three squads of Nyain San, Fatal Absolution, and Molon Labe Q-Syncing together is a nightmare. They just use proto to show they can. The whole coordination of it allows them to stomp in anything, even militia gear. Well yeah, that's the way the thread has gone in spite of the OP haha So do people think that in the proto stomping equation (that is, squads and/or qsynced squads + proto gear) the proto gear has little to no impact and is not worth discussing? Because I disagree with that. Teams and squads win games, but full-proto gear (generally) wins individual confrontations. I'm talking 800ehp assault with proto rifle vs 400ehp assault, basic rifle. Maybe if solo players had better odds in individual confrontation we'd see a reduction in the impact of squads/qsyncing. GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5134	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:33:00 - [24] - Quote Logic failure: Vehicles are balanced to fight proto AV. So proto AV cannot be deployed... Ok enjoy the new flavor of stomp while we practice with ADV AAV. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
RayRay James Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 727	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:39:00 - [25] - Quote Guns are OP Suits are OP Squads are OP Equipment is OP I have the solution..... Uninstall the game and leave. FFS people, how much of the game do you want to destroy? You're like the mom who gets mad because a better kid made her kid look like a fool on the soccer field and then yells at the coach that the better kid shouldn't be playing. I run blueprint, in pubs, nearly all the time. I kill proto suits... ALL. THE. TIME. This isn't a "get gud" moment. This is a "suck it up and learn" moment. You will die, in a suit that costs 10K. You will kill suits that cost 200+K. Who really wins and loses in that scenario? Your KD/R doesn't matter so put away your **** and measuring tape.
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:41:00 - [26] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Logic failure: Vehicles are balanced to fight proto AV. So proto AV cannot be deployed... Ok enjoy the new flavor of stomp while we practice with ADV AAV. True if all proto is banned, but I was thinking that a limitations on total meta level of your fitting would work (as this would allow some proto, just not full proto). As for the viability of non-proto AV, ADV swarms have been recently buffed to reduce the gap between them and proto and when used in conjunction with other AV they work just fine. But yeah, you're right that it would undo that balancing effort to a degree. But thank you for actually arguing my original point GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 75	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:52:00 - [27] - Quote Meta Level Cap seems to be the most balanced idea. Squads should be encouraged. Either remove proto altogether or put a cap in place to limit the gear. Case in point - these APEX suits with basic gear are hardly qualified to be Protostompers. We all know Academy is a joke. It's brutal enough coming into Pubs going against experienced squads, or even lone wolves, without adding the proto level to it. There should be a natural progression from Academy to Pubs to FW to PC. FW and PC are where the limits are lifted, no holds barred 'big boys club'. Pubs should have some form of limitations to balance the field.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4981	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:55:00 - [28] - Quote Bax Zanith wrote: My signature explains public matches perfectly well. Unless your protostomping, then the only useful thing you really can do is put on a starter fit, run out in the middle of the map and wait for someone to one shot you. Then do it over and over again until the end of the "match", because unless you have a full proto suit, your worthless. Your only there to pad the KDRs of vetteren players, that's the only role you serve in this game if you don't protostomp. That's how it is, and I sadly don't ever see it changing. Your either the cow or the butcher. I rarely ever fit proto and I have no problems stomping all of you. This is going to come as a shock, but it may have more to do with the fact you aren't very good. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:57:00 - [29] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Meta Level Cap seems to be the most balanced idea. Squads should be encouraged. Either remove proto altogether or put a cap in place to limit the gear. Case in point - these APEX suits with basic gear are hardly qualified to be Protostompers. Exactly. Logi could still run proto reps; Sniper still running proto rifle, etc.. GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 891	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:02:00 - [30] - Quote Proto isn't the problem, squads are the problem, matchmaking is the problem, blueberries are the problem.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 737	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:25:00 - [31] - Quote The main effect of removing Prototype equipment from pubs will be the removal of joyously ganking fools for 150k ISK a pop. NEWS FLASH: Those competitive, organized, "tryhard" squads will wreck your day in MILITIA if they had to. Squad up, get good, and pray to the matchmaking gods. Meanwhile I'll be praying to CCP for the introduction of PVE so that bad players have something else to do other than wrecking my favorite game via forum warrior BS.