You're right about the 'tryhard' squads, or veteran squads, or whatever label we're attaching to them. I think you're confusing those of us who are trying to balance the game with those who are QQing about losing. Many of you can, and do, gank me with MLT gear. The issue is trying to take out a proto-armor-tanked anything while trying to figure out the game. You know why blueberries are hanging out in the redline shooting each other? It's because that's the only time they can line up a shot for more than half a second without getting instablapped. They're still trying to figure this game out, lol.

Pubs should be the next step up from Academy, a step down from FW. Pubs should not be simply FW with ISK.

I'll say it again. Squadding up should be encouraged. Proto in pubs is entirely unnecessary and should be discouraged.

So me the lonewolf should be punished the same as a squad?

My signature explains public matches perfectly well. Unless your protostomping, then the only useful thing you really can do is put on a starter fit, run out in the middle of the map and wait for someone to one shot you. Then do it over and over again until the end of the "match", because unless you have a full proto suit, your worthless. Your only there to pad the KDRs of vetteren players, that's the only role you serve in this game if you don't protostomp. That's how it is, and I sadly don't ever see it changing.
Your either the cow or the butcher.

The NPE is solvable by a longer/better battle academy. It's pitifully short currently, making it 5-10 times longer would help greatly.

Blueberries sitting in the redline can be helped by actually rewarding people for their performance in public contracts. Blueberries in FW try their best because the LP payout is MUCH higher when you win. Losing a public contract is still money in the bank, so why try?

If you're upset about getting instablapped, now you're talking about nerfing the rifles and HMG about 30% across the board, or getting rid of aim assist.

Removing Proto from pubs will not really help those issues, and will just result in people complaining about "Advanced Stomping".

Honestly, I'm not seeing why someone would be opposed to a meta level cap. If you're good, you're still good. If you're bad, you can at least have a chance. I'm not advocating an 'easy mode', or asking you to not try hard. Just looking for a progression that makes sense.

How would either you or squads be punished? Please elaborate.

I feel like for all the disagreement in this thread - although a lot of that is more general comments about squads/qsyncing, team balancing, obligatory git guds, etc - if CCP were to actually roll out a meta level cap for pubs, the majority of players would welcome the change.

Just some quick numbers to illustrate what I'm trying to say. These are clearly not the best setups for a suit, just throwing numbers out for example.

Standard AR = 453.2 dps vs shield, 370.8 dps vs armor

Duvolle AR = 498.5 dps / shield, 407.9 dps vs armor (chosen for no Prof. requirement)

Standard brick tanked Gal Med with basic shield and armor = 230.1 shield, 624.3 armor, total 854.3 eHP

Proto Gal Assault with 3x Complex Shield, 2x Complex Armor, 3x Enhanced Armor = 411.6 shield, 1003.8 Armor, total 1415.3 eHP


Standard vs Proto TTK ~= 3.6 seconds

Proto vs Standard TTK ~= 2 seconds

Not only does the newberry have less experience, he also has to shoot you for almost twice as long to get the kill.

If someone kills your protosuit while running MLT/Standard gear, that's really saying something. If you kill a MLT/Standard while running Proto gear, well, congratulations I guess...

that math is assuming every bullet hits

Hey, working on my proto assault and I have to say...
I hate the idea of banning Protos from public because they are not much of a problem anymore.
Besides I play with a squad in pubs, should that mean I get banned from pubs? surely anyone saying that must be joking.
I've never had the luck to manage to get into PC due to not yet having proto and not really having a name as a Logissault
anyway should this happen I will no longer be rewarded ISK as I am not going to get to play PC anytime soon and I'd be banned from pubs leaving me with only FW and while I have no problem with throwing away 1m ISK suits for the state there is a problem. I will eventually run out due to no way to make it back. I'd go from nice amount of wealth to dirt poor.
I don't want to support this idea when protostomps have moved to FW... namely the Caldari getting proto stomped by Gallente (FA,ML,SHITETON OF other corps)

Whats OP is teamwork. For pubs, restrict a squad to 3.

Solved

/end thread

Not weapons?

Let's define the problem first: a team that has a squad or (synced) squads running full-proto gear results in terrible experiences for players on the opposing team.

This problem comprises two isues:

1. Squads vs solo players
2. Proto gear vs lower-tier gear

I'd like to discuss the second issue here - the first issue is clearly important to players and should have its own thread.

Remove full-proto fits from pubs, because they are by definition OP; because everyone hates being protostomped; and because maxed out fits belong only in FW and PC.

The reality of players running full-proto (and especially, squads of proto) in pub matches is just an incredibly poor experience for both sides*.

The winning side has an utterly hollow victory.
The losing side faces a blob of almost indestructible strafe-machines and are forced to decide between:

• Bring out your own expensive gear and settle in for an expensive, PC-like battle
• Stay in the same gear and take the beating

Who wants to lose around a million ISK in a pub just because they didn't want to throw in the towel again?

It would be like a multiplayer racing game where every 3rd or 4th match your team of Prius, Mini and Camry drivers went up against Team Ferrari and were expected to compete. We can all agree that would be a stupid, unbalanced and ultimately pointless event.

So why does Dust allow the exact same thing?

We talk about balance - CCP, CPM and the community pore over the numbers in minute detail, comparing like for like (i.e., basic CR vs basic AR) which is reasonable - except what about basic AR vs Kaalikiota RR? Is that balanced?

Because that is the scenario that actually happens, very often, in pubs.

---

Proposal
Display the Total Meta Level (sum total of suit, weapon, equipment meta level) in the fittings view, and introduce a Meta Level Cap in public contract battles to eliminate full-proto fittings. Proto would still be allowed, just with some trade-offs.

---

Is there a strong reason why this would be a bad idea?

There are countless "Protostomping is bullshit" threads on here, this seems like an reasonable solution.



*Well, with the exception of hardcore scrubs who actually enjoy winning with a grossly unfair advantage - but we should ignore those guys because they shouldn't be the customers who are primarily catered to, however vocal they may be.

I believe the initial suggestion was a Mu cap which have a trade off on proto use instead of a complete removal of proto suits all together. Tell me if i'm wrong there.

protostomping is a verygood reason we have so many heavies now.



the cows r tired of getting butchered.

Close, but I was suggesting using the Meta level, not Mu.

Proposal
Display the Total Meta Level (sum total of suit, weapon, equipment meta level) in the fittings view, and introduce a Meta Level Cap in public contract battles to eliminate full-proto fittings. Proto would still be allowed, just with some trade-offs.


So each piece of gear already has a Meta level (I think 1-8), which would get added up as you make your fitting.


Example:

Item (Meta)
PRO commando (7)
PRO armor plates (4)
PRO armor plates (4)
STD nanite injector (1)
PRO combat rifle (8)
PRO swarms (8)
PRO damage mod (4)
PRO damage mod (4)

TOTAL (40)


Now, say pub matches have a Total Meta Level restriction of like 25 or 30 for example.. the player would need to replace some of that PRO with MLT/STD/ADV.

I proposed this as an alternative to simply banning any fitting with any proto on it because individual weapons, modules or equipment aren't a problem, and as Breakin Stuff pointed out, would actually break things like AV vs Vehicle balancing.


Using a Total Meta Level restriction would still allow players to run, say, an ADV logi with a PRO rep tool; ADV commando w/ PRO swarms etc.

It doesn't matter what the cows think, the cows are only a food source. The only point of a cow's life is to be slaughtered. try as they might, a thicker hide won't save them from their fate.

Word.


But what about a bull though?

The bulls are slaughtered all the same, the only difference is that they push around the other cows first.