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 78	Posted - 2014.11.18 22:44:00 - [32] - Quote You're right about the 'tryhard' squads, or veteran squads, or whatever label we're attaching to them. I think you're confusing those of us who are trying to balance the game with those who are QQing about losing. Many of you can, and do, gank me with MLT gear. The issue is trying to take out a proto-armor-tanked anything while trying to figure out the game. You know why blueberries are hanging out in the redline shooting each other? It's because that's the only time they can line up a shot for more than half a second without getting instablapped. They're still trying to figure this game out, lol. Pubs should be the next step up from Academy, a step down from FW. Pubs should not be simply FW with ISK. I'll say it again. Squadding up should be encouraged. Proto in pubs is entirely unnecessary and should be discouraged.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 738	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:05:00 - [33] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: You're right about the 'tryhard' squads, or veteran squads, or whatever label we're attaching to them. I think you're confusing those of us who are trying to balance the game with those who are QQing about losing. Many of you can, and do, gank me with MLT gear. The issue is trying to take out a proto-armor-tanked anything while trying to figure out the game. You know why blueberries are hanging out in the redline shooting each other? It's because that's the only time they can line up a shot for more than half a second without getting instablapped. They're still trying to figure this game out, lol. Pubs should be the next step up from Academy, a step down from FW. Pubs should not be simply FW with ISK. I'll say it again. Squadding up should be encouraged. Proto in pubs is entirely unnecessary and should be discouraged. The NPE is solvable by a longer/better battle academy. It's pitifully short currently, making it 5-10 times longer would help greatly. Blueberries sitting in the redline can be helped by actually rewarding people for their performance in public contracts. Blueberries in FW try their best because the LP payout is MUCH higher when you win. Losing a public contract is still money in the bank, so why try? If you're upset about getting instablapped, now you're talking about nerfing the rifles and HMG about 30% across the board, or getting rid of aim assist. Removing Proto from pubs will not really help those issues, and will just result in people complaining about "Advanced Stomping".
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 1116	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:08:00 - [34] - Quote So me the lonewolf should be punished the same as a squad? Your game f'ing sucks, but I'll still play it, damn you! Turns out I wont.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 78	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:23:00 - [35] - Quote Henchmen21 wrote: So me the lonewolf should be punished the same as a squad? How would either you or squads be punished? Please elaborate.
Michael Arck 6050	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:33:00 - [36] - Quote I can agree to a extent, but the problem lies in the meta. It also lies in SP and knowledge base, with a little of AUR thrown in. The meta and SP works in congruence. Meta shapes game differently through each patch, which impacts solo players. Squads dont see this, at least seasoned ones because their "total defense" of unit pads their efficiency. The impact of forums on Dust is life shortening of the game itself. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
xavier zor Boundless Mercenary 298	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:38:00 - [37] - Quote Bax Zanith wrote: My signature explains public matches perfectly well. Unless your protostomping, then the only useful thing you really can do is put on a starter fit, run out in the middle of the map and wait for someone to one shot you. Then do it over and over again until the end of the "match", because unless you have a full proto suit, your worthless. Your only there to pad the KDRs of vetteren players, that's the only role you serve in this game if you don't protostomp. That's how it is, and I sadly don't ever see it changing. Your either the cow or the butcher. lol git gud anybody, ANYBODY can stomp in proto gear. I used to but it is boring as hell since the matches are one sided....if they (enemy) is redlined in the first 10 ticks of the enemy MCC then i auto-leave. Yes, we all go through that phase of proto-stomping and losing alot of ISK then that is when it stops...when it loses its fun. So, no. If you don't have a full proto suit you are not worthless 34/4 is my best this week using an assault M-1 36/5 is my second best this week using a fully proto'd scout ck.0 Point proven Highest plasma cannon kill: 132 metres
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 873	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:42:00 - [38] - Quote protostomping is a verygood reason we have so many heavies now. the cows r tired of getting butchered. heavies R shining beacons. now stfu about them killing you since you can see them a mile away.
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 395	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:43:00 - [39] - Quote As a logi I ain't trying to be limited to only one or two equipment because someone sucks. What's op is I raised all my cores and specialized in a role, unlike most blueberries who put all their sp in 10 random weps and 5 suits before raising any cores. I also learned the maps and know how to squad, and understand that 80% of this game has become defense against scouts and adjusted. There is too small a player base to split the groups to team play vs. solo. The only reason why most ppl don't run proto is they can't spamit when they die like the PC corps. My advice to CCP would be to raise the isk payouts by 5 - 10%. Raise also buyback isk 10 - 20%, the fact that we get 23k for and officer wep is stupid. It should be 200-300k, maybe even more! CCP could also make new splash screens while waiting for battle to load the stress how to spend sp, the difference of damage types, how ewar works, etc.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 78	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:44:00 - [40] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Kensai Dragon wrote: You're right about the 'tryhard' squads, or veteran squads, or whatever label we're attaching to them. I think you're confusing those of us who are trying to balance the game with those who are QQing about losing. Many of you can, and do, gank me with MLT gear. The issue is trying to take out a proto-armor-tanked anything while trying to figure out the game. You know why blueberries are hanging out in the redline shooting each other? It's because that's the only time they can line up a shot for more than half a second without getting instablapped. They're still trying to figure this game out, lol. Pubs should be the next step up from Academy, a step down from FW. Pubs should not be simply FW with ISK. I'll say it again. Squadding up should be encouraged. Proto in pubs is entirely unnecessary and should be discouraged. The NPE is solvable by a longer/better battle academy. It's pitifully short currently, making it 5-10 times longer would help greatly. Blueberries sitting in the redline can be helped by actually rewarding people for their performance in public contracts. Blueberries in FW try their best because the LP payout is MUCH higher when you win. Losing a public contract is still money in the bank, so why try? If you're upset about getting instablapped, now you're talking about nerfing the rifles and HMG about 30% across the board, or getting rid of aim assist. Removing Proto from pubs will not really help those issues, and will just result in people complaining about "Advanced Stomping". Now I'm starting to think you're just trolling for 'lulz', lol Putting a meta cap in place would allow people to see that it's not the gear so much as personal skill and SP placement. There are many who are beasts in MLT gear, there are also many who are only beast due to proto gear. We're saying that there should be progression as you grow. You say Academy should be fixed? Sure, but how to do that? Keep us in Academy until 5mil SP? Now you have the exact same problems but starting out in Academy. After a month or three of playing the same maps you don't think I'd be stomping that guy who started yesterday? Pubs should be the next step. Mu, as imperfect as it is, is applied in pubs and not FW for a reason. The intent is to balance pub matches. I guess I see it as: Academy = Little League Pubs = College FW = Minor League PC = Major League Or something along those lines. Honestly, I'm not seeing why someone would be opposed to a meta level cap. If you're good, you're still good. If you're bad, you can at least have a chance. I'm not advocating an 'easy mode', or asking you to not try hard. Just looking for a progression that makes sense.

B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 58	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:57:00 - [41] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Honestly, I'm not seeing why someone would be opposed to a meta level cap. If you're good, you're still good. If you're bad, you can at least have a chance. I'm not advocating an 'easy mode', or asking you to not try hard. Just looking for a progression that makes sense. I feel like for all the disagreement in this thread - although a lot of that is more general comments about squads/qsyncing, team balancing, obligatory git guds, etc - if CCP were to actually roll out a meta level cap for pubs, the majority of players would welcome the change. GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 1116	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:38:00 - [42] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Henchmen21 wrote: So me the lonewolf should be punished the same as a squad? How would either you or squads be punished? Please elaborate. I wouldn't be able to use proto gear just the same as the pub-stomping squads. I am not the problem, neither is proto gear. I remember when squads were 4 people, sure from time to time there was a one sided match but nothing along the lines of the every single match stomping we endure now. Your game f'ing sucks, but I'll still play it, damn you! Turns out I wont.
Michael Arck 6051	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:41:00 - [43] - Quote B-F M wrote: Kensai Dragon wrote: Honestly, I'm not seeing why someone would be opposed to a meta level cap. If you're good, you're still good. If you're bad, you can at least have a chance. I'm not advocating an 'easy mode', or asking you to not try hard. Just looking for a progression that makes sense. I feel like for all the disagreement in this thread - although a lot of that is more general comments about squads/qsyncing, team balancing, obligatory git guds, etc - if CCP were to actually roll out a meta level cap for pubs, the majority of players would welcome the change. That majority are most likely in game, definitively not on forums. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 79	Posted - 2014.11.19 01:34:00 - [44] - Quote Just some quick numbers to illustrate what I'm trying to say. These are clearly not the best setups for a suit, just throwing numbers out for example. Standard AR = 453.2 dps vs shield, 370.8 dps vs armor Duvolle AR = 498.5 dps / shield, 407.9 dps vs armor (chosen for no Prof. requirement) Standard brick tanked Gal Med with basic shield and armor = 230.1 shield, 624.3 armor, total 854.3 eHP Proto Gal Assault with 3x Complex Shield, 2x Complex Armor, 3x Enhanced Armor = 411.6 shield, 1003.8 Armor, total 1415.3 eHP Standard vs Proto TTK ~= 3.6 seconds Proto vs Standard TTK ~= 2 seconds *Not only does the newberry have less experience, he also has to shoot you for almost twice as long to get the kill.* If someone kills your protosuit while running MLT/Standard gear, that's really saying something. If you kill a MLT/Standard while running Proto gear, well, congratulations I guess...
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 221	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:48:00 - [45] - Quote B-F M wrote: For the intelligence of this post there are a lot of stupid people commenting. Most of which are the guilty parties Pffft....... Proto Suits lol Adv Omni Merc is the way to go
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 221	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:49:00 - [46] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Just some quick numbers to illustrate what I'm trying to say. These are clearly not the best setups for a suit, just throwing numbers out for example. Standard AR = 453.2 dps vs shield, 370.8 dps vs armor Duvolle AR = 498.5 dps / shield, 407.9 dps vs armor (chosen for no Prof. requirement) Standard brick tanked Gal Med with basic shield and armor = 230.1 shield, 624.3 armor, total 854.3 eHP Proto Gal Assault with 3x Complex Shield, 2x Complex Armor, 3x Enhanced Armor = 411.6 shield, 1003.8 Armor, total 1415.3 eHP Standard vs Proto TTK ~= 3.6 seconds Proto vs Standard TTK ~= 2 seconds *Not only does the newberry have less experience, he also has to shoot you for almost twice as long to get the kill.* If someone kills your protosuit while running MLT/Standard gear, that's really saying something. If you kill a MLT/Standard while running Proto gear, well, congratulations I guess... that math is assuming every bullet hits Pffft....... Proto Suits lol Adv Omni Merc is the way to go
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 80	Posted - 2014.11.19 07:08:00 - [47] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: Kensai Dragon wrote: Just some quick numbers to illustrate what I'm trying to say. These are clearly not the best setups for a suit, just throwing numbers out for example. Standard AR = 453.2 dps vs shield, 370.8 dps vs armor Duvolle AR = 498.5 dps / shield, 407.9 dps vs armor (chosen for no Prof. requirement) Standard brick tanked Gal Med with basic shield and armor = 230.1 shield, 624.3 armor, total 854.3 eHP Proto Gal Assault with 3x Complex Shield, 2x Complex Armor, 3x Enhanced Armor = 411.6 shield, 1003.8 Armor, total 1415.3 eHP Standard vs Proto TTK ~= 3.6 seconds Proto vs Standard TTK ~= 2 seconds *Not only does the newberry have less experience, he also has to shoot you for almost twice as long to get the kill.* If someone kills your protosuit while running MLT/Standard gear, that's really saying something. If you kill a MLT/Standard while running Proto gear, well, congratulations I guess... that math is assuming every bullet hits Of course it is. It's also assuming no DMG mods and no proficiency or sharpshooter skills, all of which would quite reasonably weigh even more grossly in favor of the proto user. That's why I stated that these are just quick numbers to illustrate the imbalance. A veteran player would most likely have all these skills and be using them even in MLT / STD fits.
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 341	Posted - 2014.11.19 08:23:00 - [48] - Quote Hey, working on my proto assault and I have to say... I hate the idea of banning Protos from public because they are not much of a problem anymore. Besides I play with a squad in pubs, should that mean I get banned from pubs? surely anyone saying that must be joking. I've never had the luck to manage to get into PC due to not yet having proto and not really having a name as a Logissault anyway should this happen I will no longer be rewarded ISK as I am not going to get to play PC anytime soon and I'd be banned from pubs leaving me with only FW and while I have no problem with throwing away 1m ISK suits for the state there is a problem. I will eventually run out due to no way to make it back. I'd go from nice amount of wealth to dirt poor. I don't want to support this idea when protostomps have moved to FW... namely the Caldari getting proto stomped by Gallente (FA,ML,SHITETON OF other corps) *"There is only one thing I regret, that is only giving one life to my state." - Viktor Revon*
Sclompton Face-Smasher uptown456 148	Posted - 2014.11.19 10:00:00 - [49] - Quote sir RAVEN WING wrote: Hey, working on my proto assault and I have to say... I hate the idea of banning Protos from public because they are not much of a problem anymore. Besides I play with a squad in pubs, should that mean I get banned from pubs? surely anyone saying that must be joking. I've never had the luck to manage to get into PC due to not yet having proto and not really having a name as a Logissault anyway should this happen I will no longer be rewarded ISK as I am not going to get to play PC anytime soon and I'd be banned from pubs leaving me with only FW and while I have no problem with throwing away 1m ISK suits for the state there is a problem. I will eventually run out due to no way to make it back. I'd go from nice amount of wealth to dirt poor. I don't want to support this idea when protostomps have moved to FW... namely the Caldari getting proto stomped by Gallente (FA,ML,SHITETON OF other corps) While later comments have moved towards removing Proto from pub through either misconceptions or suggestion of Adv best, Mlt worst or Std best, Mlt worst I believe the initial suggestion was a Mu cap which have a trade off on proto use instead of a complete removal of proto suits all together. Tell me if i'm wrong there. While I generally doubt myself on my own opinion for fear of being truly wrong on a situation or argument or, stupidity winning further ruining said game, I will say MU, while I don't completely understand it, seems to be a less crippling option than removing use of proto suits from pubs which is the only other way to make in-game money. Though I will say, well ask, is it all that bad to not allow proto in pubs? When, if your actually good, it shouldn't matter what you you wear to make money through kills and WP since everyone is a hypocrite and abuses game mechanics one way or another; be it on purpose or accident or through the next or recent nerf/buff in which CCP can't seem to get right. Next question is DID you plan on running full proto in pub matches as soon as you got your proto assault? If so in a squad to further damage morale or solo? Corps aside I know the constant argument is lag is a b**** in PC (only been in one) and CCP should be furthering improvement on that rather than keep up the train nerf/buff in bulks which always history wise, leads up to another. Can go on and on about role using, range specifications, counters and blah blah blah but you got my point at least right? Playstyle: Scout~Passionate In-bred Sniper~Support~Enemy finder Weapon: Pro SG~SR~SMG~NK~ScR
OliX PRZESMIEWCA Bezimienni... Dark Taboo 205	Posted - 2014.11.19 11:45:00 - [50] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Whats OP is teamwork. For pubs, restrict a squad to 3. Solved /end thread Sound of reason guys.

Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 995	Posted - 2014.11.19 11:48:00 - [51] - Quote B-F M wrote: Syeven Reed wrote: Small change. Only proto suits, not proto everything. Not weapons? When you would be giving up that much playability, having a prototype weapon on a standard suit is just free ISK. Way to easily killed :) SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial
jpmannu Maphia Clan Corporation 68	Posted - 2014.11.19 11:55:00 - [52] - Quote B-F M wrote: Let's define the problem first: a team that has a squad or (synced) squads running full-proto gear results in terrible experiences for players on the opposing team. This problem comprises two isues: Squads vs solo players Proto gear vs lower-tier gear I'd like to discuss the second issue here - the first issue is clearly important to players and should have its own thread. Remove full-proto fits from pubs, because they are by definition OP; because everyone hates being protostomped; and because maxed out fits belong only in FW and PC. The reality of players running full-proto (and especially, squads of proto) in pub matches is just an incredibly poor experience for both sides. The winning side has an utterly hollow victory. The losing side faces a blob of almost indestructible strafe-machines and are forced to decide between: Bring out your own expensive gear and settle in for an expensive, PC-like battle Stay in the same gear and take the beating Who wants to lose around a million ISK in a pub just because they didn't want to throw in the towel again? It would be like a multiplayer racing game where every 3rd or 4th match your team of Prius, Mini and Camry drivers went up against Team Ferrari and were expected to compete. We can all agree that would be a stupid, unbalanced and ultimately pointless event. So why does Dust allow the exact same thing?* We talk about balance - CCP, CPM and the community pore over the numbers in minute detail, comparing like for like (i.e., basic CR vs basic AR) which is reasonable - except what about basic AR vs Kaalikiota RR? Is that balanced? Because that is the scenario that actually happens, very often, in pubs. Proposal Display the Total Meta Level (sum total of suit, weapon, equipment meta level) in the fittings view, and introduce a Meta Level Cap in public contract battles to eliminate full-proto fittings. Proto would still be allowed, just with some trade-offs. Is there a strong reason why this would be a bad idea? There are countless "Protostomping is bullshit" threads on here, this seems like an reasonable solution. *Well, with the exception of hardcore scrubs who actually enjoy winning with a grossly unfair advantage - but we should ignore those guys because they shouldn't be the customers who are primarily catered to, however vocal they may be. nonsense
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance 242	Posted - 2014.11.19 12:26:00 - [53] - Quote squads are OP, lmao xD it should motivate people to get into a corperation and squad up via the team menu. Its like saying you have a problem but you dont want to fix it, though you have the means to do so. secondly there, I'd taken down proto heavies in my straight blueprint, militia weapon weilding heavy. Kinda the reason you dish out all that isk for a proto suit, their 150-200k suit should have an advantage over your 6-50k suit ._. A full squad of milita gear can dominate a match against proto stompers, make some friends . If you can't, then live with the side effects of being a douche. And you know what? I put in the time and cheap gear so i can run that proto, let me tell you that you gotta ride a bike when you have worked hard for that sports car. I'll take the bike when Im outa gas though ;) G.L.O.R.Y solider, Heavy, Assault, Logi... I got what you need yo ;D
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2515	Posted - 2014.11.19 12:33:00 - [54] - Quote While I don't disagree with the OP specifically and actually have thought about this sort of thing before.... Lets not skip over the facts here. The matchmaker still has a LONG way to go. It is STILL putting full squads and small squads against solo NPC corp players on a regular basis. Yes I would like to see some sort of limits or gear grade restrictions possibly but right now there is STILL a lot that can be done with the matchmaker. Hell if the proto squads always had to go up against each other instead of being all planted on the same team.....that would be a good start. When you do get a balanced game DUST514 is an absolute ton of fun. when its a total wipeout stomping, I am not sure that either side has as much fun. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
B-F M Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 65	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:54:00 - [55] - Quote Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote: I believe the initial suggestion was a Mu cap which have a trade off on proto use instead of a complete removal of proto suits all together. Tell me if i'm wrong there. Close, but I was suggesting using the Meta level, not Mu. Proposal Display the Total Meta Level (sum total of suit, weapon, equipment meta level) in the fittings view, and introduce a Meta Level Cap in public contract battles to eliminate full-proto fittings. Proto would still be allowed, just with some trade-offs. So each piece of gear already has a Meta level (I think 1-8), which would get added up as you make your fitting. Example: Item (Meta) PRO commando (7) PRO armor plates (4) PRO armor plates (4) STD nanite injector (1) PRO combat rifle (8) PRO swarms (8) PRO damage mod (4) PRO damage mod (4) TOTAL (40) Now, say pub matches have a Total Meta Level restriction of like 25 or 30 for example.. the player would need to replace some of that PRO with MLT/STD/ADV. I proposed this as an alternative to simply banning any fitting with any proto on it because individual weapons, modules or equipment aren't a problem, and as Breakin Stuff pointed out, would actually break things like AV vs Vehicle balancing. Using a Total Meta Level restriction would still allow players to run, say, an ADV logi with a PRO rep tool; ADV commando w/ PRO swarms etc. GöÇGòñGòªn++ Ghosts of Dawn // now recruiting. n++GòªGòñGöÇ
Bax Zanith Sinfonia1898 224	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:03:00 - [56] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: protostomping is a verygood reason we have so many heavies now. the cows r tired of getting butchered. It doesn't matter what the cows think, the cows are only a food source. The only point of a cow's life is to be slaughtered. try as they might, a thicker hide won't save them from their fate. "You're either the cow or the butcher."
Sclompton Face-Smasher uptown456 150	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:06:00 - [57] - Quote B-F M wrote: Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote: I believe the initial suggestion was a Mu cap which have a trade off on proto use instead of a complete removal of proto suits all together. Tell me if i'm wrong there. Close, but I was suggesting using the Meta level, not Mu. Proposal Display the Total Meta Level (sum total of suit, weapon, equipment meta level) in the fittings view, and introduce a Meta Level Cap in public contract battles to eliminate full-proto fittings. Proto would still be allowed, just with some trade-offs. So each piece of gear already has a Meta level (I think 1-8), which would get added up as you make your fitting. Example: Item (Meta) PRO commando (7) PRO armor plates (4) PRO armor plates (4) STD nanite injector (1) PRO combat rifle (8) PRO swarms (8) PRO damage mod (4) PRO damage mod (4) TOTAL (40) Now, say pub matches have a Total Meta Level restriction of like 25 or 30 for example.. the player would need to replace some of that PRO with MLT/STD/ADV. I proposed this as an alternative to simply banning any fitting with any proto on it because individual weapons, modules or equipment aren't a problem, and as Breakin Stuff pointed out, would actually break things like AV vs Vehicle balancing. Using a Total Meta Level restriction would still allow players to run, say, an ADV logi with a PRO rep tool; ADV commando w/ PRO swarms etc. Right it was meta level thanks for the correction and with said example I think 30 is decent though we would have to see a lot of varible fits before stating a specific level to fit all suits. Playstyle: Scout~Passionate In-bred Sniper~Support~Enemy finder Weapon: Pro SG~SR~SMG~NK~ScR
Sclompton Face-Smasher uptown456 150	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:08:00 - [58] - Quote Bax Zanith wrote: CLONE117 wrote: protostomping is a verygood reason we have so many heavies now. the cows r tired of getting butchered. It doesn't matter what the cows think, the cows are only a food source. The only point of a cow's life is to be slaughtered. try as they might, a thicker hide won't save them from their fate. Word. But what about a bull though? Playstyle: Scout~Passionate In-bred Sniper~Support~Enemy finder Weapon: Pro SG~SR~SMG~NK~ScR
Bax Zanith Sinfonia1898 225	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:18:00 - [59] - Quote Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote: Bax Zanith wrote: CLONE117 wrote: protostomping is a verygood reason we have so many heavies now. the cows r tired of getting butchered. It doesn't matter what the cows think, the cows are only a food source. The only point of a cow's life is to be slaughtered. try as they might, a thicker hide won't save them from their fate. Word. But what about a bull though? The bulls are slaughtered all the same, the only difference is that they push around the other cows first. "You're either the cow or the butcher."
Sclompton Face-Smasher uptown456 150	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:20:00 - [60] - Quote Bax Zanith wrote: Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote: Bax Zanith wrote: CLONE117 wrote: protostomping is a verygood reason we have so many heavies now. the cows r tired of getting butchered. It doesn't matter what the cows think, the cows are only a food source. The only point of a cow's life is to be slaughtered. try as they might, a thicker hide won't save them from their fate. Word. But what about a bull though? The bulls are slaughtered all the same, the only difference is that they push around the other cows first. What about a dragon? Playstyle: Scout~Passionate In-bred Sniper~Support~Enemy finder Weapon: Pro SG~SR~SMG~NK~ScR

Bax Zanith Sinfonia1898 225	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:29:00 - [61] - Quote Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote: Bax Zanith wrote: Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote: Bax Zanith wrote: CLONE117 wrote: protostomping is a verygood reason we have so many heavies now. the cows r tired of getting butchered. It doesn't matter what the cows think, the cows are only a food source. The only point of a cow's life is to be slaughtered. try as they might, a thicker hide won't save them from their fate. Word. But what about a bull though? The bulls are slaughtered all the same, the only difference is that they push around the other cows first. What about a dragon? face palm Their isn't a dragon in this metaphor, unless you change protostompers from "butcher" to "dragon" witch really doesn't make to much sense. "Your either the cow or the dragon." That really doesn't have the same implication as "your either the cow or the butcher." "You're either the cow or the butcher."
Summa Militum Hidd3n Dragon 42	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:30:00 - [62] - Quote If the problem is with squads of Protos running around and slaughtering people then you need to address the squads and not try to limit the individual. I only play Public Matches and I have never played with a squad (I go solo all the way). I think it is highly unfair to limit what I am able to do in this game because you get teamed up on by organized squads.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 87	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:32:00 - [63] - Quote To account for varying EQ / Module slots, meta should be adjusted to suit class. Scouts and heavies would otherwise be at opposite sides of the advantage table. If / when I get a few moments free I'll see about throwing some numbers on a spreadsheet.
Sclompton Face-Smasher uptown456 150	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:34:00 - [64] - Quote Bax Zanith wrote: Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote: What about a dragon? face palm Their isn't a dragon in this metaphor, unless you change protostompers from "butcher" to "dragon" witch really doesn't make to much sense. "Your either the cow or the dragon." That really doesn't have the same implication as "your either the cow or the butcher." But I want wings with my horns!! and to configure your metaphor; "your either the dragon or the slayer" which bolds well with the majority of dusters Playstyle: Scout~Passionate In-bred Sniper~Support~Enemy finder Weapon: Pro SG~SR~SMG~NK~ScR
Bax Zanith Sinfonia1898 225	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:39:00 - [65] - Quote Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote: Bax Zanith wrote: Sclompton Face-Smasher wrote: What about a dragon? face palm Their isn't a dragon in this metaphor, unless you change protostompers from "butcher" to "dragon" witch really doesn't make to much sense. "Your either the cow or the dragon." That really doesn't have the same implication as "your either the cow or the butcher." But I want wings with my horns!! and to configure your metaphor; "your either the dragon or the slayer" which bolds well with the majority of dusters But then that would imply there's such a thing as heros. And we all know what happens to people who try to leave the red line. "You're either the cow or the butcher."
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 3455	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:59:00 - [66] - Quote Proto has little to do with the stomping......it is the talent + squads - stupid bluedots. You can use a $20K heavy suit and wreck all proto gear in any class. You can use a beefed up adv suit in any class and compete with proto suits. It isn't god mode (maybe in closed beta but not now). > Check RND out here
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 88	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:14:00 - [67] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Proto has little to do with the stomping......it is the talent + squads - stupid bluedots. You can use a $20K heavy suit and wreck all proto gear in any class. You can use a beefed up adv suit in any class and compete with proto suits. It isn't god mode (maybe in closed beta but not now). Great! Then there should be little to no complaints about limiting the higher tiered gear used in pubs.
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 746	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:48:00 - [68] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Proto has little to do with the stomping......it is the talent + squads - stupid bluedots. You can use a $20K heavy suit and wreck all proto gear in any class. You can use a beefed up adv suit in any class and compete with proto suits. It isn't god mode (maybe in closed beta but not now). Great! Then there should be little to no complaints about limiting the higher tiered gear used in pubs. A useless request that doesn't address the issues players are experiencing only muddles the conversation regarding what is actually happening in pub matches. That's enough grounds to terminate this terrible idea. Following this logic, It'll be "proto stomping" this month, and "advanced stomping" next month, then "standard stomping", while never addressing the actual issues. People are bad at this game, and matchmaking should put them up against people within their skill range(most of the time) regardless of what suit they have.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 91	Posted - 2014.11.20 02:38:00 - [69] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Kensai Dragon wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Proto has little to do with the stomping......it is the talent + squads - stupid bluedots. You can use a $20K heavy suit and wreck all proto gear in any class. You can use a beefed up adv suit in any class and compete with proto suits. It isn't god mode (maybe in closed beta but not now). Great! Then there should be little to no complaints about limiting the higher tiered gear used in pubs. A useless request that doesn't address the issues players are experiencing only muddles the conversation regarding what is actually happening in pub matches. That's enough grounds to terminate this terrible idea. Following this logic, It'll be "proto stomping" this month, and "advanced stomping" next month, then "standard stomping", while never addressing the actual issues. People are bad at this game, and matchmaking should put them up against people within their skill range(most of the time) regardless of what suit they have. Wrong. Keeping people within a given skill range is nullified by me having vastly superior equipment. Even more so if I start out with superior skill, both SP and 'gun-game'. Squads should always be encouraged, for the simple reason of strength in numbers. I understand that it can be difficult to find a decent group to squad up with and some people are determined to run solo, but it should definitely be encouraged. Particularly for newer members. Squad OP is part of the original intent of this game. The 'actual issue' here is that post-academy there really is no place to go to continue growing with this game other than being 'the cow'.
Niuvo Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 1030	Posted - 2014.11.20 04:16:00 - [70] - Quote yup this needs to change. Eliminating proto fits in pubs will help this game A LOT. I was thinking separating matches from Basic fit, and ADV fit ambush, skirm, and dom. respectively. bsc vs bsc adv vs adv have FW be proto only?? or adv and higher? That way you fight where you belong



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